PRE-Tribulation Rapture Debate between Derek Walker and Michael Brown - Part 1

my name is steve alt and i'll be

moderating today's debate between pastor

walker and dr brown

the subject

of the debate today is the rapture

and the question is does the bible teach

a pre-tribulation rapture

as long as the church has been in

existence christians have been

fascinated with the concept of the

rapture

the clear two clearest statements about

the coming rapture are found in first

thessalonians 4 14-18

and first corinthians 15 verses 51

through 52

which i will now quote from the new

international version

first thessalonians 4 14-18 says for if

we believe that jesus died and rose

again

even so god will bring with him those

who have fallen asleep in jesus for this

we say to you by the word of the lord

that we who are alive and remain unto

the coming of the lord will not precede

those who have fallen asleep for the

lord himself will descend from heaven

with a shout with the voice of the

archangel and with the trumpet of god

and the dead in christ will rise first

then we who are alive and remain will be

caught up together with them in the

clouds to meet the lord in the air and

so we shall always be with the lord

therefore comfort one another with these

words

and first corinthians 15 51-52

behold i tell you a mystery we will not

all sleep but we will all be changed in

a moment in the twinkling of an eye at

the last trumpet for the trumpet will

sound and the dead will be raised

imperishable and we will be changed

now both the debaters have agreed that

we will be caught up to meet the lord in

the air that we will be changed but the

question is when will it happen

will the lord meet us in the air and

turn around and take us to heaven for at

least seven years

or will we meet him in the air and then

escort him back to earth where he sets

up his kingdom

that is the subject of today's debate

pastor derek walker will be taking the

pre-tribulation position and dr michael

brown will take the post-tribulation

position there will be 20-minute opening

presentations by each presenter so

please allow me to introduce our two

speakers first is

pastor derek walker who is the senior

pastor of oxford bible church in oxford

united kingdom where he pioneered this

work with his wife hillary in 1991.

