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Harrisburg Zoning Hearing Board Meeting 5/18/26

2:25:37737 summary words · ~4 min readEnglishTranscribed Jun 15, 2026
Summary

The Harrisburg Zoning Hearing Board reviews several critical land-use cases, focusing on legitimizing existing multi-family property conversions, approving an innovative cooperative affordable housing project on Walnut Street, and granting variances for the second phase of the TLC Cornerstone scattered-site development.

This meeting highlights how a Pennsylvania municipality balance strict physical zoning codes with housing affordability, historic preservation constraints, and the realities of modern urban infill development.

Section summaries

0:00-3:39

Call to Order & Case Housekeeping

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ZHB Chairman Claude Phipps introduces the board members and outlines the legal rules of order. Case 2628 is pushed to the end due to the applicant's absence.

This contains introductory administrative remarks and procedural setups.

3:39-18:15

Case 2634: 1644 Market Street Hearing

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Robert Shooks Jr. seeks variances to legalize an after-the-fact conversion of a single-family house. The board discusses reducing the building to 2 units, demolishing a dilapidated garage, and pricing rental units fairly.

This section reveals the dynamics of 'after-the-fact' conversions and municipal policy on urban rentals.

18:15-36:30

Cases 2635, 2636, and 2637: Shooks Multi-Family Conversions

optional

The board quickly reviews and approves three additional after-the-fact property conversions submitted by Robert Shooks Jr. on Forester Street and North Fourth Street, focusing on street parking and neighborhood blight mitigation.

The zoning principles are highly similar to the first case, but it demonstrates local neighborhood revitalization.

36:30-47:27

Case 2638: Walnut Street Co-Op Housing Intro

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Arthur Jefferson and Duran Sawyers propose a 6-unit co-op housing development on long-vacant lots on Walnut Street. Planning Director Jeffrey Knight details why the unique infill project deserves parking and density relief.

Essential for understanding modern co-op design and local affordable housing funding structures.

47:27-1:13:00

Case 2638: Co-Op Housing Project Testimony

watch

The applicants explain their financing strategy, utility hardships, and 15-year wealth-building co-op rental model. The board debates parking limitations and the lack of a prevailing building width in the historic Summit Terrace area.

This is the most policy-rich debate in the meeting, analyzing urban vehicle ownership and wealth generation.

1:13:00-1:34:54

Case 2639: Penn State Health Therapeutic Play Area

optional

Penn State Health requests a variance to establish an outdoor therapeutic playground across the street from their medical clinic. Engineers explain the narrow lot setbacks and why a 10-foot tall fence with overhead netting is necessary for patient safety.

The case is straightforward and primarily concerns specialized institutional landscaping rather than broad municipal housing.

1:34:54-1:53:09

Case 2640: Cornerstone Phase 2 Overview

watch

Jared Miller of the Cooper Companies presents Phase 2 of the TLC Cornerstone development, proposing 34 scattered-site affordable units on 9 vacant lots. Jeffrey Knight outlines the extensive setbacks and pedestrian infrastructure conditions.

Highlights the coordination needed for large-scale, scattered-site affordable housing initiatives.

1:53:09-2:18:42

Case 2640: Fencing & Sidewalk Negotiations

watch

The development team objects to the planning bureau's conditions regarding perimeter fencing and specific sidewalk widths, arguing they add construction and maintenance costs. The board and planning staff agree to modify the conditions dynamically.

Shows practical compromises on regulatory design demands between city planners and affordable housing builders.

2:18:42-2:22:21

Case 2628: Continuance & Adjournment

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The board returns to Case 2628 and discovers a property ownership transfer on recent deeds. ZHB Solicitor Connor recommends a formal continuance to June so the applicant can establish proper legal standing.

Provides an important lesson on deed tracking and legal standing required for public board appeals.

Key points

  • Resolving Codes and Planning Bureau Communication Gaps — Several properties converted into multi-family units operated under approved codes permits but lacked necessary planning bureau zoning reviews. The board utilizes 'after-the-fact' variance hearings to formalize and legally align these properties with city standards.
  • Innovative Cooperative Housing for Wealth Generation — The proposed 6-unit Walnut Street project introduces a cooperative housing model where tenants rent for a 15-year compliance period, after which they can buy a floor (one unit to live in, one to rent out) to build equity.
  • The Shift in Parking Mandates for Affordable Housing — Under Harrisburg's affordable housing guidelines, off-street parking mandates drop to 0.5 spaces per unit because statistical data shows low-income tenants are far less likely to own personal vehicles.
  • Balancing Standardization with Neighborhood Integration — During Phase 2 of the TLC Cornerstone development, developers negotiated with the city to relax strict fencing and sidewalk-width requirements to keep the project's aesthetics and costs aligned with Phase 1.
while the circumstances surrounding the past conversion are unclear, the planning bureau can confirm a history of condemnations related to property maintenance Jeffrey Knight
after we showed a little bit of love in the neighborhood uh that activity stopped Robert A. Shooks Jr.

AI-generated from the transcript. May contain errors.

0:00

meeting of the Harrisburg uh zoning

0:02

hearing board. Okay. Uh to my to my

0:07

right is Mr. James Hobs, myself, Claude

0:10

Phipps, and our solicitor Mike Connors.

0:14

Okay. And joining us from the city was

0:18

Okay. Miss Cameron who's a city

0:21

solicitor. Okay. City solicitor.

0:25

>> We'll make you a city. Yeah. We'll get

0:28

you.

0:30

Yeah. Well, we got to check and our

0:34

director of planning, Mr. Jeffrey

0:37

Knight. Okay. And to his left is I could

0:42

get your last name.

0:44

>> Stephanie.

0:45

>> Miss

0:46

Thompson.

0:47

>> Mr. Stephanie Thompson. Okay. So um

0:51

with this a little new u preamble uh

0:56

zoning hearing board um we our cases put

1:01

in front of us people who are bringing

1:02

the cases will be able to speak anybody

1:06

in in the audience who wants to speak on

1:09

any on any of the subjects has to be

1:11

gerine to the topic that's being raised

1:15

property. Okay. And they have to be that

1:17

be in somewhat close proximity to that

1:19

property. Okay. Again, we're a legal

1:22

entity. So, um we have aer

1:26

that the courts everything for, you

1:29

know, appeal has to happen which that

1:31

will go up to the court. The court

1:34

doesn't need to come please or uh

1:36

commonwealth court. So, to that effect,

1:38

I'm going to turn.

1:40

>> All right. Uh yes, Michael Oconor the

1:42

solicitor. Um and as uh Mr. Fipps was

1:45

explaining that we do have a

1:46

stenographer here who's taking all the

1:48

testimony down. Um all the witnesses uh

1:51

will be sworn in. Um you know the

1:55

applicant, Mr. Knight, anybody else who

1:57

will testify.

1:59

Um so with that, I will call though the

2:02

first application

2:05

um is 2628

2:08

uh 1854-1860

2:10

Walnut Street. Um, and it was the

2:15

applicant is Arya.

2:18

Is it Arya Carmazin?

2:21

Okay. Arya here.

2:27

Okay. Um, all right. We'll just push

2:30

that to the to the back. We'll push that

2:32

to the end um to see if they do arrive.

2:36

So, the next uh so many Mr. chokes.

2:40

We'll get through we'll get through

2:42

those applications.

2:45

Okay. So,

2:48

um that is we'll start with 2634.

2:51

Uh the address is 1644 Market Street

2:56

and um the applicant actually is uh

2:59

Keystone Property Service. Um and with

3:02

that, why don't we swear in the uh

3:05

planning director, Mr. night. Uh, first

3:12

>> I do.

3:13

>> Okay. And then we'll swear in uh the

3:15

applicant.

3:20

>> I do.

3:21

>> Okay. And just state your name also for

3:23

the record there.

3:24

>> My name is Robert A. Shooks Jr.

3:26

>> Okay. And here on behalf of Keystone?

3:28

>> Yes. I'm the owner of Keystone Property

3:29

Service LLC.

3:30

>> Okay. Great. U. So, I'm going to read in

3:34

um

3:36

the exhibits for the board exhibits for

3:40

this application and then we'll turn it

3:42

over to uh Mr. Knight for uh you know

3:47

background on the application. Um and

3:50

then we'll go from there to the

3:52

testimony of the applicant. So, we'll

3:54

start with B1 is a proof of publication

3:56

in the Patriot News April 5 and April

3:58

12, 2026. B2 is a letter sent from the

4:02

planning director to the applicant

4:04

notifying of the hearing. B3 is the

4:05

hearing notice posting on the property.

4:08

B4 notification letter sent to neighbors

4:10

and certificate of mailing. B5 the

4:13

application packet with photos of the

4:15

property and floor plans. B6 is a power

4:18

of attorney authorizing applicant as

4:21

agent and attorney in fact of the

4:22

property. B7 is uh the deed establishing

4:26

the owner of the property. B8, the

4:28

planning bureau case report. B9, city of

4:31

Harrisburg planning commission

4:33

resolution. And since this had to be

4:36

continued from the last time, we have a

4:37

couple other exhibits. B10 is then a

4:39

proof of publication for tonight's

4:41

meeting, uh, May 3, 2026, and May 10,

4:44

2026, and a letter sent from the

4:47

planning director notifying the

4:48

applicant of of tonight's hearing

4:50

because there was just an advertising

4:52

issue last time. So, with that, we'll

4:54

turn it over to Mr. tonight for a um a

4:57

description of the application, the

4:59

property, that type of thing.

5:00

>> Yep. Uh so, good afternoon, zoning

5:02

hearing board. Uh so, the application

5:04

for 1644 Market Street, uh case number

5:07

2634

5:09

uh is very similar to three previous

5:11

reviews that the board uh has had for uh

5:14

Mr. Shok's properties. Um again, all

5:16

after the fact uh applications. Um those

5:19

were uh 923

5:22

uh North 18th Street, 1923 State Street,

5:25

and 514 Emerald Street. Um so the issues

5:28

are are very uh similar. Um in this

5:31

case, the applicant has converted a

5:32

single family dwelling into a three-unit

5:34

multif family dwelling, which require

5:36

zoning hearing board approval, special

5:37

exceptions for the proposed use and

5:39

relief from the All Street parking

5:40

requirements per section 7-305.7 and

5:43

7-327.6 six of the zoning code

5:46

respectively and variances for relief

5:48

from the density and specific criteria

5:49

regulations in section 7-307.3

5:53

and 7-309.2V

5:55

of the zoning code respectively. Uh in

5:57

in this case again uh the applicant um

6:00

had purchased uh the property um I

6:03

believe in uh 2016 I want to say um and

6:09

uh in coordination uh with uh the codes

6:13

bureau uh they did um submit building

6:16

permit applications uh did have those

6:18

applications uh reviewed and approved by

6:21

the codes bureau. Um however they did

6:23

not receive the necessary review by uh

6:26

the planning bureau and uh that is of

6:28

course not um I would say the

6:31

applicant's responsibility that did not

6:32

happen internally with uh within between

6:34

the codes bureau and the planning bureau

6:37

um but it did come to our attention uh

6:39

in review of a floodplane zoning

6:42

certificate uh which was uh recently

6:44

filed uh for the property and I believe

6:46

uh the applicant kind of attested uh

6:49

during the last meeting um to uh how we

6:53

came about bringing these before the

6:55

zoning hearing board where uh they had a

6:57

variety of uh properties and uh these

7:00

seven uh the three we previously heard

7:02

and the four that will be heard tonight

7:03

uh were the ones where there was some

7:05

discrepancy and of course that was kind

7:07

of the pro purpose of the uh revised um

7:10

flood plane uh certification application

7:13

and pro review process. Um in this case

7:17

uh the uh property was uh fairly

7:20

deteriorated. Um it uh in fact the uh

7:24

structure uh just to the east of the

7:26

property uh at 1646 Market Street has

7:30

been demolished. I believe that might

7:31

have been demolished by the city. Uh so

7:33

there is kind of a gap between that

7:34

building and 1648 Market Street. Um and

7:37

so a lot of the same uh issues are

7:39

inherent in this property. Um a lengthy

7:42

history of condemnation. uh various

7:45

citations for uh legal dumping, high

7:47

grass and weeds, things of that nature.

7:49

Um and uh the plane bureau kind of tried

7:51

to look at this similarly as the uh past

7:54

reviews where we looked at it not kind

7:57

of in its current configuration but um

8:00

as we would have reviewed it had it come

8:02

to us at that time. Um and so as opposed

8:05

to um the other uh reviews, we did

8:09

actually have a recommendation uh for

8:12

this property uh that um one of the

8:15

units uh on the third floor be uh

8:18

removed from the site. Um and this is

8:20

due to uh our belief that there was

8:22

probably less of a justification for

8:24

that. It's a kind of one unitit um

8:26

studio up there on the third floor. so

8:28

it can more easily be combined with the

8:30

unit that's on the second floor uh to

8:32

create just a larger unit that can you

8:33

know accommodate a family. Um and uh the

8:38

um other issue uh is the uh

8:42

consideration of off- streetet parking.

8:44

Uh so at the rear of the lot there is

8:45

kind of a deteriorated garage. Uh it's

8:47

still intact but it doesn't look

8:49

operable. Um when we did site visits out

8:52

to the property there were just cars

8:53

kind of parked in front of the garage

8:55

door in the alley. Um and so the

8:59

requirement the off street parking

9:00

requirements for a three-unit building

9:01

would be four spaces whereas for a

9:03

two-unit building they'd be two. So the

9:05

impact uh with respect to the off street

9:07

parking would be doubled between two and

9:09

three. And again between that and the

9:11

justifications inherent in the property

9:13

we felt that uh the um proposal that we

9:18

felt that a conversion to two units

9:19

would be more appropriate than one for

9:21

three. Uh so with that being said uh the

9:24

planning commission recommended that the

9:26

zoning hearing board approved the

9:27

request uh with the following

9:29

conditions. Uh the applicant should be

9:31

limited to two units on site in contrast

9:32

to other similar applications filed by

9:34

the applicant. Subject property was

9:36

transferred between entities owned by or

9:38

affiliated with the applicant and was

9:40

not purchased from a different

9:41

individual or entity as part of the t

9:42

judicial sale. Additionally granting

9:44

approval for two units would minimize

9:46

deviation from the zoning code and

9:48

reduce the impacts on the adjacent

9:49

properties and surrounding neighborhood.

9:51

If granted zoning approval to formalize

9:53

a conversion to either two or three

9:54

units, the applicant shall allow the

9:57

codes bureau to perform a comprehensive

9:58

inspection to identify any outstanding

10:00

code violations and will receive

10:02

approval for all necessary city permits

10:03

prior to receiving a certificate of

10:06

occupancy. And again uh in coordination

10:09

with the applicant um as discussed at

10:12

the last month's meetings uh the ongoing

10:14

rental inspections they have had we do

10:16

feel that they have met their burden uh

10:19

with respect to this condition. And

10:21

finally the third is that the applicant

10:23

must either repair or demolish the

10:24

existing detached garage at the rear of

10:26

the property to establish a formal legal

10:28

off- streetet parking space for

10:29

residents. And that's largely uh just to

10:31

ensure that that rear space can be used

10:34

uh to provide some accommodation of

10:36

parking for tenants and their guests. Uh

10:38

again, whether that's fixing it up and

10:40

just using it as is or demolishing the

10:42

whole thing and creating a parking pad.

10:44

Uh the planning commission recommends

10:46

the zoning hearing board to approve the

10:47

request for the following reasons. Uh

10:49

while the circumstances surrounding the

10:51

past conversion are unclear, the

10:52

planning bureau can confirm a history of

10:54

condemnations related to property

10:56

maintenance and insufficient utilities

10:57

on site and notes the conditions of the

10:59

abuing property required it to be

11:01

demolished somewhat recently in post uh

11:04

August 2023. As such, there appears to

11:06

be or have been some justification for

11:08

conversion to multiple units, although

11:09

the bureau believes that only two units

11:11

are justified. And also, the property is

11:13

located in a mixeduse corridor featuring

11:15

convenience stores, churches, and other

11:17

converted properties. and thus a

11:18

two-unit conversion would not create

11:20

adverse impacts on the surrounding

11:21

neighborhood.

11:24

>> Okay.

11:26

All right, Mr. Schopes. Uh then you can

11:29

testify in support of the application.

11:31

>> Uh I have uh coordinated with Mr. Niter

11:35

over I want to say

11:38

shortly after the last planning meeting

11:41

I agreed to the to the uh his

11:43

recommendations and uh it it it makes

11:45

sense. The the garage needs to go. The

11:47

garage is dilapitated. It got boarded up

11:50

basically when it became used in the

11:53

neighborhood by as a dumping ground and

11:55

not by for parking for the for the folks

11:57

that were living there. And so that

11:59

became a problem. And so it just it just

12:00

got closed up and and so it's been

12:03

dilapitated over time. Needs to be

12:05

demolished and removed and made into a

12:06

parking pad. The space that's that's

12:08

beneath it, it's it's a slab. It's a

12:10

concrete slab inside the garage. So it

12:12

will support the parking. So that's the

12:13

simplest um remedy there. Uh, as for the

12:17

third floor apartment, we had some

12:19

discussion there, I believe, at the

12:20

planning commission as to how to address

12:22

the uh the long-standing tenant there.

12:24

Uh, we've already um offered to and

12:28

moved that tenant to another apartment

12:30

to have. And so, he's he is that is now

12:32

vacant. It's been closed up. Power shut

12:35

off. There's no longer water supply

12:37

going to the third floor. There are

12:39

plans uh after this uh assuming assuming

12:43

approval here at the board here this

12:45

evening to go ahead and incorporate that

12:48

into the second floor unit as Mr. Knight

12:50

has uh described. It's easy enough to

12:52

do. It's just another stairwell and

12:54

we'll a partition wall to to make that

12:56

uh transition easier. Um, I don't think

12:59

there's a lot else to say here other

13:01

than to recognize that uh I believe in

13:03

my last meeting. Uh, this this property

13:06

was was an example I had used as to how

13:08

we had uh originally gotten to this

13:11

point in that that this was a property

13:12

that one of the codes inspectors had

13:14

come to and we had gone down to the

13:16

basement and seen whether it was a three

13:17

gang uh gas meter installed. So, this

13:21

had been a three unit at some point in

13:23

time or at least there had been three

13:25

gas meters at one point in time. don't

13:27

know that I could say that it had been a

13:28

three-unit. Uh certainly it was not in

13:30

the configuration that we had done.

13:32

>> Right.

13:33

>> Uh so so I I think uh Mr. Knight is is

13:37

spot on here that we can easily

13:38

incorporate the third floor unit into

13:40

the second floor that makes it u a

13:42

little more profitable. Certainly uh

13:45

still allows for for rooms uh to to rent

13:47

and that kind of thing. Um so I I don't

13:50

see any issue with that moving forward.

13:53

And with the with the parking then,

13:55

right, even even with that the garage

13:57

being removed, the the parking pad is

13:59

still there. But is it just gonna it'll

14:02

be one space? I understand they're going

14:04

to require two with two units, right?

