The Rapture Debate - Revelation TV

Heat. Heat.

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Welcome to the rapture debate here on

Revelation TV. Joined by two uh epic uh

debaters of varying experience and I'd

like to introduce uh them uh to you. Uh

we have a wonderful uh background I have

to say and thank you to those who

created this amazing studio so that we

could boldly go where no man has gone

before. And I would like to introduce

first John Campbell uh John your former

left tenant colonel uh in the British

Army which will uh prepare you well for

this encounter. You're also um well

known as a presenter on Bible study and

an author and we will talk maybe at the

end of the show about your your prolific

book that you have in front of you and

uh Derek Walker well known to viewers as

the pastor of the Oxford Bible Church,

author of many books. I don't know

whether you've reached 20 yet. Oh, 20.

Yeah, I thought you had. And um and of

course um wellrespected Bible teacher.

Thank you both for joining us. I'm I'm

going to just start with a couple of

scriptures which we will we we will all

I think agree with. And um by the way,

welcome to all of you uh uh who are

tuning in, especially if this is your

first occasion to watch Revelation TV.

And uh we will have an opportunity after

the formal debate for you to uh have

your emails read out. So please feel

free to email during uh the first hour

and we will bring your thoughts and

questions on the topic of the rapture uh

after the formal debate. I want to start

with uh 2 Timothy 3:E 16. All scripture

is God breathed and is useful for

teaching, rebuking, correcting and

training in righteousness. So we're

setting the ground rules first between

us that we all uh believe in the

authority of the scripture and in the

plain reading of the text. Uh so that's

very important for us to set out also um

to narrow the debate because the subject

of the Lord's return is a big one. So uh

we all agree uh in a premillennial uh

position uh that uh there will be also

and by the way this is mentioned in

revelation 19 and 20 uh that Jesus will

return in power and glory and then he'll

establish his millennial kingdom the

mess on earth the messianic kingdom and

that's in revelation 20 and then also uh

just again setting out our our positions

uh We all agree that uh the Lord will

come in power and glory to establish his

kingdom and there will be a time called

the tribulation, a time of great

distress. And what and that's described

through a number of chapters of

Revelation from uh chapter 6 through to

18. It will last um at least 7 years and

it will come to a climax with the great

and awesome day of Christ's return to

establish the kingdom.

But that I don't want to restrict our

discussion too much, but it's important

for us not to go down rabbit holes um of

of some obscure elements. And also for

the folks emailing in try and stick to

this point and and this is the point

when when will be the rapture will it be

uh

pre tribulation mid-tribulation if I

dare may say or post-tribulation or we

could say will it be uh uh

pre-tribulation or will it not be

pre-tribulation but I'm going to read

another scripture and um I'm reading by

the way from the uh New International

Version, which I can be corrected on

later if you want to email in and say,

"Oh, yeah, I haven't got that quite

right, Tim." But in one Thessalonians 4,

this is really the key passage uh from

verses 14 to 18, the familiar uh uh

verses, but let's read this. We believe

that Jesus died and rose again. And so

we believe that God will bring with

Jesus those who have fallen asleep in

him. According to the Lord's own word,

we tell you that we who are still alive,

who are left till the coming of the

Lord, will certainly not precede those

who have fallen asleep. For the Lord

himself will come down from heaven with

a loud command uh with the voice of the

archangel and with the trumpet call of

God. And the dead in Christ will rise

first. After that, we who are still

alive and are left will be caught up

with them in the clouds to meet the Lord

in the air. And so we will be be with

the Lord forever. Therefore, encourage

each other with these words. And that's

our chief purpose is that we will honor

the Lord uh in this uh debate and we

will encourage each other to search the

scriptures and to be expectant of the

Lord's return.

Now the formal that's the informal bit

the formal bit. Now uh I think we've

agreed uh between us that Derek will go

first um and it will be a 20inut uh

statement on

uh the

pre-tribulation rapture and and John

will then have 20 minutes to uh give his

statements on uh potentially the non

pre-tribulation. Well, it's the rapture.

Yes. Um, and uh Derek, I'm going to set

my uh uh clock. It won't there won't be

an alarm, but I'll give a few little

hints that you're approaching your 20

minute marker, and you may begin.

Excellent. Thank you, Tim. So, to set

the scene, I want to say this that the

Old Testament prophets presented two

visions of Messiah's coming. First, he'd

come to suffer and die and rise again

for our salvation. And secondly, he

would come in power and glory as the

king of kings to establish his kingdom

on earth. And these two visions

obviously are so different they can't

happen at the same time. The Jews as a

whole made the mistake of focusing on

his coming in glory and they ignored the

other prophecies and as a result they

weren't ready to receive him at his

first coming when he had to come as the

suffering servant uh because they were

focused on his coming as the king. Now,

of course, we know that Jesus fulfills

both visions through his first coming as

our suffering savior and his second

coming as the king of glory. Now, when

we come to study the New Testament

prophecies of Christ's return, we're

faced with a similar problem. There are

two very different descriptions of his

coming

and they can't be reconciled. Uh that is

that they can't happen at the same time.

So we can either make the same mistake

as the Jews and just focus on one set of

prophecies and not take the other set

seriously and literally or we can give

them equal weight and conclude that

Christ Christ's return will be in two

stages. Now let me explain the problem.

Some prophecies give a detailed sequence

of signs and timings that lead up to

Christ coming in power and glory. for

instance through the book of revelation

um the olivette discourse Matthew 24 um

to 2 Thessalonians 2 as well and and so

because of these signposts as it were

someone living in the seven years before

Christ's return will be able to

calculate it to the day in fact for

example Daniel 12:11 says that the

abomination of desolation will stand for

1,290 days and that's until Christ

returns So they'll be able to predict uh

when Christ returns. On the other hand,

so that's one set of prophecies. On the

other hand, many other prophecies of his

coming strongly emphasize that it's

imminent. What imminence means, and it's

a major doctrine in many New Testament

scriptures, is it could happen at any

time. We just don't know when it's going

to happen. There are no warning signs,

no warning events, no no events that

must happen first. And so no one can

know when he's coming. And therefore the

me there are many exhortations that we

must constantly look and wait and watch

for for Christ Christ's return and and

which is at hand so that we're always

ready for him and and so that is our

focus as it were. Um, and so God, he

deliberately keeps the timing secret of

this event so that we'll live in the

continual expectancy that he might come

today. That at any moment we'll find

ourselves standing before him at his

judgment seat to give an account and to

receive our rewards. And and that is a

very strong motivation.

But if his coming is at least seven

years uh you know there's going to be at

least seven years of clear signs then of

course all these injunctions to watch to

wait for uh to look for to live in that

expectancy you know they they don't make

sense. Now the problem is made worse

between these two descriptions of these

two

uh comingings you might say of Christ

when you look at the conditions before

these comeings. So before his coming in

power and glory, all hell will be

breaking loose on earth uh as described

in Revelation. You know, the trumpet

judgments, the world empire of the

antichrist, the the mark of the beast,

the bowls of wrath leading up to

Armageddon, a time described by Daniel,

Jeremiah, and Jesus as the the great

tribulation far worse than any other

time in history. So much so that Jesus

said that all flesh would be destroyed

if he didn't cut that time short by his

return. Matthew

24:22. Um, on the other hand, the

prophecies of his imminent coming

describe normal life going on uh before

he comes. Um, so that the world is

saying peace and safety. As a result,

the world is taken totally by surprise

by his coming uh and and is not is not

ready for what's going to happen as a

result. And so the only way to do

justice to both these two very different

visions of Christ coming is to say as

with Christ's first and second coming is

to say that they'll be fulfilled by

Christ at two distinct times rather than

all rather than all on the same day. Now

to understand why his coming must be in

two stages, it's necessary to understand

the nature of the time leading up to his

return in power and glory. It's called

the day of the Lord or tribulation. It's

a period of history in which God moves

in judgment and wrath and it climaxes

with the great and awesome day of the

Lord's return in glory. It's a time of

worldwide judgment. It's revealed in

great detail in the Old Testament in

through the prophets and in the New

Testament especially in Revelation

6-19. And this time is also known as as

the tribulation. It's also called the

hour of trial. Uh it's also known by the

Jews as the birth pains of the Messiah.

