13 Reasons to Reject the Pretribulation Rapture

um coming for afternoon Sunday school.

As long as we're doing it, it'll

probably be 30 years when we're meeting

in the afternoon. It's still going to be

uh strange to not be saying good morning

for uh for Sunday school for sure. But

uh a ton to cover today on the return of

our Lord Jesus. Certainly, we can't

wait. That's what we know for sure is

that it has never been this close and it

is a great day coming. But um the

details

are um harder to discern and we're

looking today at uh at those um with

with a number of good points, probably

two hours of good points that we're

going to try to uh squeeze into 42

minutes. So, let me pray for us and uh

and we'll uh turn it over to Mark and

Greg to help us with uh with this.

Father, we are grateful for your

countless blessings, including uh the

soon return of our Lord Jesus. We are

grateful. so grateful um that you are in

heaven and you do as you please. And it

has pleased you to reveal to us that uh

someday there will be the end of this uh

sin and sorrow and sadness. And we will

experience um eternal bliss um with you

um where where there will be no more

sin, no more sadness, no more pain, uh

no more tears, but just a continual

um glorifying you as uh as should be

happening now, but doesn't always happen

now. And so Lord, we are grateful. We

pray that today uh we would um be able

to with humility um look at these uh

somewhat controversial

um topics of of the details of of your

return. Um but Lord, you would give us

discernment and grace. Um Lord, we are

so grateful uh that while we were yet

sinners, Christ would die for us. And we

pray that we would remember the gospel

um even as we tackle these theological

issues in Jesus name. Amen. Um

Mark, why don't you start us?

Okay. If you have a Bible, turn with me

to Matthew chapter 24. Matthew 24.

I I will say that personally like trying

to study esquetology, which is the fancy

word for the last things or the end

times, it it is a humbling thing, is it

not to study? because

you're dealing with I think some of the

hardest passages to interpret in the

Bible. They they they're passages that

run throughout books like Daniel,

Ezekiel, Isaiah, Zechariah. Then you

have New Testament. The the chapter

Matthew 24 is called the Olivet

Discourse because Jesus was on the Mount

of Olives when he gave this discourse

across from the temple. This is on the

week of his death and he's predicting

for sure the destruction of the temple

in AD70, which is going to happen about

40 years from when he says this. But

he's also, I think, uh, predicting some

events preceding his second coming and

his actual second coming to earth. And

it's described in Matthew 24. It's

described in Mark 13. And I believe it's

also in Luke 21 around that that spot.

And it's one of the hardest sections of

teachings of Jesus. I think it is the

hardest teaching of Jesus to interpret

in the Bible. And then you go to the New

Test later in the New Testament after

Jesus. Some of Paul's most difficult

chapters in the Bible, I think, are

about the return of Christ. like 2

Thessalonians 2, the man of lawlessness

and the rebellion and this and that. It

it's very difficult to know precisely

what is being described. Um let me just

let me say something else here at the

beginning of this conversation is you've

probably heard or some of you have heard

the phrase uh prophetic

telescoping.

Now that that's again sounds fancy. It's

not fancy at all. If you've ever been,

you know, to see a mountain range and

you look through your binoculars or

maybe you even have like a telescope and

you're looking at a mountain range from

far off, if you look at it with your

binoculars, two mountains could look

like they are nearly touching uh from

your perspective as you see it two

dimensionally through your I guess

threedimensionally through your

binoculars, but it looks almost two

dimensionally. You see these two things

right up against each other. And if you

were to travel all day to get to the

mountain peak, that first mountain peak

you get to, you would you might discover

that there's another 30 m before the

next mountain peak. So when you were

sitting back looking through your

goggles, these things look like they

were sitting on top of each other. When

you get to the first mountain peak,

there's actually a massive gap between

the two. And so with with prophecies in

both Old and New Testament, this is

happening, I think, regularly. So that

Daniel is describing events that are

going to happen in a couple hundred

years from where he is. He's also

describing events with Jesus a couple

hundred years after that. He's also, I

think, describing end times events right

before the return of Christ. Three

mountain peaks right up next to each

other. And it's sometimes hard to know

which mountain peak is which. When are

we talking about this guy in the in the

160s BC named King Antiochus who I think

is there? When are we talking about

Jesus himself and his being crucified

which I think is there and when are we

talking about the antichrist who I think

is also in Daniel and and those those

there there's a lot of connections

between these three. Sometimes there's

patterns. Uh we call this typology where

one foreshadows the next and the next

one foreshadows the next one. So there

might be similarities between them but

it's not always crystal clear when the

immediately preceding event like the

next event is being referred to when the

one after that when the one after that's

being talked about. And every time

personally I feel like, and I'm

borrowing this illustration from someone

else, but every time I feel like I've

gotten the puzzle pieces put together

for my view, I always look over and

there's about five puzzle pieces left

over, texts that don't really fit

perfectly in my grid. And so then I I

rework it again with these other pieces

and try to make them fit. And then some

other pieces seem to pop out on the

other side. So I I never feel at least

at this point in my life, I don't feel

like I have a settled grasp on all these

passages and how they all fit together.

So we're going to do the best we can.

Some of these things are more difficult

than others, but we're going to be again

discussing uh the rapture itself. And we

won't give the caveats we gave two weeks

ago. If you were here, if you weren't

here, you can go back and listen to

that. We gave a lot of caveats and

foundations for that. Today, we're going

to really just dive in and go pretty

quickly through a number of points.

Right now, what I have written down is

13 reasons to doubt the pre-tribulation

rapture. So, we may not get to all 13. I

I don't know what's going to happen as

we go, but 13 reasons to to doubt uh the

pre-tribulation rapture.

And again, all the caveats uh I don't

want to repeat from from two weeks ago.

Greg, any other introductory thoughts as

we jump into this?