14:07

Two spaces.

14:08

>> It's a double wide garage.

14:10

>> Okay. So, it can accommodate

14:11

>> wide enough and on the uh on the parking

14:13

pad there to support two vehicles.

14:15

>> Okay. All right.

14:17

>> It's a tight fit, but it's just barely

14:19

wide enough.

14:20

>> It's a tight fit.

14:21

>> Okay. All right.

14:22

>> Walmart parking lot fit,

14:24

>> right?

14:30

>> Good evening, sir.

14:31

>> Thank you.

14:32

>> Yes, I tend to be a Mosy Parker. I

14:34

actually went past your building and

14:36

went in the back too for the garage

14:38

where you're going to put the pan out.

14:40

Um, and yes, that's going to be a very

14:43

interesting navigating cars down to get

14:45

to get around that corner to move into

14:48

that. But, um, I think you

14:51

recommendation from planning is status

14:54

32

14:59

park usage

15:01

go I actually I went looking for 1644

15:05

and I said that's a that's a lot that's

15:07

they already took you already took that

15:09

down so but any you guys have any

15:12

interest in basically maybe acquiring

15:14

that and additional housing there

15:17

>> are we talking about the vacant lot

15:19

>> yes Uh, no I don't think so.

15:22

>> Last and we always ask the financial

15:25

question a little bit and these this is

15:27

going to be apartments instead of a

15:29

room.

15:30

>> Yes. Yes. I'm sorry. I I I I mistakenly

15:33

said the room were room but it simply

15:35

means instead of a two-bedroom it'll be

15:36

a three-bedroom apartment.

15:38

>> Okay. Yeah. Clarification on that and

15:42

>> pricing fair market.

15:44

>> Fair market value. Yes.

15:45

>> Okay. I I actually had that discussion

15:48

with somebody we use for fair market

15:50

value.

15:50

>> It's tough.

15:51

>> Do you understand that in Harrisburg

15:53

with six different sections of

15:55

Harrisburg? Um the income levels in

15:59

those areas vary. Okay. And it's it's

16:03

not flat. You market values in

16:05

Harrisburg, but you take that in

16:06

consideration because of the area where

16:09

the property is going to be located and

16:11

and the people who are going to be

16:12

moving into that, your your customers.

16:15

Yes,

16:16

>> you take that in consideration.

16:17

>> Absolutely. The market the market tells

16:19

us exactly what it is that fair market

16:22

there because uh once it's been on the

16:24

market for two months at a certain price

16:26

point, you you have to bring the price

16:29

point down or or you just have a vacant

16:31

building. We've been in business long

16:33

enough, you know, after 12 years to to

16:35

know what that is. And we we've tried to

16:38

stay just a hair below in hopes that

16:43

maybe we get I I don't know potentially

16:47

longer lasting tenants. Um I don't know

16:49

that that's been the case, but we've had

16:51

COVID in the middle of all that. So it's

16:52

really hard to to say. I thought we were

16:54

doing quite well before. Since then,

16:56

maybe not so much.

16:59

>> 19th Street going down to 13th Street.

17:02

That was

17:04

it was five and then the It's

17:07

deteriorated.

17:08

>> So your customer base there

17:11

>> is a little bit different than what it

17:13

was when I grew up here and when I went

17:15

to school used to walk past

17:16

>> couldn't couldn't agree more. One of the

17:18

most compartmentalized cities I've been

17:19

in.

17:23

So thank you.

17:28

>> Yeah, I'm good. I mean, based on the

17:29

context of all of the applicants

17:32

applications and the cases that we're

17:34

we're hearing on his behalf, um, you

17:37

know, as long as there's agreement to

17:38

the conditions, which it seems as there

17:40

is raised, then I'm clear on everything.

17:43

>> And I spoke

17:45

before, you know, it had already been

17:47

converted and I, you know, was less in

17:50

my hair. Got up there. I I know a lot of

17:53

your applications are places that you're

17:55

converting your multi family dwellings,

17:57

but seems like they have been converted

17:59

before and now we're just cleaning up

18:01

the paperwork making sure it's

18:03

>> it's legal. So

18:05

>> there there should be consistency across

18:07

the departments I would think.

18:08

>> Right.

18:09

>> Yes.

18:10

>> Okay. Are you ready for a motion?

18:13

>> Okay. So is there a motion uh to approve

18:17

application 2634 which is a special

18:20

exception to establish a two-unit multif

18:23

family dwelling? Um no relief for

18:26

parking is ne is necessary and also um

18:30

also approved the two uh the two

18:33

dimensional variances

18:35

uh one for the specific criteria

18:38

uh for a multif family dwelling

18:40

conversion and one for the uh density

18:42

requirements

18:44

um con and uh along with the conditions

18:47

established by the planning commission.

18:50

>> Motion.

18:51

>> Okay. Is there a second?

18:52

>> Second.

18:53

>> All right. All in favor?

18:54

>> I.

18:55

>> All right. So then with that, obviously,

18:57

Mr. Shokes, then decision will be sent

19:00

uh to you and we'll move on to the next

19:03

one. And

19:07

Mr. Knight, we can consider yourself

19:09

sworn in for this one as well. And I

19:13

believe it is the same applicant,

19:15

correct?

19:16

>> Okay. Mr. Shes, then we can you can

19:19

consider yourself sworn in as well.

19:21

>> Yes, sir.

19:22

>> Okay.

19:23

All right. So, we have 2635

19:27

>> 1901 Forester Street, right?

19:30

>> Y.

19:30

>> Okay.

19:32

>> All reading the exhibits and then turn

19:34

it over to Mr. Knight. So, um,

19:38

we have proof of publication April 5 and

19:41

April 12, 2026. B2, letter sent from

19:44

planning director to applicant notifying

19:46

of the hearing. B3, hearing notice

19:48

posted on the property. B4, notification

19:51

letter sent to neighbors and certificate

19:52

of mailing. B5, application packet with

19:55

photos of the property and floor plans.

19:57

B6, power of attorney authorizing

19:59

applicant as agent and attorney in fact

20:01

of the property. B7, deed establishing

20:04

the owner of the property. B8, planning

20:06

bureau case report. B9, city of

20:08

Harrisburg planning commission

20:09

resolution. B10, the proof of

20:12

publication for tonight's meeting, May 3

20:14

and May 10, 2026.

20:16

and a letter uh sent from the planning

20:18

director to the applicant notifying of

20:20

tonight's hearing. So, we got B1 through

20:22

B11. And with that, I will turn it over

20:25

to Mr. Knight. Uh so, yes, this uh case

20:30

um is u similar but slightly different

20:32

uh than the last one. Um the application

20:36

for 1901 Forester Street uh involves the

20:38

conversion of an existing single family

20:40

dwelling into a two-unit multif family

20:42

dwelling uh which requires zoning

20:44

hearing bird approval of special

20:45

exceptions for the proposed use and

20:47

relief from off- streetet parking

20:48

requirements per section 7-305.7

20:51

7-327.6

20:53

of the zoning code respectively. uh but

20:55

only one variance uh for relief from the

20:57

density regulations in section 7-307.3

21:00

of the zoning code as the lot itself is

21:02

large enough uh or sorry as the building

21:04

itself is large enough to be converted

21:06

to multiple units um by right in

21:08

conformance with the specific criteria.

21:10

Uh so this um property again similar uh

21:15

to the last one in that it has a

21:17

detached garage in the back uh with um

21:20

at least space for one vehicle. Um and

21:23

the building itself was converted uh

21:25

some point in the past again in

21:27

coordination uh with uh the codes

21:30

bureau. Um and the um lack of interior

21:33

of internal coordination between the

21:35

codes bureau and the planning bureau is

21:36

why this issue is now being is is being

21:39

addressed now and not uh back then um

21:42

when the uh conversion occurred. Uh in

21:45

contrast to the last case uh though this

21:47

property is a corner lot. Um so it does

21:50

have a significant amount of frontage uh

21:53

along both Forester Street and 19th

21:55

Street. Um, so in the event that the uh

21:59

detached garage at the rear of the

22:00

property, which does seem operable, much

22:02

more so than the last property, um, is

22:05

only able to accommodate one car, uh,

22:07

the applicant does have, um, the

22:11

sufficient on street frontage along the

22:12

property to accommodate any, uh,

22:14

additional demand from tenants or, uh,

22:17

their guests. Uh and uh therefore the

22:21

planning commission uh recommends the

22:23

zoning hearing board approve the request

22:24

with the following conditions. Uh

22:26

granted zoning approval to move forward

22:28

with the project as proposed. The

22:29

applicant shall allow the codes bureau

22:30

bureau to perform a comprehensive

22:32

inspection to identify any outstanding

22:34

code issues and will receive approval

22:36

for all necessary city permits prior to

22:37

receiving a certificate of occupancy. Uh

22:40

the planning commission recommends the

22:42

zoning hearing board to approve the

22:43

request for the following reasons. In

22:44

contrast to other such conversions, the

22:46

structure itself is large enough for a

22:48

buy right conversion to two units, thus

22:50

reducing the amount intensity of zoning

22:51

relief and providing some justification

22:53

for the current request. And as a

22:55

current lot, as a corner lot, the

22:57

property has a onecar detached garage

22:59

and enough frontage along both 19th

23:00

Street and Forester Street to reasonably

23:03

accommodate the two off- streetet

23:04

parking spaces required for the use,

23:06

thereby reducing the impact of the

23:07

presumed increase in parking demand on

23:09

the surrounding residents.

23:11

>> Okay. And um Mr. Tonight you you prepare

23:15

the planning bureau case reports.

23:16

Correct.

23:17

>> That's correct.

23:18

>> Okay. And do you adopt that as your

23:20

testimony that complete report instead

23:22

of stating everything and reading it

23:24

into the record?

23:25

>> Yes.

23:26

>> Okay. Good. All right. Um

23:29

then we can turn over Mr. Sch. Go ahead.

23:33

>> I'm in agreement.

23:37

The battery power is not in agreement.

23:40

Okay.

23:40

>> But I'll speak louder. I'm in agreement

23:42

with

23:50

pass.

23:51

>> Are you good?

23:52

>> Everybody good?

23:53

>> This was Yeah, I you answered the

23:56

questions to 1644. It's the same thing.

23:58

I I did see there's no parking

24:01

requirements there parking on both 19th

24:03

Street and Officer Street. So that

24:05

satisfies the question I have.

24:07

>> Okay. And Mr. folks, right? This is like

24:09

a just a similar situation that you had

24:12

with the prior application that we had,

24:15

you know, with dilapidated property and

24:17

all that kind of thing, right? That you

24:19

upgra significantly upgraded, right?

24:22

>> Correct. It was uh primarily

24:23

distribution for

24:26

illicit materials uh in the neighborhood

24:29

for a long time. So, we converted it

24:32

from the storefront

24:34

that it had to

24:36

a stairwell entry. I don't know if you

24:38

remember the door when you look up there

24:39

in the front, you can see how it used to

24:40

be a sandwich shop or corner store. Uh

24:43

that's actually an entry stairwell up to

24:46

the second floor apartment. So they have

24:47

wide enough stairwell to be able to get

24:50

furniture up and down. It's 4 and 1/2 ft

24:52

wide there. Um so u that uh kind of put

24:56

an end to it. Uh so after we showed a

24:58

little bit of love in the neighborhood

25:00

uh that activity stopped

25:02

>> and it's been operating, you know, as

25:05

the uh two-unit multif family dwelling

25:08

>> last eight years, right? Yep.

25:10

>> Yes.

25:11

>> Okay. With that, uh do I have a motion

25:13

to approve application 2635, the special

25:17

exceptions requested and the dimensional

25:19

variance requested?

25:20

>> So move.

25:21

>> Okay. Is there a second?

25:22

>> Second.

25:23

>> Okay. Let me go back. A motion to

25:26

approve with the conditions. Weren't

25:27

there conditions? Yes, there were

25:29

>> one condition. Yeah.

25:30

>> Okay. Well, let me go back. Uh, is there

25:32

a motion to approve application 2635,

25:35

the special exceptions requested and the

25:37

dimensional variance subject to the uh

25:39

conditions stated by the planning

25:41

commission?

25:42

>> So, move.

25:43

>> Okay. Is there a second?

25:44

>> Second.

25:45

>> Okay. All in favor?

25:47

>> I.

25:47

>> Okay. See, we'll get a decision out to

25:50

Mr. Sch on that one. Now, let's see. We

25:54

have

25:57

2636

26:00

and I'll ask uh Mr. Knight that um

26:04

obviously you'll consider yourself sworn

26:06

in for this application as well.

26:08

Correct.

26:08

>> Correct.

26:09

>> All right, Mr. Shes um you consider

26:12

yourself sworn in for this application

26:13

as well. Correct.

26:14

>> Yes, sir.

26:15

>> All right. So, we got 2636 the address

26:19

2040 North 4th Street.

26:22

um same applicant. Um and I will read in

26:25

the exhibits and then turn it over to

26:27

Mr. Knight. Um basically there are the

26:30

same exhibits but we got to read them

26:31

in. So B1, proof of publication April 5

26:34

and April 12, 2026. B2 letter sent from

26:38

planning director to the applicant

26:39

notifying at the hearing. B3 hearing

26:41

notice posted on the property. B4

26:44

notification letter sent to neighbors

26:45

and certificate of mailing. B5

26:47

application packet with photos of the

26:49

property and floor plans. B6, power of

26:52

attorney authorizing applicant as agent

26:54

and attorney in fact of the property.

26:56

B7, deed establish establishing the

26:58

owner of the property. B8, planning

27:00

bureau case report. B9, city of

27:02

Harrisburg planning commission

27:03

resolution. B10, proof of publication

27:05

for tonight's meeting uh and the Patriot

27:07

news May 3, 2026 and May 10, 2026. Then

27:11

a letter sent from the planning director

27:13

to the applicant notifying of tonight's

27:15

hearing. So we got B1 through B11.

27:19

And with that, Mr. Knight, go ahead.

27:21

>> Uh, yeah. So, the applicant for case

27:24

number 2636, um, similar uh to the last

27:27

two proposals, um, and will be similar

27:29

to the next, uh, which is the adjacent

27:31

property, um, requiring the special

27:34

exceptions for the proposed use and the

27:36

relief from the off- streetet parking

27:37

requirements and variances for the

27:40

relief from the density and specific

27:41

criteria regulations. And this is also

27:43

an after the-act application. Uh this

27:46

property is a similar history uh to the

27:50

other two properties in that there was a

27:52

uh lengthy record of condemnations

27:55

um of uh utility shut offs of uh legal

27:59

dumping uh on the property and uh prior

28:02

to the purchase by the applicant. Um and

28:05

uh the applicant uh in fact you can see

28:08

some of the uh exterior issues that that

28:11

the property had. I believe there's a

28:12

big um parched or uh vinyl sighting on

28:15

the side uh where some of the um siding

28:19

uh previously started to uh rode away.

28:21

So uh the conditions of the property

28:24

itself and the structure uh do uh

28:27

provide justification for that

28:29

conversion to multiple units. It's

28:31

likely without uh you know a um

28:34

allowance of multiple units on site. Uh

28:36

the properties would probably suffer the

28:39

same um fate as the adjacent properties

28:41

which are both vacant lots due to um

28:44

buildings on those lots being torn down.

28:47

Um and uh due to the fact that uh the uh

28:52

adjacent properties uh have been

28:54

demolished um and uh the property across

28:57

the street which occupies about half the

29:00

block uh is a church with its own

29:02

surface parking lot on site. Uh there is

29:05

um sufficient on street parking to

29:07

accommodate the two off- streetet

29:09

parking uh spaces required by the uh

29:12

required for the two uh unit use. Uh

29:15

because the rear of the property uh due

29:17

to topographical issues um it's not easy

29:20

to access that uh for off- streetet

29:22

parking without significant um uh uh

29:27

removal of soil and you know creating

29:29

retaining walls and things of that

29:30

nature. Uh there is about probably a

29:32

three-foot difference between where the

29:34

road is at in the back and the uh uh

29:36

level of the backyard. Um so uh with

29:39

that being said uh the planning

29:41

commission is recommending the zoning

29:42

hearing board approve the request with

29:44

the following conditions and same

29:46

condition as last one. Uh if granted

29:48

zoning approval to move forward with the

29:49

project as proposed the applicant shall

29:51

allow the codes bureau to perform a

29:52

comprehensive inspection to identify any

29:54

outstanding code violations and will

29:56

receive approval for all necessary city

29:57

permits prior to receiving an updated

29:59

certificate of occupancy. Uh the

30:01

planning commission recommends that the

30:02

zoning hearing board approved the

30:04

request for the following reasons.

30:05

property had a history of condemnations

30:07

for various building code deficiencies

30:08

over the years prior to the applicant's

30:10

ownership, potentially requiring more

30:12

investment than would be viable for

30:13

rehabilitation as a single family

30:15

dwelling. As such, there is

30:16

justification for the allowance of an

30:18

additional unit that would be permitted

30:19

by Wright. Uh the project reconstructed

30:22

a bleeding influence and attractive

30:23

nuisance and two units that will

30:24

contribute to the housing inventory in

30:26

the city and the neighborhood and

30:28

appears to have had a positive impact on

30:31

the amount and frequency of illegal

30:32

dumping on the adjacent vacant lots and

30:35

existing conditions of the property and

30:36

its context within the neighborhood.

30:38

Specifically, the availability of on

30:39

street parking along North Fourth Street

30:41

due to the abuing vacant lots and the

30:43

vacant church across the street mean the

30:45

proposed increase in residential density

30:46

would have a limited impact on the

30:48

surrounding community.

30:51

>> Okay. And Mr. Knight, just like the last

30:53

one, you prepared the planning bureau

30:55

case report. Correct.

30:56

>> Correct.

30:56

>> And you would adopt that also as

30:59

additional testimony in this matter.

31:00

>> Correct.

31:01

>> All right. Okay. Uh Mr. Shes,

31:04

>> um I am in agreement with everything

31:06

that Mr. and I just described.

31:08

>> Okay.

31:09

>> It's pretty straightforward.

31:10

>> Okay. And uh you prepared the

31:12

application and the attachments.

31:14

>> Yes, sir.

31:14

>> Okay. And submitted that. You adopt that

31:16

as your testimony as well. Yes, sir.

31:18

Okay.

31:18

>> Any questions for this one?

31:24

>> Okay.

31:27

>> Okay. Uh so um

31:32

do I have a motion uh to uh approve

31:35

application 2636 and the special

31:38

exceptions requested and the dimensional

31:41

variances requested with the uh subject

31:44

to the conditions established by the

31:46

planning commission?

31:48

>> Motion.

31:48

>> Okay. Do I have a second?

31:50

>> Second.

31:50

>> All right. All in favor?

31:52

>> I

31:52

>> Okay. Take the decision out for that.

31:56

And the last

32:00

this one.

32:08

Okay.

32:09

26372042

32:12

North Fourth Street. And again, Mr.

32:14

Knight, uh, consider yourself, uh, sworn

32:17

in for this application as well.