he's a bible teacher with a weekly

broadcast of on god tv revelation tv tbn

russia el shaddai in ethiopia and

lighthouse tv in uganda he has authored

18 books including a few on bible

prophecy and bible chronology he also

leads regular trips to israel relating

the bible to its setting derek has an

m.a in mathematics from oxford

university he and his wife hillary have

been married for 33 years

dr michael brown is the founder and

president of ask dr brown ministries and

fire school of ministry in concord north

carolina he is the host of the daily

nationally syndicated talk show the line

of fire where he serves as your voice of

moral cultural and spiritual revolution

he also hosts tv on god tv middle east

tv

metv and nrb tv he's the author of more

than 40 books including not afraid of

the antichrist why we don't believe in a

pre-tribulation rapture which he

co-authored with dr craig keener

he holds a phd in near eastern languages

and literatures from new york university

and has served as a visiting or adjunct

professor at seven leading universities

he's widely recognized as today's

foremost messianic jewish apologist

now the question for our debate today is

does the bible teach a pre-tribulation

rapture pastor walker answers yes to

this question and he will be the first

one to make his presentation

pastor walker you have 20 minutes and

you may begin now

thank you steve

i'd like to thank dr brown for being

willing to debate with me today i hold

him in the highest esteem and it's an

honor to be part of this event i'd also

like to thank his ministry for hosting

it

in presenting the case for the pre-trib

rapture i first want to focus on its

purpose in the divine plan

it's not just about our physical change

but it's the exciting climactic moment

in the divine romance where christ our

bridegroom comes to fetch his bride so

that we might be married fully united

together forever

god designed the jewish marriage customs

to be a picture of the divine romance

having chosen his bride from eternity

um christ came to earth to demonstrate

his love by dying for us paying the

bride price with his blood and then by

the gospel he declares his everlasting

love offering us an eternal covenant

when we receive christ we betrothed to

him and the betrothal was sealed by the

couple drinking from the same cup

signifying their hearts and lives when

now was won

then the man told

the woman that he must now return to his

father's house to make all necessary

preparations for their wedding and

future life together such as building a

place for them to live he assured her

that he'd surely returned to her for her

and then they'd be together forever

that's exactly what we see at the last

supper when jesus

offered the cup to his disciples

representing the church saying this is

the new covenant in my blood drink from

it all of you

then soon after the meal our bridegroom

gave these tender words of assurance in

john 14. he said in my father's house in

many places many dwelling places i go to

prepare a place for you and if i go and

prepare a place for you i'll come again

and receive you to myself but where i am

you there you may be also

this is the promise of the rapture he

declared that he'd soon return to his

father's house heaven to prepare a place

for us which he fulfilled in his

ascension but he also also promised to

return from heaven to receive us to

himself so we'd be with him forever

this is his promise to return for his

bride and take her with him to heaven

otherwise his promise to prepare

dwelling places in heaven would be

meaningless

once the groom made this promise and

departed to his father's house there'd

be a time of physical separation during

which both bride and groom would keep

their hearts pure looking forward with

joyful anticipation to their reunion

when all their dreams would be fulfilled

when the great moment came when his

father gave the signal for the wedding

to go ahead the sun would go in joyful

procession to fetch his bride meanwhile

the bride who didn't know exactly when

her broom would come for her would

eagerly look for his coming hoping each

day would be the great day she'd prepare

a wedding dress in which she'd be

presented to him and the bible speaks of

this being our righteous deeds for

christ

this is a picture of the present age of

the preparation of the bride where we're

called to live holy lives looking

forward to his return

thus the rapture is the dramatic

romantic moment when the lord himself

comes to where his bride lives and with

a shout of joy he personally lifts her

up in his arms and carries her away to

his father's house for the wedding this

isn't something he can delegate to his

angels

that's why the classic rapture passage

says the lord himself will descend from

heaven with a shout that's the

bridegroom shouting for joy back at the

father's house she'd bathe and change

into a wedding dress a picture of the

judgment seat of christ where we're

cleansed of our dead works and receive

our rewards being clothed in glory

according to our works

she's then presented to her bridegroom

as a glorious bride and becomes his wife

after which they spend some special time

together to consummate the marriage

before appearing in public again for the

marriage feast

the fact jesus comes especially for his

bride to take her to heaven agrees

perfectly with the pre-trib rapture but

there's no room for it in the post-trib

scenario where they both have to

immediately return to battlefield earth

in fact much of the meaning and romance

of the rapture is lost because there's

no time for that since there's so many

other things that have to be done on

that day

revelation 19 confirms the pre-trib

scenario for there we see the glorious

bride already in heaven before the

second coming only now she's his wife

verse 7 let's be glad and rejoice and

give him glory for the marriage of the

lamb has come has happened and his wife

has made herself ready and to her it was

granted to be a raid in fine linen clean

and bright for the fine linen is the

righteous acts of the saints

and then the marriage supper is

announced which is about to take place

on earth

then this same bride who's been

identified just been identified by her

fine linen clean and bright is seen as

returning to earth

in with christ in verse 14 because it

says the armies in heaven clothed in

fine linen white and clean followed him

on white horses therefore the rapture of

the bride must have taken place sometime

well before the second coming and

revelation 4 tells us exactly when this

happens

john's called up to heaven by a voice

like a trumpet saying come up here and

i'll show you things which must take

place after this

clearly he's about to be shown a future

time and the following chapters make it

clear it's the tribulation

in heaven just before the tribulation in

verse 4 he sees 24 elders sitting on 24

thrones clothed in white robes with

crowns of gold on their head

now whenever the term elder is used in

the bible elsewhere it refers to men

who by reason of their maturity are

leaders in fact it's a standard term for

church leaders they're identified also

by thrones white robes and crowns which

are the very things promised to the

overcomers of the church age in the

previous chapter chapter three and these

they must have received at the judgment

seat of christ so these are the church

that's already been raptured

also elders is hardly an appropriate

name for angels because they're all the

same age

so at the start of the tribulation the

church is already in heaven represented

by the 24 elders as confirmed by their

song to christ in

chapter 5 verse 9 you are worthy to take

the scroll and open its seals for you

were slain and have redeemed us to god

by your blood out of every tribe tongue

people and nations so it seems that they

represent the whole church from every

nation

now there is a manuscript issue in this

verse

where should it be translated redeemed

us or redeemed them

and there's a similar issue in verse 10

as well

but the evidence in verse 4 verse 9 is

very much in favor of redeemed us

in fact 23 out of 24 of the 24

manuscripts say us

