Direito Tributário e Contabilidade

Okay, so now we have our

first meeting, right, Alexandre? And

several other things... very good. I really wanted to... the

other day in my

library I found one of your

accounting books that must be about twenty

years old, for competitive exams. When do I

have it in your library? That

reminds me of a time

I was at a ceremony, at an event,

because there at São Francisco's main hall... I

think I was with Jonathan, Jonathan

Vida, and he said, "You have a book of yours

in my library." I asked, "Any?" and

he said, "Customs Legislation,

Commentary." I said, "Oh my God, you have one for

the first time!" I wrote it, and I was 24 years old

and I hadn't even finished college

yet, right?

And it was a book you paid me to

write in the prep course that I did very

well on the exam. You don't have

any of those books, do you want to write them?" I

said, "Let's pay you how much." I didn't know I was going to get paid in

advance, but you do

n't know, I asked

him to pay me because I needed it. For 900, that's

our tuda for me, and then I went there and

wrote the book. It's not even... just... just...

commentary... I don't

have a copy, just... To give you an

idea, I don't have it... it's my wife, you

already talked to her about the purchase on Estante

Virtual, right? I'm a bit of a dilemma when it comes to

buying things online, I mean, at

24 years old, but then I went to look, I went to

look at the book, right? I searched

the internet, my name is the title of the book, I

found a draft law in my book, I

found a specialization course in

Customs Law, citing my dear

friend, I said, "Oh my God, what a danger!" And the

same thing is dangerous with this type of

accounting, which is just a matter of taking

courses. Very good, but she was here in this

informal chat. But let's begin,

we're here live, right? I always

start a little earlier so that

our viewers can thank

everyone for their presence,

as always, our events

are already gaining a lot of traction.

It's very interesting, the public

is very happy, especially with the

evaluation that the public has given

us, right? Our students, our friends,

our colleagues, those we have

also met through our network, right?

I wanted to thank the presence of

our esteemed speakers, friends,

excellent professors, Mr.

Amauri, Professor Quiroga, Mr. Alexandre.

We're going to do the

presentation here, which was in a... So, a little bit,

very happy to have

you all here. I want to thank Gabriel and Tacna,

who, as always, will be doing our

background. She will be addressing the

attendees so we can issue

certificates. By the way, once again, this is for

informational purposes:

the lecture, lasting an hour and a half,

entitles you to a certificate of attendance.

So, if you have

n't registered yet, please use the links

and register

according to the instructions to

obtain the certificate. Gabriel

will help us. News: Gabriel, our

undergraduate student, is finishing his undergraduate studies now,

and above all, our

scientific initiation student in the city, taking his

first steps in research. Gabriel,

thank you very much for being here.

We'll meet again soon.

And finally, a big thank you,

as always, to my dear friend, colleague, and

companion Alexandre Naoki Nishioka. He

is a great companion here, sharing the chair of

tax law at our beloved

Faculty of Law of Ribeirão Preto in

São Paulo. We've been together for a long time,

walking

together, pushing the piano together,

everything together.

Thank you very much, Your Excellency, to whom I now give

the floor. I would like to

begin the proceedings. Thank you very much,

and thank you, Professor Guilherme. Adolfo

dos Santos Mendes, as Professor

Alexandre was saying a little while ago,

Professor Guilherme Mendes was for a long

time an advisor to CARF (Administrative Council of Tax Appeals), an

auditor for the Brazilian Federal Revenue Service, and

for a long time also a Professor Doctor

at our law school in Ribeirão

Preto, University of São Paulo, a

great personal friend of mine, a

family friend. I thank him for all this time we've

worked together a lot, so good evening to

everyone. Thank you very much,

Professor Alexandre Pinto, who is

also a recent PhD, in addition to being a professor, right? He

gave Lula's national 18 votes.