Um, I like what you said about, you

know, some of this it's it's how do we

piece things together and I think we

just all need to strive to be honest to

say no matter what position we come down

on, pre-trip, post-trip, there's always

going to be texts that we're going to

struggle with. No one has it super nice

and perfectly clean and crisp with no

issues like and and I think we just need

to acknowledge that like this is this is

it's dealing with the future things that

haven't happened yet. Uh so we need to

be humble in terms of how we deal with

these things. Um and be honest and say

you know what this is my best attempt at

putting everything together. Uh and

constantly like you said you go back you

realize well this text might shine light

here and this that and the other. And so

we just want to be be honest and say

this is we think and are very confident

that the position we're presenting to

you makes the best sense of the

evidence. Okay? But we always want to be

evaluating in light of scripture. And

that's okay. All right? Like there is

certainty on the fact that Jesus is

coming back physically, bodily, visibly

to, you know, destroy his enemies and

rescue his people, establish his

kingdom. There's no doubt or debate on

that. There's no doubt or debate on the

crucifixion of Christ, on the

resurrection of Christ, on the ascension

of Christ. You know, there's so many key

things that scripture is abundantly

clear on and we have unity in that and

we don't doubt that. But an issue like

this dealing with the future and the

specific details, things can get a

little murky at times. And it's not

because scripture is unclear. It's

because we're limited. It's because

we're fallen. And one day, I think we're

all going to be in heaven. we're going

to look back on this and we're probably

going to laugh be like, "Ha, you know,

see how bad you got that there and oh

yeah, look at what I got wrong there and

um thinking about the details of the end

times." Like we're probably going to

have a good laugh about it and then move

on and keep worshiping and serving the

Lord. Uh so let's just keep that in mind

as we go through this, okay? Um we're

approaching this trying to fit a lot of

stuff together and you know, we just

need to be humble about it.

And again, just just to remind you, the

discussion, if I'm using the table, is

like moving forward in time. The

question is, will there be in the future

a what is often called the secret

rapture of Christ, where Christ returns

invisibly, not seen by unbelievers, but

by believers? Both dead believers are

resurrected and living believers are

transformed in a moment. We are caught

up together with the Lord in the clouds.

1 Thessalonians 4, that caught up is

where we get the word rapture. We're not

denying that that is absolutely right

and biblical. We're caught up in the

Lord. Does that happen here? And then

there's a 7-year period of tribulation

where the seals, trumpets, and bowls of

Revelation 6-16 are poured out on the

world. When the church is gone, there's

a conversion of 144,000 ethnic Jews

would be the view. They evangelize the

world and save many people out of the

world during the tribulation. Then um at

the end of those seven years, Jesus

comes back visibly publicly and judges

the world in righteousness. That is that

what the Bible teaches? Now again, that

is what most at least we're Southern

Baptists. Most Southern Baptists have

for the last h 100red years have taken

that view for granted. Like if you don't

believe that view, it's like wait, how

could you? That's what the Bible says.

Like what are you talking about? Many of

the major well-known TV preachers and

even otherwise solid evangelists of the

last century have been have taken this

view. Um the other view is that the

descriptions in the Bible of the rapture

which are three texts that we'll talk

about those three texts describing the

rapture are those describing the same

event which is Christ's public

appearance in judgment. That is the view

that that I again I I want to be humble

about this but at this point having

studied it even more uh in recent days I

am extremely personally persuaded that

there's only one return of Christ coming

in the future that it happens at the end

of a time of tribulation and that both

the rapture text and the judgment text

are describing one singular event. Now

could I be wrong on that? I mean that

question I could apply that to a lot of

my doctrine. But I I want to say I think

the arguments weight much more strongly

from what I can tell in favor of one

final return of Christ, not two returns

or what what is often said is one return

in two stages is how it's often said.

But if Jesus comes from heaven to earth

once and then leaves and then comes back

seven years later, how is that one

return in two stages? That sounds like

two return. That's why I'm calling it

two. I think it is two returns

functionally speaking. So is there going

to be two returns or one future return

of Christ? Could before uh you give us

these reasons, could you help us from

your perspective from from this

perspective then? What's the

tribulation?

Could you help us with that? Just

because I think that question could come

out. Yeah, we know what the tribulation

is from the pre-trib.

Yes.

How how do you see the tribulation?

Ju just I'm going to throw some Greek

words out just because these are the

words that are always debated. The

wordis is the word for uh tribulation.

It's used I don't know 40ome times in

the New Testament. Paul uses it dozens

of times. Uh,

everybody in in this situation is

largely agreed that when Paul's using

the word, he's normally referring to the

suffering Christians endure in this age.

In other words, I I believe this is

again, this is controversial. We have to

defend this biblically. I believe the

tribulation is real. I believe it lasts.

Are you ready for this? I believe it

lasts not for seven years. I believe it

starts upon Christ's crucifixion. I

believe that's the beginning of the

tribulation. And I believe that his the

tribulation goes until the return of

Christ, the final. I believe it's the

entire period between the resurrection,

ascension of Christ, and his final

return. That's the time of tribulation.

Basing that in Matthew 24 when Jesus

talks about the tribulation that goes on

until his return. So, I believe it's an

entire

now it's been almost 2,000 years of

tribulation. But I do believe based on

uh texts in for instance, Revelation, uh

texts in um several places that I could

we could we could get to. I think we

will get to some of these where I do

believe there's an intensification of

tribulation that comes with the time of

the antichrist right before the return

of Christ. So the entire period in

between is is marked by earthquakes that

Jesus mentions, famines, wars, rumors of

wars. Those are always going on. They're

not a necessary indication that Jesus is

about to come back despite what many

prophecy books will tell you, right? You

know, there's an earthquake, there's a

blood moon, there's this and that.