and the only exception is alexandrinus

and in that case the word is missing

altogether doesn't say them it just says

nothing

even the oldest manuscript sinaiticus

and the other primary manuscript says

says us

so if we follow the manuscript evidence

for verse 9 these 24 elders sing you

have redeemed us to god by your blood

out of every tribe tongue people and

nation and this proves that the church

is already in heaven at the start of the

tribulation

now the action in heaven in chapter 5

centers on the scroll with seven seals

the title deed of the earth and how the

lamb alone is worthy to open it to prove

his right to take possession of the

earth and judge all who rebel against

his rule

and then in revelation 6 he opens the

first six seals releasing judgments on

the earth this proves that the whole

tribulation is a time of divine judgment

which is why a better name for it really

is the day of the lord

the judgments are unfolded through seven

seals seven trumpets and seven bowls of

wrath all initiated from heaven

god's wrath doesn't start with the bowls

of wrath because we're told that in them

the wrath of god is completed

following the breaking of the seals we

see antichrist going forth to conquer

followed by world war worldwide famines

pestilences persecutions massive

disturbances of nature earthquakes and

so on and these closely match the birth

pains that jesus described as marking

the end of the age

now the fact that christ is now moving

in judgment mode is seen by the fact

that he's no longer seated but he is now

standing revelation 5 6 says in the

midst of the throne stood a lamb

and he came and took the scroll out of

the right hand of the father

in psalm 110 the father tells the son to

sit at his right hand until it's time

for him to subdue his enemies under foot

so the time for judgment has now come

and it will continue until its climax at

the great and awesome or literally

manifest day of the lord that's his

second coming

as his bride

we should have great confidence that he

will come to deliver us before this time

of worldwide wrath

first of all we have his promise in 1

thessalonians 1 10 where believers are

described as those who wait for his son

from heaven whom he raised from the dead

even jesus who delivers or rescues us

from the wrath to come

this wrath must certainly include the

wrath of the day of the lord or

tribulation

in fact this must be the wrath in view

because our deliverance from this coming

wrath is directly connected to his

return for us

and this promise is then confirmed later

in 1 thessalonians 5 verse 9 god did not

appoint us to wrath

but to obtain salvation through our lord

jesus christ

the context tells us that this is the

wrath of the day of the lord and that

the salvation we receive instead of the

wrath is the completion of our salvation

at the rapture

a third promise is revelation 3 verse 10

which says because you have kept my

command to persevere i also will keep

you from the hour of trial which shall

come upon the whole world to test those

who dwell on the earth

as in all new testament letters the

promises are to the whole church as

christ says in verse 13 he who as an ear

let him hear what the spirit says to the

churches

this worldwide time of trial can only be

the tribulation which is the main

subject of the following chapters of

revelation the key point here is that

christ didn't just say he'd keep us from

the trial he's but from the hour of

trial from the very time period itself

that's the plain meaning even if one

ignores that fact the promise is more

general than just keeping us from the

wrath of god during the tribulation it

says we'd be protected from this

worldwide trial which includes the wrath

of man and satan

but this is manifestly not true

concerning the tribulation saints

because they are killed in great numbers

by the antichrist

now having given the promise the next

verse says christ will accomplish it by

the rapture because it says behold i'm

coming quickly

after all if this time of trial is

worldwide and it will come upon all who

live on the earth the only way to be

kept from it is to be removed from the

earth and surely a loving and powerful

bridegroom before he bombards his wife's

bride's dwelling place he would extract

her before releasing his wrath

i want to emphasize that the reason i

believe in a pre-trib rapture is not to

escape the tribulation and persecution

of the antichrist

if the tribulation was just like the

church age but with a bit of extra

persecution as some imagine it that

would be one thing but if we take

revelation literally it will be a time

period utterly unlike anything before

for it won't just be a time when evil

comes to its fullness but a time of ever

increasing divine wrath leading up to

the second coming and we're not

appointed to wrath

christ also reveals the rapture in the

olivet discourse in matthew 24. his

disciples essentially ask him three

questions and his talk is built around

answering them they say tell us when

will these things be and what will be

the sign of your coming and of the end

of the age

now the end or santelia of the age isn't

the same thing as his second coming

which is the telos or the final end

the end of the age is its closing period

really the consummation of the age in

other words the tribulation called by

the jews the birth pains of messiah

because it's a time of tribulation

leading up to the birth of the messianic

kingdom

he answered the first question about the

temple's destruction in luke 21

the second question asks for the sign of

his coming

though they asked for a sign he actually

gives a number of signs leading up to

his second coming

first he describes the beginning of the

tribulation which he describes as a

bidding of birth pains now matthew 24 7

nation will rise against nation kingdom

against kingdom there'll be famines

pestilences earthquakes in various

places just like the seals

all these are the beginning of birth

pains jesus now paul

building on the teaching of jesus refers

to these labor pains in 1 thessalonians

5 he says the day of the lord so comes

as a thief in the night for when they

say peace and safety then sudden

destruction or ruin comes upon them as

labour pains upon a pregnant woman and

they shall not escape

here paul describes the judgments of the

day of the lord beginning suddenly in

the world like labor pains that will

continue and intensify until the end

then jesus references daniel's 70th week

which is yet to be fulfilled which

describes the last seven years before

the second coming predicting that the

antichrist will make a covenant with

israel for seven years but halfway

through he'll break it and desecrate the

temple with the abomination of

desolation in the context of giving the

countdown to his coming he names this as

a major sign in verse 15. he says when

you see the abomination of desolation

spoken of by daniel the prophet standing

in the holy place then let those in

judea flee to the mountains and then the

narrative continues and then he says

verse 21 for then there'll be great

tribulation such as not been seen since

the found foundation of the world until

this time nor no nor shall ever be

and uh he's not talking about events in

the first century because as terrible as

they were they weren't the worst the

world has ever seen in fact the next

verse says unless those days were

shortened no flesh would be saved

notice jesus talk could cause the second

half of daniel's 70th week the great

tribulation which is three and a half

years and this end time marker is

confirmed by daniel 12 11 but gives the

exact time to the very end to the very

day

he says from the time the daily

sacrifice is taken away and the

abomination of desolation is set up they

will be

1290 days

and then finally jesus described the

cosmic signs at the end of the

tribulation that will herald his coming

in power and glory so up to now it would

seem he'd answered the second question

about the sign of his coming but they'd

also asked about the sign of the end of

the age which is a different though

closely related issue

what signs in other words herald the