Uh leading up to Messiah's coming. Uh

it's also called the end of the age or

the consummation of the age, the

Sentellia, the the final part of the

age. And and now the New Testament is

clear that Christ has died for our sins.

So as far as believers are concerned,

we're under his blood. And so we are not

appointed to go through the wrath of God

to face those judgments. And therefore,

Christ must save us from this time of

wrath that's coming on the whole world.

And the only way he can do this is by

coming for his church to remove her from

the earth in the rapture before this day

of the Lord begins. And so the

pre-tribulation rapture harmonizes all

the scriptures about Christ's return

saying that at first at any moment he

will come in the air to receive his

church to himself and take her to

heaven. This in turn will initiate the

day of the Lord uh which is at least

seven years of escalating judgments on

earth known as the tribulation and that

will come to their climax at his coming

in power and glory to establish his

kingdom on the earth. So that kind of

sets the scene and now I want to just

give a selection of scriptures that will

demonstrate that this is the plain

teaching of Jesus and the apostles. I

want to start with John chapter 14 verse

2 and three. Jesus's wonderful promise

to his disciples as he preparing them

for his death. In my father's house, and

that's of course heaven. We pray to our

father who art in heaven. In my father's

house are many mansions. If it were not

so, I would have told you. I go to

prepare a place for you. And if I go and

prepare a place for you, I will come

again. And actually, this is in the

present tense. I am coming again. This

is I'm going to mention this a few

times. It's the futuristic use of

the of the present tense. So of course

he will come again but he says it I am

coming again. It's like this expresses

imminence. He I'm on my way. I'm I could

be back at any time and will receive you

to myself. This is the word paralano

which I'll come back to later. I'll

receive you to myself that where I am

there you may be also. Praise God. So

this is a promise of a coming of Christ

for his own people only to take us with

him to heaven so that we'll be with him

forever. These are the romantic words of

the bridegroom to his bride and the

futuristic use of the present tense

denotes imminence. And this contradicts

the post-trip rapture because that says

that when Jesus returns that the church

is raptured to meet him in the air and

then does a U-turn to return with Christ

to the earth because of course he has to

establish his kingdom on the earth and

we'll reign with him. So the pre-trip

view agrees with this verse that

actually Jesus return comes and takes us

to heaven and that's where we'll be

during the tribulation. Now my my second

scripture is is looking at this in the

book of revelation. Revelation 4:1

starts after these things and and that's

the seven letters to the seven churches

which describe the church age. After

these things I looked and behold a door

standing open in heaven and the first

voice which I heard was like a trumpet

speaking with me saying come up here and

I'll show you the things that must take

place after this. this is the things

that must take place after the church

age. Uh and so John is raptured to

heaven which some see as a picture of

the rapture. And he'll he's told he'll

be shown what will happen after the

church age. After the

rapture, one of the things he sees in

heaven is seven lamps of fire. That's in

Revelation 4:5. Seven lamps of fire

burning before the throne. And in

chapter one, those seven these seven

golden lampstands

represent the church. So this indicates

the church is now in heaven. He also

sees 24 elders sitting on thrones with

crowns uh clothed with white shining

garments which these three things the

the thrones crowns and garments are

exactly the rewards promised to the

overcomers in Revelation 2 and three of

the church age. And elders in the Bible

are always men. They're never angels.

And angels are never enthroned. So the

elders of a church are the leaders of

the church that represent the whole

church. So these 24 elders represent the

whole church which is now enthroned in

heaven after the rapture. And that's

proved by the song that they sing to the

lamb in Revelation 5:9. They say,

"You're worthy to open the scroll and to

open its seals. Uh for you were slain

and you have redeemed us to God by your

blood." So clearly they're talking about

being redeemed.

um their their men who have been

redeemed out of every tribe, tongue,

people, and nation. They represent all

the church and have made us kings and

priests to our God, and we shall reign

on the earth. And so, this shows that

the church is raptured to heaven in

Revelation 4 and 5 before Christ starts

to release his judgments on the earth um

when he starts breaking the first six

seals. And and by the way, that's how we

know the whole tribulation is a time of

divine wrath because it's init judgments

are initiated by Christ. The seven

seals, the seven trumpets, the seven

bowls of wrath. The word wrath is used

10 times throughout these chapters. And

and so um the church is in heaven before

the judgments are poured out. Uh and so

this also explains why there's no

mention of the church in chapters 6 to

18. not the church on earth. There's an

interesting thing in Revelation 13:6

where the antichrist blasphemes those

who dwell in heaven. Perhaps those are

the raptured saints. Um but in

Revelation 19 now we do see the church

but this time but we see her in heaven

not on earth just before his second

coming as king of kings. The glorified

church is in heaven and married to

Christ. So she must have been raptured

before this. Verse seven says, "Let us

be glad and rejoice and give him glory

for the marriage of the lamb has come."

Which means it's happened and his wife,

and it is the word for wife, has made

herself ready. So she is now the the

marriage has happened. The bride is now

also the wife. And to her it was granted

to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and

bright. For the fine linen is the

righteous acts of the saints. So, in

other words, she's already gone through

the judgment seat of Christ and received

her eternal rewards based on her good

works. And then verse 14 shows the very

same people, the bride, dressed in the

same clothing, returning with Christ at

the second coming. It says, "The armies

in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white

and clean, followed him on white

horses." So, that's us returning with

Christ in the second coming. So, there

isn't a post-tribulation rapture. The

the rapture's already happened. And so

that I believe Revelation makes it clear

that there it will be a pre-tribulation

rapture. Next, we need to look at

Jesus's major teaching on this. In

Matthew 24, the Olivet discourse in

verse three, the the disciples asked

Jesus two questions, two key questions.

What is the signs of your coming in

power and glory? And what is the signs

for the end of the age or the

tribulation? And he answered the first

question in verse 7-35 describing all

the events of the tribulation leading up

to the second coming. And then he moved

on to answering the second question is

what's the sign for the start of the

tribulation the end of the age. And he

says in verse 36 but of but of that day.

Now the but there is per day and that is

signifies the transition to a to a new

topic a new question. Um, and this is

why what he says now is very different

because up to now Jesus gave all the

signs leading up to his second coming.

Now it's a very different answer because

he says, "But of that day and hour of

the start of the tribulation, no one

knows, not even the angels of heaven,

but my father only." In other words,

there are no

signs for the start of the day of the

Lord, the tribulation. So the his coming

in power and glory had many signs but

the start of the end of the age is

imminent. It has no signs. So nobody

will know when it starts except God. And

then he develops this thought in the

next few verses and it's clear he's

talking about the same event. Then he

says, "But as the days of Noah were, so

also will the coming of the son of man

be." So notice he talks about the start

of the tribulation as being initiated by

a coming of Christ. And he says it will

follow the same pattern as in the days

of Noah. For example, just as Noah's

flood was a worldwide judgment, so the

tribulation will be a worldwide

judgment. And then he says, for as in

the days before the flood, they were

eating and drinking, marrying and giving

in marriage until the day that Noah

entered the ark and didn't know until

the flood came and took them all away,

so also will the coming of the Son of

Man be. You see, before the flood,

normal life is going on. And there were

no signs that judgment was about to

fall. And so when it fell, the whole

world was taken by surprise. The key

event that initiated the flood was when

God called the believers into the safety

of the ark, which is a picture of

Christ, who's our ark of salvation. Uh

and and they were raised above the

waters of judgment. Likewise, Christ

will come and call all believers to

himself in the rapture, raising us to

safety above the earth with the scene of

judgment. And then on the same day, God

will start releasing the worldwide

judgments of the tribulation as he

released the flood in the days of Noah.