Therefore, Jesus is coming back in the

next few years. That's not what Jesus

actually says. The the end is not yet

when these signs begin. These are labor

pains. And the labor pains may indicate

labor pains indicate a child is coming,

but it doesn't indicate exactly when the

child is going to be born. Some women

have long and some women have short

labors. And uh what I have no business

talking about that so we we'll keep

moving. But um the the labor pains last

between the the first and second coming

of Christ. There will always be wars,

rumors of wars, famines, pestilence, all

that stuff will be happening. That's

tribulation. The church is always being

in some way of persecuted. If they if

they if they hated me, they're going to

hate you. If they call the master of the

house be elabub, how much more will they

malign those of his household? Paul says

through many tribulations, the lipsis,

we must enter the kingdom of heaven. On

and on and on. Those who desire to live

a godly life in Christ Jesus will be

persecuted. We are in the tribulation.

There's no question about it. Go ask

Christians in Afghanistan or in North

Korea if we're in the tribulation. They

will tell you, "Yeah, my aunt was

murdered. My husband was murdered. My

son was murdered. We're in the

tribulation. We're we're at the time

where the world hates us." But I do

believe when the Antichrist, the man of

lawlessness appears. I believe that will

happen before Christ return. When that

happens, the intensification will be

increased. I base this on passages like

Daniel 7 and other places where the man

of laws, this this this Antichrist

figure goes uh with the with the

empowering really of Satan and and

begins to massively persecute Christians

perhaps on a much wider scale. I think

on a much wider scale than we have seen

before in church history. So persecution

is always happening but I think the

intensification gets turned up and then

Jesus will return. Second Thessalonians

1 2 says he will return. He will kill

the lawless one with the breath of his

mouth and bring him to nothing by the

appearance of his coming. So, I believe

Jesus is going to, everyone agrees on

this. He's going to kill the man of

lawlessness at his final return. And so,

I I believe we're in the tribulation

now, but it's going to get turned up

right before the return of Christ.

That's helpful. Good. Thanks.

Matthew 24. Now, this is this is

probably the least important of the 13

or so points today, but I I just want to

mention it because it's what the the the

the book Left Behind is based on. Okay.

So, maybe it's a cheap shot, but I just

want to take a quick shot at the title

Left Behind. If you look at Matthew 24,

uh look down at verse uh 36

of Matthew 24, Jesus says, "But

concerning that day and hour, no one

knows, not even the angels of heaven,

nor the Son, but the Father only." We

could talk about what that means another

time, but verse 37, "For as were the

days of Noah, so will be the coming of

the Son of Man. For as in those days

before the flood, they were eating and

drinking, marrying and giving in

marriage until the day when Noah entered

the ark, and they were unaware until the

flood came and swept them all away. So

will be the coming of the son of man.

Then two men will be in the field. One

will be taken and one left. Two women

will be grinding at the mill. One will

be taken and one left. That's left

behind right there. Uh therefore stay

awake for you do not know at what hour

the Lord is coming. Now just real quick,

if you look here, Jesus compares his

return to what Old Testament event?

Noah's flood. And Jesus says here, when

the flood came, Noah and his family

enter the ark. And those who were judged

were what? they were swept away. So

those who are taken away in Noah's flood

are those who experience God's judgment.

Those who are left in the boat are those

who are saved.

Left behind are the people who are

saved. Then Jesus says, "When I return,

it's going to be the same way. One will

be taken that is taken away to judgment

like like the flood, taken away, swept

away in judgment. The other one will be

left behind to meet Christ in the air

that left behind to be saved." So I

actually think the phrase left behind is

exactly backwards. We should be left

behind. You don't want to be swept away

with the flood of Noah. You don't want

to be swept away when Jesus returns. You

want to be left behind. You don't want

to be swept in. So ju just a little

tiny. That's probably the least

important point so I could even make

here. But I I do think left behind is

what you want to be, not what you don't

want to be.

No, you got it.

Okay. Point number two. Uh the this

Olivet discourse in Matthew 24, Mark 13,

Luke 21, it never mentions in any of

them that Christians will be taken away

before the tribulation. This is actually

a hard thing to make sense out of if you

take the other view. It never once says

that everything in these texts is always

about preparing us to make it through

the great tribulation that then leads to

the return of Christ. Why just just to

give you an example of what I mean there

uh look at um verse 21 and I do think

this is still Matthew 24. I this is

probably certainly in some way referring

to 70 AD with the fall of Jerusalem, but

I think it also applies to the

tribulation in general. I think that was

one part of the tribulation. Verse 21.

For then there will be great

tribulation, such as has not been since

the beginning of the world until now, no

and never will be. And in those days,

had uh had they not been cut short, no

human being would be saved. But for the

sake of the elect, those days will be

cut short. Then if anyone says to you,

"Look, here is the Christ, or there he

is." Do not believe it. For false

Christs and false prophets will arise

and perform great signs and wonders so

as to lead astray, if possible, even the

elect. See, I told See, I have told you

beforehand. So that they say to you,

"Look, he is in the wilderness," do not

go out. If they say, "Look, he's in a

room," do not believe it. For as the

lightning comes from the east and shines

as far as the west, so will be the

coming of the son of man, wherever the

corpses there, the vultures gather

immediately after the tribulation of

those days. So now we are

post-tribulational.

The sun will be darkened and the moon

will not give its light and the stars

will fall from heaven and the powers of

the heavens will be shaken. Then will

appear in heaven the sign of the son of

man. Then all the tribes of the earth

will mourn and they will see the son of

man coming on the clouds of heaven with

power and great glory. and he will send

out his angels with a loud trumpet call

and they will gather his elect from the

four winds from one end of heaven to the

other. And then he goes on to say, we

don't know the day or the hour. There's

no indication here that the church is

gone. Every indication is you guys get

ready because this is what's coming.