32:18

Correct. Correct.

32:19

>> Okay. Mr. Schultz, same. Consider

32:21

yourself sworn in for this application

32:23

as well?

32:24

>> Yes, sir.

32:24

>> Okay.

32:26

I'll read in the exhibits. Uh B1, proof

32:28

of publication, April 1 and April 12,

32:30

2026. B2, letter sent from planning

32:33

director to applicant notifying of the

32:34

hearing. B3, hearing notice posted on

32:37

the property. B4, notification letter

32:39

sent to neighbors and certificate of

32:41

mailing. B5, application packet, photos

32:44

of property and floor plans. B6, power

32:47

of attorney authorizing applicant as

32:49

agent and attorney fact of the property.

32:51

B7, deed establishing the owner of the

32:53

property. B8, Planning Bureau case

32:55

report. B9, City of Harrisburg Planning

32:57

Commission resolution. B10, proof of

33:00

publication, May 3 and May 10, 2026 for

33:03

tonight's meeting. And B11, letter sent

33:06

from planning director to applicant

33:08

notifying of tonight's hearing. With

33:10

that, I'll turn it over to Mr. Knight.

33:13

>> Uh, yes. So, this uh final uh

33:16

application in in the group um

33:18

represented by Mr. chokes uh for 2637

33:21

for 2042 North Fourth Street uh requires

33:25

two special exceptions for the proposed

33:27

for the multif family dwelling use uh

33:29

and the relief from off street parking

33:31

uh and two variances for relief from the

33:33

density and specific criteria

33:34

regulations uh and is an after the-act

33:36

application. Uh while the properties are

33:40

um ab budding and conjoined, uh there

33:43

actually are some minor differences

33:44

between the two, but um regarding the

33:47

the size and some access points at the

33:49

rear of the property. Uh but the

33:51

properties themselves and the structures

33:53

themselves um uh are similar in the

33:56

history of condemnations and uh um uh

34:00

the utility shut offs and uh a variety

34:05

of violations issued by the codes bureau

34:06

over the years prior to the applicant's

34:08

ownership. Um and uh the applicant uh uh

34:13

post owning post uh purchasing the

34:15

property uh did put a significant amount

34:18

investment in with uh coordination at

34:20

the codes bureau uh and did um

34:23

rehabilitate what was an attractive

34:25

nuisance and a blighting influence on

34:26

the block and uh as previously noted um

34:30

likely maybe save the uh buildings

34:32

themselves from having to be torn down.

34:34

Um and uh the context of the property

34:37

along North Fourth Street with uh

34:40

respect to the vacant lots and the um

34:42

vacant church across the street uh

34:44

create the same support for the uh

34:47

relief from the off- streetet parking

34:49

requirements uh and the same

34:51

topographical issues exist at the rear

34:52

of the property as they did at the uh

34:54

property at 242 North Fourth Street. Um

34:57

and therefore the uh planning bureau's

35:00

recom or planning commission's

35:01

recommendations

35:03

are similar in that they are

35:04

recommending the zoning hearing board

35:06

approve the request with the following

35:08

conditions. Uh if granted zoning

35:09

approval to move forward with the

35:10

project as proposed. The applicant shall

35:12

allow the codes to perform a

35:14

comprehensive inspection to identify any

35:16

outstanding code violations and will

35:18

receive approval for all necessary city

35:20

permits prior to receiving an updated

35:22

certificate of occupancy. Uh the

35:25

planning commission recommends the

35:26

zoning hearing board would approve the

35:27

request for the following reasons. The

35:29

property had a history of condemnations

35:31

for various building code deficiencies

35:32

over the years prior to the applicant's

35:34

ownership, potentially requiring more

35:35

investment than would be viable for

35:37

rehabilitation as a single family

35:38

dwelling. As such, their justification

35:40

for the allowance of an additional unit

35:42

than would be permitted by Wright. The

35:44

project reconstructed a lighting

35:45

influence and attractive nuisance into

35:47

units that will contribute to the

35:48

housing inventory in the city and the

35:49

neighborhood and appears to have had a

35:51

positive impact on the amount and

35:53

frequency of illegal dumping on the

35:54

adjacent vacant lots. And finally,

35:56

existing conditions of the property and

35:58

its context within the neighborhood,

36:00

specifically the availability of on

36:01

street parking along North Fourth Street

36:03

due to the abuing vacant lots and the

36:04

vacant church across the street mean the

36:07

proposed increase in residential density

36:08

should have a limited impact on the

36:10

surrounding community.

36:13

And Mr. Knight, once again, you prepared

36:15

the plan bureau case report, correct?

36:17

>> Correct.

36:17

>> And you adopt that as your testimony

36:19

tonight?

36:20

>> Yes, I do.

36:20

>> Okay. Mr. Sh.

36:22

>> Yes, sir.

36:24

>> Okay. Anything to add uh from what Mr.

36:27

Knight's testimony was?

36:28

>> Only to state that we're in agreement

36:29

with the cases presented by Mr. Knight.

36:32

>> Okay. And uh again, you prepared the uh

36:35

application and uh the attachments,

36:38

photos, floor plans, all that.

36:40

>> Yes, sir. You you at least attached it,

36:42

reviewed it, all that type of thing.

36:43

Correct.

36:44

>> Absolutely.

36:44

>> Okay. And uh you adopt that as your

36:46

testimony here tonight?

36:48

>> Yes, sir.

36:48

>> Okay. Any questions?

36:55

>> No, I have one.

37:03

That empty lot.

37:08

>> You're referring to the empty lot to the

37:09

left. if you're at at there. We used to

37:11

own that. Uh we we sold that to the

37:15

gentleman who lives adjacent to that

37:17

property, one further left. So, he now

37:20

takes care of that property that's now

37:22

his. Uh in years past, I have uh taken

37:27

care of the vacant lots that are to the

37:29

right of that property and across the

37:30

street from what is now the vacant

37:32

church to help them out kind of thing.

37:35

Uh, plus there was a lot of, you know,

37:38

illegal dumping and that kind of thing.

37:39

And and since there was no one there to

37:41

actually take care of it,

37:44

we're there. So, we have been doing

37:46

that. Uh, I can't say whether or not

37:48

we've actually begun that process again

37:50

this year, but I'm sure we will.

37:53

>> Okay. With that, do I have a motion to

37:56

approve application 2637,

37:58

which are uh requests for special

38:01

exceptions and dimensional variances

38:03

subject to the conditions stated by the

38:05

planning commission?

38:08

>> Motion.

38:08

>> Do I have a second?

38:10

>> Second.

38:10

>> All in favor?

38:11

>> I.

38:12

>> Okay. So, what decision will be sent out

38:15

to you, Mr. Schol with regard to that

38:17

one? I think that concludes right the

38:19

four, right? Yep. All right. Great.

38:25

If I may, I just wish to send out a

38:27

quick thanks to uh the planning

38:28

commission's office there for

38:31

demonstrating a level of professionalism

38:32

here that that made a difficult

38:34

situation into something that was quite

38:36

manageable, I think, for everybody and

38:37

and sort of a reasonable outcome.

38:41

>> Yeah.

38:41

>> Thank you, Mr. Strokes.

38:48

>> What's that?

38:51

>> No, those are only two.

38:52

Yeah.

38:58

>> Okay. So, now we have 26 application

39:03

2638.

39:06

Uh the address 1257 1259 Walnut Street.

39:10

Uh applicant South Central PA

39:12

Restoration LLC.

39:15

Uh on behalf of uh is it Arthur Arthur

39:18

Jefferson? Okay.

39:20

>> Okay.

39:23

All right, Mr. Knight, you'll obviously

39:24

consider yourself sworn in already for

39:26

this application,

39:28

>> correct?

39:28

>> Okay. And uh so let's identify for the

39:33

applicant. We have Arthur Jefferson. And

39:35

who else is with him?

39:37

>> Uh good evening. My name is Duran

39:40

Sawyers.

39:41

>> And could you spell that for me?

39:43

>> Yes, it is D A R an last name Sawyers. S

39:48

A W Y E R S.

39:51

>> Okay.

39:56

Okay. You swear them both in. Yeah.

40:04

>> Yes.

40:06

>> And so, Mr. Jefferson, you're uh with

40:09

the South Central PA Restorations.

40:11

>> Yes, we're both owners of South Central

40:13

PA Restoration.

40:14

>> Okay. Both owners. Sorry.

40:17

Okay.

40:25

>> Okay. Mr. Knight.

40:26

>> Yes.

40:27

>> Uh let you know forgot to read them in.

40:29

Yeah.

40:29

>> Okay.

40:30

>> All right. So, the exhibits are uh B1

40:33

applicants request for a continuence

40:36

um uh to tonight's hearing.

40:40

B2 is a proof of publication May 3 and

40:43

May 10, 2026. B3

40:46

is the letter uh sent from planning

40:48

director to the applicant notifying of

40:50

the hearing. B4 hearing notice posted on

40:53

the property. B5 notification letter

40:55

sent to neighbors. B6 application packet

40:58

with photos of property and plans for

40:59

the proposal. B7 Harrisburg

41:02

redevelopment authority resolution

41:04

authorizing applicant to develop the

41:05

property. B8 the planning bureau case

41:08

report. B9 city of Harrisburg planning

41:10

commission resolution. So we have B1

41:12

through B9. Now Mr. Go ahead.

41:15

>> Uh so uh the application for case number

41:18

2638

41:20

uh involves the um consolidation of the

41:24

subject parcels and the construction of

41:27

a three-story six-unit multif family

41:29

dwelling with a rooftop patio common

41:31

area. Uh the project requires zoning

41:34

hearing board approval of two special

41:36

exceptions. uh one for the proposed

41:38

multif family dwelling use and relief

41:40

from the off- streetet parking

41:42

requirements for the uh proposed

41:44

development per section 7-305.7

41:47

and 7-327.6

41:49

of the zoning code respectively and two

41:51

variances for relief from the density

41:53

and allowable building widths width

41:55

regulations in section 7-307.3

41:59

of the zoning code. The project will

42:01

include three one-bedroom units and

42:04

three two-bedroom units. Uh so the

42:06

project site uh is comprised of two

42:09

vacant lots. Um they've been vacant for

42:12

um decades I think uh somewhere around

42:15

30 years almost. Um and uh they've

42:18

remained that way uh all this time. Um

42:21

there's you know v at varying times it's

42:24

been used for illegal parking for some

42:26

dumping. Uh there's been um you know

42:29

unmaintained vegetation on site. Uh so

42:32

uh the planning bureau feels uh that the

42:35

uh subject proposal uh represents a good

42:38

infill development. Uh the building

42:40

itself uh will generally be in

42:42

conformance uh with most of the

42:44

development standards with respect to

42:46

the building height uh setback and

42:48

impervious surface coverage. Um and uh

42:52

as uh the uh application notes, um the

42:56

applicants are also proposing a somewhat

42:59

unique co-op uh housing um configuration

43:03

uh and structure. Uh and uh the

43:07

intention is to make the um units

43:10

available to people I believe making up

43:12

to 60% of the median family income. Uh

43:16

so um we're not quite sure off the top

43:19

of our head whether it's going to be

43:21

submitted through the um affordable

43:22

housing uh certification program or not.

43:25

And I think that's just due to whether

43:26

the co-op ownership um uh proposal that

43:30

they're doing. Uh but um certainly if

43:33

they are uh going to be submitting

43:35

through that and that'll be worked out

43:36

through the land development plan

43:38

process that they'll be uh following

43:41

subsequent uh to this review. Um it

43:43

would reduce the amount of uh deviation

43:46

from the zoning code. Um they'd only be

43:48

required to provide three uh vehicles

43:51

instead of um seven or three off-

43:54

streetet parking spaces instead of seven

43:55

off- streetet parking spaces and they

43:58

would be able to uh to build four units

44:00

on site instead of the two units uh that

44:02

they would be permitted for a market

44:04

rate uh development. Um, as noted in the

44:07

site plans, uh, the applicants will be,

44:10

you know, keeping the building, um,

44:12

separated from the adjacent structures.

44:14

Uh, it's enclosed on all three sides,

44:16

uh, besides, um, Walnut Street, uh, by

44:19

buildings and, uh, other improved

44:21

properties. Um, and, uh, they'll be

44:24

having setbacks to allow those owners to

44:26

be able to access those properties. Uh,

44:28

that also, uh, impacts basically, uh,

44:32

whether, uh, they can provide any

44:34

parking on site. Um, so they obviously

44:38

can't can't access the rear of the lot.

44:39

They'd have to go through the front, um,

44:41

which would mean a new curb cut onto the

44:44

property, uh, which would both, uh,

44:46

remove, uh, publicly accessible on

44:48

streets parking, uh, but given the

44:51

required, uh, spaces, uh, and, uh, drive

44:54

widths. Um, it's likely that they

44:56

couldn't do any development on the first

44:57

floor. So, they'd have to elevate um

44:59

everything up a uh a floor, which may

45:03

necessitate additional um uh zoning

45:06

relief for things like uh exceeding the

45:08

maximum building height. Uh it may also

45:10

make the project itself infeasible. Uh

45:14

because I believe going above three

45:15

floors requires an elevator which is

45:17

obviously a significant cost uh uh to a

45:21

project of this site uh of this type

45:23

especially one um seeking to provide the

45:26

deeply affordable units that the

45:27

applicants are planning to do. So uh for

45:30

those reasons uh we do feel uh that the

45:33

uh project um as proposed is justified.

45:36

Um it should also be noted that the uh

45:39

applicants I believe have gone through

45:41

the hard review process because the

45:42

property is in the Summit Terrace

45:44

Architectural Conservation Overlay

45:46

District area. Uh and they did get

45:48

approval um from that board. Um so

45:53

with that all being said, the planning

45:56

commission uh recommends the zoning

45:57

hearing board approve the request with

45:59

the following conditions. Uh, the

46:01

applicant must submit a lot

46:02

consolidation and land development plan

46:04

application and receive approval from

46:06

the planning commission and city

46:07

council. Uh, and the applicant must

46:09

receive approval from the Harrisburg

46:10

architectural review board. Uh, the

46:12

planning commission recommends uh, the

46:14

zoning hearing board approve the request

46:16

for the following reasons. The decadesl

46:18

long vacancy of the subject properties

46:20

demonstrates the challenges inherent in

46:22

identifying appropriate and feasible

46:24

redevelopment projects and thus supports

46:26

the requested relief for development of

46:27

a six-unit multif family dwelling. The

46:30

configuration of the property with

46:31

limited frontage along public rights

46:33

ofway and surrounded on three sides with

46:34

developed lots presents challenges

46:36

regarding access to the property and

46:38

supports the requested relief from the

46:39

off- streetet parking. Uh the project

46:42

will improve currently vacant and and

46:44

unmaintained lots with affordable units

46:46

that are pressing need in the city

46:47

generally and the neighborhood

46:49

specifically. The applicant has also

46:51

responded to a solicitation from the

46:53

city for redevelopment of the site as

46:54

affordable housing which necessitates

46:56

additional relief from the zoning

46:58

regulations.

47:00

The proposed building design

47:02

incorporates a number of novel features

47:04

for projects in the city including

47:06

including the incorporation of a rooftop

47:08

deck uh green roof and solar panel

47:11

array. The property will also be

47:13

operated as a cooperative housing model

47:15

that will retain affordability over

47:17

time.

47:19

And Mr. Knight, once again, uh you

47:21

prepared that plan your case report,

47:23

correct?

47:23

>> That is correct. Yeah.

47:24

>> And you adopt that as your testimony as

47:26

well tonight?

47:27

>> Yes, I do.

47:27

>> Okay. Now, for uh the applicant, whoever

47:31

wants to start testimony in support of

47:36

your application.

47:38

>> Um I myself don't have anything to

47:40

testify. I'm open to any questions you

47:43

guys may have, but I think Mr. Knight

47:45

said everything that need to be said.

47:47

>> Okay. All right,

47:50

>> Mr. Stories, you too.

47:52

>> Yes, sir. Um, it's been a long day, but

47:55

uh um what Mr. Knight said and um just

48:01

being in front of the uh carb review

48:04

board and the uh planning commission uh

48:08

we pretty much everything is stated in

48:10

there of uh what we plan to do, what we

48:13

would like to do for our community. Uh

48:15

we don't want to do it one time. we want

48:17

to continuously uh do this. And then

48:21

even when we were walking through the

48:23

neighborhood, just to see that uh that

48:26

property, that lot right there has been

48:28

vacant for over 30 years. uh it's uh

48:31

it's much needed for all of us who are

48:34

trying to develop, you know, to

48:36

continuously try to grow our city and

48:39

bring it back to I know when I was

48:41

raised it seemed like it was more family

48:43

oriented and less just vacant lots like

48:46

this.

48:49

>> All right, any questions from the board?

48:55

>> Sure. Good evening. Uh just a couple of

48:57

questions. number one. Uh so this here

49:01

in the write up there is uh basically a

49:04

statement saying that there you have a

49:07

comparison for by right development. Um

49:10

uh basically comparing that to the

49:11

proposed project. Can you talk about I

49:14

guess uh perspective on financial

49:17

hardship or inability to develop um

49:20

within the the guidelines?

49:24

>> I don't know if I understood your

49:26

question fully. So basically right uh I

49:31

guess in the sense there's a for

49:32

variance right there's kind of a burden

49:35

of proof that you're not able to develop

49:39

um within the current zoning guidelines

49:42

which is what requires or it brings

49:44

forth your request for a zoning

49:46

variance. So I'm just wondering if you

49:48

could provide some insight into your

49:50

inability to develop based off of the

49:52

current guidelines.

49:54

>> Right. Why you pick the number of units,

49:57

you know what I mean, six instead of

49:58

something less, you know?

50:01

>> Well, we we noticed that there's a need

50:03

for the six units in the area. Um that's

50:06

what made us pick six. Um as well as uh

50:10

the the the request for the the zoning.

50:13

I'm thinking that's what you're talking

50:14

about, right? Like why did we request

50:16

these exceptions and variances, right?

50:18

>> So, um as Mr. night stated earlier is

50:22

that um with the parking we can't we we

50:27

financially we can't afford to uh to

50:30

build an extra store. Not only when we

50:32

talked to the mayor she said it ain't

50:33

happening on top. So, she already said

50:35

that, but um again, to have to put an

50:39

elevator in there is is is is a couple

50:42

bucks uh uh to the hundreds of thousands

50:45

of which already we're going with

50:47

affordable housing and it's hard enough

50:48

to raise the money that we have already

50:50

raised. So, that was one reason for

50:53

that. And um the the parking with the uh

50:58

the street cuts, we didn't think that

51:01

that would even look right in the

51:03

community. We felt as though if we cut

51:05

because I don't know if you guys have

51:07

the pictures in front of you, but we

51:08

have a permeable area right there where

51:11

we want to we want to do the whole

51:13

street like that. Um, we want people to

51:16

walk around. We don't want you to have

51:17

to weave through cars just to get to the

51:20

from one side of the house to the other

51:22

side of the house. If that makes any

51:24

sense to you.