Luke 17, Jesus adds the example of Lot

in verse 28 to 30. Likewise, as it was

also in the days of Lot, they ate, they

drank, they bought, they sold, they

planted, they built, normal life. But on

the day that Lot went out of s Sodom, it

rained. Notice on the day it rained fire

and brimstone from heaven and destroyed

them all. Even so, it will be in the day

when the Son of Man is revealed. And so,

Lot was removed from the scene of

judgment. And then God's wrath was

immediately released. And the basis for

this was Abraham's prayer for Lot in

Genesis 18:25 where he says, "Far be it

from you, Lord, to slay the righteous

with the wicked. Shall not the judge of

all the earth do right?" In other words,

he and God answered by removing all the

believers from the scene of judgment and

then he released that judgment. And

likewise, God's going to remove all the

believers from the earth in the rapture

before he releases his wrath upon the

earth. If you know, if you think about

it, if he's he's the bridegroom and his

bride, and if he has the ability to

remove the bride before he wages war and

bombs the earth, surely he would do that

if he out of love for his bride. Then he

describes what this imminent rapture

will be.

And then two men verse 40 will be in the

field. Matthew 24:40 will be in the

field. One will be taken and the other

left or left behind you might say. Now

this word taken is paralo. If you

remember that it means to take to be

along to be be with to take to be with

it's the same word Jesus used in John

14:3 when he said I'll come and receive

you to myself. And and it's the same

word that was used for Joseph taking

Mary to be his wife. This is the

bridegroom coming to take his bride to

be with him. And then when it says the

other is left left behind a fee that's

usually you know should be thought of as

abandoned left behind to go through the

tribulation. Then he says two women will

be grinding at the mill. One taken and

the other left. Again they're going

about their normal life. no sign of, you

know, Armageddon and all the all the

other stuff going on in the world.

They're going around their normal lives.

Suddenly, Christ will take his people

and leave the others behind to go

through the tribulation. And and so he

says, "Watch therefore, for you do not

know what hour your Lord is coming."

Notice the emphasis is your Lord. He's

coming for them uh to rescue them. But

notice even believers will not know when

he comes. It's imminent. Now, uh, that

isn't true in a post-trip rapture. Oh,

no. Thank you. I actually got one and a

half minutes. Oh, wow. Okay. Well, he

compares this coming to a coming of a

thief as well, which confirms its

imminence because he says, "Know this

that if the master of the house had

known what hour the thief would come,

he'd have watched and not allowed his

son house to be broken into. Therefore,

you also be ready for the Son of Man is

coming at an hour you do not expect."

And so this confirms its imminence

because the thief doesn't announce its

time when he's going to come. Um when he

comes as a thief, he will come to take

the precious things from the house and

then go away again, resulting in the

house experiencing loss. That's a

perfect picture of the rapture. When

Christ comes to remove us from the

world, he's not really a thief because

he's only taking what belongs to him.

But the world will experience his coming

as the coming of a thief when it

discovers a billion believers. suddenly

taken from the world. This is quite

different from his signposted second

coming at the end of the tribulation

when he takes over the house. Notice the

final strong statement of imminence. Be

ready. Be always ready for the son of

man is coming at an hour you do not

expect. That contradicts the post-trip

rapture because for those in the

tribulation, the second coming will

happen at the exact time God has always

already revealed. Derek, thank you so

much on the nail. 20 minutes. John, I'll

only interrupt you by saying time out.

Yeah, unless I over to you. Unless I

wind up first, which I might.

Um, I want to go attack it a slightly

different way. I mean, there might be

some viewers who have heard me proclaim

the pre-tribulation rapture, and I don't

want them to be confused. I mean, I've

said often on television that I was a

bit fickle about this whole thing, and I

would tend to line up with what I had

read recently. Um, because the arguments

are very convincing. They're very

plausible. And not only that, you want

them to be true. I certainly wanted them

to be true. But I realized, you know,

the Lord had allowed me to wallow from

one to the other to the other. and I

know how he how he treats me. So I was

beginning to recognize this pattern. And

my problem was I was relying too much on

the opinions of men to form my own

opinion. And I realized I got to the

point where I realized that was wrong.

The only place to go was to the Lord.

And so I just threw out a prayer. Lord,

what is the truth? I didn't wrestle with

it. I didn't I wasn't waiting in

anticipation in the days ahead for a

response. And then one day I was just

reading through Matthew 24. Very

familiar passage. You know, we all know

it. We've all read

it. Um Derek has referred to it. But

when I got to verse 30 and 31, which

is, let me just read that out.

Then the this is Jesus talking and it's

he's having a long discourse with his

disciples and he gets the point here and

he says then the sign of the son of man

will appear in heaven and then all the

tribes of the earth will mourn and they

will see the son of man coming on the

clouds of heaven with power and great

glory and he will send his angels with a

great sound of a trumpet and they will

gather together his elect from the four

winds from one end of heaven to another.

Now, we can dissect that, but I'm not

going to do that

here. All what I have to tell you is

that I was it was I was just overwhelmed

by the spirit. Absolutely overwhelmed.

And and all my, you know, my because

I've read that hundreds of times and

never seen it before. my spiritual

blindness, you know, was had had been

exposed. And I just sat there in my

chair

stunned. And I said, "Lord, but what

about the church? If this is true, what

about the church in the intervening

years? If if if we have to stay here for

seven years and you're going to come and

take us back at the end, what on earth

happens to us?" And I have one of those

silences. You know those loud silences

when the Lord is talking to you but but

yet not letting you hear what he's

saying. And it was as if I was hearing

something just out of reach, just out of

hereshot, but I could just grasp it. And

it was something about you're the light

of the world. That's the best I can

explain it. So I thought, okay, I knew

we we were the light of the world. I

knew that. But I I still was holding it

and mulling it over and thinking, Lord,

what is this? And I wasn't struggling

with it. I wasn't wrestling with the

scriptures. I was just mulling it over.

And then one Sunday, I was just sitting

quietly at church just mulling it over.