Now he is an advisor to CARF, he is an

advisor to the Municipal

Tax Council here in São Paulo,

a specialist, master and doctor in

law from the University of São Paulo, and

besides being a lawyer, he is an accountant. To speak

on the subject, professor at FIPECAF (Federation of Industries of the State of São Paulo) and

there, we have here a

person who is not very appropriate to have

here also Professor Amaury José

Rezende, already our professor of faith here

in Ribeirão Preto, he is a Master Doctor

and associate professor in Controllership and

Accounting from the University of São

Paulo. He did postdoctoral studies in

Germany at the University of Giessen, under the

guidance of Bibi, and our longtime friend,

with whom we have

participated in events, master's thesis defenses,

and so on. We also have

Professor Roberto Quiroga Mosquera, who

is a longtime friend, in

fact, he was

in Professor Tyrogue's office in

1991. He won't remember when he was a

professor at FGV and I was,

in fact, an intern at the Crédit

Commercial de France bank in 1992. The professor,

despite being an acquaintance,

was also an excellent

lawyer on the

National Financial System Appeals Board, with whom

we met around

1990, 1967, and to see how

we are, I personally am about her. She

is a Professor Doctor of

Tax Law at USP and at the

FGV Law School, and currently a managing partner at

Mattos Filho Veiga Filho Marrey

Junior e Quiroga Advogados. So, I

thank everyone, Professor Amauri,

Professor Alexandre, Professor Roberto

Quiroga, and immediately I pass the word to

Professor [Name]. Alexandre Evaristo Pinto, right?

Alexandre is discovering Professor

Roberto Quiroga and Professor Amaury

José Rezende, uncertain, closing the

lectures, and Professor Guilherme

will then coordinate the debates.

Thank you very much, Alexandre, the floor is yours.

Hi, good evening everyone. First of all,

I would like to thank Professors

Alexandre Joca and Guilherme for the

invitation. They are professors whom I greatly

admire, and both, coincidentally, had

an outstanding performance at CARF.

So, before starting the

lecture, I would like to comment that I always

use the votes as parameters, so I am

very grateful for the invitation. The invitation

became even more special because of the

company we have here. Professor

Roberto Quiroga is a professor whom I

greatly admire; I was his monitor, I was his student, he

participated in my

doctoral examination board, so I am very happy to see him again.

And Professor Maria Almeida

Rezende, who does a

wonderful job with regard to

tax accounting, is also

in my network of contacts, and

we are always exchanging articles. So I am very

happy to have the company of both of them

for this very cool debate. Professor

Guilherme, I brought... Here's a brief

presentation,

and I'll put it on sharescreen

while you wait, it'll

only be a minute,

it'll never work. Okay, okay,

that

's perfect, everyone. I imagine

you're watching my presentation now, right?

Basically, we're going to talk about the

relationship between tax law and accounting today on Energy.

I'll be presenting it very briefly so we

have more time for

discussion, but the first

important point when I talk about

accounting is that it

attempts to capture a

series of economic transactions

carried out by an entity, resulting in

a final product: the

financial statements.

If you're already familiar with accounting, it tries, as far as

possible, to

faithfully represent these

economic transactions so that this

information can be passed on to its respective

users. Here I'll just present our current

basic conceptual framework of

accounting, our so-called CPC-00, which is

the acronym. What is the objective of

accounting? I've underlined the

main points here, but basically it's to

provide financial information about an

entity so that this information is

useful in decision-making. We have

users, so in short,

accounting seeks to

provide this information about the

financial, economic, and patrimonial nature of

an entity. certain users

is the big one. This is what I like to joke about,

which is why I bring this comic strip

here, showing those transactions so that they can be

entered into the accounting.

This is an act performed by a

human being, so there's an act of

interpreting these transactions so that they are

effectively

translated into accounting. I

always like to bring this slide here

because accounting often

expresses itself in monetary terms, but it gives the

impression of being

exact. By showing that there's an

interpretive work done by

a human being, in this case the

preparer of the financial statements,

we necessarily show a

subjective analysis to a greater or lesser degree,

demonstrating that accounting is

part of the group of applied social sciences.

And I really like to say that in

this interpretation stage, there's a

division of the accounting process,

understood as a process with

at least three stages.