tribulation how can we know when it's

close to starting we'd expect him to

address this next and he does in verse

36 he says but of that day and hour no

one knows not even the angels of heaven

but my father only

the but that begins this verse is the

translation of perry day in the greek

which is a structural marker indicating

he's now moving on to a different issue

namely when the end of the age or

tribulation will begin

in contrast to the day of the second

coming which is clearly signposted and

knowable in advance this day when the

tribulation starts is unknowable without

any signs but it's in the next few

verses that he throws something

completely new into the mix for he also

describes this day as his coming

so as well as him coming at the end of

the time of worldwide judgment he says

he will come before it begins initiating

this time of judgment and this is where

he talks about the days of noah in verse

37 he says but as the days of noah were

so also will the coming of the son of

man be for as in the days before the

flood they were eating and drinking

marrying and giving in marriage until

the day that noah entered the ark and

did not know until the flood came and

took them all away so also will the

coming of the son of man be

now the flood provides a fitting picture

of the tribulation because that's the

only other example in history of a

worldwide judgment in the in that case

in the days leading up to the flood

normal life was going on without any

signs of what was about to happen and

then suddenly judgment fell and it was

too late to escape the key event

triggering this judgment that jesus

points out was noah entering the ark for

on that same day the rain began to fall

in other words just before judgment fell

there was a physical relocation of

believers to a place of safety

above the scene of judgment

even the ark a type of christ jesus said

that that's what will happen at his

coming

the final event before tribulation

judgment falls is the disappearance of

believers into christ the ark of our

salvation they'll be lifted to safety

and then the tribulation judgments will

start to fall that very same day in luke

17

connected with that jesus also compared

the day of his coming to the day of

lot's escape from sodom just before

judgment fell and so jesus is teaching

that while life is going on as normal

before the tribulation judgments start

the believers will first be evacuated

from the scene of judgment and then the

time of judgment will begin

as in the days of noah and lot he said

so will the coming of the son of man be

and this is confirmed by the next verses

verse 40 it says then on the day of his

coming two men will be in the field one

taken the other left two women grinding

at the mill one taken the other left the

word translated taken here is para

lambano me whose main meaning is

positive

to take to be with as in joseph taking

his mary to be his wife and it's the

very same word that jesus used in john

14

when he promised to come again to

receive us to himself

so jesus here speaks of an unknowable

day when he'll come to take us to be

with him just before he starts pouring

out the tribulation flood on the earth

which is different from the knowable day

when he'll return to bring these

judgments to their climax

then he emphasizes the day of his coming

which initiates the day of the lord

judgments is unknowable in other words

it could happen at any time which

motivates us to be spiritually awake and

prepared verse 42 he says watch

therefore for you do not know what hour

your lord is coming this says even

believers can't know it this is called

imminence which says god has kept the

timing of this

of the rapture secret so as far as we're

concerned he could come at any moment

as we've seen this doesn't apply to his

coming after the tribulation to

establish the kingdom christ further

emphasized the sudden unexpected

unpredictable imminent nature of the

first phase of his coming by comparing

it to the coming of a thief verse 43 but

know this if the master of the house had

known what hour the thief would come

he'd have watched and not allowed his

house to be broken into this surprising

analogy of his coming as a thief is

surely a deliberate contrast to his

coming in power and glory when he comes

to take over the house of the earth and

turn all the lights on

the purpose of a thief isn't to take

over the house or turn on its lights but

to come quickly take the valuables and

then leave quickly this perfectly

describes the rapture because christ

will come to take his precious ones and

soon enough the world will realize many

believers many millions have disappeared

and it will seem as if a thief had come

but of course he is no thief before

he'll only take what belongs to him

those he's purchased with his blood but

the world will experience this sudden

event as a thief in the night but for us

we'll experience it as the bridegroom

coming for his bride and paul used the

very same language in declaring the

tribulation will begin with the rapture

in 1 thessalonians 5 verse 2 he says the

day of the lord the tribulation so comes

as a thief in the night

the coming of christ to take us home

for when they say peace and safety then

sudden destruction comes on them as

labour pains on a pregnant woman and

they shall not escape now we're going to

have dr brown

who's going to give us his 20-minute

presentation dr brown you may start now

well thanks so much everyone for joining

us thrilled to have this opportunity to

debate and discuss this important issue

i appreciate pastor walker his evident

love for jesus his love for the word but

he's he's quite wrong categorically

wrong on this

in fact reading the bible on your own

you'd never come up with such a scenario

and there's a reason the bible never

once

speaks of our quote disappearance which

you would think would be an important

word otherwise so

we don't divide over this we are one in

jesus but during the rebuttal time we'll

go through specific misstatements and

misinterpretations of scripture which

will be very very easy to do but let me

give my own background

i came to faith in a pre-trib church at

the age of 16 and i pretty much heard

about pre-tribulation message before i

even heard the rest of the gospel so

when i got saved this was gospel truth

period and then i was in the word day

and night i read the word cover to cover

about five times the first two years i

was saved used to memorize 20 verses a

day did that for months so whereas four

thousand verses a friend came to me and

he said could you explain the difference

between the rapture and the second

coming based on matthew 24. so i started

going through it with him and realized

why i really don't know this subject

well

failing to realize the reason i didn't

know it well was because it wasn't in

the bible

so i then got all the classic

dispensational books pre-trib books the

older classics from the early 1900s the

more recent ones i mastered the system i

taught it really dogmatically and then a

friend gave me a book that that said

that the pre-trib rapture was unknown in

the early church didn't come around

until 1830 i finished the book i didn't

know if it was accurate or not but i

went back to the scriptures and what i

did i realized wait this is not in the

bible and you'll never get this just

reading the bible on your own so

what i want to do is lay out the

fundamental reasons for this i don't

believe

in a second coming followed seven years

later by a third coming of jesus i

believe in one second coming the lord's

glorious appearing his literal arrival

here on planet earth at the end of the

tribulation period there's not a stitch

a scriptural support for a secret

pre-trib rapture separate from the

actual second coming the teachings of

jesus and the apostles are against it a

mountain scriptural evidence is against

that the greek vocabulary is against it

so

let's look first at the greek vocabulary

of the second coming in paul's words in

titus 2 13 we are looking for the

blessed hope and glorious appearing of

our great god and savior jesus christ

not for a secret hidden event the

scriptures state that he will be