What a Lord, what does this mean? Well,

I know we're alive the world, but you

know, for the church to be here for

seven years, it's going to be pretty

awful. And then just it welled up from

inside me. Arise, shine, for your light

has come and the glory of the Lord is

risen upon you. And with that I had

complete

understanding. And what I understood was

the church will be radiant in the last

days. It's not the church like anything

we've ever seen. It will be utterly

radiant with the glory of her Lord. Now

whether that's a physical radiance, I I

don't know. We think about Moses who

came down from the mountain and his face

was radiant having spent time with the

Lord. Well, we have the glory of the

Lord in us, the the hope of glory there

and and you know, somehow we're going to

radiate that. How what its manifestation

will be, I can't say. But I just knew

that this is going to be not the church

cowering. It's going to be our finest

hour. Absolutely the finest hour. And

and those prophecies that the Lord spoke

over us, greater things than I do will

you do. This is all going to happen

during this 7-year period. We will there

will be martyrs. There will be people

slain, but they will die in glory. You

know, I've said this to a number of

people, but if Steven had been told the

day before that the next day he was

going to be stoned to death, he would

have been

terrified. But in the moment, he was

filled with the spirit. His face, you

know, with the face of an angel. And

Paul saw

it. Paul saw it. And so he marched off

to Damascus to slay to to to gather up

the the people of the way because he was

troubled by what he'd seen. And so just

the dying of the church in the

tribulation as they're as they're killed

by the antichrist forces will be a

testimony to those watching. It will be

the largest harvest ever. I believe and

I believe this is what the Lord was

showing me. And now as I go into those

scriptures, no I before I do that, I

want to I want to take a step back and

paint a picture. And that picture is one

of typology. Typology and shadows run

all the way through scripture. And they

can teach us so much. Patterns are

prophecy. They have a strong prophetic

element. And I just want to look at some

of No, let me just backtrack a bit. The

the the the attitude I've taken to all

this is Okam's razor. You all know

Okam's razor. Okam was a 14th century

English monk and he in essence said the

simplest solution or rather the solution

that needs the least assumptions is

probably right. He didn't say it's

always right and it isn't always right

but it's a very good rule of thumb. You

know, don't fill the void with

assumptions. just take the facts and ask

what they say. And so this is the

principle I have involved right the way

through that if I had to make leaps of

of leaps of um my own ideas then I would

jettison it. I would only I would only I

have only allowed in the last three

months I've been going this I have only

allowed scripture to speak not the

assumptions of men not my own

assumptions no conjecture no you know

speaking from silence and none of that

it has to be the word of God and nothing

but the word of God so let let me just

look at some of these at at at some of

these types just wind this back a

bit so um you know typ Apology is not

allegory. It's God God has made a habit

of show of doing in shadow uh what he

will later do in substance. And uh if we

want to reme understand God, one way to

do that and we do it today very much we

do it in our Bible studies is to

remember what he's done. You remember

when we were doing the book of Psalms in

Bible study, David was constantly

remembering and reminding himself what

the Lord had done before. So there's

something about what God shows us which

we can pick up and carry forward and I

want to just look at a few examples. Now

Noah is a good one and Derek's already

mentioned that although I have to say

I've I have now come to a different

conclusion. I read the scripture now. I

once read it exactly as Derek did, but I

now read it that the Lord didn't

say as it was in the days of Noah, so it

shall be in the tribulation. He said as

it was in the day days of Noah, so shall

it be at my my coming again. So what we

see is that the Noah Noah's arc and Noah

riding on the waves is far from being

lifted out of the tribula out of the

tribulation is it actually that the the

days of no are a type of the second

coming. That's what Jesus says. As it

was in the days of Noah, so shall it be.

What's it? Let me see exactly what it

was. And he says the same about

Lotus.

Um, but as the days of Noah were, so

also will be the coming of the Son of

Man. Not the not the tribulation, his

coming again. And that is extraordinary.

So that caused me to think, you know, so

Noah is in the ark. Yes, he's lifted out

of the judgment, but but he's not

removed from the earth. And we get the

same with with um Lot. He's taken out of

Sodom. The judgment falls, but he's not

removed from the earth. Incidentally,

his wife Lot is a type of the goat at

the separation of the sheep and goats,

but we won't get into that. And so, you

know, then you think, well, what's

what's going on then? So, who who is

Lot? Who is Noah and his

family? And you see that Noah is a type

of the church. and his

family perhaps saved by covenantal

relationship because the Lord is very

good on that. But that you see that his

family are a type of the sheep. They

have to repopulate the earth. The type

of the sheep and goats judgment at the

end of time. And these are just things

that the Lord has been showing me.

Suddenly there in my mind and putting it

all together has been quite exciting. So

here we have Noah not taken out of the

flood but preserved through it in the

ark. We have Lot removed from Sodom just

prior to the judgment but not raptured

into heaven. He remained on earth. This

is the type. And then the big one is we

get Israel in Egypt. I mean they endured

the plagues but they were shielded in

Gan. Now this is a type of the church

under they they continue to be

persecuted by Pharaoh and the church

will continue to be persecuted by the

antichrist and his forces. But they were

protected from the wroth of God. And

this is the important thing is is seeing

the difference between the persecution

of Pharaoh, the persecution of

Antichrist and the wroth of God. They

were protected. They they were they were

you know they were clearly under the

blood and protected from the angel of

death. the that the the hail didn't fall

upon them. They were when in the

darkness in their in their houses in

goan they had light. So we see that the

Lord is well able to protect his own.

And there lots of examples of this.

Jesus is a great example how he would

walk through the crowd and disappear

when they were after him. The Lord just

made him invisible. That's the deduction

I make. I'm not It doesn't actually say

that but they didn't see him. So

somehow he was shielded so he couldn't

be seen because it was not his time. And

so we see how able the Lord is to

protect his people. And I believe we

will be supernaturally

protected even though we will suffer

persecution somehow we will not be on

the receiving end of his wroth. And

that's because we're his. Now I you know

the ex the argument that that um and

it's a a very emotionally powerful

argument that God is able to lift his

bride out. Why wouldn't he? Well, why

wouldn't he? I suggest it's because his

bride is being refined, being purified.

You know, I used to

think it says how Jesus is coming back

for a bride without spot or wrinkle.

Well, I you said, "Well, of course

that's impossible. The only way we can

be without spread spot or wrinkle is for

him to make it so. And of course that is

true. But my goodness me, this

refinement in the fire of the

tribulation is going to be part of that

process, part of causing us to walk in

the glory of God, in the power of God by

faith because we've got nowhere else to

go in a supernatural economy because,

you know, and we know that, you know,

the Lord is able to provide. We have the

we have the feeding of the 5000. We have

Elijah feeding the ravens feeding Elijah

and lots of other examples. So the Lord

is able to provide for us even in the

thick of tribulation. And it's all these

patterns are there in scripture but

Israel in Egypt is the most powerful

most powerful one. And then at the end

um you know the at the end after the

10th plague they're allowed to go and

that is a type a type of of of of the

rapture the there's no doubt about that

as a type particularly the crossing of

the Red Sea I think and we talked I

think recently in a Bible study how and

this was revelation on the hoof for me

how that that um Pharaoh having be got

thoroughly fed up with the Israelites

after the 10th plague said go and serve

your God. Type of the first three and a

half years when a treaty is formed with

Israel and I suspect the surrounding

nations in order that they can live

peacefully and then he changes his mind

and chases after them and breaks his

covenant with them. The type of the

second three and a half years all all in

there it's all wrapped up in in in the

in the type that it's very very

powerful. And then let's have a look at

another example. Daniel and his three

friends. I can never remember their

names. Everybody else can, but his three

friends in the

furnace. They went into the

furnace. You know, God didn't suddenly

rescue them before they went into the

furnace. He allowed them to go in and he

walked with them and they didn't suffer.

This is extraordinary. So, he is well

able to keep us during these seven

years. And I I only see in scripture one

coming. I I I can't see. And to be

candid, I never have seen even though I

tended to the pre pre-tribulation

rapture. I can't see these two come

these two comingings. Perhaps I'm just

blind in that area, but I can't see it.

And then of course we go on into the

early church. They were persecuted and

martyed, but they were not removed from

Roman oppression. And yet they were

radiant witnesses. And we will be the

church will be radiant witness in the in

the last seven years be the largest

harvest ever reaped and it will be it

will be quite

extraordinary. Nobody will be able to

say they haven't seen because the church

will be radiating this glory of God as

she walks the earth evangelizing and

displaying the power and majesty and

glory of God.

Okay. How are we doing for time? Uh

you've got uh just under five minutes.

Okay. Um so here le let me just stay in

Matthew 24 because there's so many so

many scriptures and we just haven't got

time to go through them all. But Matthew

24 is so clear to me because it's Jesus

says immediately after the tribulation.

I don't know how it's impossible to

misunderstand these words though I did

for years.

verse 29 of Matthew 24 immediately after

the tribulation of those days. So he

pinpoints when it is and then we get

these cosmic things happening. This is

not national. This isn't Israel. This is

cosmic. This is for everyone to see. The

sun will be darkened and the moon will

not give its light. The stars will fall

from heaven and the powers and the

powers of the heavens will be shaken.

Then the sign of the son of man will

appear in heaven and then all the tribes

of the earth will mourn. This is tribes

of the earth because it's this is

cosmic. This isn't tribes of the land

speaking about Israel. This is a cosmic

international multi-galactic possibly

activity and and everybody can see it.

So the earth is the right translation in

this case. Um then all the tribes of the

earth will mourn and they will see the

son of man coming on the clouds of

heaven with power and glory. Next thing

that happens he will send his angels

with a great sound of a trumpet. That

trumpet's picked up by Paul in

Colossians and Thessalonians in

Corinthians and Thessalonians. And they

will gather together his elect. That is

this is New Testament elect. This is Jew

and Gentile in

Christ. It this is not the elect of

Israel. And if anybody wants to argue it

is, which is a perfectly reasonable

approach to take, my answer to that is

let's look at the place of first

mention. And we find that the first time

elect is mentioned, it's in Isaiah, I

think it is, where we're told that

Christ, the Messiah, is God's elect. And

if we're in Christ, then we are all the

elect by virtue of being in him. So, um,

so he's going

to he's going to gather together his

elect from the four winds from one dead

of heaven to to the other.