False Christs are coming. False messiahs

are coming. Earthquakes, famines, all

these things. Be prepared not to be led

astray during these times. And after the

tribulation of those days, I'm going to

come back and get my elect. I'm going to

come back and rescue my people. I'm

going to come back and call you to

myself. There's no indication the church

is gone when the tribulation is

happening. It's every indication that we

are to live through that time and then

we will be rescued at the end after the

tribulation in those days. I want to

bring something out from Matthew 24 and

make a connection to Matthew 28. Uh

because one of the things that is often

argued from a pre-trip perspective is

that like in Matthew 24 uh when you read

the signs of the end of the age verses

like 3-14 that's referring to um or it's

getting into verse 9 through13. It's

referring to what happens after the

church is raptured out. This is

something that's going to be taking

place uh during the tribulation. Look

specifically at verse 14. This gospel of

the kingdom will be proclaimed

throughout the whole world as a

testimony to all nations. and then then

the end will come. And so it's often

said, well, that's what's going to

happen in that final seven-year period,

that final seven-year generation. The

Jews, you know, will be back and there

will be Jewish evangelists and stuff

like that. But let's let Jesus interpret

himself here. Okay? And what I mean is

look at Matthew chapter 28. Okay? So

keep in mind gospel of the kingdom to

all nations. Okay? Look at Matthew 28.

This is the very famous great commission

text. And again, this is why it matters

that we read all of what Jesus says, not

just the go. Therefore, look at verse

18. Jesus came and said to them what?

All authority in heaven and on earth has

been given to me. That's language of

reigning. That's language of a king

who's been given his authority. Okay? So

the the gospel, the great commission is

given by one who has all authority by

the king. So it's a kingly commission

and a kingly gospel. It's the gospel of

the kingdom because it's the gospel of

the king. Okay. And where does what does

Jesus say to do to the church? He says

what? Go and make disciples

of all nations. What did he say is going

to happen in Matthew 24? This gospel of

the kingdom will be proclaimed

throughout the whole world as a

testimony to all nations. And the reason

why I'm bringing this up is it's the

same thing. It's the exact same thing.

The church, the church's commission is

how Matthew 24:14 is fulfilled. How does

the gospel get to all nations? Why does

it do that? It's because Jesus

commissioned his church to do that. And

also keep in mind, we we looked at this

in Acts 1:8. You know, you'll be my

witnesses in Jerusalem, Judea, and

Samaria, and to the uttermost parts of

the earth. Keep in mind, the gospel

started in Jerusalem. We are the

uttermost parts of the earth over here

in the United States. Okay? We are the

uttermost parts of the earth. It's not

from our location that it's uttermost.

It's from there. And we're the other

side of the world. Okay? And and I'm

again, I'm not trying to be like overly

antagonistic with that, but let

scripture interpret scripture here. It

seems very clear that when Jesus says,

"All authority is mine. Go make

disciples of all nations." That's the

gospel. That's the gospel we preach.

That's the gospel by which disciples are

made. And we go where? To all nations to

do that. There's not a future worldwide

evangelization effort that's going to

take place. It has been taking place for

the last 2,000 years. Why? Because this

gospel, the of the kingdom to all

nations is what the church has been

doing every time it preaches the gospel.

Oh, that's good. Turn with me to 1

Thessalonians chapter 4.

Uh the the three texts that I think both

sides are agreed. There's three texts

that explicitly talk about the rapture

in the Bible. Uh that would be John 14

1-4.

uh 1 Thessalonians 4

13-18

and 1 Corinthians 15 51-54. Those are

the three those are the three uh really

highly debated texts. And let me just

reread uh this text here so we can all

have it in our heads. Uh 1 Thessalonians

uh ver chapter 4 verse 13. Comforting

those who've had believing friends

who've died. But we do not want you to

be uninformed, brothers, about those who

are asleep, who have died, that you may

not grieve as others do who have no

hope. For we, for since we believe that

Jesus died and rose again, even so

through Jesus, God will bring with him

those who have fallen asleep. For this

we declare to you by a word from the

Lord, that we who are alive, who are

left until the coming of the Lord will

not precede those who have fallen

asleep. For the Lord himself will

descend from heaven with a cry of

command, with the voice of an archangel,

and with the trumpet of God, and the

dead in Christ will rise first. Then we

who are alive, who are left, will be

caught up together with them in the

clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And

so we will always be with the Lord.

Therefore, encourage one another with

these words. Now, keep going here. The

other the the view that we're arguing

against would say that the next verses

describe the return after the seven

years. What we just read is before the

seven years. That would be the argument.

Verse 5:1. Now, concerning the times and

seasons, brothers, you have no need uh

to have anything written to you. For you

yourselves are fully aware that the day

of the Lord will come like a thief in

the night, while people are saying there

is peace and security. Then sudden

destruction will come upon them as labor

pains come upon a pregnant woman, and

they will not escape. But you are not in

darkness, brothers, for that day to

surprise you like a thief. Just just

stopping there. Um

it's interesting, verse four. You are

not in darkness, brothers, for that day

to surprise you like a thief. seems very

strange that he would say that since no

Christians will be there for that to

happen. Uh that he should just say that

day will not that day will not overtake

you at all because you'll be gone seven

years before that day of verse four. But

he says it won't surprise you like a

thief. In other words, you will have

some sense that you're getting close to

that day right before the day happens

and you'll still be in the world when it

happens. It's not going to catch you off

guard. You won't you won't be caught

like a thief. But it seems strange if

he's addressing the church to say here

it won't surprise you like a thief when

they won't be there at all. It seems

very clear to me that they will be there

and that they will not be surprised by

it like a thief. Here's here's the point

I wanted to point out. I mentioned this

two weeks ago. I want to read through

this really quickly. GK Bill's

commentary on First Thessalonians. This

get this the parallels between Matthew

24 that Greg and I were just looking at

and 1 Thessalonians 4 and5 these two

paragraphs are incredible. He he gives

13 parallels between the two passages.