51:26

>> And and then also you said why six and

51:30

not four? Um

51:32

when when you when we go through old

51:35

parcels or whatnot, there's a lot of

51:38

mess that we are charged for cleaning up

51:43

from the city's situations prior to us

51:47

that it's so costly that four units it

51:51

wouldn't do us just for us to build

51:54

there. You know, uh I don't think six

51:57

would be enough, but that is probably

51:58

the most that we could have asked for

52:00

for those two locks, you know, we

52:02

couldn't go any higher or whatnot

52:05

>> based on the architectural review area

52:08

of that area some materials.

52:11

>> Go ahead, Mr. Yeah. And I was going to

52:13

say I think the applicants also noted

52:15

something relatively unique to these

52:16

properties is that they the PA1 call uh

52:20

they performed uh didn't identify any of

52:22

the subsurface uh utility lines which is

52:25

even for vacant lots in the city that

52:27

the city has taken down over the last

52:29

couple decades. Uh there's still usually

52:31

a sewer hookup or a water line or

52:33

something like that. And the PA1 call uh

52:35

didn't even identify those. So it may I

52:37

mean it may be longer than 30 years that

52:39

this has been vacant. Our records are

52:41

very unclear about that, but that's

52:42

going to require, you know, excavation,

52:44

running new uh underground utilities,

52:47

>> right? And I just wanted to write that

52:49

that it has been vacant for a minimum of

52:51

30 years at least.

52:53

>> Okay.

52:54

>> As far back as our records go, which are

52:55

pretty pretty consistent up until the

52:57

late 1990s.

53:01

>> All right. Questions?

53:02

>> Yes. uh can you also provide insight on

53:06

the uh what was mentioned regarding the

53:08

co-op?

53:10

>> So after um we have a compliance period

53:13

where we have to rent it out for 15

53:15

years and in our model we want to build

53:19

relationship with the community where we

53:22

can um practice generational wealth

53:24

meaning um if because each floor has two

53:29

apartments. So if on our idea of life,

53:31

if one person could own one apartment,

53:34

rent the other apartment out to whomever

53:37

that other person may be, that will

53:39

again create that a form of generational

53:42

wealth to where we're getting

53:44

supplemental income brought to each

53:46

family on each floor. If that makes any

53:48

sense to you.

53:51

>> But this doesn't occur until after that

53:53

15-year period.

53:54

>> Yeah. Our compliance period. Yes.

53:56

>> Okay.

53:58

All righty. this allow for now.

54:03

>> Good evening gentlemen.

54:05

>> Good evening.

54:09

>> My questions

54:13

around this funding source. So,

54:17

you're going to build this new

54:18

structures. What's your funding source

54:20

going to be?

54:22

>> We have um so far required a fair grant

54:26

with the PHFA. Um we also um have and

54:30

that was for 350,000 and we have a um we

54:34

were awarded the Federal Home Loan Bank

54:36

of Pittsburgh for 900,000. We have one

54:39

last um grant that we're seeking after

54:42

which is the home ARP funds for the

54:44

remaining balance of our bill.

54:48

I Mr. Hops you spoke a little bit

54:52

question a little about the co-op and

54:54

the co-op your your position on it is

54:56

that you're trying to build uh

54:59

generational wealth. So these apartments

55:04

again after 15 years they will be

55:06

available to buy or that a floor. Okay.

55:10

So you buy the floor, you get both the

55:13

who buy said he's got income coming in

55:15

to offset his cost.

55:17

>> Yes.

55:18

>> Okay. Um let's say you're laying us. How

55:22

about storm water? And the reason why I

55:25

say that is because you were downhill

55:28

from runoff a little bit from Yeah. How

55:32

you want to address it? We got a talk

55:34

region on that. Yes, we we we we had a

55:38

lot of conversation with Cal Region. Um

55:40

so we're we're we're developing that

55:42

storm water plan. We're probably about

55:44

90%

55:46

finished with the plan. Um we have to

55:49

open up the street and we're going to

55:51

run our storm water. You you would think

55:54

it would go down towards the capital,

55:55

but that's not how they're saying we

55:57

have to actually go back up towards 13th

55:59

Street.

56:00

>> Major collection point. Yes.

56:01

>> Yes.

56:02

>> Okay.

56:04

This is going to be a three uh three

56:07

story structure.

56:08

>> Yes.

56:09

>> Okay.

56:09

>> With a rooftop.

56:10

>> This is going to be more directed

56:12

towards you across the street. You're

56:15

got a head development going on at uh

56:17

what is it right there at 13th in

56:19

Walnut. I actually went out and look at

56:22

your lots and stuff. So remember they're

56:24

going to be that rehab

56:28

printing building there.

56:29

>> Correct.

56:29

>> It's right across it's almost right

56:30

across the street from their lots.

56:32

>> Yep. They were heard at the uh May 6th

56:34

meeting. Yep.

56:35

>> Okay. So, you're going to have

56:36

construction in that area, multiple uh

56:40

multiple activities. Okay. Um you ask

56:46

the city, how do you visualize the

56:48

impact on community?

56:54

>> Well, um I think the um you know, the

56:56

logistics of how to stage all that um is

56:59

probably a bit up in the air. there is a

57:02

you know there is a vacant lot that

57:04

occupies the majority of a block that's

57:06

kind of like between those two um that's

57:09

just storing parked cars at the moment

57:11

um but I imagine it's a pretty um

57:14

accessible to both project sites um and

57:17

you know from you know in addition to

57:19

the uh improvement to the streetscape um

57:23

developing vacant lots or adaptively

57:25

reusing a vacant building uh it seems

57:28

ideal to have such two such large

57:32

projects occurring at the same time

57:34

because we'll likely need to repave the

57:36

road, maybe like reset curbs, things of

57:38

that nature. And if we can do that once

57:41

while we've got two projects going on,

57:43

uh that may that reduces the overall um

57:46

impacts from the construction timeline

57:48

uh on the surrounding um uh residents

57:51

because it's likely, you know, we'll

57:53

have to do road shutdowns for periods of

57:54

time to, you know, make these utility

57:56

connections. So, if we're able to do

57:58

that kind of uh for both projects at the

58:00

same time or back to back, uh that

58:02

should reduce the downtime for um

58:05

residents to be able to use those

58:06

streets.

58:07

>> Yeah.

58:13

What's underground, but I have concerns

58:16

is that if you're going to build out one

58:18

side and they're coming on the other

58:20

side, would it make sense to basically

58:22

get them both done

58:24

>> that?

58:29

ask you a pricing structure but

58:33

this is going to be more co-op but

58:36

you're um

58:38

again use the term affordable housing

58:40

correct so which going to be your

58:43

pricing for these apartments

58:47

>> I think for the um if if I'm if I'm

58:50

correct okay I think for the onebedroom

58:55

it's around $900. And then for the two

58:59

bedrooms, I want to say it's around

59:01

like$1050,50.

59:05

>> Sounds like you're getting PHFA

59:07

financing and

59:10

Pittsburgh.

59:11

>> Yes.

59:17

to

59:19

the parking. Okay. Uh we don't hit them

59:24

a lot, but because they require seven

59:28

spots on Wall Street parking, how do you

59:32

plan to accommodate? Because I I looked

59:35

at both Walnut Street and 13th Street

59:38

and the parking here could be

59:40

problematic.

59:42

to say when everybody's in. Okay. So,

59:44

how how do you tend to address that?

59:46

>> Well, we're hoping for a waiver from you

59:49

guys.

59:51

>> That's who that's what we're for

59:54

>> because because because the the

59:58

community that we're looking to service

1:00:00

um they typically don't have vehicles

1:00:03

and that's why we're requesting that.

1:00:06

>> Well, there's public transportation

1:00:09

right there off of

1:00:13

Yeah. And I believe there is at least

1:00:15

one bus route that runs down 13th Street

1:00:17

as well. Yes.

1:00:28

Say your return on ask for return on

1:00:31

investment on this, but again seems like

1:00:33

you're trying to build your your

1:00:35

position is that you're trying to

1:00:36

rebuild community and you want to see

1:00:38

that 15 to 30 year investment into this

1:00:42

property

1:00:43

>> at a minimum.

1:00:44

>> I'm not putting words to your mouth.

1:00:45

>> You are very correct. Got a minimum.

1:00:59

>> All right, Mr. Hobs, do you have

1:01:01

anything else right now?

1:01:02

>> Just a kind of a general question. Um,

1:01:04

>> sure.

1:01:05

>> Back to what you mentioned with parking.

1:01:07

Um, because I know there's kind of I

1:01:09

think even in the last meeting just

1:01:10

general statement about a viewpoint of

1:01:14

how many cars a certain population will

1:01:17

own um which I don't know if we can

1:01:20

really directly calculate that right. Um

1:01:23

but what is your thought or estimate

1:01:25

then if for this sixunit building of

1:01:27

what would be the average um need I

1:01:30

guess in terms of of parking spaces or I

1:01:33

guess I should say how many vehicles do

1:01:35

you think would be owned by you know the

1:01:38

tenants that are um occupying these six

1:01:41

units at any given time.

1:01:43

Well, the the way that we went about uh

1:01:48

housing uh this six unit complex uh we

1:01:52

partner with uh uh um

1:01:57

New Tomorrow. So, a nonprofit company uh

1:02:01

nonprofit organization, I'm sorry. and

1:02:04

and what they do, they have a housing

1:02:06

list um that meets the conditions and

1:02:09

the standards of affordable housing who

1:02:13

uh in our community. We want to help you

1:02:16

know those people and uh they they've

1:02:19

written us they have statistics and they

1:02:21

they've written us a statement um to

1:02:23

include uh whenever we go out to anyone

1:02:26

to show that uh I think it's 90 I want

1:02:30

to say 98% of uh those who they house

1:02:35

they don't have a vehicle. Um, and so

1:02:39

that would be perfect for us because if

1:02:42

most the majority of them don't have a

1:02:44

vehicle and what we're trying to apply

1:02:46

for is is an exemption from that, um,

1:02:50

that would that would fit the the

1:02:52

community and where we're at. And it

1:02:55

would also enable them to be right there

1:02:58

on a bus line and in close proximity to

1:03:01

what they need. Uh, even though, you

1:03:04

know, they have transportation but not

1:03:06

their own. vehicle.

1:03:08

So, um that is how we tried to

1:03:10

supplement um not having park

1:03:14

>> and the plan is right to have this as

1:03:16

affordable housing, right? That that's

1:03:18

what you would apply to the city. Is

1:03:20

that how it an application goes to the

1:03:22

city to make sure that then they get a

1:03:24

certific that then they get the

1:03:26

certification

1:03:27

>> the affordable housing?

1:03:29

>> Um I think it it does come through the

1:03:30

city. Yeah.

1:03:32

>> Right. for the certification to do it.

1:03:33

But but that is the plan

1:03:35

>> and and it's based on though, right?

1:03:37

Kind of the pricing of the units, right?

1:03:40

That's what

1:03:40

>> that that's correct. It's ba it's based

1:03:42

on um who the uh what level of

1:03:45

affordability the units are. Um it's our

1:03:49

our threshold is 80. They're below that.

1:03:51

Um so uh and again they they they're

1:03:55

proposing the co-op which I think is a

1:03:57

little bit different than what we've had

1:03:59

in the past. It's usually, you know,

1:04:01

rental units or something like that. Uh

1:04:03

sometimes four for four for uh uh for

1:04:06

sale home uh row homes like on North

1:04:10

Fourth Street that was just completed

1:04:11

and Market Street that the board has

1:04:14

reviewed recently. Uh but this co-op is

1:04:16

a is a different uh configuration as far

1:04:19

as that's concerned. So, um I don't

1:04:21

think we've had to review that against

1:04:22

the specifics of the program language,

1:04:26

>> but al also based on really I guess the

1:04:29

income level of you know the tenants or

1:04:33

you know residents of that that that is

1:04:35

really why then

1:04:37

>> the required off streetet parking is

1:04:39

reduced.

1:04:41

>> Yeah. Which is goes along with the plan

1:04:43

that then they're not going to have as

1:04:44

many cars which I think is what Mr.

1:04:46

Hobbs was kind of looking at. Right.

1:04:48

>> Correct. And you know that's largely

1:04:50

been a position of the of the planning

1:04:52

bureau is that you know when you're u

1:04:55

when you need assistance to put a roof

1:04:56

over your head you know it's likely that

1:05:00

um statistically that you're more less

1:05:02

likely to have a vehicle because that

1:05:04

costs a significant amount of money as

1:05:06

well uh either to own, buy, run,

1:05:09

maintain. Um, so when we're talking

1:05:11

about populations where we're going as

1:05:14

deeply affordable as what the applicants

1:05:15

are doing, it's definitely less likely

1:05:18

that uh the average household there will

1:05:20

have a a car or maybe they'll share a

1:05:23

car with a friend of theirs or somebody

1:05:25

that lives nearby, you know, something

1:05:26

like that. Um, but the but you know, the

1:05:29

cost of a car is significant and it's

1:05:31

only going up. Um, you know, with

1:05:33

respect Yeah. uh gas uh with respect to

1:05:36

uh even um the used car market uh is

1:05:39

increasing. So uh the cost of vehicles

1:05:42

going up uh and it definitely makes it

1:05:45

less affordable for everybody especially

1:05:47

uh people who need um help with uh

1:05:49

subsidized housing.

1:05:51

>> And the other question I have those

1:05:53

focused on that the onedimensional

1:05:55

variance related to the building width.

1:05:57

>> Yeah. So what is the

1:06:02

building width of buildings in that area

1:06:05

and then what's the 20% because I've

1:06:07

kind of seen like 16 to 18 feet or is it

1:06:10

32 to 36 that kind of thing just so I

1:06:13

know in writing

1:06:14

>> sure decision we need to write

1:06:16

>> you know that's always a tricky little

1:06:18

section of the zoning code and both

1:06:20

because it's uh because really a block

1:06:22

is not well defined uh whether it's just

1:06:24

the you know contiguous land surrounded

1:06:26

by rights of way or is

1:06:28

the properties on both sides of a single

1:06:30

street. And how far does that go? Um,

1:06:33

you know, the adjacent property, the

1:06:35

mixeduse property just to the uh east uh

1:06:37

which is like apartment over convenience

1:06:40

store is larger than the average in the

1:06:43

neighborhood. Um, as the applicants note

1:06:44

in their application, it's uh, you know,

1:06:47

anywhere from uh 14 to 18. Um, and there

1:06:51

are single family homes just to the west

1:06:53

along Walnut Street that are wider than

1:06:55

that. There's the building at the corner

1:06:57

of 13th and Walnut that you know. So,

1:06:59

it's it's tough to say whether there's a

1:07:01

prevailing, but the block AC the

1:07:03

directly across the block from this

1:07:04

project say you do have a pretty

1:07:06

consistent uh row home um uh

1:07:11

design or a row of homes that are all

1:07:13

about the same width. Um and so you know

1:07:17

in the I think in the interest of uh

1:07:20

completeness of this so that there's not

1:07:22

you know a missing aspect of the project

1:07:25

we wanted to look at that and say well

1:07:26

you could argue that there's a

1:07:27

prevailing width because of what's

1:07:29

across the block. So um but I think when

1:07:32

you look at the certainly the blocks

1:07:34

surrounding uh the subject uh properties

1:07:37

uh I would say there isn't really a

1:07:39

prevailing width within the general

1:07:40

neighborhood.

1:07:41

>> Okay. So, but in writ

1:07:47

then looked at it and make sure first of

1:07:49

all the building is going to be 38 ft

1:07:52

width there the the applicant that

1:07:55

proposed building correct

1:07:57

>> 38.

1:07:58

>> Okay. And the prevailing width may be 32

1:08:04

to 36 feet. Is that maybe a fair way to

1:08:08

consider all the properties

1:08:12

>> in order to be able to write this and

1:08:16

and have it decided this dimensional

1:08:19

variance request?

1:08:20

>> Yeah. So, you know, I Yeah, I mean, I

1:08:22

would say it's almost like there's two

1:08:23

row homes side by side. They have the c

1:08:26

two central stairwells that are required

1:08:27

for access to the upper floors. So, it's

1:08:29

not as though it's one building frontage

1:08:32

for um you know, a large apartment

1:08:34

building. It's being treated as, you

1:08:36

know, two conjoined row homes that have

1:08:39

a central access corridor.

1:08:42

>> Right. Okay. All right. Any other

1:08:46

questions?

1:08:47

>> Question. Since this is part of summit

1:08:54

association.

1:08:59

Yes, I have tried reaching out to them

1:09:01

to let them know what's going on

1:09:04

and um I haven't got any responses.

1:09:09

>> Um uh Mrs. uh what's her name? Barbie D.

1:09:16

>> Uh um

1:09:19

>> I haven't spoke to her for a while. I

1:09:21

I've tried left her a message. I talked

1:09:24

with her for a while prior to this, but

1:09:26

um I haven't uh she hasn't replied or

1:09:29

anything like that.

1:09:34

Any type of handouts is something you

1:09:36

would basically hand to people or some

1:09:38

type of notification

1:09:43

want to do this or something and your

1:09:45

input.

1:09:46

>> Yeah, we sent the letters out our

1:09:47

certified letters out.

1:09:52

>> Thank you.

1:09:54

Okay.

1:09:56

Want to take a break or anything?

1:09:58

deliberate

1:10:00

questions.

1:10:04

Either way,

1:15:09

Is there anybody here from the public

1:15:11

that wants to comment on this uh

1:15:13

application?

1:15:16

Seeing none. Okay. Do we have a motion

1:15:20

to approve application 2638

1:15:25

um in the request for special exceptions

1:15:28

and a dimensional variance subject to

1:15:30

the conditions stated by the uh planning

1:15:33

commission?

1:15:35

>> So move.

1:15:36

>> Okay. Do we have a second?

1:15:38

>> Second.

1:15:38

>> Okay. All in favor?

1:15:40

>> I

1:15:41

>> Okay, it's approved. And uh with that,

1:15:43

I'll send out the written decision to uh

1:15:46

the applicants within 45 days. Okay.

1:15:49

>> All right.

1:15:50

>> Congratulations, guys.

1:15:53

>> All right.

1:15:55

Let's see. We got

1:16:04

we got

1:16:08

right 26.

1:16:10

Okay. Okay. So, we have applica

1:16:12

application 2639,

1:16:14

which is 1531 and 1533 North 6 Street.

1:16:21

Um, okay.

1:16:27

And with that also, um, Mr. Knight,

1:16:31

you'll consider yourself sworn in for

1:16:33

this application as well. Correct.

1:16:34

>> Correct.

1:16:35

>> Okay.

1:16:37

Um,

1:16:38

and who is here for the applicant? I see

1:16:41

they're represented as well, but who's

1:16:45

>> Kevin Kufa, Penn State Health, last name

1:16:48

is KU FFA.

1:16:52

>> Okay.

1:16:56

Mark Karowski, Kur WKI

1:17:00

with K&W, Civil Engineers for the

1:17:02

project.