So that's, you know, clear what's

happening. And then we're told that he's

going to come back. The dead are going

to be raised in Christ first and then

we're going to come back. Come back with

him. I don't know if it's a quick U-turn

or if there's a bit of time for a party.

I don't know. But that's what happens.

The he he returns. The the dead in

Christ rise first. Those alive rise to

join him where they're joined by those

of the church who already in heaven. And

somehow there's a melding together.

These and we all get glorified bodies.

It's too wonderful for words. And we

come back with him and rule and reign

with him.

So, just winding up. I could talk for a

long time on all this because there's so

many things to talk about, but I don't

see Christ taking us out. I don't see

that in scripture. The pattern is no,

you go through it, but I'm with you and

I will protect you and and I will

radiate my glory for you. And that's

what he's done in Gan. He he they didn't

see it, but he was radiating his glory.

if if the is if the Egyptians have

bothered to look and see that these

people were being protected during

during all this trouble.

So there we are really. I mean that's my

position. I believe that scripture

points very clearly to a post

tribulation rapture. Thank you so much

John. Thank you very much Derek for

setting out one wonderful. I love the

the multi-galactic, you know, especially

with our backdrop. I love that. Um, but

before I sort of um, you know, pitch in,

I think, uh, formally, Derek, if I give

you three minutes uh, to, as it were,

probe John's position. Sure. Maybe four.

Uh, well, you never know. We'll see

because we're all Christians here. We I

must say that Derek is far more

experienced this me. I mean, he's a he's

a longstanding pre-tribulationist. I'm a

very short threemonth or so

post-tribulation, but I am convinced. I

I I I always say when I'm approaching a

squash match, I'm a bit rusty, you know.

Over to Derek. Four minutes. Yeah. So,

yeah, just to respond to John's um he

has he brought up a number of the key

protrip arguments, one of which is the

argument from simplicity, but you one

can't really um in other words, it's a

default thing because it's the simplest

position. uh I would say you you can't

trust that in your in a guidance for

truth uh or it's not a major factor

because for instance then you would not

believe in the trinity for example or

you would make the mistake the Jews made

about you know the two comingings of

Christ rather than the simple view that

he'll just come once and do everything

in one go. So I don't think that's a

strong argument. The other thing that I

would say about the typology is there's

lots of wonderful types in the Bible.

Um, but we have to take Jesus's guidance

as to which types apply. And and Jesus

did not say as in the days of Moses or

as in the days of um Daniel. You know,

he said as in the days of Noah and Lot.

And and what I would also comment

quickly is that it seems like the

assumption in the post-trip view is that

the wrath of God is really just the

second coming. And and therefore, you

know, whereas I would emphasize that the

whole day of the Lord is a time of

wrath. And therefore, you want to come

back on that? No, no, I agree. I agree

with that. No, you misunderstood me. I I

agree with that.

So in other words, what I'm saying is

that the typology for Noah works better

because in Noah's situation, the the

parallel would be that that the people

in Noah's day would have been going

through terrible judgment. You know, um

if the Noah's flood just corresponds to

the second coming before that it was all

life as normal, peace and quiet, well,

whereas in the the antitype, there's

been seven years of hellish judgment

going on. And and I would say yes, if it

was just a matter of tribulation, then

we would go through it. But the

difference is it's it's not just about

the antichrist. It's it's a time of

divine wrath. And therefore, God there

are other scriptures that say we have

been saved from the wrath of God. God

has not appointed us to wrath and that

Jesus comes to deliver us from the wrath

of God. But I wanted to spend most of my

time just to address the key verse which

is admittedly the strongest verse that

John that was the convincer for John.

Matthew 24:31 and just explain how I

would read that as a pre-trib. Uh, and I

believe that it makes perfect sense.

Yeah, it does have superficial uh, you

know, similarities with the rapture,

although it doesn't rep, it does mention

a trumpet.

Um, and it talks about the elect, the

gathering of the elect, but it doesn't

talk about any kind of rapture or

resurrection. It also talks about the

angels doing the gathering, but that

doesn't fit the rapture because we'll be

in our glorified bodies. We won't need

an angelic hand up. Our glorified bodies

will be just as quick and good as as an

angelic as the angels. So, it it really

fits people in their natural bodies. Um,

but mostly I would say that you have to

read that verse in context in the

context of the Old Testament prophecies.

And first of all, when it does talk

about the elect, and I agree with John,

it's a worldwide event. It's a cosmic

event, but it is centered on Israel. The

armies of uh Armageddon are invading

Israel. And Jesus returns to Israel, to

Jerusalem, and Israel is his God's

elect. Isaiah 45:2 and other verses.

Israel is my elect. You got to think the

law of interpretation is how would the

original hearers have heard it? and they

were steeped in the Old Testament

prophets and the language Jesus used was

exactly the same kind of language that

the Old Testament used uh to describe

okay the key the key verse that's the

background to this is the only other

verse in the Bible that talks about a

great trumpet he talks about a great

trumpet um it's Isaiah 27:12 and13 which

is the reathering of Israel at the

second coming of Christ because the

remainder of Israel will be reathered to

the land when Jesus returns in order for

her to be established as the key nation

in the kingdom. So it Isaiah 27, you'll

be gathered one by one, oh children of

Israel, so shall it be in that day the

great trumpet, same thing will be blown.

They will come from the land of Assyria,

Egypt, and they shall worship the Lord

in the holy mount of Jerusalem. So in

the context of Old Testament prophecy,

you know, rather than reading it through

the eyes of one Thessalonians, this is

the reathering of Israel at the second

coming, which is a major event. And by

the way, it's the language used. For

instance, in the prophets, it says that

God will scatter Israel to the four

corners of to the earth and the four

winds of heaven. And so this reathering

from the four winds of heaven is in line

with that language. Thank you. That's

great, John. Over to you. Yes. Okay. Oh,

well, I mean, it we could argue about

these verses all day and all night, and

we we interpret them from from our

positions, and we can become a bit

entrenched in our positions. I I I I

don't accept what Derek has just said

about Matthew 24 because this is New

Testament. He's talking to his

disciples. Things have changed and and

the church is going to be Jewish and

Gentile. And it's yes, of course, of

course, Israel is hugely important,

hugely, but it's part of the overall

picture. It isn't the overall picture.

And I believe this is much bigger than

just that. But anyway, we won't we won't

linger there because there's no point.

Um, John 14:2 and 3. Let me just go

there.

See, I think that one of the problems

what? Yeah. One one of Haramana. Yeah.

One of the problems seems to seems to be

to me is that is that the

pre-tribulation position which is

relatively modern. I mean let's give

make it a stretch and say it's 300

years. It's not that old. has has got

created a um a theological framework and

there's nothing wrong with that, a sort

of systemized theological framework and

then it's going to force verses to fit

it. Whereas I believe that the

post-tribulation position just allows

the scriptures to build the framework.

Um and that's certainly how I see it. I

don't see that I have to try and fit

anything to a framework. Just let them

speak for themselves. I think the use of

John 14:20

um 14 2 and 3 isn't where what it 14

yeah 2 and 3 is in my father's house are

many mansions if it were not so I would

have told you I go to prepare a place

for you and if I go and prepare a place

for you I will come again and receive

you to myself that where I am there you

may be also well I think in the context

of all the surrounding scripture and

Derek did mention This this is, you

know, at at at the last supper and the

the boys are

confused. This is very pastoral. I I

this is how I see this that that they

know that Jesus is going to be betrayed.

They're told that Jesus is going and he

they can't follow him. And you can

imagine what's he talking about? What's

this? And he's just pastorally talking

to them. I mean, he says to them, you

know, I'll come and get you. But every

one of them, Bar John was and and he

might have been boiled in oil. He might

not, but he might possibly boiled in

oil. The rest of them were all

executed. So it doesn't make sense in

terms of their own lives. What does make

sense, him saying, I will be there for

you when you die. You I will receive you

to myself when you pass from this world

into the next world.

and to to try and I I can't do it. It

just it you've got to tie yourself in

knots in my view in order to to to make

this fit a pre-tribulation rapture.