revealed from heaven which means that he

will be seen and we will be gathered to

meet him at his coming his paraceae

which in greek speaks of of a literal

arrival of an actual presence as in

flight 493 has now arrived as opposed to

flight 493 is flying by

and this coming of the lord takes place

after a final time of tribulation as

jesus said for as the lightning comes

from the east and flashes as far as the

west so will be the coming of the son of

man matthew 24 27 followed by

immediately after the tribulation of

those days the sun will be dark and the

moon will not shed its light the stars

will fall from the sky the powers of

heaven will be shaken then the son of

the son of man will appear in the sky

and then all the peoples of the earth

will mourn and they will see the son of

the son of man coming on the clouds of

heaven with power and great glory he

will send out his angels with a loud

trumpet and they will gather his elect

from the the four winds from one end of

the sky to the other verses 29 to 31 and

note that the same word paracea is used

by jesus just a few verses later when he

says as the days of noah were so the

coming of the son of man will be

matthew 24 37 remarkably we just heard

that these are speaking of two

completely separate events the rapture

and the second coming yet jesus uses the

exact same words in the exact same

context to describe them

so it's interesting while examining

matthew 24 and the two different greek

words used for taken pastor walker

pointed out in his book the

pre-tribulation rapture quote that if

jesus wanted to connect these two things

he would have used the same word but

when it comes to his return he does use

the same word in these verses that's

because he's not speaking of two

different events but of one second

coming not a second coming and a third

coming

the bottom line pastor walker is that if

the rapture is described as the lord's

coming

in verses like first thessalonians 4 15

and yet there is another coming seven

years later after the tribulation then

you do believe in a second coming and a

third coming there's no way around it

if someone tried to teach the pre-trib

view but use consistent biblical

vocabulary in the process it would sound

like this

we're looking forward to the coming of

jesus and the gathering of the elect to

him and then seven years later we're

looking forward to the coming of jesus

and the gathering of the elect to him

you couldn't make it any more confusing

in the same way

pre-trib teachers tell us that the greek

verb gather in matthew 24 31 speaks of

the gathering of the elect at the end of

the tribulation

at the time of the paracery of jesus but

then they tell us that in second

thessalonians chapter 2 verse 1 the

identical greek noun for the gathering

of the elect at the lord's paraceae is

speaking about the secret rapture seven

years earlier

really

jesus and paul both speak about are

being gathered to the lord at his

coming

and both in identical end time context

yet pre-tribbers must tell us that these

identical words described in the same

event are actually talking about two

different events separated by seven

years

this would be like me saying a soccer

game or for pastor walker football game

is played in two halves the first half

which is 45 minutes long then a break

followed by the first half which is 45

minutes long and at the end of the first

half the game is over in all honesty

once you press into the greek new

testament and look carefully at the

words used the pre-trip teaching becomes

just as convoluted

so if i asked your pre-trib teacher to

explain the difference between the

rapture and the second coming using the

words of jesus and paul

i would have to say are you talking

about the lord's paracea or the lord's

paraceae

or can you explain if you're referring

to the epiphania the appearing of the

lord or the epiphania of the lord

it becomes meaningless gibberish

we're not looking forward to an arrival

that doesn't arrive to an appearance

that is unseen

and to a revealing that is hidden

rather than paul's words in 2

thessalonians 1 verses 7 through 10

interestingly skipped in pastor walker's

presentation we are looking forward we

the believers are looking forward to the

day when god will give release to his

persecuted church quote at the

revelation apocalypse of the lord jesus

from heaven with his powerful angels

when he takes vengeance with flaming

fire on those who don't know god and on

those who don't obey the gospel of our

lord jesus they will pay the penalty of

eternal destruction from the lord's

presence and from his glorious strength

on that day when he comes to be

glorified by his saints and to be

marveled at by all those who have

believed because our testimony among you

was believed

note that in first corinthians 1 7 paul

says that we eagerly await the

apocalypse's revelation of our lord

jesus christ

peter uses the same word when speaking

of our future hope in first peter 1 7 13

4 13 and you hear in second

thessalonians 1 the revelation of jesus

that we're waiting for is his public

visible return and flaming fire when he

destroys the wicked that's the wrath

that we're saved from and not appointed

to

there's no possible pre-trib reading of

second thessalonians one that works we

receive relief when jesus is revealed in

flaming fire to judge the ungodly that's

when he comes to be glorified by his

saints as he appears in the sky for the

world to see an awesome glory he catches

us up to meet him and we with our

transformed bodies descend together with

our king

yeah it's wonderful

paul reiterates this in the verses that

follow writing in 2nd thessalonians 2 3

don't let anyone deceive you in any way

for that day will not come until the

apostasy comes first and the man of

lawlessness is revealed the man doomed

to destruction

ii thought

thessalonians 2 3 and i will gladly

debate the meaning of the greek word

apostasy in this context there's

absolutely no question that it speaks of

a spiritual rebellion rather than a

physical departure and know carefully

that even if you try to dispute the

meaning of the word apostasy which is

really a battle you don't want to fight

both the apostasia and the revealing of

the man of lawlessness must occur before

the lord returns for us

not also ii thessalonians 2 8

jesus will destroy the antichrist quote

with the breath of his mouth and with

will bring him to nothing at the

appearance epiphania of his coming

parasia

yet in verses like first thessalonians 4

15 and 2 thessalonians 2 1 just a few

verses earlier paul tells the

thessalonians that they will be gathered

to the lord at his paraceae which we are

told refers to the rapture yet here we

learn that jesus will destroy the

antichrist at his paracea

that's because it's one in the same

event

to repeat there's not a second and a

third coming there is one second coming

it doesn't work to say that there are

two phases to the second coming when the

identical vocabulary is used to describe

both phases and more importantly the key

words used refer to a public visible

arrival on the earth

this is also in harmony with the parable

of the wheat and the weeds as explained

by jesus in matthew

where he tells us that the weeds are

first pulled out and destroyed and then

the righteous rejoice

in the same way just as paul states that

jesus will destroy the antichrist at his

appearing epiphania in first timothy 6

14 he urges timothy to keep his command

without spot or blame until the

appearing of jesus well in second

timothy 4 8 he speaks of all of us who

long for his appearing

in second timothy 1 10 paul refers to

the lord's first coming as and appearing

clearly there's only one future

appearing of jesus and that is when he

comes at the end of the tribulation to

destroy the man of lawlessness notice

again that this appearing cannot be a

secret event any more than his first

appearing was a secret event

in keeping with this in first

thessalonians 4

16-17 paul says that we will be gathered

to meet the lord and transformed into

our new bodies at the sounding of the

trumpet which he calls the

last trumpet in first corinthians 15 52.