1:17:07

Esh Mccomi with MCNE Wallace and Nurk uh

1:17:10

land use attorney and then we also have

1:17:13

uh in the audience with us David Deloo

1:17:16

with Penn State Health uh general

1:17:17

counsel.

1:17:18

>> Okay.

1:17:23

Okay. Um why don't we uh though swear in

1:17:27

the uh witnesses for the applicant the

1:17:29

two they can just raise their right hand

1:17:30

and then have you both sworn in.

1:17:34

for the test.

1:17:38

>> I do.

1:17:38

>> Okay. Both answered in the affirmative.

1:17:41

All right. So, I'll read in the exhibits

1:17:43

and turn it over to Mr. Knight.

1:17:45

Uh, we have B1, proof of publication.

1:17:48

May 3, May 10, 2026. B2, letter sent

1:17:52

from the planning director to applicant

1:17:53

notifying of the hearing. B3, hearing

1:17:55

notice posted on the property. B4,

1:17:58

notification letter sent to neighbors

1:18:00

and certificate of mailing. B5,

1:18:02

application packet with attached

1:18:04

narrative photos of the property. B6,

1:18:07

uh, commercial lease establishing

1:18:09

applicant standing to pursue the zoning

1:18:10

relief. B7, planning bureau case report

1:18:14

and B8, city of Harrisburg planning

1:18:16

commission resolution. So, we have B1

1:18:19

through B8. With that, I'll turn it over

1:18:22

to Mr. Knight.

1:18:23

>> Uh, yes. So uh the issues inherent in um

1:18:27

the application for case number 2639

1:18:31

uh are a um accessessor or sorry are a

1:18:34

special exception and that is for uh

1:18:37

allowing a fence taller than the 6ft uh

1:18:40

height permitted by right in the INS

1:18:42

district. Uh the applicants are

1:18:43

proposing a 10-ft high fence to surround

1:18:45

the play area and then the variances are

1:18:48

for the proposed use. So uh the uh play

1:18:51

area represents an accessory use. is

1:18:53

accessory to the medical offices that

1:18:55

are located at 1524 Wallace Street just

1:18:57

across the street. Um and uh they will

1:19:01

be the principal use of the subject

1:19:02

property. So that's what the variance is

1:19:04

for allowing an accessory use as a

1:19:06

principal use and then also for

1:19:08

encroachment into uh the side and rear

1:19:11

yard setbacks. Um the applicants are

1:19:13

proposing the construction of a

1:19:15

basketball court at the rear of the

1:19:17

property. Um and uh the

1:19:21

full width of the property is I believe

1:19:24

31 ft of the two properties. Um and I

1:19:28

believe the depth is uh 70 ft. Um so the

1:19:33

sideyard setbacks for properties in the

1:19:35

INS district are 20 ft. Uh and the rear

1:19:37

yard setback is 20 ft as well. So you

1:19:39

actually couldn't build anything on the

1:19:41

site uh at least within the sideyard

1:19:43

setbacks because uh they're combined 9

1:19:46

ft more than what the full width of the

1:19:49

site is. Um and similarly the um rear

1:19:52

yard setback is 20 ft. So uh basically

1:19:57

it's would severely constrain any uh use

1:19:59

of the uh property uh for any reason. Um

1:20:02

and you know the properties themselves I

1:20:05

think are a bit unique for the INS

1:20:07

district which obviously imagines uh

1:20:10

larger uh types of institutional uses

1:20:12

like hospitals and schools and things of

1:20:15

that nature which you know you're not

1:20:17

going to be building on a kind of narrow

1:20:19

um lot that of the type that

1:20:21

accommodates like row homes throughout

1:20:23

the city. Um and uh for that reason um

1:20:27

development that uh is not in

1:20:30

conformance with the zoning code and

1:20:31

does require the requested zoning relief

1:20:33

uh is sensible for the use. Uh,

1:20:35

additionally

1:20:37

uh the um the playground use uh

1:20:41

represents a uh reasonable proposal for

1:20:44

the site given the proximity of the

1:20:46

principal use to which it's uh attached

1:20:48

and again uh the overall configuration

1:20:50

of the site uh that uh pretty much

1:20:53

precludes any other type of develop of

1:20:55

by right development uh on it. And then

1:20:58

with respect to the um special exception

1:21:00

for the fence height, uh as uh the

1:21:03

applicants noted in their testimony at

1:21:04

the planning commission meeting, uh you

1:21:06

know, they're one of the biggest

1:21:07

concerns is for safety. Uh this is

1:21:09

largely going to be um an outdoor

1:21:11

therapeutic space for uh patients of the

1:21:15

um adjacent medical office. Um and

1:21:17

because it's going to involve, you know,

1:21:18

children, they want to make sure uh to

1:21:21

ensure the security uh of the uh play

1:21:24

area. Uh but also because they'll have

1:21:26

basketballs and I'm sure other

1:21:28

equipment, they want to make sure those

1:21:29

aren't like going out uh of the play

1:21:31

area. So in addition to the uh 10-ft

1:21:34

high uh fence, they'll have netting over

1:21:35

the top too to ensure the area is

1:21:38

enclosed. So it's for both security and

1:21:40

then uh also uh the safety of passers by

1:21:43

make sure something doesn't go into the

1:21:44

street or damage a car in the adjacent

1:21:46

parking lot or something like that. Um

1:21:49

so overall uh the planning bureau finds

1:21:53

the request uh reasonable uh and uh you

1:21:56

know appropriate uh for reuse of these

1:21:58

subject properties. Uh as such uh we are

1:22:03

recommending approval without any

1:22:05

additional conditions. Uh and the

1:22:07

planning commission also recommends that

1:22:09

the zoning hearing board approved the

1:22:11

request for the following reasons. The

1:22:13

existing configuration of the

1:22:15

development site, particularly the

1:22:16

narrow width and shallow depth, would

1:22:18

require relief for any type of

1:22:19

development on site and the proposed

1:22:21

development represents a sens a sensible

1:22:23

use of the lot given the low inensity

1:22:25

use and proximity to the principal use

1:22:27

which it will support. Uh the lots have

1:22:30

been vacant for approximately 30 years

1:22:31

and given the location between an

1:22:33

accessory parking lot and long-standing

1:22:35

restaurant establishment. The proposed

1:22:37

development represents the most feasible

1:22:39

most feasible and reasonable proposal to

1:22:41

activate the lots and approve their

1:22:43

contribution to the streetscape. And

1:22:46

finally, the project will complement a

1:22:47

medical outpatient clinic that provides

1:22:50

services to adults and adolescence

1:22:51

receiving treatment for emotional,

1:22:53

psychological, and cognitive issues,

1:22:55

which will provide an interactive

1:22:56

outdoor setting that facilitates their

1:22:58

physical and mental health.

1:23:00

>> Okay. And Mr. Knight, uh once again, you

1:23:02

prepared the uh plane bureau case

1:23:04

report, correct?

1:23:05

>> Correct.

1:23:06

>> And you That is your testimony as well

1:23:08

tonight. Correct.

1:23:08

>> Correct.

1:23:09

>> All right, Mr. McCome. Go ahead.

1:23:12

>> Hey, good evening. Thank you for having

1:23:13

us. We'll take a a brief detour away

1:23:16

from housing and talk uh playgrounds for

1:23:18

a little bit here. Um, as Jeff noted,

1:23:22

uh, the applicant operates a outpatient

1:23:24

clinic uh, on this land around North

1:23:27

Sixth Street in Wallace. And to support

1:23:29

that clinic, uh, we wish to establish an

1:23:31

outdoor therapeutic playground.

1:23:33

Unfortunately, there's there's no space

1:23:35

at the North Sixth Street facility. Uh

1:23:37

we had actually prepared an application

1:23:39

for that the facility itself months ago.

1:23:42

Uh but we're able to work through some

1:23:44

zoning things with with the planning

1:23:46

department and didn't need to come

1:23:47

before you uh for that. Uh so I know the

1:23:50

planning department's very very familiar

1:23:52

with this this property. Um as Jeff

1:23:55

pointed out, the the lots are extremely

1:23:58

narrow. Uh, I think it's it's funny

1:24:01

sometimes when I talk to clients of mine

1:24:03

about, you know, what are we talking

1:24:05

about with a variance and a hardship and

1:24:07

what does that what does that mean? The

1:24:10

one of the examples that I'll often give

1:24:11

is when you want to build a home on a

1:24:13

lot, but the lot's only 30 feet wide.

1:24:16

What what do you do if the if the

1:24:18

requirement is for that is larger? And

1:24:20

and that's exactly what we have here. We

1:24:22

have two 15t wide lots. Uh, even if you

1:24:25

combine them, it's 30 feet. with a 20

1:24:27

foot setback, you can't fit anything in

1:24:30

there. So, to Jeff's point, we think

1:24:32

this is a great uh potential reuse for

1:24:34

the property. Uh Kevin is here to answer

1:24:37

any operational questions you might

1:24:38

have, but I think what I'll probably do

1:24:40

is skip ahead to Mark and let Mark walk

1:24:42

you through the plan and then if you

1:24:44

have any follow-up questions, we'll be

1:24:45

happy to to answer them. Mark, you want

1:24:47

to take a seat up here?

1:24:50

Put

1:24:50

>> the board up. Uh I'll hand these out

1:24:52

because I think they've got

1:24:55

Sure.

1:25:01

It's Mark Karowski. Business address is

1:25:04

2201 North Front Street in Harrisburg.

1:25:09

>> Thank you. And how long have you been

1:25:10

with K&W?

1:25:12

>> Uh it's been 21 years.

1:25:15

>> What's your role there?

1:25:16

>> I'm the president and CEO of the

1:25:18

company.

1:25:19

>> And have you ever testified before

1:25:21

presenting hearing before?

1:25:22

>> I have. And have you ever been denied uh

1:25:25

as an expert?

1:25:26

>> Uh no, I have not.

1:25:28

>> And did your firm prepare uh the

1:25:30

exhibits that go with this application?

1:25:32

>> We did.

1:25:33

>> Great. I'd like to offer Mr. Kowski as a

1:25:36

expert in site design and zoning.

1:25:38

>> Yep. Recognized. Go ahead.

1:25:40

>> Thank you. Uh if you could flip to the

1:25:42

first page. That's exhibit A. What is

1:25:44

it?

1:25:45

>> Uh it's an aerial view of the property.

1:25:47

>> And could you use it to orient the

1:25:48

board?

1:25:49

>> Sure. Uh as you're looking at exhibit A,

1:25:52

um you're going to see uh north is

1:25:54

basically kind of pointing up on the

1:25:57

drawing. Um you'll see the area in

1:25:59

yellow, that's the um office building

1:26:02

that um Ash had mentioned previously.

1:26:05

And the area in red are the two lots

1:26:07

that we're looking at for the

1:26:08

playground.

1:26:09

>> And those are along Sixth Street.

1:26:11

>> That's correct.

1:26:12

>> And then the is the restaurant the

1:26:14

building that's directly playing north

1:26:16

of the the red rectangle?

1:26:18

>> Correct. Anastasia, I think it is.

1:26:21

>> Uh, is the property in the INS district?

1:26:23

>> It is.

1:26:24

>> If you could flip to exhibit B, please.

1:26:27

What are exhibit B?

1:26:29

>> A couple of street view images of the

1:26:31

property in question.

1:26:32

>> And how many images are there?

1:26:34

>> Believe there are one, two, three, four,

1:26:37

three of them.

1:26:38

>> And to your knowledge, do they generally

1:26:40

uh and accurately reflect the status of

1:26:43

the property?

1:26:43

>> They do.

1:26:46

And then lastly, we'll go to exhibit C.

1:26:48

What is that?

1:26:50

>> Exhibit C is the site plan for the

1:26:52

project.

1:26:55

>> And uh on it is north to the we'll call

1:26:59

it uh 10:00,

1:27:01

>> correct?

1:27:01

>> That would be to the left.

1:27:02

>> Left on the plan. Yes.

1:27:04

>> Uh and does it depict uh the two lots

1:27:07

being consolidated?

1:27:09

>> Yes. If you look at the uh basically in

1:27:11

the center of the plan, you'll see some

1:27:13

dash lines. Within those dashed lines,

1:27:16

uh you'll see darker lines. Those are

1:27:17

the two lots that are to be consolidated

1:27:19

for the project.

1:27:20

>> And uh directly above those are the

1:27:22

building that the office building we

1:27:24

were talking about earlier.

1:27:25

>> That's correct.

1:27:26

>> And the dash lines themselves, it says

1:27:29

uh C enlargement plan A. Is what is

1:27:32

that?

1:27:32

>> That's correct. If you look to the right

1:27:33

of the sheet, there's actually an

1:27:34

enlarged view um that shows a bit more

1:27:36

of what's actually looking to be

1:27:37

developed within those two consolidated

1:27:39

lots for the playground. Could you just

1:27:41

generally describe what's planned for

1:27:43

the playground?

1:27:44

>> Sure. Uh so a couple of things you'll

1:27:46

see there. Um the consolidated lot

1:27:48

itself is about 2326 square feet. Um

1:27:52

within that proposed playground area,

1:27:54

you've got about a third of it is

1:27:56

looking to be asphalt paving. That's

1:27:58

more on kind of the rear of the lot away

1:28:00

from Sixth Street. And then the other

1:28:02

two/ird would be uh a playground

1:28:05

surfacing type material. Um the hard

1:28:08

surface is going to be essentially like

1:28:09

a halfcourt basketball area. Um four

1:28:12

square kind of hard surface play. And

1:28:14

then the the looser playground type

1:28:16

material is more there's some play

1:28:18

equipment likely to be in those areas.

1:28:20

Uh as well as some covered tables for uh

1:28:22

for kids to be sitting.

1:28:24

>> This board might not be aware of what

1:28:25

four square is. Can you walk them

1:28:26

through the rules?

1:28:28

>> I'm a little rusty. Uh but I do watch it

1:28:31

periodically. Yes.

1:28:33

>> Fair enough. Uh is is the playground lot

1:28:36

consolidated about 2326

1:28:38

square feet?

1:28:39

>> It is.

1:28:40

>> And what are some of the setback issues

1:28:42

that we're dealing with?

1:28:44

>> So we looked at this and tried to find

1:28:46

how do we um site the playground

1:28:48

equipment as best we can and provide

1:28:50

some level of setback. Um if you you

1:28:52

look in the enlargement, you'll see a

1:28:54

couple of elements. I'll start with the

1:28:56

rear of the lot which again is towards

1:28:58

the u the clinic building um which is

1:29:01

the rear or again away from Sixth

1:29:03

Street. Uh we're shown a 3.5 ft setback

1:29:06

uh in that location which would be to a

1:29:08

basketball hoop and net. And then if you

1:29:11

look on the side yards I'll start on the

1:29:13

south side uh which would be to your

1:29:15

right on the enlargement drawing. That

1:29:18

is a 3.23 foot setback line. um that is

1:29:22

to I believe the covered one of the

1:29:23

covered tables we have in that location.

1:29:26

And then if you flip to the other side,

1:29:28

the north, which would be the side

1:29:29

closer to Anastasia's, we've got a 4.23

1:29:32

foot set back. That's to um what we're

1:29:35

calling a a shade sail or a canopy to

1:29:37

provide some shade on on the playground.

1:29:39

>> Great. And then um I think

1:29:44

uh lastly on the plan itself, is that

1:29:46

access to the top right of that inset?

1:29:49

>> That is correct. And so the idea is that

1:29:52

um patients would come out of the the

1:29:54

main doors uh from the office building,

1:29:57

cross over Cen Street uh which is a

1:30:00

one-way street and then enter the uh the

1:30:02

playground in that area.

1:30:03

>> That is correct.

1:30:06

>> And for the board's uh knowledge, Cen

1:30:08

Street's kind of an interesting street.

1:30:10

Uh it is technically a a public street.

1:30:13

It almost has always operated as a

1:30:15

private street. It's a small small

1:30:17

oneway alley.

1:30:20

Um Mark, have you reviewed the

1:30:22

application and the narrative included

1:30:24

with it?

1:30:24

>> Yes.

1:30:24

>> And to the extent applicable, do you

1:30:26

adopt the comments made therein as your

1:30:28

own?

1:30:28

>> I do.

1:30:29

>> Thanks.

1:30:30

>> Any questions for for Mark or for Kevin?

1:30:42

You know, I always have to ask

1:30:43

questions, but I don't this time. This

1:30:45

is very This is good. I very familiar

1:30:48

with

1:30:49

extremely familiar with it.

1:30:51

>> We're going to hold you to that, Mr.

1:30:52

Fibs.

1:30:55

>> We met now as a fight now.

1:30:59

>> Like an attorney.

1:31:01

>> Okay.

1:31:02

>> Thank you.

1:31:03

>> I I do have one question because you on

1:31:07

the other side of Paris Street, you have

1:31:09

the AR archives. Okay. And it goes all

1:31:13

the way back to Wallace below that.

1:31:18

I understand the need for the 10 foot

1:31:20

high fence and with some netting over

1:31:23

top of it and that's more for a safety

1:31:25

purpose for the people who are going to

1:31:27

be in that in that area. Correct.

1:31:29

>> Yeah. It's to keep keep balls from

1:31:31

coming out and

1:31:38

>> that's all I have. Thank you.

1:31:39

>> Thank you.

1:31:44

>> Yeah, just one question. So, um I'm

1:31:47

assuming that is this just going to be

1:31:49

accessible during the hours of operation

1:31:52

of the clinic.

1:31:54

>> That's correct. The uh the patients uh

1:31:57

the youth patients that are here come

1:31:59

for for the day

1:32:00

>> and so yeah, this is during those

1:32:02

regular oper hours of operation. It will

1:32:04

be closed and and locked up uh in off

1:32:07

hours.

1:32:10

>> Thank you.

1:32:11

>> Yep.

1:32:12

>> Question for you.

1:32:14

going to be a play area. Will you

1:32:16

provide lighting into that or because

1:32:19

it's only going to be active during

1:32:22

business hours per say?

1:32:24

>> I I believe there's

1:32:27

be

1:32:28

there'll be site lighting that'll be

1:32:30

there for the parking lot that can

1:32:32

that'll that'll also light that area if

1:32:35

we need to. It is daytime only use so

1:32:38

it's from like 8:30 in the morning until

1:32:41

like 1:30 in the afternoon. I was just

1:32:44

thinking about the netting over top of

1:32:45

the area. Okay. That light effective

1:32:49

say,

1:32:51

>> right?

1:32:52

>> Okay.

1:32:56

Mr. Kufo, what is your position at uh

1:32:58

Penn Health

1:33:00

Penn State? I meant

1:33:03

>> I'm the facilities project manager.

1:33:06

>> Okay.

1:33:12

Okay. Anything

1:33:14

else?

1:33:20

Anybody u anybody here from the public

1:33:24

or wants to comment on this application?

1:33:31

Okay. And

1:33:35

all right. So,

1:33:37

uh, do we have a motion to approve

1:33:40

application 2639, which are for special

1:33:44

exceptions and, uh, a special exception

1:33:47

and, uh, variance requests? Um, do we

1:33:51

have a motion for that?