Now, here's why this matters.

Matthew 24, Jesus's return, everyone

agrees, is after the tribulation, right?

If 1 Thessalonians 4:5 is describing one

event that is the same event as Matthew

24, which you would expect to see if

there's a lot of parallels between them,

then that would have to mean that the

rapture text in 1 Thessalonians 4 occurs

after the tribulation because it's the

same return as Matthew 24. If that makes

sense, listen to 13 parallels between

the two texts. I just mention them very

quickly. Number one, obviously Christ

returns. That's 1 Thessalonians 4:16 and

Matthew 24. From heaven, both texts say

that. Accompanied by angels. Both texts

say that with the trumpet of God, that's

pretty specific. The trumpet of God is

in both texts. It's the only time Jesus

ever mentions a future trumpet. It's

also the only time Paul ever mentions a

future trumpet. Are we really thinking

these are two separate trumpet calls

separated by seven years? The simpler

answer seems the better answer. It's one

trumpet. It's the time of the

resurrection and the judgment. Number

five, believers are gathered to Christ,

right? The elect or the resurrected

saints are brought to Christ. Number

six, it happens in the clouds in both

texts. Number seven, the time is

unknown. Jesus says, "Even he does not

know in his humanity when he was going

to return." And Paul clearly says, "We

don't know the day or the hour." Same,

it's got to be the same event. Number

eight, both texts explicitly say, this

is in 1 Thessalonians 5 and Matthew

24:43 that the day is going to be like a

thief. It's got to be the same day.

Number nine, unbelievers are unaware of

the impending judgment. Both texts say

that. Number 10, judgment comes as pain

upon an expectant mother. Labor pains

are in both texts. It's got to be the

same event. Number 11, believers are not

deceived. That's in both texts. Number

12, believers are called to be watchful

in both texts. And there's a warning

against spiritual drunkenness in both

texts. And the what's amazing is Matthew

24 is lining up with both 1

Thessalonians 4 and 1 Thessalonians 5,

indicating that those two paragraphs are

referring to one singular event. And I I

think that that is a a very strong uh

argument, especially with the trumpet

call of God uh appearing in that text.

Well, I think it's it seems obvious

based on what you just showed that Paul

is referencing what Jesus talked about.

Absolutely.

Um and you don't I mean 13 very clear

things. And so it's like the Paul is not

introducing a different teaching or a

different event. He's commenting on the

event Jesus talked about. So if you want

com, you know, inspired commentary on

what Jesus meant in Matthew 24, go to 1

Thessalonians 4:5 because there is a

strong unity uh between what Jesus said

and what the later New Testament says.

In fact, I think a good case can be made

that the rest of the New Testament is

always built upon what Jesus said as

well as Old Testament stuff. But you you

can make you can see you don't have to

make them. You can see them all kinds of

connections between what Paul, James,

Peter, um and John they teach. You can

go back to the gospels and you can see

that either clearly taught by Jesus that

they're referencing in in some way or in

a seed form that they're developing

further that was there clearly but

they're just in explaining it and

applying it in a way Jesus didn't have

an opportunity to. So there is an

incredible unity between what Jesus

taught and what Paul's saying. And

instead of seeing a divide there saying

well Jesus meant one event, Paul meant

another. Instead, let's see Paul taking

what Jesus said and applying it to the

church in first in uh in Thessalonica.

Cuz otherwise you're you're stuck with a

predicament which is I agree with you

totally. Paul is building off Jesus's

teaching, Jesus's previous. There's no

question in my mind. How could 13

details be accidentally the same?

Clearly Paul has heard what Jesus said

and he's building off of it. But what

again is so remarkable is how could Paul

be describing a different event from

Jesus seven years apart? that to me the

the consistent

to to me the very persuasive answer I

want to be nice in how I say this to me

the very persuasive reason is because

they're describing the one singular

post-tribulational return of Christ to

me that's just it seems very clear to me

but but again not everyone sees it that

clearly um on on these notes number four

reason I want to mention here and I'll

just I've mentioned this two weeks ago

I'll say it really quickly the word here

in 1 Thessalonians 4 in verse 17 to meet

the Lord in the air remember is the word

apentasis which is a nearly technical

term that norm normally means a

welcoming committee goes out of their

home to meet a guest and then turns

around and comes back with their guest

into the home. And I've heard people

mock the rapture and I've actually heard

a preacher in the pulpit say, you know,

I saw this on video, but preacher in the

pulpit say, "Hey, like what's the point

of the rapture? Jesus comes down and we

just kind of go up and then we come

right back down. Like that seems like a

waste of time. Why are we going up and

coming right back down?" Well, first of

all, either Jesus is coming halfway and

going back to heaven with us or we're

going halfway up and coming back to

earth. Someone's going halfway and going

back, right? So, we can't make fun of

the halfway thing. Someone's going

halfway between heaven and earth and

returning to one place or the other. So

that that's got to be happening. We

we're not going to split up after that.

So I think that the this word appentasis

as it's used in the other two times in

the New Testament refers explicitly to

the bridal party coming out to meet the

groom turning around and coming back

into the house. That's what the word

meet normally means. And I think that's

uh the meaning here. We meet the Lord in

the air and we come right back to the

earth in judgment. Number number five

here and this is important. So follow me

on this. I'm going to use some Greek

words. I don't know what else to do. So

so the the three big words for Christ's

return. Are you ready? Number one is

paracia. It's used 15 times. It means

his coming. Every time you see that it's

paracia 15 times to to refer to his

coming. The other word is epiphania.