We see this quite a bit in the doctrine of

Professor Elizeu Martins, Professor

Alexandro, and also in the

doctrine of Professor Quiroga, which

is a very interesting article on

accounting law in the first edition of "

Legal-Accounting Controversies."

The accounting process will essentially start

from these three stages, right? The first

stage is recognition, identifying whether

those economic transactions meet

the

accounting recognition criteria

stipulated in the accounting standards. The second

step is the measurement stage, in which

we will quantify that

economic transaction to be measured. Ideally, we

will recognize it for what value.

This is one of the answers

we seek in this

measurement stage. And finally, we also have

the evidence stage.

The bridge will demonstrate to external users

of accounting those economic transactions.

And taking advantage of

Professor Guilherme Mendes's perspective, who was

advised by Professor Paulo de Barros

Carvalho, we always like to

study the semiotics of

communication. Accounting

can also be understood as a

communicational phenomenon, that is, there is

a sender, who will be the preparer

of the accounting statement, wanting to

convey the message about the

economic transactions of that entity. The

message will be given through the

financial statements. The

financial statements will

use a code, which are the

accounting standards in force in that country, and the

receiver will look at that message,

understanding the... The code, which are the

current accounting standards, also involves an act

of interpretation and analysis so

that one can make the necessary

decisions.

Here's an example I really

like from our

accounting theory: Banner, a

German company. It was one of the first

German companies to issue its DRIs on the American stock exchange,

and because of that,

in 1993, it had to present

its financial statements in

American accounting terminology.

And look at the

curious situation that occurred: the

1993 financial statements,

according to the German accounting standard,

reflected a profit of 615 million

German Marks (the currency of the time),

the same economic reality. But

using another code, the

code of American accounting standards, it

equated to a

loss of 1.8 billion

German Marks. So we see this

difference in accounting standards generating

some glaring distortions, even though it

was the same economic reality, it was being

translated with

totally different amounts: a millionaire profit,

another a billionaire loss. That's where

this whole movement of

international convergence of

accounting standards comes from, this need... The

standardization of accounting codes, so

that everyone has to speak the same

language, has been a concern for some

time now, since the rise of

multinational corporations. For example,

here in Brazil, companies had to

do their accounting according

to Brazilian standards and often

report according to the standards

of their parent company.

Then, in the 1960s, the

United Nations created a

group for accounting convergence. But

obviously, with the globalization

of markets and the advancement of telecommunications and

computerization, from the

1980s and 90s onwards, investors demanded more

comparability.

In the 1970s, what is now known as

the current standard was created. At the time, it was

a commit, so it was based on

local internet and sensors. Today, it's on-board, which

had these standards with an

international scope. Prior to these 8

and FSX,

what happened here until the beginning of the

1990s, we still had

the North American standard reigning

supreme in other

countries. Computers even sought

specialization in the standard. The Brazilian Supreme Court (STF), but

some accounting scandals that

occurred at the beginning of this century

at grow.com, among others, led to a

rethinking of the IFRS standard, based on the

logical principles of its

standard, and the Resgate (accounting standard), which may have dictated

some of these scandals. So, this was

a moment when IFRS won,

let's see, the dispute regarding

Resgate in terms of importance. Well, the

need for this

convergence, right? In Brazil, I'll

talk a little bit quickly,

but it arose with Law 11638, the creation

of the CPC (Accounting Pronouncements Committee) in 2005, and the issuance of

accounting standards by the CPC. What is the

result of that work in

preparing the financial statements? They are

the financial statements, and

I'll just list the

financial statements we have in

the CSA law, in article 176. We

have the balance sheet, the income statement, the statement of

changes in equity, the

cash flow statement, and the

statement of added value, which

is only for publicly traded companies. The

explanatory notes also play a very

relevant role in informing in a

more detailed way about the

previous statements and also some sectors,

obviously, publicly traded companies.

Regulated sectors may have some other

demonstration, and it is

on the part of their regulatory body, such as a

reference formula, for example,

in the case of publicly traded companies.