1:33:52

>> So, move.

1:33:53

>> All right.

1:33:55

Uh, do we have a second?

1:33:56

>> Second.

1:33:57

>> Okay. All in favor?

1:33:59

>> I.

1:34:00

>> Okay. There we go. It's approved. And I

1:34:02

will get that decision out to you,

1:34:04

applicant.

1:34:04

>> Y, thank you very much. Appreciate it.

1:34:06

Thank you.

1:34:15

>> All right, so we got

1:34:21

20.

1:34:27

>> All right.

1:34:46

Yeah, we'll deal with that. All right.

1:34:49

>> So, we have application 2640

1:34:54

North 16 Street in Crab Apple Street.

1:34:58

Um, before I go through the exhibits,

1:35:02

uh, Mr. Knight uh you consider yourself

1:35:04

sworn in for this application as well

1:35:06

tonight. Okay. I will u uh read in the

1:35:12

exhibits then we can have the people for

1:35:14

applicant uh introduce themselves

1:35:18

uh and swear them in and then we'll turn

1:35:20

it back over to Mr. Knight to go through

1:35:23

um the property description and so on.

1:35:26

So, we have exhibits uh B1, proof of

1:35:30

publication, May 3 and May 10, 2026. B2,

1:35:33

letter sent from the planning director

1:35:35

to the applicant notifying of the

1:35:36

hearing. B3, hearing notice posted on a

1:35:39

property. B4, notification letter sent

1:35:41

to neighbors and certificate of mailing.

1:35:44

B5, application packet with attached

1:35:46

narrative photos of the property. B6

1:35:49

Harrisburg Redevelopment Authority um

1:35:52

resolution authorizing applicant to

1:35:54

develop the property.

1:35:57

There was uh several attached deeds and

1:35:59

other agreements establishing applicants

1:36:02

standing to pursue the requested zoning

1:36:04

relief. B7 the planning bureau case

1:36:06

report and B8 the city of Harrisburg

1:36:09

planning commission resolution. So we

1:36:10

have B1 through B8

1:36:13

and um

1:36:16

people for applicant introduce

1:36:18

themselves. We'll swear in the witnesses

1:36:20

and then we'll go back. We'll go to

1:36:22

mystery night.

1:36:24

>> Jared Miller, the Cooper Companies.

1:36:28

>> Tar Castile, TLC workbased training.

1:36:32

>> Okay. Uh Tar, what's the what was the

1:36:34

last name?

1:36:36

>> Castile.

1:36:37

>> Castile.

1:36:38

>> Yes.

1:36:38

>> Okay.

1:36:41

Is that uh T A R E K? Is that it?

1:36:45

>> T A R I K. I K. Got it. Castile. C A S T

1:36:50

I L L E.

1:36:52

>> S T E.

1:36:53

>> Darn. I'm doing bad on this spelling

1:36:54

test.

1:36:55

>> All right. What was it? C A S

1:36:57

>> S T E L.

1:37:01

>> Castile.

1:37:02

>> E L. Oh, Castile. Got it. Yeah.

1:37:07

>> I used to be good at spelling, but then

1:37:08

I became a lawyer, so you know. All

1:37:10

right. Next.

1:37:11

>> Matt Witters with Eustus Engineering.

1:37:17

Okay. And before you ask, Mike, there is

1:37:21

one R in Jared.

1:37:23

Got it.

1:37:27

Okay.

1:37:32

All right. And then we have Mr. McCumbi

1:37:35

here representing. Right.

1:37:37

>> That's correct.

1:37:38

>> All right. So, we'll turn it over to Mr.

1:37:40

Knight and then we'll move on to the

1:37:42

applicants.

1:37:42

>> All right. So uh case number 2640 uh is

1:37:47

a somewhat unique one uh although it's u

1:37:51

very similar to the first phase uh uh

1:37:55

that this project represents the second

1:37:57

phase of um

1:38:00

and uh the first phase of the project

1:38:02

being the TLC cornerstone which is uh

1:38:05

directly to the west of essentially

1:38:07

where this project footprint is uh and

1:38:10

represented uh the construction of 50 um

1:38:12

units uh across uh several blocks of row

1:38:16

homes and a multif family dwelling

1:38:19

building. Uh whereas uh this project is

1:38:23

a bit more of a scattered sites um

1:38:26

development and largely involves only uh

1:38:29

two units uh at a time uh or I should

1:38:33

say two duplexes connected uh on uh nine

1:38:36

different lots uh across the uh project

1:38:40

site. Uh there's um a total of 34

1:38:43

affordable housing units in 17 buildings

1:38:45

across those uh nine uh consolidated

1:38:48

lots. Um and the proposal involves uh

1:38:53

the establishment of multifamily

1:38:55

dwellings on the subject properties uh

1:38:57

and a request for relief from the off-

1:38:58

streetet parking requirements in section

1:39:00

7-327.6

1:39:02

of the zoning code. And those are the

1:39:03

special exception requests. Uh and

1:39:06

requires relief from various aspects of

1:39:08

the development standards outlined in

1:39:10

check in chapter 7-307 of the zoning

1:39:12

code. Um and those are specifically for

1:39:16

uh relief from section 7-307.3A

1:39:20

of the zoning code to construct a

1:39:21

building wider than 20% of the

1:39:23

prevailing width on the block. Uh that's

1:39:25

applicable to lot number five. Uh,

1:39:27

relief from section 7-307.3A

1:39:30

of the zoning code to permit full

1:39:31

encroachment into the 5- foot front yard

1:39:33

setback. Uh, also applicable to lot

1:39:35

number five. Uh, relief from the same

1:39:37

section of the zoning code to permit

1:39:39

full encroachment into the 4ft sideyard

1:39:41

setback. And that's applicable to lots

1:39:43

number 6, 7, and 9. uh relief from

1:39:46

section 7-327.9A4

1:39:49

of the zoning code to permit parking

1:39:51

encroachment into the required rear yard

1:39:53

setbacks along Apple Crab Apple Street

1:39:55

and that's applicable to lots number

1:39:57

four and nine and then um to the extent

1:40:01

necessary relief from section 7-307.13

1:40:04

of the zoning code to authorize the

1:40:06

removal of trees with trunk diameters of

1:40:08

12 in or more and that's applicable to

1:40:10

those properties uh which again front

1:40:12

along Crab Apple street which is lots

1:40:16

four, six and nine. Um

1:40:21

the uh the project is going to be

1:40:24

submitted through the

1:40:27

>> yeah

1:40:30

just turn

1:40:31

>> that one.

1:40:35

>> Okay. Test test this one.

1:40:41

Hello.

1:40:45

>> I was just trying to speak really

1:40:46

loudly.

1:40:48

>> Hello.

1:40:49

>> Okay, there we go. Yep. Thank you.

1:40:50

>> Thank you.

1:40:51

>> Thanks, Emily. Um, so uh the project

1:40:54

will be submitted uh through the city's

1:40:56

affordable housing uh certification

1:40:58

program uh which impacts uh two aspects

1:41:02

of this pro of this project. um both the

1:41:04

density uh which requires 750 square

1:41:08

feet of lot area per dwelling unit as

1:41:10

opposed to the 1500 square foot of lot

1:41:12

area per dwelling unit in the RM

1:41:14

district and also the provision of off-

1:41:16

streetet parking uh as the project would

1:41:19

require uh 0.5 spaces per dwelling unit.

1:41:23

So, uh, for a total of 34, uh,

1:41:25

affordable housing units, they would be

1:41:27

required to have 17 off- streetet

1:41:29

parking spaces. And they are providing

1:41:32

10, uh, off- streetet parking spaces

1:41:34

across, uh, three of the lots. Um, and

1:41:36

so therefore, they're requesting, uh,

1:41:38

total relief of seven, uh, off- streetet

1:41:41

parking spaces. Um

1:41:45

so with respect to the uh proposed

1:41:47

development uh the multif family

1:41:49

dwelling as we've heard from uh both um

1:41:53

other applicants uh at tonight's meeting

1:41:56

and other meetings. Um you know the when

1:41:59

you're going for affordable housing you

1:42:00

need to have a slightly denser uh

1:42:03

development than would be permitted by

1:42:04

Wright. Um and uh the um relief from

1:42:10

off- streetet parking. Again, we had

1:42:11

just kind of had a conversation about

1:42:13

that of um people who are going after

1:42:16

affordable units uh generally uh

1:42:18

statistically less likely to own

1:42:20

vehicles. Uh but the planning bureau

1:42:22

would note that with respect to the

1:42:24

project footprint, um all of the sites

1:42:27

uh that are proposed as part of this

1:42:29

project are uh vacant. Um and uh several

1:42:32

of them uh have a significant amount of

1:42:35

uh frontage along various rights of way

1:42:37

whether that's Walnut Street, 16th

1:42:38

Street or Regina Street. Um and uh given

1:42:42

that there's vacant lots uh fronting

1:42:44

these, there is really no um demand or

1:42:47

there were no vehicles uh really parked

1:42:49

along the frontages of these properties

1:42:51

on those streets. Uh so there is

1:42:53

sufficient uh on street parking in the

1:42:56

surrounding neighborhood uh to

1:42:58

accommodate um any demand from tenants

1:43:01

or their guests. Um and while the

1:43:05

project site sits in a bit of a uh kind

1:43:08

of in a bit of a maybe black hole with

1:43:10

respect to uh transit um being that

1:43:13

there's no uh routes that run directly

1:43:15

adjacent to the project sites. Uh there

1:43:17

are routes uh kind of enclosing uh the

1:43:20

project site on uh 13th Street, 17th

1:43:23

Street, State Street and uh Market

1:43:26

Street which kind of all enclose uh the

1:43:28

property to the west, east, north and

1:43:31

south respectively. Um so in addition to

1:43:33

the availability of on street parking,

1:43:35

there is uh near there are nearby uh

1:43:38

mass transit routes for uh residents of

1:43:41

the uh prospective uh dwelling units. Uh

1:43:45

with respect to some of the variance

1:43:47

requests um

1:43:50

the one for building uh lot number five

1:43:52

for the building width larger than 20

1:43:54

uh% of the prevailing width on the block

1:43:57

um there really is not a I would say

1:44:00

prevailing width uh because so many of

1:44:04

the uh blocks or sorry so many of the

1:44:07

lots that comprise a project site are

1:44:09

vacant. Um, a lot of the buildings that

1:44:11

are there are one-offs or uh attached

1:44:14

buildings. Uh, so they don't really

1:44:16

establish a um, prevailing width. Um,

1:44:18

but it should be noted that for block

1:44:20

lot number five, um, the building itself

1:44:24

will probably if looked at from Regina

1:44:27

Street will be similar to other uh,

1:44:29

buildings that line Regina Street, but

1:44:31

these buildings are actually going to be

1:44:32

facing uh, North 15th Street. Um so

1:44:35

while the building massing is very

1:44:37

similar to other buildings uh because of

1:44:39

the way they'll be because of the way

1:44:42

the um the entrances will be facing uh

1:44:45

it kind of establishes the side of the

1:44:48

building almost as the front which is

1:44:49

why uh they're requesting that relief uh

1:44:52

for wider than uh 20% of the prevailing

1:44:55

width. Um, as far as the encroachment

1:44:58

into uh the front yard setbacks, again

1:45:00

that applies to to lot five and it's

1:45:03

really I would say more the uh side

1:45:06

would be more the um sideyard setback.

1:45:09

Uh because again they they will those

1:45:11

units will be fronting North 15th Street

1:45:13

instead of fronting Regina Street. Um so

1:45:16

it will be built but it will be built up

1:45:17

to the property line which is um the

1:45:21

configuration of the uh single family

1:45:24

row homes just to the east. Uh so it is

1:45:26

matching uh what's out there in the

1:45:28

neighborhood right now. Um as far as

1:45:30

encroachment into the 4oot sideyard

1:45:32

setbacks for lots six, seven, and nine,

1:45:35

um those are going to be kind of

1:45:40

constrained by either vacant lots that

1:45:41

are not part of this project or existing

1:45:43

buildings. And so, uh, the applicant has

1:45:47

designed the new developments so that

1:45:50

they're further from the existing

1:45:51

buildings to allow those owners of those

1:45:53

properties to have access to their

1:45:55

properties, which kind of pushes them

1:45:56

into uh, the sideyard setbacks on the

1:45:59

opposite sides uh, of those uh,

1:46:02

development footprints. Uh with respect

1:46:04

to the parking encroachment into the

1:46:06

rear yard setbacks along Crab Apple

1:46:07

Street, um you know, the plane bureau

1:46:10

notes that is the most reasonable and

1:46:11

rational uh location to provide parking

1:46:15

uh for at least some of the units uh in

1:46:17

this project. Uh both because um you

1:46:20

wouldn't want to have front yard

1:46:21

setbacks or sorry, you wouldn't want to

1:46:23

have front yard parking which would be,

1:46:24

you know, out of character with the

1:46:26

neighborhood. Uh but also there are no

1:46:28

sidewalks along Crab Apple Street. So,

1:46:31

uh, by locating the the parking off of

1:46:35

that street, they'll be able to, uh,

1:46:37

avoid creating a new pedestrian

1:46:39

vehicular conflict point, um, there

1:46:42

because people aren't using the garage,

1:46:44

uh, the sidewalks already there. Uh and

1:46:46

then finally with regards to the removal

1:46:48

of uh trees, um you know, given the

1:46:51

constrained nature of the sites and the

1:46:53

fact that uh at least two of those along

1:46:55

Crab Apple Street will have parking in

1:46:57

the rear yard, um they're going to have

1:46:59

to remove the uh trees uh in order to

1:47:02

construct new units. Uh they would

1:47:04

probably have to do that anyway for site

1:47:05

prep, but they'll probably need to use

1:47:07

that for staging and uh parking

1:47:09

vehicles. Um so it's likely that all of

1:47:12

those trees will need to be removed. Um,

1:47:15

but we are trying to address that in the

1:47:17

conditions by uh recommending that uh

1:47:19

there be like a one for one replacement

1:47:21

uh for uh new trees and tree pits along

1:47:25

sidewalks uh for properties as part of

1:47:28

this project.

1:47:30

So with all of that being said uh and I

1:47:33

would note uh also that again uh this is

1:47:36

the second phase of the cornerstone

1:47:38

project uh just to the east there and

1:47:40

it's made a remarkable improvement uh on

1:47:42

the neighborhood. Um it uh replaced a

1:47:45

lot of overgrown lots uh some of which

1:47:47

had illegal parking of uh you know uh

1:47:50

junked vehicles uh with uh a lot of new

1:47:54

uh housing units uh with modern

1:47:56

construction affordable housing units uh

1:47:58

for residents of the neighborhood um and

1:48:01

has really reactivated those streets uh

1:48:04

North 15th Street Regina Street um and

1:48:08

really brought uh I would say a much

1:48:12

better sense of ownership of those

1:48:13

spaces. Uh, and you can tell that

1:48:15

they're better maintained along those

1:48:17

frontages than what they used to be. Uh,

1:48:20

so with all that being said, the

1:48:23

planning commission has recommended the

1:48:25

zoning hearing board approved the

1:48:26

request with the following conditions.

1:48:29

If granted approval for the requested

1:48:31

zoning relief, the applicant will

1:48:33

subsequently file a lot consolidation

1:48:35

and land development plan and receive

1:48:37

approval from the planning commission

1:48:38

and city council. Uh because the project

1:48:41

will be restricted to residents earning

1:48:42

60% of the median family income and is

1:48:44

therefore eligible for the certificate

1:48:46

of qualification pursuant to chapter

1:48:48

12101 of title 12. The applicant should

1:48:51

submit the project through the

1:48:52

affordable housing certification program

1:48:54

prior to recording the lot consolidation

1:48:56

and land development plan with the

1:48:58

Dolphin County Recorder of Deeds. Uh the

1:49:00

applicant should reconstruct all

1:49:01

sidewalks along North 16th Street,

1:49:03

Regina Street, and North 15th Street to

1:49:05

the full width between the curb and

1:49:07

property lines as the current

1:49:09

configuration along those streets and

1:49:10

will provide safer and improved

1:49:12

pedestrian infrastructure for new

1:49:14

residents of the proposed development

1:49:15

and existing residents of the

1:49:17

neighborhood as well as curb bumpouts at

1:49:19

corner lots along North 16th Street,

1:49:21

Regina Street, and North 15th Street,

1:49:23

similar to what was installed along the

1:49:25

15th Street frontage of the previous

1:49:27

phase of the project. Uh the applicant

1:49:29

should also consider measures to prevent

1:49:31

illegal parking such as street trees. Uh

1:49:34

the number four, the applicant should

1:49:36

install fencing enclosing undeveloped

1:49:39

areas around the proposed buildings to

1:49:40

prevent unauthorized access and

1:49:42

unpermitted activities such as illegal

1:49:44

parking and dumping to create more

1:49:46

functional space for project residents

1:49:48

and to enhance the aesthetic impact of

1:49:50

the project. The bureau also recommends

1:49:53

coordinating with the city arborist on

1:49:55

plannings to improve the appearance and

1:49:56

ecological function of the project

1:49:58

sites. The bureau recommends that for

1:50:00

every tree removed, the applicants plan

1:50:01

a new one in a tree pit located within

1:50:03

the public right ofway as space on each

1:50:05

development site will be limited.

1:50:08

The planning commission recommends the

1:50:10

zoning hearing board approve the request

1:50:11

for the following reasons. The proposed

1:50:13

project will develop lots that are

1:50:15

currently vacant, unckempt, and/or under

1:50:17

you and/or utilized for unpermitted uses

1:50:19

such as illegal parking or dumping and

1:50:21

create affordable housing units for the

1:50:23

city's residents in a variety of

1:50:24

configurations including multi-bedroom

1:50:27

and ADA units. The subject properties

1:50:29

comprising the project site lack

1:50:31

adequate pedestrian infrastructure and

1:50:33

which creates unpleasant and safe

1:50:35

conditions that have an adverse impact

1:50:37

on the surrounding community. And the

1:50:39

project will enhance the streetscape for

1:50:41

existing and future residents by

1:50:42

providing wide shaded sidewalks if the

1:50:45

planning bureau recommend planning

1:50:46

bureau's recommendations are adopted.

1:50:49

The zoning relief requested by the

1:50:50

applicants such as relief to allow rear

1:50:52

yard parking or to encroach into

1:50:54

setbacks which allows the construction

1:50:55

of units up to lot lines will better

1:50:57

reflect the existing nature of the built

1:50:59

environment and the surrounding blocks.

1:51:01

Thus, these requests are necessary to

1:51:03

develop a project that integrates into

1:51:04

the building and infrastructure fabric

1:51:06

of the community. And finally, as

1:51:09

evidenced by the appearance and success

1:51:11

of the first phase of the applicant's

1:51:12

development along North 15th Street, the

1:51:14

project will bring significant social,

1:51:16

economic, and aesthetic benefits to the

1:51:18

neighborhood, provide affordable housing

1:51:20

and modern construction, improve the

1:51:21

streetscape, and bring new residents who

1:51:23

will activate the street on nights and

1:51:25

weekends, and will support local

1:51:27

businesses.