Think of epiphany means an appearing.

Jes Christ is going to appear. That's

used five times of Christ's return. And

the word apocalypsis which is used also

five times. It means to be revealed.

It's where we get the word apocalypse

for revelation to be revealed. Christ

will be revealed in heaven. Okay, that's

what 25 terms, right? I mean it's 25

uses of three terms. Now follow me here.

All three of those words and I'll just

give you the references. 2 Thessalonians

2:8 and 2 Thessalonians 1:7 covers all

three of those terms. All three of those

terms, his coming, his appearing, his

being revealed. All everyone agrees

about Christ's return. All three of them

are explicitly in 2 Thessalonians 1:7

and 2 Thessalonians 2:8 are explicitly

used to refer to Christ's return in a

post-tribulational context. Let me just

take you to the verses so you don't take

my word for it. 2 Thessalonians 1:7 real

quick here

it says that uh God verse 6 God

considers it just to repay with

affliction those who afflict you and to

grant relief to you who are afflicted as

well as to us when the Lord Jesus is

revealed from heaven there's the word

revealed right apocalypsis from heaven

with his mighty angels in flaming fire

inflicting vengeance on those who do not

know God that's not the secret rapture

that's the final return of Christ right

so clearly there that word is used now

look at chapter 2 verse

And then the lawless one will be

revealed whom the Lord Jesus will kill

with the breath of his mouth and bring

to nothing by the appearance. That's the

word epiphania of his coming, his

perusia. Okay, there you go. That's all

three words. No question this text is at

it's at the end of the tribulation. He's

killing the antichrist. This is the end

of the tribulation. Okay. All three

words are explicitly used to describe

Jesus coming back after the tribulation.

Those words are not once used explicitly

to describe Jesus coming back before the

tribulation. That's a powerful argument.

In other words, the n the words are

explicitly used in those texts to

describe Jesus coming back after the

tribulation. They are not once used

explicitly to describe my I think my

mic's cutting out. Not once used

explicitly to describe Christ's return

before the tribulation. So,

give me the argument that says those

words are referring to the

pre-tribulation return of Christ. And it

would be confusing to use the same words

to describe two separate events, one

before and one after tribulation. You

would need clear evidence of that. Where

are the verses that use Epiphania,

Apocalypsis, and Peruia in saying that

that will happen and then the

tribulation will begin? There's no clear

text that says that clearly like these

other texts it the other way clearly. So

the again the simple and to me the

straightforward interpretation is to say

these all refer to the same event. his

uh revealing, his appearing, his coming

is one singular event and it takes place

after uh the tribulation.

On that note, um I don't know if every

person convinced the pre-trip rapture

has taught this, but I ran this by my

wife to be sure cuz she grew up in

circles where that was that was just

like you said, it's the only way you

thought about these issues. Um and one

way that has been taught is well,

there's a difference between the coming

of Christ and the appearing of Christ.

and said, "The coming refers to the

rapture. The appearing refers to his

public second coming in and power and

glory." And one of the things, and

again, that's I don't know if that's how

pervasive that was in a pre-trip

mindset, but it was there. Uh I've heard

that said on my own, and I that's what

my wife was taught growing up. So, look

at 1 Thessalonians 4 again. Okay, this

this is important because this is the

word the word coming here. Uh verse um

where is it at? Verse 15.

Uh yeah, for this we declare to you by

word from the Lord that we who are

alive, who are left until the coming of

the Lord will not precede those who have

fallen asleep. So that's referring to um

Jesus coming is at the rapture,

pre-trip, post, whatever. But this this

the word is the coming of the Lord. Look

at second Thessalonians

2:1. Now concerning the coming of our

Lord and our being gathered together to

him typically referred said, you know,

that's the pre-trip rapture just like 1

Thessalonians 4. Then you go to 2

Thessalonians chapter 2:8

and the same word,

his coming.

The coming. And again, just to shore up

what Mark was saying, why would you have

two completely different ideas about

what that was without any reference to

the difference between those two ideas?

Um, you look at second 2 Thessalonians

2:1 concerning the coming of our Lord

Jesus Christ and our being gathered

together to him. We ask you brothers not

to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed

either by a spirit or spoken word or a

letter seeming to be from us to the

effect that the day of the Lord has

come. What's the I think we're going to

get on this in a second. The day of the

Lord is the day of what? The day Jesus

comes and we are gathered to him.

There's there's no distinction there. If

we just allow I think the text to to

flow as it is there there's no two

comeings here. There's one coming. The

day of the Lord is the day he comes back

for his people and we're gathered to

him. And if that's the case, you get

down to verse eight when it talks about

uh he's going to slay this lawless one

by the breath of his mouth, by the

appearance of his coming. Then there's

only one coming.

The same event that Jesus slays the

antichrist is when he comes for his

people and gathers his people to him.

And let me bolster that here. So I think

this is one of the strongest texts. It

goes right with what Greg's saying. But

look at 2 Thessalonians 1. I think this

is one of the most difficult texts to

get around from the other perspective.

I'm going to read it one more time

because it's worth hearing this again

because listen to the assumptions in

this text. Verse 5 of 2 Thessalonians 1.

This is evidence of the righteous

judgment of God that you, it's talking

about the church, right? That you may be

considered worthy of the kingdom of God

for which you, that's the church, are

also suffering. Since indeed God

considers it just to repay with

affliction those who afflict you and to

grant relief to you the church who are

afflicted as well as to us when when the

Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in

flaming fire with with his mighty angels

in flaming fire inflicting vengeance on

those who do not know God and those who

do not obey the gospel of the Lord

Jesus. Okay, if you feel lost right now

stick with me.

According to the pre-trip rapture view,

the typical left behind view, this is

what it would say. If if the church is

being persecuted, their time of relief

comes not at Christ's judgment return,

but seven years before. So, their time

of relief would come seven years before

he comes with fiery angels in flaming

fire to to judge the enemies of God.