in a moment in the twinkling of an eye

at the last trumpet for the trumpet will

sound and the dead will be raised

incorruptible and we will be changed

yet we already saw in matthew 24 that

jesus comes after the tribulation to

gather his elect with the sound of a

loud trumpet and in revelation 11 the

kingdoms of this world become the

kingdom of our god and his messiah with

the sounding of the

seventh and final trumpet

how then can paul say that the last

trumpet is sounded with the secret

rapture seven years before jesus comes

with the loud trumpet blast and and how

can it be the last trumpet if seven more

trumpets will sound after it

the easy answer is that it describes one

in the same event that it is the last

trumpet it's the seventh of seven at the

end of tribulation simple

as for believers in tribulation if

there's anything where were promised in

the bible it's tribulation it's lipsys

in greek

but in jesus we overcome john 16 33

jesus tells us that in this world we

will have tribulation but not to be

discouraged since he has overcome the

world in acts 14 22 paul tells us that

we must enter the kingdom through many

tribulations in romans 5 3 paul writes

that the tribulation helps develop

character while in 835 and his list of

things that will not separate us from

messiah's love he puts tribulation at

the top of the list that's why right at

the beginning of the book of revelation

john writes i john your brother and

companion in the tribulation and kingdom

and patient endurance that are ours in

jesus revelation 1 9. the noun ellipsis

occurs 43 times in the new testament

there's no basis for turning into a

special distinct time period from which

we will will be raptured out to the

contrary god's consistent method is to

keep us safe in the midst of the storm

as jesus prayed for his apostles in john

17 15

i'm not praying that you take them out

of the world but that you protect them

from the evil one and by the way this is

the only other time in the greek new

testament where the identical words are

used as in revelation 3 10 where he will

keep us from that hour of trial

pastor walker would say final

tribulation is different this is god's

wrath being poured out

i say in response god knows how to

shield his people from his wrath that's

why the lord says to us in isaiah 26 20

with reference to the final outpouring

of wrath go my people

enter your rooms and close your doors

behind you

hide for a little while until the wrath

has passed and remember the plagues were

poured out on the egyptians but not on

israel before the exodus

sadly rather than emphasizing that jesus

saves all believers through all

generations from the coming wrath

meaning the final judgment hell

the pre-trib message emphasized that

jesus saves the final generation of

believers from a seven year period of

tribulation

i've even seen altar calls urging people

to get saved to avoid the tribulation

that's not the message or the emphasis

of the new testament

and while we're to live our lives with

eager expectation looking forward to the

lord's return every day of our lives and

always walking worthy of that high

calling the new testament writers did

not imagine that jesus could come at any

moment and i'll address this more in my

rebuttal time as peter said of jesus in

acts 3 21 for he

must remain in heaven

until the time for the final restoration

of all things as god promised long ago

through his holy prophets

paul also explains in romans 11 verses

11 through 15 that israel's future

salvation would usher in the

resurrection of the dead yet pre-trib

proponents recognize that the people of

israel will turn to the lord and mass

during the tribulation period

if not at the end of that period

and that is precisely when the dead in

christ will rise to meet the lord and

the air at the end of the tribulation

period

that's why it's also at the end of the

tribulation period in revelation 19 in

conjunction with the visible second

coming of jesus that it's written let us

rejoice and exult and given the glory

for the marriage of the lamb has come

and his bride has made herself ready as

professor craig keener wrote in our book

not afraid of the antichrist this is

also what we would expect

jewish people expected the messianic

banquet to begin with the consummation

of god's kingdom jesus also spoke of

eating and drinking with us in the

kingdom and of gentile believers joining

that banquet in the kingdom the banquet

belongs not to the tribulation but to

the kingdom which pre-tribulationists

normally associate with the millennium

in short there's not a stitch of

biblical support for a pre-trib rapture

and i doubt that one out of 10 million

adherents of the pre-trip system came to

believe in this doctrine solely by study

the scriptures which without outside

influence

if you're watching this debate and

you've held your pre-trib rapture ask

yourself this question did you learn it

studying the bible on your own or you

taught it

accordingly there is clear evidence that

the disciples of the apostles the early

church leaders expected jesus to return

after the antichrist was revealed and

after a time of tribulation that's what

they were taught the idea of a secret

rapture completely separated from the

second coming was totally unknown to

them as summarized by professor thomas

lee in his 1986 article in the journal

of the evangelical theological society

the return of christ as taught by the

anthony's nicean fathers was an event

that occurred after tribulation and

persecution for their faith they were

urged to be faithful he adds since this

return only occurred only after a period

of tribulation it is impossible to see

how the antenna see and fathers can be

described as giving teaching that

supports the view of a pre-tribulation

return of christ scholar after scholar

would support that the good news is that

the gospel is made for the hard times

and in jesus we are more than conquerors

and overcomers the tougher the times the

more we will shine

sadly corey ten boone reported that

believers in china were taught before

the rise of the bamboo curtain the rise

of communism that before things got

really bad they would be taken out and

of course that didn't happen they were

slaughtered they were tortured they were

in prison they enjoyed endured

unimaginable hardships

and yet when missionaries came back

afterwards these believers that survived

were very upset they said you told us

we'd be taken out before things got

really bad i recently heard a major

preacher from a major pulpit saying i

know things are bad with the virus but

don't worry we will escape before things

get really bad you say but that's not

pastor walker's position i understand

that but i'm saying this is how we've

seen it play out time and time again the

good news is in jesus we overcome all

tribulation all testing we grow through

it the good news is god knows how to

shield us from his wrath and this is

what we're looking forward to think

about it

not some disappearance that is nowhere

taught in in the bible again show me

that word disappearance just once

referring to just once

not taught at all

nothing in there i know it's been

popularized by late great planet earth

and by by

the jerry jenkins tim lahaye series and

all of these different things but we've

got to go with scripture this is what's

going to happen things are going to

shake and get very intense the idea

we're going to be able to count exact

days of of course not some people think

we're in the tribulation now all right

no no no there's all kinds of confusion

it's not going to be able to count days

perfectly paul says everyone's going to