And Derek is right. The simplest

solution coming back to Okam's razor is

not always the right one. And I did say

that it isn't always the right one. But

the the contortions that we have to do

with scriptures apart from the plain

meaning just doesn't make sense to me. I

might be wrong. That's a good way to end

your uh your four minutes. Thank you

very much. Can I before I come to your

amazing array of uh emails and texts,

thank you very much and keep them

coming. Uh I just want to uh pitch in

just a couple of just basic, you know,

plain observations. So, so Derek, the

um the detail that we have on the

tribulation and John's obviously majored

on I think in his time on on the detail.

Um why would we have that level of

detail if we're not going to be

around? We're talking about the the

Bereans, the people who search the

scriptures. Um, and also just looking

because you mentioned uh 2 Thessalonians

2 um that again it it talks about uh if

I went to the to verse three, don't let

anyone deceive you in any way. Uh for

that day will not come until the

rebellion occurs and the man of

lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed

to destruction. So, you know, all the

teaching about the Antichrist and, you

know, the details that we do have uh

admittedly there in the bulk of

Revelation, why why do we have it if

we're not going to be if we're not going

to be Yeah. uh here, but we're going to

be up in the mansions in the sky. I I

know this isn't necessarily from you,

but I would say, you know, that is an

egocentric

question. You know, it's like this is

the problem in the church age generally.

It's like it's it's got to be all about

us. Yeah. And that's why there's

replacement theology because Yeah.

Israel, it's not important because it's

all about us now. It's all about the

church. But I would say, well, we had

didn't live in Old Testament times. Is

the Old Testament valuable to us? Yes.

Because it's a revelation of God. And

so, even if we're not personally going

to be on earth during those times, it

reveals to it's a revelation of Jesus

Christ. It reveals Jesus as the judge,

the king, it reveals what he's like. And

it and it also reveals the way history

is heading so that we can discern the

same spiritual forces at work in our

time and recognize them because in

revelation we see them come to their

full manifestation. So there is there is

much value for for us in in it even

though we don't go through that time

because we didn't live in the days of

the Exodus but we still get value from

it. Yeah. and and of course um it's

multigalactic as John said and as our

our backdrop says and you know at the

end of the age um so there may be no

excuse no one can actually say the Lord

hasn't set it out so I I take that point

it's not just you know for us to

understand yeah but we the whole word of

God is profitable to us you know that's

the point yeah thank you I read that one

earlier I just want to p pitch in a

little thing and I do disagree with John

when he kind says, you know, post review

is the straightforward approach to

scripture. I've tried in my presentation

to show that this is the the you know,

this is what the scripture says. Even

the framework comes out of the

scripture, you know, a logical deduction

from scripture rather than trying to

force force fit it. I I would disagree

with that. Great. and and well I want to

now throw to John you know the sort of

Okam's razor the simplest observation of

the post-trip uh position is no man

knows the hour or the day and David

Derek did raise it in his pre first

presentation um if if the rapture is

going to be after this seven years uh

how how is it not possible to know uh at

least the day well we we know that we

know the the time in the season or but

we don't know the day and the hour and

we won't know. We'll know the we're in

the tribulation but we won't know when

day one of the tribulation is. We won't

know. And so yes, at the end of the

seven years we'll be ready for it by

then. And we'll be so thrilled and

excited and looking and watching and

looking up. Look up for behold your

redeemer cometh. For goodness sake, if

you're in heaven, why do you need to

look up? So, this was during the

tribulation and

and there will be a sense that we're

getting close, but we still won't know

that it's Wednesday at 10:00. Okay. And

and just cuz I know in debates you can

sometimes have two positions that both

have a sort of merit, but they don't uh

collide as it were. And you know, John's

John's teaching on the on going through

trial and suffering and being radiant

and being a testimony. Um, that that

sounds quite strong, doesn't it, Derek?

It sounds good and it should really

describe us now. Yeah. But we are not

appointed to go through the wrath of

God. That that would be my point. So, I

think I would see that as a mislication.

Yeah. That um but there will be saints

in the tribulation. They'll get saved

after the rapture and and God will use

them in a great way. There will be many

who who will get saved. Okay, here we

go. Let's let's um I'm going to read

probably a couple at a time uh so that I

don't miss out some of your email.

Satinda writes, "The church is also

known as the bride of Christ and the

Lord Jesus Christ is our groom. As such,

no groom would let his beloved bride

face fire and brimstone, especially when

the groom is more than capable of

removing her beforehand. Therefore,

surely it can only be a pre-tribulation

rapture. That's a great emotional

argument. It carries no scriptural

weight whatsoever. I understand the

attraction of the argument, but we are

protected. That's the point. We are

totally protected. Daniel's friends were

protected in the fiery furnace. They

didn't feel a thing and they came out

not even smelling of smoke. So, let's

get off the emotional roller coaster.

Yeah. And start being real at God's

ability to protect us in the wroth. We

are we are not destined for wroth. We

are preserved through it. We're not

lifted out of it. I I think it answers

the point. and and also the fact that

the bride um a groom can look after his

bride when you know someone's coming to

attack. Now Elsie uh writes, "Why are we

warned to not take the mark of the

beast? If we do, we will lose our

salvation." Uh if we aren't here, so I

just want to put this one to Derek. If

you say we, why are we warned? The

people in the tribulation are warned.

That's in in John uh sorry, in

Revelation 14. And the people in the

tribulation are warned not to take the

mark of the beast. We we we're very glib

about this mark of the beast. Let me

tell you, Israel will all be saved at

the coming of Christ. And they will

virtually to a man have the mark of the

beast. So let we need to stand back and

look at this much more carefully than we

have here the two. Well, Revelation 14

says very clearly that no, whoever takes

the mark of the beast will be eternally

dead. No, you it doesn't have a comma in

it in it says whoever takes the mark of

beast and worships the beast. Yeah,

because you can only take the markship

beast. Israel will be they'll all be

have the mark of the beast. All of them.

Well, I'd rather stay with the plain

statement. It isn't if you take the

comma out, it makes sense. Anyway,

that's that's an interesting answer. I

haven't heard that one before. Um Deb

says, "I will I am determined to read

two before um we discuss them, but it's

my role really." Good evening,

gentlemen. God will say the appointed

time. Jesus, it is time. Go and marry

your bride. Um uh Derek, when will the

three days of darkness be?

Three days. Can you follow that? I think

we're probably meaning the three

um the first half. Is it the first half

of the tribulation? Deb, you might need

to write again on that. Um, my Bible

only speaks of one second coming in

glory and every eye shall see him. There

is no secret coming. What will happen if

drivers and airline pilots are raptured?

It makes no sense, Irene. I'll read

another one. Um, Jesus will first reveal

his heart to the world because of its

lack of love. He wants that love to

enter into heart. He did say, I will

give them a new heart and a new spirit.

They were both from um from uh Deb,

sorry, interspersed by one from Ireie.

Uh one more. This my question here is

for Derek. Um this is from N. Is there

any substantial historical evidence that

the church taught a pre-tribulation

rapture before the 19th century? I do

believe John Derby popularized this

through the Scoffield Bible. Is is it

not evident through the apostles uh

epistles to the churches that early

Christians expected to go through the

tribulation not escape it? Well, I don't

want to spend too much time on this

because it's a complicated area. They

what the early Christians did believe in

was imminence and that was very strong.