1:51:29

>> Okay. And and uh Mr. Knight, you've also

1:51:33

prepared that planning bureau case

1:51:34

report. Correct.

1:51:36

>> That is correct.

1:51:37

>> Okay. Do you adopt that as well as your

1:51:39

testimony tonight?

1:51:40

>> Yes.

1:51:40

>> Okay.

1:51:42

>> All right. Mr. Mccumbi.

1:51:45

>> Yep. Thank you. Uh good evening again.

1:51:48

Um I think what what we'll probably do

1:51:50

is is still run through uh Jared's

1:51:52

testimony. I think this is the first

1:51:54

project W's had in the city and so I'd

1:51:57

like him to get to know you guys and you

1:51:58

guys to get to know him a little bit

1:52:00

because I'm sure they they'd be excited

1:52:02

to get back. Um, also want to thank Tar

1:52:05

for coming in. Uh, he's done a great job

1:52:07

with phase one. If you haven't had a

1:52:09

chance to swing by and take a look at

1:52:10

it, it's it's a huge improvement as as

1:52:12

Jeff said. So really excited to to have

1:52:15

this pair partnering together uh on on

1:52:17

this project. Uh, I'm going to hand out

1:52:20

the packets. In the meantime, uh Jared,

1:52:22

could you please state your name and

1:52:24

business address for the record?

1:52:25

>> Yeah.

1:52:27

>> Again, Jared Miller, Will Cooper.

1:52:29

Business address is 500 South Front

1:52:31

Street, 10th floor in Columbus, Ohio,

1:52:34

43215.

1:52:37

>> Say it again.

1:52:39

>> No.

1:52:40

>> No.

1:52:41

>> Wait. Yeah. I don't know. Did he?

1:52:43

>> Just do it again, please, just to make

1:52:45

sure.

1:52:50

>> I do. I do.

1:52:52

>> And Jared, who's who's your employer?

1:52:54

Who do you work for?

1:52:56

>> Uh, what do Cooper Companies?

1:52:58

>> We are an affordable housing developer

1:53:00

that's headquartered out of Columbus,

1:53:01

Ohio.

1:53:02

>> Okay.

1:53:05

>> Okay.

1:53:09

>> And I can go more into our background.

1:53:12

>> Sorry, could I ask what's your role with

1:53:13

the company or did he just ask you?

1:53:15

>> Um, he did not. Vice president of

1:53:16

development is my role.

1:53:17

>> And what do you do in that role?

1:53:19

Um, I look through sites um in

1:53:23

communities that are in need of

1:53:24

affordable housing and I primarily

1:53:26

secure the financing through um public

1:53:29

sources such as the Pennsylvania um

1:53:31

housing finance agency and then take

1:53:34

them um all the way up to construction.

1:53:37

>> Where does WO have other projects in

1:53:39

Pennsylvania or the Northeast?

1:53:41

>> A little bit of everywhere. Um we've

1:53:43

been in Pennsylvania for two decades

1:53:46

now. Um we have products kind of across

1:53:49

the state. Um we have two new ones in

1:53:52

Pittsport Pittsburgh, but beyond that we

1:53:54

are um yeah, beyond that we're we're

1:53:58

kind of scattered throughout the the

1:53:59

middle of the state. Um southern parts

1:54:01

of the state. Uh we have a few in in

1:54:04

Lancaster and then several in Cumberland

1:54:07

as well.

1:54:07

>> And then uh WO is partnering with TLC

1:54:10

and T on this project.

1:54:12

>> Correct.

1:54:13

>> Great. Um, who owns the properties?

1:54:17

>> Of the 26 properties, one is currently

1:54:20

owned by TLC. Um, two are privately

1:54:23

owned and then the remainder are owned

1:54:24

by the uh um um housing redevelopment

1:54:28

authority. Um, all of which are under

1:54:31

agreement though.

1:54:33

>> Great. And uh how far along is phase

1:54:36

one?

1:54:37

>> Phase one is fully leased now. um that

1:54:39

is 100% occupied um and doing well.

1:54:44

>> And generally speaking, is phase two

1:54:45

similar to phase one?

1:54:47

>> Very similar. Um same same financing uh

1:54:50

working with the Pennsylvania Housing

1:54:52

Finance Agency. It'll be um

1:54:56

very similar.

1:54:57

>> Great. Are the proposed units affordable

1:54:59

as defined by the city?

1:55:00

>> They are correct.

1:55:02

>> If you could open up exhibit A, the

1:55:04

first exhibit in that packet, please.

1:55:07

What is it?

1:55:08

>> Exhibit A is um overall site plan. Um

1:55:13

Mr. Knight did a good job of talking

1:55:15

about phase one. U that is what's

1:55:17

highlighted in green here. As you can

1:55:19

see the remainder of the lots here,

1:55:21

there will be nine um scattered kind of

1:55:24

around Regina Regina Street, which is

1:55:26

the the diagonal. Um there'll be nine

1:55:30

lots scattered around uh this general

1:55:32

area.

1:55:33

And when we're looking at this plan is

1:55:35

north to the top left.

1:55:37

>> North would be to the top left. Correct.

1:55:43

>> Is the property in the RM district?

1:55:46

>> Correct.

1:55:47

>> And are multif family residential units

1:55:49

permitted by special exception in the RM

1:55:51

district?

1:55:51

>> Yes.

1:55:52

>> I think I heard you say earlier, but

1:55:54

I'll ask again just in case. Will tax

1:55:55

credit financing be applied for this

1:55:57

affordable project?

1:55:58

>> It will.

1:56:04

Uh, in your experience, do your tenants

1:56:07

generally own less vehicles than market

1:56:09

rate tenants?

1:56:10

>> They do.

1:56:11

>> You explain that a little or you know

1:56:13

what what that evidence is?

1:56:15

>> Yeah. Um, some of the same evidence that

1:56:17

was was used on earlier products here.

1:56:19

Um, we've we've run this through our

1:56:21

management team. Um, they they've

1:56:23

approved the the parking counts here.

1:56:25

Um, typically affordable units do have

1:56:27

less means to uh to have cars and rely

1:56:30

on public transit um or other means of

1:56:33

of travel. Um, generally we we do see a

1:56:37

reduction in our in the communities that

1:56:39

uh we we own and manage compared to

1:56:42

market rate um properties for example.

1:56:45

And

1:56:45

>> since I know Mr. Fipps is going to ask

1:56:47

the question on the financing side of

1:56:49

it. Uh are the the sizes of the

1:56:52

buildings and the number of units tied

1:56:54

to making the project feasible? In other

1:56:56

words, so do you have to hit a certain

1:56:58

number of units to be able to make this

1:56:59

project pencil out at all?

1:57:01

>> That would be correct. The uh for this

1:57:03

type of financing, the normal project

1:57:05

size is around that 45 to 50 unit range.

1:57:08

Um we try to get as close to that number

1:57:10

as possible. Um that's um it's defined

1:57:14

relatively by the state um based on the

1:57:16

financing available. Uh here we're we're

1:57:19

a little under, but for infill scattered

1:57:21

site lots, which I I think is um

1:57:24

probably something that's very much seen

1:57:25

in the community, um the 34 was probably

1:57:29

as close as to not get to to that

1:57:32

approximate unit count.

1:57:34

>> Uh will WA own and operate these units

1:57:37

on a going forward basis? They'll be

1:57:40

jointly owned by um ourselves and and

1:57:43

TLC workbased training.

1:57:45

>> Great.

1:57:46

Are you familiar with the narrative

1:57:47

submitted with the application?

1:57:49

>> Yes.

1:57:50

>> And to the extent applicable, do you

1:57:51

adopt the comments made therein as your

1:57:53

own?

1:57:54

>> Yes.

1:57:54

>> Great.

1:57:55

>> Um we can go for questions with Jared or

1:57:59

it might be better to go ahead and let

1:58:01

Matt kind of walk you through the plan

1:58:02

and then we can hit all the questions at

1:58:04

once at the end. Is that easy?

1:58:06

>> Yeah.

1:58:06

>> Because he might answer some. Great.

1:58:08

Come on up, Matt.

1:58:14

>> State your name and business address for

1:58:16

the record.

1:58:16

>> It's Matt Witters with Eustace

1:58:18

Engineering. Uh, it's 161 South 32nd

1:58:21

Street, Camp Hill, PA.

1:58:22

>> And what's your role with Eustace?

1:58:24

>> I'm a senior project manager with

1:58:26

Eustace. I've been there 19 years.

1:58:29

>> And have you worked on affordable

1:58:30

housing projects before?

1:58:32

>> I have. Yes. And when doing so, do you

1:58:34

review the city's ordinances and prepare

1:58:36

your plans to comply with those

1:58:38

ordinances except to the extent relief

1:58:40

is necessary as here?

1:58:41

>> That is correct. Yes.

1:58:42

>> And have you ever been denied as an

1:58:44

expert by a zoning board?

1:58:45

>> I haven't. No.

1:58:47

>> Like to offer Matt as an expert in site

1:58:49

design and zoning analysis. Thank you.

1:58:51

>> Recognized.

1:58:53

>> Matt, if you could go to the next uh

1:58:55

page. That's exhibit A2.

1:58:58

What is it?

1:58:59

>> It's a copy of the zoning plan that we

1:59:01

repaired. This was prepared by Eustus.

1:59:04

>> Correct.

1:59:05

>> Please use it to orient the board.

1:59:07

>> Uh yes. Uh North is to the left on the

1:59:09

plan. Uh it's where Walnut Street

1:59:11

resides. 16th Street is the top of the

1:59:13

plan. Uh 15th Street runs left to right

1:59:17

through the middle of the plan. Uh

1:59:19

Regina Street runs north and south kind

1:59:22

of diagonal. And then Market Street

1:59:23

would be not on the plan, but it's to

1:59:25

the right of the plan.

1:59:28

And could you walk the board through uh

1:59:30

through the site plan and what we're

1:59:32

proposing?

1:59:33

>> Sure. Uh I'm going to start in the upper

1:59:34

lefthand corner with lot one and then

1:59:36

we're going to finish in the lower uh

1:59:37

right hand corner with lot nine. So lot

1:59:39

one uh consisted of two parcels. We're

1:59:42

going to have those consolidated into

1:59:43

one and construct three buildings there.

1:59:46

Each will be a mix of two and

1:59:47

threebedroom units. They're going to be

1:59:48

three stories tall. Behind those lot or

1:59:51

behind those buildings, we'll construct

1:59:53

uh four parking spaces. Two will be ADA.

1:59:56

Uh, and there's a a blue uh hatch in

1:59:59

that area that's uh generally going to

2:00:01

be an underground storm water basin uh

2:00:03

or storm water management system. Um, we

2:00:06

have those throughout the the site. Lot

2:00:08

two is just to the right uh faces 16th

2:00:11

Street. That'll be one unit. Um, I'm

2:00:13

sorry, two units, one building. It's a

2:00:15

two and a three-bedroom uh unit. Uh, no

2:00:18

parking. The lot three faces uh Regina

2:00:22

Street at the corner of 16th and Regina.

2:00:24

That's a mix of a two and a

2:00:25

three-bedroom unit. Uh, no parking. Lot

2:00:28

four uh faces Regina Street, Regina

2:00:31

Street, backs on Crab Apple, and that

2:00:34

has, uh, two buildings, both of which

2:00:36

are a mix of three-bedroom units.

2:00:39

Uh, lot five faces North 15th Street.

2:00:43

It's at the intersection of Regina and

2:00:45

15th. And that'll be two buildings with

2:00:48

uh, a threebedroom and or three

2:00:50

threebedrooms and one two-bedroom. Uh,

2:00:52

no parking.

2:00:54

I'd would like to point out on 15th

2:00:56

Street that we do have a curb bump out

2:00:58

uh or bump in there. Um similar to what

2:01:01

was proposed on lot or I'm sorry on

2:01:03

phase one uh to the west going uh east

2:01:07

on 15th Street. Uh we've got lot six

2:01:10

which is two buildings, two and

2:01:12

threebedroom mix. Uh lot seven is a one

2:01:17

two unit two buildings. Um all four

2:01:20

units will be one bedroom. Lot eight is

2:01:23

across the street on North 15th Street.

2:01:25

Uh that's two buildings. Uh one building

2:01:27

will be uh two one-bedroom units. The

2:01:29

other building will be two three-bedroom

2:01:30

units. And the last lot is lot nine down

2:01:33

at the bottom of the plan faces Regina

2:01:35

Street. That's uh two buildings uh two

2:01:38

bedrooms, three-bedroom mix as well with

2:01:40

off- streetet parking. Uh three uh

2:01:43

there's three spaces on the back of lot

2:01:46

nine. If I go back to lot four because I

2:01:48

skipped over it. We have three off-

2:01:50

streetet parking spaces proposed uh

2:01:52

accessible from Crab Apple.

2:01:55

>> Great. Thank you. You touched on um the

2:01:58

sidewalk bump out. Can you talk a little

2:02:00

bit more about sidewalks and widening?

2:02:03

>> Sure. Um it was uh mentioned in the

2:02:05

conditions from the planning bureau uh

2:02:07

in their recommendation that we provide

2:02:10

uh bumpouts, bumpins, whatever we're

2:02:12

going to call them uh along 15th Street,

2:02:14

16th Street uh and a corner lot there on

2:02:18

15th and uh Ethel to match what we had

2:02:20

done on phase one. Uh we will provide

2:02:22

that. We're not shown it on this plan

2:02:24

and we didn't incorporate it on this

2:02:25

plan. Um with sidewalks, we're going to

2:02:28

propose along 16th Street. Uh and then

2:02:31

the rest of the sidewalks, I don't

2:02:33

really have an issue with proposing uh

2:02:35

full width sidewalks uh along Regina or

2:02:38

15th, but we had set the widths and um

2:02:42

locations based on what had been

2:02:43

constructed as part of phase one. We

2:02:45

were trying to match the aesthetics of

2:02:46

phase one. Um so on that condition uh

2:02:50

I'd like to work with planning bureau a

2:02:51

little bit more to uh to work through

2:02:54

those those full full width sidewalks

2:02:58

>> and then talk a little bit about fencing

2:03:00

please.

2:03:01

>> Uh fencing uh one of the conditions uh

2:03:03

recommended by the planning bureau was

2:03:05

to uh incorporate fencing around some of

2:03:08

the yard areas. Um certainly uh

2:03:11

understand why uh but there wasn't any

2:03:13

fencing um incorporated on phase one.

2:03:16

We'd like to try to keep the aesthetics

2:03:18

on phase one. Uh the other thing with

2:03:20

fencing is it is an added cost and this

2:03:22

is a affordable housing project, but it

2:03:25

would also offer another feature for uh

2:03:27

vandalism as well and maintenance like

2:03:29

long term long-term maintenance um on

2:03:32

the fencing.

2:03:34

And I'm sure you have it memorized, but

2:03:35

I'll I'll ask it in a yes no question

2:03:37

just for for ease. Am I correct that

2:03:40

there is one tree on lot four that is

2:03:42

hazardous due to age? Five trees on lot

2:03:45

six that generally undesirable, invasive

2:03:48

or hazardous due to their age. One tree

2:03:51

on lot nine that is invasive or

2:03:53

undesirable and those are the the trees

2:03:55

generally that are being uh cut down for

2:03:58

this project.

2:03:58

>> That is correct.

2:04:02

>> Um you mentioned some of the parking

2:04:04

spaces. Uh am I correct that we're

2:04:06

providing uh 11 where 17's required?

2:04:10

>> Actually we're uh we're providing 10.

2:04:12

>> 10. Thank you.

2:04:14

Uh And is there adequate public parking

2:04:17

in the immediate vicinity?

2:04:19

>> Uh yes.

2:04:20

>> Public transportation nearby.

2:04:22

>> Uh that's correct.

2:04:26

>> Uh if you could just briefly kind of

2:04:27

point out the the variances. Jeff ran

2:04:29

through them, but it it helps I think to

2:04:31

see them on the plan.

2:04:32

>> Sure. Um beginning again on lot one.

2:04:34

There are no variances for lot one. Uh

2:04:37

lots two and three were uh requesting

2:04:40

variances for the parking requirement.

2:04:41

We're required one per lot for both two

2:04:44

and three. and we're proposing no off-

2:04:46

streetet parking. Uh lot four, we are

2:04:48

proposing three off- streetet parking

2:04:50

spaces, but given the constraints of the

2:04:53

dimensional constraints of the lots

2:04:54

themselves, those parking spaces have to

2:04:56

be within the rear yard setback along

2:04:58

Crab Apple Street.

2:05:01

Uh lot four, the what else I have there?

2:05:03

One tree removal as well on lot four.

2:05:06

Lot five, uh we are required two parking

2:05:08

spaces and as you can see, there's not

2:05:10

room on the site for those off- streetet

2:05:12

parking spaces. So, none proposed. Uh,

2:05:15

as Mr. Knight uh indicated, we need

2:05:18

relief from the sideyard setback along

2:05:20

uh Regina Street uh and uh the 20% width

2:05:26

prevailing width. Uh which I have on the

2:05:28

zoning data table as an average of about

2:05:30

22 feet, but that that really is an

2:05:32

average. Um

2:05:35

in lot six, there are two parking spaces

2:05:38

required and unproposed. We also have a

2:05:40

sideyard setback that'd be on the lefth

2:05:42

hand side or the west side of that lot

2:05:45

uh where we are encroaching into that 4

2:05:47

foot required setback and there are five

2:05:49

trees as Mr. McGomey mentioned lot seven

2:05:53

two parking spaces are required there

2:05:55

are zero proposed and again the sideyard

2:05:58

setback is required to be 4 feet we are

2:06:00

encroaching into that uh on that

2:06:02

left-hand side lot eight there are two

2:06:05

parking spaces required and zero are

2:06:07

proposed and lot nine we have three

2:06:11

proposed off- streetet parking spaces

2:06:12

but again given the constraints and the

2:06:14

desire to try to keep some lawn area

2:06:17

behind the lot or behind the units Um,

2:06:20

we are proposing those parking spaces

2:06:22

within the rear yard setback. There's

2:06:25

also a side sideyard encroachment on the

2:06:27

south side at the bottom of the plan.

2:06:29

Uh, that's a 4-ft requirement. And there

2:06:31

is one tree uh located in the area of

2:06:34

the parking spaces that is required to

2:06:36

be removed to provide those parking

2:06:37

spaces.

2:06:38

>> Nice job. Thank you. You could please

2:06:40

turn to exhibit A3.

2:06:48

Is exhibit A37 pages long?

2:06:55

>> I'm gonna go with yes.

2:06:56

>> Thank you. Um,

2:06:59

what is exhibit A3?

2:07:01

>> Uh, those appear to be Google Earth uh,

2:07:04

photos or I'm sorry, street view photos

2:07:06

from Google.

2:07:07

>> Would you disagree with me if I told you

2:07:09

these were images taken from the

2:07:11

narrative? Probably about half of the

2:07:13

images that that were included in the

2:07:15

narrative.