think peace and safety in the world but

we're going to know that day is not

going to come like us for a thief it's

going to be like a thief for the world

but not for us because we know because

we're aware and it's talking about the

sudden destruction that's going to come

whenever it talks about coming like a

thief it's always at the end of the

tribulation period in the new testament

jesus appears for the whole world to see

in the midst of shaking calamity when

many people are still in denial and just

trying to live their lives and peace and

safety in deception jesus appears in the

midst of the shaking for the whole world

to see with his glorious angels we are

then caught up to me then the dead and

messiah rise first we're all caught up

to meet him together and we descend in

glory as he establishes his kingdom and

we celebrate our union our marriage it's

a glorious picture it's a picture of

triumph it's a picture of overcoming and

based on the persecution the early

saints endured they knew this is how god

will ultimately vindicate i will stay

with the plain and simple meaning of

scripture i do not believe in a second

coming and a third coming but in one

second coming only thank you

so now uh pastor walker you have 12

minutes for rebuttal

you may begin now

thank you

um yes um

there isn't enough time of course but uh

a lot of um

the this uh pro what

dr brown is saying is is about the

parousia is based on terminology

um for instance

prophecies in the old testament

prophesied the coming of the messiah as

theological language we now break that

down into the first coming and the and

the second coming because it worked out

more complicated than perhaps people

would have expected simplicity might

have thought the messiah would do

everything in one go but he didn't and

so it's just a matter of terminology

whether we describe the two phases

of the lord's return or call it the

third second third coming i mean it's

just theological language to describe

what happened there's nothing

intrinsically

um

unlikely or silly about the idea that

there might be two stages to the lord's

return just as there were two stages as

it were to the messianic fulfillment one

suffering and for our salvation and to

for

our glory um a lot of that terminology

is used such as secret and i i think

that's mostly used by opponents

of the pre-trib rapture i i certainly

think that the only thing is that secret

about

the rapture is the timing the timing is

a secret but apart from that

uh it's be the greatest public event

that's ever been thus far and and i do

disagree that um the parousia epiphany

apocalypses and so on these key words

they are not technical terms that

every time they are used it always

refers to christ's second coming they're

used in all kinds of ways the question

is really are those appropriate words to

use for the rapture well yes indeed the

parousia in and

according to 1 thessalonians 4 is indeed

the coming of christ the fact that he

doesn't land on earth doesn't mean it's

not a perusia that would be nonsense in

fact thessalonians 4 calls it a perusia

when even when he's in the clouds you

know and when christ returns we won't be

able to say to him well this isn't a

proper prusio yet because you haven't

actually landed on the earth there's no

definition of prusia that says he has to

land on the earth to make it a perusia

it's is it

is it a man is it an appearing

absolutely be the greatest ever

appearing he'll appear in glory to over

a billion people the first comings

described as an appearing uh a

manifestation uh and

he only appeared probably to 50 i don't

know

a few thousand people would have seen

him and yet the rapture will be far

greater be a billion people he'll appear

to in glory and it will be an unveiling

of his glory so these words are entirely

appropriate to use for the rapture as

well as it's not a halfway coming or a

secret coming or anything like that it's

just the using words to discredit the

concept which is a valid concept of

course it has to be justified but you

can't dismiss it on the grounds of just

words and in terms of why christ would

use

parousia for both events i'm i i was

hoping that you would bring up your

uncle fred illustration

that you had in your book but um

let me just rewrite that a bit and so

let's say uncle fred is an evangelist

holding a city crusade and he's asked

when is he going to come and do this

crusade and uh he knows that they're

thinking about the big meeting in the

stadium so he tells them it's going to

be in eight weeks

but actually he's also coming before

that to meet especially with all the

pastors and workers at a time not

publicized so to give a complete answer

he would have to say well look i am

coming to do the crusade in eight weeks

but i'm also coming

uh a bit before that for a meeting

and the context of his com so he talks

about the two comings because they've

asked him about it and uh but the

context makes it clear whether he is

which which of those comings it is and

so it is in the

in matthew 24 the context tells you

these are two different comings because

in the first coming uh the first one is

knowable the other one is unknowable

one is during a time of peace and safety

the world is living a normal life and

however you try and make it and this bit

was cut off because i ran out of time

it's absolutely not normal life leading

up to the second coming all hell is

breaking loose the battle of armageddon

is on the bowls of wrath have been

poured out it's total devastation it's

the worst time ever all flesh is about

to die

you cannot say that that's normal life

peace and safety you cannot reconcile

the context tells you there are two

separate comings going on here

i i want to also just talk about the uh

that the trumpets and so on the uh

the rapture

at the last trumpet because this is a

common uh thing that's that's uh argued

uh

surely it must be the seventh trumpet in

revelation well surely it's the great

trumpet in matthew 24

31

at the second coming well

it can't be the seventh trumpet for a

number of reasons because paul can't be

referencing the seven trumpets in

revelation

which hadn't even been written uh won't

be written for another 50 years the

second seventh trumpet is an angelic

trumper blown by an angel

not the trumpet god of god blown by

christ the seventh trumpet releases

judgments on the world

while the rapture trumpet results in the

transformation of god of the bodies of

the saints and us rising to meet him and

the timing's wrong in a plain reading of

revelation the seventh trumpet is

followed by the seven bowls of wrath and

it's only at the sixth bowl that the

armies start being gathered for

armageddon so there are at least a few

months before the second coming when the

seventh trumpet is blown

now the great trumpet of matthew 24 31

at the second coming that is more worthy

of consideration you know that he'll

send his angels with a great trumpet and

they'll gather together his elect from

the four winds from one end of heaven to

the other

but despite some similarities the

differences are too great to be the

rapture of the church

uh

just as there are similarities

describing a bush and a tree it doesn't

follow that the bush is the same thing

as a tree

for example there's no resurrection or

rapture in these verses which is the

essence of the event

in the rapture we are not gathered and

lifted up by angels but by christ

himself

and

and what would that say about our

glorified bodies if we had to have the

angels doing the lifting

but most importantly i would say

study

verse 30 what matthew 24 31 in light of