They didn't systemize their doctrine. Uh

for instance, they systemized different

areas of doctrine during church history.

uh and and esquetology was only

systemized you know fairly recently but

they did believe in imminence which is

the pre-trip position and the strength

of it is it's the only position that

believe that actually upholds imminence

that Jesus could come today he could

come any time and and that is an

important doctrine and we should be

waiting watching looking for Christ

coming every day we should live ready

for that and and so they didn't

systemize it but they have found um

instances of some of the early church

people actually um who uphold upheld the

the pre-trip. It wasn't majority

possession. A lot of them actually

believed they were suffering under Roman

persecution. So they were in the

tribulation already and so they were

they were thinking, you know, the Lord's

coming is imminent, but they didn't have

a clearly set forth doctrine of the end

times like we do now. Um but yes there

is evidences of some preerttrib things

not the majority position but definitely

it's there in the first few centuries in

the first few and let me just say this

you don't judge doctrine by oldness

newness I mean if we did we'd have to

reject Martin Luther's revelation of

salvation by grace through faith you

know alone because that wasn't clear in

in Augustine and previously the apostle

Paul it's clear but the church didn't

have a clearly worked out doctrine it

took Martin Luther and and Kelvin and so

forth to actually do that. Okay. Uh uh

John um there was another one here. Um

pre or post trip does it really matter

so long as we have eternity in heaven or

or will we be on earth made a new as

part of scripture implies important

thing is where we spend eternity. Well

of of course it is and and in a sense

that's right. Does it matter? Except in

my understanding, what I believe the

Lord has shown me is that the church

will be radiant. Not like she is now be

completely different. This will be her

finest hour and and and she will do

those things that are talked about in

the in the in the New Testament in the

Gospels. She will raise the dead, heal

the sick, and cast out demons as a

matter of

routine, all the day, every

day. Paul and Ruth writes, um, "Could it

be that the Lord will return only when

the nation of Israel recognizes uh that

the only way is to total is total

surrender to Christ or to totally

surrender to Christ?" Right now, they

seem to rely on their own strength and

support of other nations. But those

nations will withdraw their support for

Israel. Then they will realize their

help can only come from the Lord

himself. They will radiate God's glory

in the face of utter destruction. They

will put their whole trust in him. Then

the end will come. What do you think?

Yeah. I mean, I believe that Israel is

central in the tribulation and her

repentance, the national repentance of

Israel. You see that in Zechariah 12 to

14 is is the precondition for the return

of Christ. So that is correct. Can I

raise can I raise one thing? Yeah,

please do. John will be expecting this

viewers and and I'll be up told off by

the pre-tribers for not raising this

issue because for many pre-tribers this

is the clincher argument and and this is

the the argument from the wheat and the

tears and the sheep and the goats

because it describes that during the

tribulation the whole through the test

of the tribulation the whole population

will decide one way or the other to be

for God or against God and they are

described as the wheat and the tears and

ultim Ultimately, all the tears are are

burnt and the wheat are gathered into

the barn. You have the sheep, the the

believers who've proved their faith by

their works and you've got the goats who

then are dismissed get into into the

fire. So, the issue is if the rapture

happens at the second coming, that means

all the sheep, all the believers are,

you know, resurrected. So, there'll be

no living sheep to enter the kingdom and

all the goats are destroyed. Okay? So

you got a problem there. Comment comment

on that. We have more time to make a

comment. It depends on the understanding

of who the sheep are. Either the sheep

come out of the judgment of the nations.

Of course, nations aren't judged.

Individuals who make up the nations are

judged all personally. And some of there

are two groups. There's the sheep and

the goats. They're clearly not part of

the

church, but they are, I put it to you,

they are Christs because salvation is

always through Christ by faith and by

grace. There's no other way. It's the

only way. But they were, these people

who are sheep, I put it to you, were

called before the foundation of the

earth. And when they are set aside, the

goats one way and the sheep the other,

they are because they already belong to

Christ. They might not know him yet, not

theologically speaking, but they are his

and they have been preserved and the

Holy Spirit has been working on them

causing them to

behave in whatever way it is towards the

brethren. That's how I see it. So we we

we part company on this. I it's I

understand what Derek is saying. If if

but the sheep clearly it that's the the

the big judgment in the start of the

millennial reign and it has to happen.

So the sheep are set to one side and

they along with Israel will redeemed and

re uh Israel will repopulate the earth

after the great tribulation. Okay, I'm

going to read read a few more uh points

being made because they're growing the

emails at the sound of Christ's voice in

John 5:28. There is the resurrection of

the righteous and the wicked. One

resurrection in two parts. Acts 24:15.

Resurrection singular tense. Rapture is

harpo to be lifted in the air. It is

adding to scripture to say it is a

changed process in the same way

resurrection is. Rapture and

resurrection must occur together. But

since we cannot breathe in the upper

atmosphere and our unchanged body of sin

cannot go to heaven without being

changed. Hold hold the answer. I'll I'll

make sure I make a few more points. This

one, Enoch was Noah's grandfather of

extraterrestrial origin. Noah was known

as the shining one. Um, and then Jesus

is coming like a thief. Uh, before

Armageddon, Revelation 16 15 and 16 from

Brian. Any thoughts on those three uh,

emails? You don't have to comment on

that. I mean, there's a number of

scriptures that talk about Jesus coming

as a thief. Yeah. And I believe all of

them refer to the rapture. Yeah. Because

that does that image does not fit the

second coming at all. Yeah. So it's a

totally different coming. Um the one

that's placed in Revelation 16, doesn't

mean that that's when the rapture is.

It's just a warning. In the same way in

Revelation 22, which the setting is the

eternal state, Jesus says, "Behold, I'm

coming quickly." three times which is

again a promise of the imminent coming

of Christ to come and for to give us

rewards. Doesn't mean that the rapture

is going to happen in eternity. You know

what I mean? So, but that that is an

important script. We're going to run out

of time if I get comments on all the

emails, but just to be fair to all of

you folk who've written in Louisa, I'm

going to read your emails. The fact is

that the wrath of God is for this world.

Whoever rejected the sacrifice of his

son Jesus Christ, Christ Jesus, who paid

the price for every sin we commit. There

is no mention of the church from

revelation chapter 4 to chapter 19.

Christ Jesus cannot be judged. We who

have been saved cannot experience

judgment because Christ lives in each

one of us. Why would God put the Bible

of sorry the bride of his son through

the wroth of God being poured out upon

this wicked world when they have

submitted and bowed to the will of God.

There are no scriptures to support a mid

or post-tribulation. Thank you, Derek

and John, for the work you've put in uh

uh to support your take on the rapture.

Uh that's from Louisa um supporting the

pre-trip position.

Uh go this is Stephen. Uh good evening

Tim and Derek and John and everyone

watching. When I look at Israel's

history, I'm convinced that born again

Christians will go through the end time

scenario of the seven-year tribulation.

I think that some Christians have the

illusion that they will be raptured out

before the trouble starts. I think not.

Israel's history tells us they had to go

through every trial in various degrees

before God stepped in. Paul said first

to the Jew, then to the Gentile. Why

should we be any different? Obedience to

God's word is the key in Jesus' name.

Also, uh who also went through the

ridicule of a trial and death on the

cross which was pre-ordained by God to

redeem us from sin. Jesus is alive

because God raised him on the third day.

Preparing the Christian to escape

through the rapture is in my mind not

biblical. It's a fantasy. It's from

Stephen. Can I answer that quickly? No,

not quite because I think you've

answered it in your earlier part, but um

after I've read a couple more, could it

be true, Ken and Paul, let's say, that

true Christians who have given their

lives to Christ are uh pre-trib raptured

and perhaps millions of Christians

realize the reality of what has

happened. They return to Christ and it

is they who suffer the seven years of

tribulation. Now, you can speak. speak.

I just want to point some kind of clear

verses that address the second one. Um

Luke 21:34, it says, "Take heed to

yourselves that that day, the day of the

Lord, come on you unexpectantly, for it

will come as a snare on all who dwell on

the face of the whole earth. Watch

therefore and pray always that you may

be counted worthy to escape

all these things that you um that will

come to pass and stand before the Son of

Man." So I I'm not afraid to use the

word escape. Yes, I want to escape from

the wrath of God and all these things

that will take place during the day of

the Lord. And here is the promise that

we can be counted worthy through Christ

to escape all the things. The only way

we can escape all the things that are

coming in the tribulation which come on

the whole earth to everyone is to be

removed from the earth and to stand

before the son of man in the rapture.