Okay, this text, I think, can't

grammatically allow a seven-year gap

because it says the time of the relief

of the church is the time of the final

judgment with flaming fire, which is a

singular event with no seven-year gap in

the middle. Where's the seven-year gap

where the church has already been

relieved with heavenly dwellings for

seven years before the final judgment?

It clearly is spoken of as one event.

And I've actually I heard a debate, two

and a half hour debate I listened to on

this a couple weeks ago. And uh the the

guy kept the guy that takes you I

believe kept bringing up this text and

the other guy wouldn't wouldn't respond

to it. So finally in the in the Q&A

where he can force the guy to answer.

He's like, "You never answered second

Thessalians 1." He said, "Well, I'm

happy to talk about it." And then he

gives an answer I don't think uh works,

but let let me read it one more time.

Verse six.

God in since indeed God considers it

just to repay with affliction those who

afflict you that's his final judgment

coming right and to grant relief to you

the church who are afflicted as well as

to us when when the Lord Jesus is

revealed from heaven with his mighty

angels in flaming fire inflicting

vengeance on those who do not know God

and those who do not obey the gospel of

the Lord Jesus there's a second

Thessalonians commentary in our book

room and the author said he grew up

preerttrib dispensational pre-trip

rapture he said when he was preaching

through or working through 2

Thessalonians 1, that paragraph, that

those verses are what changed his whole

position. So, he's now written a

commentary arguing against the pre-trip

rapture, but he said this paragraph, you

can't escape it. The time of the relief

for the church and the time of the

judgment for God's enemies happens when

Jesus is revealed with his angels in

flaming fire inflicting vengeance. It's

not the secret rapture. It's the final

return, which is which is also when the

secret rapture takes place. So, I I

think that's a very uh strong uh

argument. Let me give you one more here.

Look at chapter 2. Back to where Greg,

you want to jump in there?

No, you're good, man.

Okay. Back to chapter 2 where Greg was

just reading. Uh look, look at this.

Start start at verse um three. 2

Thessalonians 2:3. Let no one deceive

you in any way. For that day will not

come unless the rebellion comes first

and the man of lawlessness is revealed,

the son of destruction, who opposes and

exalts himself against every so-called

god or object of worship so that he

takes his seat in the temple of God,

proclaiming himself to be God. Do you

not remember that when I was still with

you, I told you these things? Now, just

stop there.

Back when we were going through Acts, I

was amazed when I when I figured out

about the the planting at the church in

Thessalonica. this church that he's

writing to. Paul could not have been

there more than maybe a few weeks or a

couple of months. And he says, "Don't

you remember I told you about the man of

lawlessness while I was there?" That

blew my mind. A church that's got to be

less than 6 months old. He had already

taught baby Christians about the

Antichrist.

That I we haven't talked about it in six

years. I mean, Paul did in the first six

months, maybe in the first six weeks, he

don't you remember when I was with you,

I told you about the man of lawlessness

and the the rebellion comes first, then

the day of the Lord comes after that.

Don't you understand the order of this?

Like you, this is basic Christianity

101. I taught you this in the first

month I was there. That just blew my

mind because this is the subject I

almost like to leave out entirely. But

Paul says, "I taught it to these baby

Christians." And and what's interesting

here is Paul, they're confused on

whether the day of the Lord is coming or

not, whether they're on the brink of it,

whether it's already started. And Paul

says, "Listen, it cannot have happened

yet because two things have to happen

first. A mass apostasy, a falling away,

and the Antichrist, the man of

lawlessness, has to do his work before

Christ will return." And you know, if

there's confusion about whether or not

this day has come, Paul could have said

a very simple thing to to get rid of all

their confusion. He could have said, he

didn't have to go to the Antichrist. He

could have said, "Hey, are y'all still

here? You haven't been raptured, have

you?" Then we know the day hasn't come.

But Paul never refers the the rapture

would be the easiest way to disprove

that day of the Lord has already come.

Just go, "Hey, have we been raptured?"

And they'll be like, "No, we haven't."

"Do you know anybody who's been

raptured?" "No." "Well, then has the day

of the Lord come?" "No." Okay. But Paul

doesn't mention the rapture because it

hasn't happened yet. He's talking it's

going to happen after the man of losses

after the rebellion. So Paul mentions

what has to come before that day. Let me

read it one more time. Verse three. Let

no one deceive you in any way for that

day which includes the rapture and final

return will not come unless the

rebellion comes first and the man of

lawlessness is revealed. The son of

destruction etc. So the the mass

apostasy I think it's a falling away

amongst Christians. A massive coldness

of heart falling away aposti

apostatizing and the and the man of

lawlessness being revealed the

antichrist doing his wicked thing. that

has to happen before Christ's uh final

return. And Paul says that's how we know

this day has not approached yet. These

preceding events uh have not happened

yet.

I think also in light of that, I know we

got to wrap up here. We need to to keep

um keep in mind what we've talked about

multiple times, the importance of

humility on this because we can look at

a lot of things in our day and time and

say it really seems like this might

actually be happening in our day. And it

could be, but we can't say for sure that

it is.

There have been numerous generations

that have looked at the signs going on

around them and said, "Oh, it's it's

going to be our our generation. It's

it's going to be our generation." Um and

it may and it may not be. uh but the

constant refrain is be on the alert, be

watchful, be living in such a way that

you won't be ashamed when he comes if it

happens in your lifetime. So all you

know the the watchfulness is is an

ongoing thing for the church until Jesus

comes back because nobody knows when

that's going to happen. Um could these

things be coming into place right now?