2:07:15

>> Uh, no. Do they generally give an idea

2:07:19

of of what these existing lots look

2:07:21

like?

2:07:22

>> Uh yes, they do. They're most of them

2:07:24

are open lawn areas with uh degraded

2:07:26

curbs and sidewalks.

2:07:28

>> Vehicles parked in the grass.

2:07:30

>> There are a few with uh vehicles that

2:07:32

are parked on them illegally.

2:07:40

>> And then lastly, uh if you could please

2:07:42

turn to exhibit A4.

2:07:46

What is exhibit A4?

2:07:48

>> That is a a rendering done by the

2:07:50

architect of what one of the units would

2:07:52

look like. It's a a four building unit

2:07:55

with eight units.

2:07:58

>> Uh and this is generally consistent with

2:08:00

what was done with phase one?

2:08:01

>> That's correct.

2:08:02

>> Great. Have you reviewed the application

2:08:05

and the narrative included with it?

2:08:07

>> I have. Yes.

2:08:07

>> And to the extent applicable, do you

2:08:09

adopt the comments made therein as your

2:08:11

own?

2:08:11

>> I do.

2:08:12

>> Great. So, we're happy to answer any

2:08:14

questions that that the board might

2:08:16

have.

2:08:23

>> Either one of you

2:08:26

can start.

2:08:32

>> Good evening. Thank you. I

2:08:36

start I saw a lot of your I'll give my

2:08:39

first question. Have you got your

2:08:43

Have you registered CRW for the storm

2:08:47

mitigation

2:08:50

storm mitigation?

2:08:52

>> Yes, we have. We've submitted the CRW

2:09:03

about fencing, but you're you're

2:09:05

basically saying fencing it doesn't

2:09:07

really match the neighborhood that this

2:09:08

is being put in or it's not a clear

2:09:12

match. And I always ask for architects

2:09:14

when they build in these areas, you

2:09:16

know, do you are you going to try to

2:09:17

match the area that you're building in?

2:09:19

Okay.

2:09:21

>> Correct.

2:09:25

>> Lighting. This is going to be

2:09:27

conjunction with security. Okay. This is

2:09:30

a pretty good chunk of uh Allison Hill

2:09:33

to the

2:09:36

west of Ma Street. Um

2:09:41

The lighting is are you going to are you

2:09:43

going to augment the lighting that when

2:09:45

we start building these places, put

2:09:48

additional lighting up?

2:09:49

>> We will. We have a lighting plan that

2:09:51

we're ready to submit with the land

2:09:52

development application of the city for

2:09:53

review. We'll have uh pole lights. God

2:09:56

bless you. Pole lights around the

2:09:58

parking areas. Um and then we do have

2:10:01

some wall packs up on the sides of some

2:10:03

of the buildings uh where we have yard

2:10:05

areas adjacent to those buildings.

2:10:08

you partner or have taken this and I

2:10:12

wonder has the HPD looked at this too

2:10:14

about that area again maybe putting some

2:10:17

cameras and stuff in that area.

2:10:19

>> I think there is a plan to have cameras

2:10:20

up. We have cameras up in phase one on

2:10:23

the units.

2:10:27

Well, we already have cameras on phase

2:10:29

one on every corner of each building,

2:10:32

all four corners and on some of the

2:10:33

pools

2:10:35

>> basically tied into HPD or

2:10:39

you're going to basically provide your

2:10:41

service buildings. Are you security?

2:10:46

>> Well, on phase one, our security our our

2:10:48

cameras go straight to the police

2:10:50

department. Plus, we we have them on our

2:10:52

on our phones as well. Far as owners

2:10:55

>> and the property managers.

2:10:57

>> Okay.

2:11:04

And

2:11:09

just to make clear, I'm aware of Cooper.

2:11:12

I've actually worked with them on other

2:11:14

projects through Tri County. So, okay.

2:11:17

of reputation in central Pennsylvania,

2:11:20

different developments, especially in

2:11:23

Carlile County. So, thank you. Um, and

2:11:29

you've already talked about the

2:11:30

affordability. Yes, you stole my thunder

2:11:34

there. Okay.

2:11:37

It's 60% of the U.

2:11:40

So, I'm getting tied up.

2:11:44

This is a

2:11:46

Okay.

2:11:49

Um, and I see it's it's going to be a

2:11:51

mixture of town houses, duplexes, and

2:11:54

you say triplexes. Um, these are going

2:11:57

to be uh two level buildings.

2:12:02

>> Yes, it'll be the mix of two and three

2:12:04

two and threetory buildings.

2:12:10

>> Let's see.

2:12:13

I'm going to ask this out of the city. I

2:12:15

know we did a lot a few years ago. We

2:12:18

took a lot of solar cells out that were

2:12:21

supposed to be put into storage or

2:12:22

something with these used to be on

2:12:25

Seventh Street.

2:12:26

>> The DH where DHH was. We took and

2:12:30

reclaimed all those solar panels, all

2:12:32

that equipment. You still we still have

2:12:34

that be added to this or

2:12:36

>> I I don't know if we still have those. I

2:12:38

remember at the time um one of the

2:12:40

things our um

2:12:43

uh our sustainability coordinator

2:12:45

admitted at the time is that they were

2:12:46

toward the end of their useful life and

2:12:49

I think between the time that they've

2:12:51

been taken down and now they're probably

2:12:55

not viable. And even if they still had

2:12:57

some uh viability left, like you

2:13:00

probably it probably wouldn't

2:13:03

benefit to use them as opposed to just

2:13:05

going out and getting new solar panels

2:13:07

that had a 30-year lifespan still to go.

2:13:09

So, I don't know that they're they're

2:13:10

available. My guess is they wouldn't be

2:13:12

a good candidate to use anyway.

2:13:18

>> Okay.

2:13:18

>> Would this be part of uh some of the

2:13:22

from the developer basically providing

2:13:25

solar assistance for

2:13:28

car requirements.

2:13:30

>> Um solar specifically is is not a part

2:13:33

of the plan but I can say um through the

2:13:35

financing we commit to a handful of

2:13:37

things. Um one of those is green

2:13:39

certifications. So this build or all

2:13:41

these buildings will be lead silver um

2:13:43

in addition to having a reduced hers

2:13:45

index for energy efficiency.

2:13:48

>> Again it goes back to the affordability

2:13:50

issue. Okay. you're going to be

2:13:53

basically moving into this.

2:13:57

That's all. Thank you.

2:13:59

>> Thank you.

2:14:06

>> Thank you.

2:14:16

>> Most of the funding for this is

2:14:19

Pittsburgh

2:14:24

Financial

2:14:28

>> FHLB. No, it would just be the majority

2:14:31

of financing is coming from um the

2:14:33

Pennsylvania Housing Finance Agency, not

2:14:35

the Pittsburgh FHLB.

2:14:37

>> Um but it's tax credit development.

2:14:40

>> So,

2:14:41

>> correct.

2:14:46

>> Okay.

2:14:48

U Mr. Knight, do you have anything else

2:14:50

to add? I just had one question though

2:14:52

for you too with regard to that

2:14:54

condition with regard to the fencing.

2:14:56

Any comment with regard to that?

2:14:58

>> I thought that might come up. Um and uh

2:15:00

no I it was not a necessarily it was a

2:15:03

recommendation not like a requirement

2:15:05

necessarily and uh you know we had

2:15:07

talked about security and things like

2:15:09

that and you know when we're looking at

2:15:11

projects especially new construction uh

2:15:13

we try and uh if not overtly um try to

2:15:18

implement like the uh SEPTED uh

2:15:20

principles which is crime prevention

2:15:22

through environmental design and like

2:15:24

one of the things they recommend doing

2:15:25

is I put up fences because it helps

2:15:27

establish like territorial reality and

2:15:29

access control to sites. Uh, but we do

2:15:33

uh can certainly appreciate the

2:15:35

applicants um uh concerns about

2:15:37

long-term maintenance and and whatever.

2:15:40

And and and as you saw in the pictures

2:15:42

that they provided there, like you do

2:15:43

see cars parked up on the grass, which

2:15:45

you see in some of the project sites

2:15:47

now. So, we just want to make sure in

2:15:49

some of these like interstitial spaces

2:15:50

around the buildings that we're not

2:15:53

leaving them open for similar

2:15:54

activities. So if they're putting in I

2:15:56

don't know boulders or arborvay or

2:15:58

something like that to just basically

2:16:00

prevent that kind of stuff and again to

2:16:02

create a yard really instead of

2:16:04

something that's just kind of open to

2:16:06

the street but like a yard a space for

2:16:08

the tenants to where they feel like you

2:16:10

know it's more private and uh you know

2:16:13

their own space uh however that occurs

2:16:16

landscaping fences whatever you know

2:16:18

we'd be happy and I think you know uh

2:16:21

they'll be the city arborist will be

2:16:23

reviewing the land development plan

2:16:24

that's submitted

2:16:25

And my guess is they'll have some

2:16:27

recommendations. We may even have

2:16:29

plings. We can, you know, help provide

2:16:31

the applicants in the interest of

2:16:32

affordability. Um, you know, we're out

2:16:34

there planting street trees, you know,

2:16:36

on a on a fairly regular basis. So, uh,

2:16:39

we can help to coordinate those efforts

2:16:41

that they're that we're already doing as

2:16:42

the city with what the applicants are

2:16:44

proposing here. And is that where

2:16:47

because that condition goes on right

2:16:48

where where it talks about the

2:16:50

coordinating with the city arborist but

2:16:52

also about planting new trees where they

2:16:55

may be removed or in tree pits that's

2:16:57

where also would come up in the land

2:16:58

development phase. Correct.

2:17:00

>> Correct. Yeah.

2:17:00

>> Right.

2:17:01

>> Yeah. I I think both with respect to the

2:17:04

uh to the fencing to kind of designating

2:17:07

areas and the sidewalk I think we're

2:17:09

generally good with you know continuing

2:17:11

to have discussions with Jeff through

2:17:13

land development. Um, so if those

2:17:15

conditions could be modified to to work

2:17:17

with planning as we go through land

2:17:19

development, I think that'd be our

2:17:20

preference.

2:17:22

>> How then let's do with with regard to

2:17:25

condition three for them to consider

2:17:27

because that's the other one with the

2:17:29

sidewalk. How right applicant should

2:17:32

reconstruct all sidewalks

2:17:35

um to the full width and which is really

2:17:37

the issue, right? The width is that

2:17:40

>> that's that's correct. We're trying to

2:17:41

make it we we would prefer to make it

2:17:43

consistent with phase one and and keep

2:17:46

them aligned with phase one for kind of

2:17:48

consistency in that neighborhood.

2:17:50

Certainly understand where where Jeff is

2:17:52

coming from and so we can continue to

2:17:54

have that conversation. I think you know

2:17:56

these these two groups work well

2:17:58

together.

2:17:59

At the end of the day, uh, you know, the

2:18:01

city engineer is in charge of, uh,

2:18:03

public rights away. Um, if the city

2:18:05

engineer feels the proposed sidewalks

2:18:08

are sufficient, you know, that'll be up

2:18:11

to them to make, uh, that no comment in

2:18:14

their review of the case. Uh, or if they

2:18:16

agree with the planning bureau or some

2:18:18

somewhere in the middle. Uh, so I think

2:18:20

that can definitely be coordinated in

2:18:22

future discussions with the applicant

2:18:23

and with the, uh, city engineers office.

2:18:25

Okay. Yep.

2:18:28

>> Okay.

2:18:29

you guys want to discuss or any anybody

2:18:33

uh here else that wants to com uh

2:18:35

comment on this application.

2:18:39

Okay.

2:18:47

All right. And what I would say right is

2:18:50

the approval then with condition one and

2:18:52

two. Okay.

2:18:54

>> Great.

2:18:54

>> Say okay. All right. Uh, do I have a uh

2:18:58

a motion to approve application uh 2640

2:19:04

uh for the special exceptions and the

2:19:06

dimensional variances with conditions

2:19:09

one and two stated by the planning

2:19:12

commission?

2:19:17

>> Motion.

2:19:18

>> Okay. Do I have a second?

2:19:20

>> Second.

2:19:20

>> Okay. All in favor?

2:19:22

>> I

2:19:23

>> Okay,

2:19:24

then uh it's approved and I will get

2:19:27

that decision out to you.

2:19:28

>> Thank you very much. Appreciate it.

2:19:30

Thank you.

2:19:30

>> All right.

2:19:32

Then just

2:19:34

>> let's just wait till they go because I

2:19:36

wanted to though discuss the first one

2:19:38

because

2:19:40

let me just in going through that first

2:19:44

one that applicant that owner

2:19:48

um if you go through and you look

2:19:50

through the the deeds it seems like he

2:19:53

then recently sold it again to somebody

2:19:56

else. So, which I don't then know who

2:20:00

that person is. Meaning that

2:20:03

who's on there isn't even then the owner

2:20:06

of it on the application. So, if we were

2:20:08

going to consider it, I would then

2:20:10

recommend you know what that that

2:20:13

applicant that owner who's listed on it

2:20:16

isn't even then the owner on it who

2:20:18

signed the application who would be then

2:20:20

the authorizing that and the architect

2:20:23

to pursue the zoning relief. That's not

2:20:25

even the owner anymore. And then I have

2:20:28

the um

2:20:33

let's see

2:20:35

it is okay application 2628

2:20:39

>> that it was then the deed establishing

2:20:42

this the the the owner listed on the

2:20:45

application that was uh October 2025.

2:20:49

And then since then there was another

2:20:50

deed established by the owner listed on

2:20:52

the application who then sold it to a

2:20:55

Levi Fiser who I don't know who it is or

2:21:00

anything like that that

2:21:04

perhaps that I don't know if that means

2:21:05

anything of why that person isn't here

2:21:07

today.

2:21:09

So, uh I actually kind of just

2:21:13

remembered after we had discussed it at

2:21:15

the beginning of tonight's meeting, uh

2:21:17

the applicants had last week said that

2:21:20

they that the property owner wanted to

2:21:23

come and attend the meeting, which they

2:21:25

hadn't been. They had had representation

2:21:27

of the project team. So, they want he

2:21:29

wanted to come and attend and wasn't

2:21:30

able to do so at tonight's meeting. So,

2:21:32

they did want a continuence. Um, and I

2:21:35

think we'll be able to sort these

2:21:37

>> as long as then as long as then they did

2:21:39

contact you, you get it in writing

2:21:42

>> then with them.

2:21:43

>> Okay. Then that's

2:21:45

fine because it was by by the way the

2:21:48

the the recommendation from the planning

2:21:51

bureau and the planning commission is

2:21:52

approval right with

2:21:54

>> correct right and all that conditions.

2:21:56

So, um, if, uh, you know, if that's the

2:22:00

case, because I would obviously if

2:22:02

somebody was here, they could explain,

2:22:03

hey, listen, this is actually the person

2:22:05

who was even the one that was going to

2:22:08

construct or develop the property into

2:22:10

the multif family dwelling unit, all

2:22:11

that type of thing. You know what I

2:22:13

mean? Then then that would explain it.

2:22:15

So, if you want to then uh consider

2:22:18

their request for, you know, for a

2:22:21

continuence, Mr. Knight will secure that

2:22:23

also though in writing. Um, but it does

2:22:25

seem like at least the request came

2:22:27

through to you because the thing that I

2:22:31

didn't want was just an architect being

2:22:34

here and not anybody else because that

2:22:36

doesn't Yeah, that's that's a little

2:22:39

risky then to sit there and do it's just

2:22:41

somebody like that.

2:22:42

>> There were there were other represent

2:22:43

representatives of the of the project at

2:22:46

the planning commission meeting, but it

2:22:47

was just the architect that was uh

2:22:49

presenting. um fine,

2:22:51

>> but and I can and like I said, um I they

2:22:55

informally asked for the continuence,

2:22:57

but I don't I didn't I can't recall what

2:22:59

the email said, whether it was like a

2:23:00

formal I do hereby request a

2:23:03

continuence. Uh but I will work with the

2:23:05

applicants to make sure that that

2:23:06

language comes that they can submit a

2:23:09

email with that language and I will

2:23:10

forward that to the zoning hearing board

2:23:11

once that's received. I would imagine I

2:23:13

would get that by tomorrow or Wednesday

2:23:15

at the latest.

2:23:16

>> Okay.

2:23:17

But I think at least to be safe tonight

2:23:18

that that that

2:23:20

we have um you know that you consider

2:23:23

the board consider a request for

2:23:25

continuence of application 2628.

2:23:28

>> So question so you said they sent a

2:23:31

request in for continuance

2:23:34

um and mentioned that the owner

2:23:37

>> to attend

2:23:38

>> wanted to attend.

2:23:39

>> So you're talking about this new owner

2:23:41

or the applicant?

2:23:42

>> Well, that's what I'm not sure of. So I

2:23:45

didn't I don't know. maybe the new

2:23:46

owner, maybe it's, you know, with it was

2:23:50

transferred within a company from like

2:23:51

one arm to another. I I'm not sure.

2:23:53

>> And that's what I don't know. You know,

2:23:54

some of them, you know, list like it was

2:23:56

a company in LLC that then this person

2:24:00

is, you know, within, you know, within

2:24:02

it and it just happens to be like, hey,

2:24:04

he's going to hand, you know, if it was

2:24:06

something like that that I couldn't

2:24:08

tell.

2:24:09

What I was expecting was they were going

2:24:11

to be here and I was going to then be

2:24:12

able to sit there, you know, and ask and

2:24:14

it may have been cleared up,

2:24:16

>> right?

2:24:16

>> Sir, you know, you know, fine. It'd be

2:24:18

different if it was like, you know,

2:24:20

recommended and this is kind of, you

2:24:22

know, you know, kind of thing, but it

2:24:25

is, you know,

2:24:26

>> recommendation is that since there's

2:24:27

some confusion here

2:24:33

that anything,

2:24:36

you can help clear it up. Right. And you

2:24:39

could even bring that up with them. They

2:24:40

sit there and say, "Hey, listen. You

2:24:41

know what? Uh that that I brought it up

2:24:44

that seems to be, you know, transferred

2:24:46

to this, you know, one person, make sure

2:24:48

that person is the one who's there."

2:24:51

>> Yeah. I I'll make sure I I'll make sure

2:24:53

I convey to them that they need to

2:24:54

reconcile the ownership issue to ensure

2:24:56

that they have legal standing to be

2:24:58

heard

2:24:58

>> because everything else could be, you

2:24:59

know, really could be fine. So yeah,

2:25:01

>> but uh how about a motion then to uh

2:25:04

grant the continuence of application

2:25:06

2628 to the um what is the June the the

2:25:11

the June zoning here board meeting?

2:25:14

>> Motion.

2:25:14

>> Okay. Do I have a second?

2:25:16

>> All in favor?

2:25:17

>> I

2:25:17

>> Okay.

2:25:19

>> Y

2:25:22

motion to adjurnn.

2:25:26

>> Motion to

2:25:31

the May 18th zoning board meeting.

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