I'll read a few more. Peter uh Gray Reed

writes, "Many thanks. Great debate. Just

a couple of questions for now. Rapture

happens when there is apparent peace and

safety. It seems there will be a long

time to wait for that to exist. Main

point reno's day. Does the fact that

after God shut the door of the ark,

there was a wait of seven days before

the reigns

came." You can chip in if you want to

comment on that. Um and then uh this is

uh from uh Lutton. Uh he will deal with

the wicked uh coming in flaming fire and

in judgment on them. Uh and then verse

uh two of this is one 2 Thessalonians 1.

That was 2 Thessalonians 2. At that same

time, at that same coming, he will be

glorified in his saints and admired in

all them that love him. How could there

be another coming when these two things,

the judgment of the wicked and the

rescue of the saints are accomplished at

that same coming?

Um, this one is um that was the one that

I told you about. I know anything you

covered before, let's leave it for the

repeat so people can watch it. Um Jeremy

writes in 1 Thessalonians 4 uh 16 I

didn't think it was the 14th. It must

mean four uh 16-17. The rapture is begun

with a shout, the voice of an archangel

and trump of God. This seems synonymous

with Matthew 24:31 where both the angels

and the trumpet are present, not

mentioned anywhere else. They sound like

the same event. Thessalonians evidently

is about the church. As Paul says, we

whereas according to Derek in Matthew

24, it concerns the remaining Jews.

Maybe Derek could explain if these are

different events. Yes. Well, that's what

I said. That's your argument. That is

the reathering of Israel phrased in the

exact language of the Old Testament

prophets. And that's how it would have

been understood by the disciples who

knew the Old Testament well. And then um

1 Thessalonians uh uh 4:1 16 for the

Lord uh this is actually just reading

out what we uh read earlier. Um thank

you very much for that. Um uh this is

any comment John? Yeah I do I do want to

comment on what this letter is written

to the church of Thessalonica. They were

mostly gentile. They didn't weren't

steeped in the Old Testament. We just

have to take it as it's on the page.

Just read it as talking about Matthew's

gospel. No he's talking about

Thessalonians. We're talking about

Matthew

24:31. That the the background of that.

Oh, we're talking cross in the Old

Testament. Yeah. So, Matthew was

actually the gospel written primarily to

the Jews. So, they would have read it

through Old Testament eyes, isn't it?

Yeah. I thought we talk about I thought

you talk about Thessalonica. Sorry.

Okay. Sorry. No, there isn't. There is

he was mentioning that as well in it's

the rapture is part of the mystery, you

see, which is not revealed in the Old

Testament. That's new revelation in the

New Testament. Yeah. Um and then uh next

one is a pre-trip viewpoint until I read

the book Our Lord Cometh by William

Roland. This is a very godly book.

States the biblical references viewpoint

virtually on every line. So I'm now a

lot more skeptical of the pre-trip

position. That's from John. Uh uh Jordan

says, "What would be the point in the

post-trip rapture if you go up and then

come straight back down again for the

millennial reign of you know this a bit

like the potter say the pot saying to

the potter why did you make me?" There's

some things we just don't understand and

we can't say what's the point. That's

what scripture says will happen. So,

let's just take it at that and leave it.

Um, Mike says, "I've always been taught

that the marriage supper occurs while

the tribulation is happening, but would

that mean the tribulation marts would m

miss out or would they get leftovers?"

This is one of the issues with believing

in a pre-tri rapture as I personally

believe all the bride will be present at

that supper. Yes, that's a that's an

that's incorrect. The marriage takes

place in heaven, but the marriage supper

takes place on earth at the start of the

millennium. That's right. That's just a

misunderstanding. I agree. Revelation 3

uh to the church in Philadelphia, Jesus

says, "I will save you from the hour of

trial that comes to the earth." Thank

you. Um yeah, but what does that mean?

You

know, yeah, Daniel's friends were saved

from the aisle of trial. They weren't

taken out of it, but my goodness me,

they didn't feel a thing. No more

comments until I've read a few. I've got

to say that. It says, "I will keep you

from the hour of trial." It doesn't say,

"I'll keep you through the trial. I'll

keep you from the hour of trial. I'll

keep you from the very time period

itself that will come on the whole

world. That's the tribulation." You see,

that's a plain statement, I would say,

of the pre-trip. Um, did Peter Peter

believe in an an imminent uh coming? Did

Jesus not tell him he would die?

Obviously the disciples would know this

also. I suppose that picks up on this

idea that the early church um were

expecting the imminent coming. Yeah. I

mean we we have the evidence that that

they did and and and you know pe even in

Peter you can find verses that that talk

about you know the imminency of the

Lord's return. Well they definitely did.

There's no doubt about that. Yeah. Uh

and then uh I will try another one.

Please world be ready. It's almost here.

That's a good one that's not attributed

to anyone. Someone's given us Revelation

9:4, but unless you write it out, I

can't read it because I'm reading other

emails as well. Is the Holy Spirit, not

this restrainer in the church to be

removed before the antichrist is

revealed? That's from Vivian, I think

it's referring to. Well, we can

speculate. Some say it's the Holy

Spirit, some say it's the church. The

fact is we're not told and and therefore

there's no point in speculating. Let's

just call it the restrainer and at some

point the restrainer will be moved. It

might be local government. It could be

anything. But we're not told now.

Clearly the audience understood it, but

somehow it's been lost to antiquity. We

just have to accept that we don't know.

I I would claim that it that we can know

that it is the Holy Spirit through the

church because it it's both a he and an

it. If you read it and and it fits with

the whole passage that when the

restrainer is

removed then the antichrist is revealed.

The subject under discussion in verse

one is the rapture of the church. That's

the topic under consideration that he

uses to say why the against the false

teaching that they're already in the

tribulation. And he says the reason

you're not in the tribulation is that

the restrainer that is the church has

has not been removed yet.

Well, the fact he says he and it still

doesn't necessarily identify it's the

Holy Spirit. We don't know. We're not

told. It could be something else. Let's

not try and fill the void with things we

don't know. That's what I'm saying.

Derek may be right. But we don't know. I

would say the context points to that

context because the spirit of antichrist

is in the world. What is re resisting

the spirit of antichrist? It's the

spirit of Christ through his church,

through our prayers, through our

preaching that is surely the restrainer.

Okay. Uh I haven't got many more minutes

left. So a second coming Lutton says

tribulation and wroth are two different

things. Tribulation is man-made. Wroth

is when God intervenes. Christ must sit

at his father's right hand until his

enemies are made his foottool. He will

not come until such a state of things

will take place. Um, that's a good

verse. Verse Psalm 110. A good verse.

So, in other words, when he sits until

it's time for his enemies to be put

underfoot. So, at the rapture, that's

when he is not sitting anymore. He's he

comes in the rapture to initiate the

tribulation. And also in Revelation 5,

he's standing as he breaks open the

seals. So, he's moving in judgment

there, into judgment. Um, Brian says, "I

think to escape is not to escape by

being raptured, but escaping by not

falling for the surrounding evil and not

accepting uh the mark um 666 uh of the

the manu of the devil. Uh and um you

know that that goes back I suppose to to

Thessalonians again. And Deborah uh your

show is fantastic. I like the cosmic

glory backdrop. Very fitting. Israel and

Christianity together is where the real

revelation of truth will come from for

God's plan or or the other and then the

revival which is probably the glory

shining. John mentions pre-post or mid

is irrelevant. Maybe consider Armageddon

is a warning that never actually occurs

because Jesus comes back to rule and

reign in the blink of an eye and saves

us all. Um we're in our last minute so I

firstly just want to say um that there

are books on this subject. Derek has

written uh two books uh the

pre-tribulation rapture available on

Amazon surprisingly uh and dual

imminence. Now there was somebody trying

to give detail on it. Somebody who

raised two Thessalonians one I know the

answer you'll find my answer in this

book. Great. Thanks Derek and John. Mine

Arise and Shine the church radiant in

the last days. Again it's available on

Amazon and in Kindle. Thank you. And

you'll find all the scriptures

deconstructed together again. Wonder.

And I would say

also whether or not it's the rapture, 1

Corinthians 15 is wonderful when it

says, "The last trumpet will sound and

the dead shall be raised imperishable."

Amen. Bless you. Thank you so much. I

think it's been really invigorating and

novel. Bless you.

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