It seems like there's a lot happening in

our world to where the the the man of

lawlessness, the antichrist and what

have you could be on his way in terms of

you think of totalitarian regimes

completely getting rid of religion,

exalting their human leaders. Think of

communist China. Think of North Korea.

They've got, you know, museums and

statues. They keep the bodies in state.

This is what people come to give their

devotion to is this human being. while

they reject and try to suppress any form

of belief in God. So, we we see at least

the precursors to it and how it could

happen.

And I I just want to just say there I I

agree it could it could these events

could start unfolding very soon, but I I

want to say something unpopular. It

could be another 5,000 years before

Jesus comes back. I don't think people

are used to that. We we want to think

like we we should not like the

Thessalonians stopped working because

they thought Jesus was about to come

back and Paul's like no that's not, you

know, buy canned goods and wait for the

rapture. Don't do that. Okay? That's not

what he's saying. He's saying no.

We should also be preparing for a world

our great grandchildren were living. Our

great great great great great

grandchildren were living in because I'm

telling you, if you would have been

around during the Holocaust, you might

have thought that the beast was the the

the Nazis and that that Hitler was the

Antichrist. And look at him. I mean,

he's killing the Jews. This is a perfect

picture. He he was not the Antichrist.

He was First John says, "Many

Antichrists have come, but there is a

final antichrist coming. There are many

beastlike moments. Nero was a beast-like

figure. Dominion was a beast-like

figure. Uh many, many different people.

Joseph Stalin was a beast-like figure.

There are many of those repeat

throughout human history, but um like

you're saying, we don't necessarily know

when the last one is going to show up on

the scene. But let me take you in our

last few moments to first Corinthians

15. This is another uh rapture passage.

1 Corinthians chapter 15. The whole

chapter is wonderful about the

resurrection. But I want to zero in on

our main on our main uh point here for

today. First, this 1 Corinthians 15.

Look at verse 50.

1 Corinthians 15:E 50.

I tell you this, brothers, flesh and

blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God,

nor does the perishable inherit the

imperishable. Behold, I tell you a

mystery. We shall not all sleep. We will

not all die. But we shall all be changed

in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye,

at the last trumpet. For the trumpet

will sound, and the dead will be raised

imperishable, and we shall be changed.

For this perishable body must put on the

imperishable, and this mortal body must

put on immortality. When the perishable

puts on the imperishable and the mortal

puts on immortality, then shall come to

pass the saying that is written, "Death

is swallowed up in victory." Uh, where,

oh death is your victory? Where, O death

is your sting? Now, stop stop there.

Want to zero in on something here. Verse

52.

In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye,

at the what?

Remember I talked about esquetology end

times. This is the word esque trumpet.

The last trumpet. Okay, that's the word

here. Okay,

I I my my purpose here is not to mock

but but I just have to quote this. Okay,

bec if you take the pre-trip raps

review, you can't say this is the last

trumpet because there will be a trumpet

after seven more years when Jesus

finally returns. Right? So John

MacArthur, I love John MacArthur. He's

one of my favorite pastors. In his

commentary on 1 Corinthians 15 on that

verse, he said the last trumpet is not

the last heavenly trumpet. That's the

actual statement in his commentary. Now

I understand what he means. He's trying

to he's trying to harmonize his theology

with the fact that it doesn't quite fit

with this phrase here. But I take the

phrase at face value. I think this last

trumpet is the same one Jesus talked

about in Matthew 24 when he said, "The

trumpet will sound. I will gather the

elect from the four winds of the world.

I'm going to come back to judge the

world." 1 Thessalonians 4, there's a

trumpet. Jesus gathers his elect. And in

1 Corinthians 15, there's a trumpet

called the last trumpet. I don't think

it's the last. And then seven years

later, there's another one. I think it's

the last. It's the last. Why else would

it be called the last trumpet? Unless

we're trying to be confused here. And

this trumpet here, it's definitely

referring to the rapture. But if it's

the last trumpet, it's got to be the

same trumpet from Matthew 24, which is

the posttribulational return of Christ

with the trumpet where he gathers his

people. I think that phrase last trumpet

and also he talks about the last enemy

to be destroyed is death. I think that

phrase is um is difficult uh to to try

to to try to respond to from a from a

pre-trip perspective.

It's a lot covered. How many points do

you have left?

I didn't even I lost track. I'm sorry,

guys.

I think we got five or six.

Five or half. Good.

I Yeah, we got we got some.

Do we got next week a little bit? Maybe.

I don't know if we'll have enough for

next week. We'll see.

Well, we'll do it. Greg, would you

please um pray and and the one thing we

know for sure, he is coming back.

Yeah, let's pray. God, we thank you that

uh we do have a hope, Lord, that

regardless of our position on the

tribulation, God, we all want Jesus to

come back publicly, visibly, bodily in

power and glory. God, that is our

blessed hope that we all share and we

all long for. And God, all debates and

all uh disagreements will be settled on

that day. Um and Lord, whether we were

right or wrong, we won't care at that

point because we'll be with our savior.

And I pray, Lord, we would keep that in

mind even as we Lord strive to to be as

faithful to your word and as confident

in our interpretation of it as we can

be, Lord. And um God, I just pray that

God, we would leave this time, God, I

hope convinced uh of a

post-tribulational perspective. But

regardless, Lord, that we would uh be

convinced that your word is true. And

God, that we have a hope that will not

fade. We have a hope that cannot die, a

hope that cannot be quenched, no matter

the sufferings of this present time,

what they bring. Lord, we know Jesus is

coming back. We know there is an eternal

kingdom coming. And God, we want that.

And we're thankful that through faith in

Jesus, we know we'll be a part of it.

And so, Lord, help us be a church that

lives in the moment, but also God, may

we constantly keep in mind this great

future event that our Savior is coming

back in power and glory. And that's the

day we long for. And we ask all this in

his name. Amen.