the old testament backgrounds how the

original jewish hearers would have

understood it because they knew their

old testament and it's a summary really

of all the prophets had to say about the

final worldwide gathering of israel to

her land and in particular jesus

identified the trumper as the great

trumpet and that's the key to this whole

passage because there's only one other

verse in the bible that speaks of the

great trumpet that's isaiah 27

verse 12 it says you'll be gathered one

by one oh you children of israel and it

shall be in that day the great trumpet

will be blown they'll come who are about

to perish in the land of assyria

outcasts in the land of egypt and

worship the lord in the holy mount in

jerusalem and so the jewish disciples

would have understood jesus meaning the

the regathering of believing israel from

the nations at his coming

and the

the context confirms that this is

talking about israel because he says for

the lex sake these days will be

shortened in other words

israel is under threat of extermination

armageddon and jesus returns to israel

to save his elect to fulfill his

covenant to her and then it says having

done that he will complete her

regathering by blowing the great trumpet

gathering them from all the nations in

preparation for the kingdom and so this

is using jesus used the same language as

the prophets in terms of

saying that the israel would be

scattered to the four winds in the same

way they would be gathered from the four

winds from the four corners of the earth

so

using the exact same language of the old

testament jesus is saying he's going to

blow the great trumpet to regather

israel

back to the land you see where is he

he's on the mount of olives and he blows

the great trumpet gathering israel back

to himself

so how do we explain paul's use of the

last trumpet in corinthians 15 which is

a classic attack of course on the

pre-trib position i don't i believe we

don't have to search for another trumpet

in the bible to explain it because

there's a coherent explanation within

the text itself of the two classic

rapture passages of what that trumpet is

paul is at great pains to emphasize that

the event initiated by the trumpet of

god happens in two stages involving two

groups of saints

uh those who've died and those who are

still living says the lord will descend

with a shout with the voice of the

archangel with the trumpet of god and

the dead in christ will rise first then

we are who are alive and remain will be

caught up together so it's clear there's

a distinct order here with the dead in

christ rising first followed by we who

are still alive it follows that the

trump of god will be blown twice the

first sounding will be to resurrect the

dead and call them to christ then the

second sounding will be to rapture the

living

this of course is the last trumpet and

this agrees perfectly with one

corinthians 15 it says behold i tell you

a mystery we shall not all sleep but

we'll all be changed in a moment in the

twinkling of an eye at the last trumpet

notice it's specifically those who are

alive who are changed at the sounding of

the last trumpet what about the dead in

christ who have already been raised at

this time

in the next verse paul tells us that

they too will be raised at the sounding

of god's trumpet for the trumpet will

sound and the dead will be raised

incorruptible and will be changed so by

combining these two passages the clear

deduction is that christ will send sound

his trumpet twice at the first trumpet

the dead are raised and at the last

trumpet we who are still alive will be

changed and raptured

i would also just say uh very quickly

that

the the difference with the as in the

times of moses is simply that um jesus

didn't say it would be like in the days

of moses that that in other words uh

like in noah's flood because it's a

worldwide judgment that you can't have a

place on earth where they were protected

like they were at goshen for instance

that way god would have preserved some

high ground when the flood was poured

out that noah could stay safe at but

since it was a worldwide judgment that

was not possible and so he had to be

removed from the very scene of judgment

and so in that sense it is not like the

the day of moses

and

interestingly enough the the verse in

isaiah

um

it that talks about hides

my people from the wrath

well that is actually if you if you read

them the following the surrounding verse

it says that the lord is coming out of

heaven in isaiah 27 and therefore

hide yourself my people from this coming

wrath but the problem is on the

post-trib theory

then

they weren't going to be hiding because

this is when jesus is going to rapture

them he shouldn't stay hide he said get

ready for liftoff

and so

um

i don't think that isaiah verse is

particularly helpful to the post-trib

position

um yeah i'll settle for that

okay thank you pastor walker uh dr brown

you now have 12 minutes

you may start now

all right

what we just heard is that the last

trumpet is not the last trumpet we just

heard about another trumpet manufactured

that paul doesn't speak about we heard

that the paris sea is different than the

parasia the pefephania is different than

epiphania the apocalypsis is different

than the apocalypses and that god does

not have the ability to protect us from

his wrath when he pours it out on the

whole world

wow

okay

we also didn't hear a syllable of

response to 2 thessalonians 1 which says

that we

persecuted believers will get relief

when jesus comes in flaming fire taking

vengeance on those that don't know god

we didn't hear a syllable of response to

2 thessalonians 2 3 that says the

apostasia which i will clearly

demonstrate however you want me to

lexically

from from history it means a spiritual

rebellion that that and the revealing of

the antichrist must happen first before

the lord's parasia

also the idea that these words must be

nuanced in a certain way every time

they're used just think of this if

pastor derek had just used biblical

vocabulary in his teaching it would have

left you completely confused like my

analogy about soccer first half followed

by a first half

also we're talking now about a parasia

that doesn't actually arrive it spoke of

the the emperor say arriving in the city

and then the word for meet him will will

meet him in the air that was describing

in the ancient world often used when the

crowds would go out of the city to meet

the emperor as he made his procession in

we go out to escort him back

he said well what about john 14 that

jesus would go and prepare a place for

us well it doesn't say he's going to

heaven to prepare a place for us in

heaven it says in his father's house

there are many rooms okay and that greek

word room is found later in john 14. in

fact you won't find it elsewhere right

you'll find it later in john 14 where

jesus says that he and his father will

come and dwell with us we will have

rooms here and over it is a spiritual

dwelling that he has prepared for us

that we are enjoying now

the idea that he's going to go to heaven

prepare room for us which we get to

enjoy seven years and then come back to

him with him on earth where he rules and

reigns is completely ludicrous the idea

that revelation 3 10 speaks of a secret

rapture we won't use the word secret or

speaks of a rapture because he will keep

us from the hour well he jesus tells us

exactly how in john 17 15 using the only

time in the greek bible the identical

bourbon preposition that he prays to his

father i am not praying that you will

take them out of the world but keep them

from the evil one he knows how to keep

his people