And who are the users of

accounting information who will interpret it? We

have the most diverse possible.

Obviously, the most relevant,

thinking about the developed capital market,

are the investors, but we

also have the creditors when they will

verify the statements for

granting credit, the

administrators, managers, right? But there

can also be various other suppliers,

clients, employees, the government itself or the

general public, the stakeholders.

And what do stakeholders

use this accounting information for?

Basically, for decision-making,

planning decisions, control,

assisting in the decision-making process. This

point I also wanted to

briefly mention is that, because

accounting standards are a human construct based

on the culture of each country, there is an

influence of users on accounting production.

So, some characteristics of

each country will end up influencing even

the formation of the accounting standards of that

country. I'm talking about the pre-

convergence environment. Professor Eliseu

Martins will highlight that

Anglo-Saxon countries, such as the United States and the

United Kingdom, had a financing of

companies more based on the

capital market. Accounting ended up being

geared towards investors as the

main users.

Accounting is more forward-looking,

reflecting more of the

future economic benefits of

quantity, and another

relevant characteristic is that accounting standards in these

countries were

produced by computers themselves.

My professional associations, for

example, the German model, show a

model that is more based on the growth

of companies in the banking market.

Consequently, accounting in

Germany was more conservative, and

creditors were the main users.

Looking at a financial statement, you

had the certainty that you could

liquidate those assets for those

values ​​and pay those liabilities. There was

also a characteristic of

accounting standards being more produced by the State.

Bringing in some Latin American examples,

which obviously

include Brazil, but Italy and France

also had a financing model more based on the

banking market. But there was a great

influence from the government, in addition to the creditors,

and also this issue of

accounting standards being produced by the State.

The French Civil Code

brought accounting standards, and

even earlier Coubertin Ordinances also brought

standards of a W nature,

showing this great influence of the users.

Even though it is

expressed in monetary terms and seems to

be something exact, accounting is not; it is

a social science. Accounting data... These

are approximate figures. And here I bring

the words of a now deceased professor,

Robert Entre, from Harvard: "

Accounting works with

approximate data, it works with

incomplete data and numerical evidence, and

only partial evidence."

So, just as an illustration, I'll show you

Petrobras' balance sheet published on December 31,

2019. Here we have a series of

accounts and their respective values ​​in the

2019/2018 columns, both in the

consolidated and parent company figures. What

's interesting to anyone looking at this

series of values ​​is

that these values ​​are

based on conventions or uncertainties. So, even though

financial statements must approximate faithful representation, they are subject to uncertainties

and conventions. Professors on vacation

used to say that the only

certain information in a balance sheet was the year,

but I like to joke that

even the year is actually based

on a convention. If we were to

work with another

calendar model, the year 2019 is the year 5780 in the

Jewish calendar or 4718. In the

Chinese calendar, and for each group

of accounts, we can ask ourselves: Will

all that amount

to be received actually be

received? Is that

fixed asset truly reflecting its value? Was

an

appropriate depreciation rate used according to the

useful life in relation to the provisions in the

liabilities? Were the chances

of losses accurately assessed?

Often they weren't, because that precision is

unattainable. The same applies to

recoverable taxes, payable taxes, or

assets. Are recoverable taxes payable? Are

the taxes properly calculated?

Very likely, otherwise

we wouldn't have problems with the

Kombi vans and fines to

pay. And that's without considering the

effects of inflation, since

monetary correction of balance sheets was prohibited by Law

9249/95.

In the end, the profit

is driven by

uncertainty; it's not an exact value, right? It

will vary according to the

recognition, measurement, and disclosure criteria.

And that example from Daimler-Benz is

quite characteristic; we saw that the

profit of that company wasn't worth more than

a loss, but rather a profit.

Millionaire, and neither of them is wrong, right?

We can say that it's wrong since

they were made according to the

accounting standards of those two countries.

But even within the same jurisdiction, there

can be a greater degree of subjectivity in the

estimates of revenues or

expenses, the provisions for tax purposes, you see,

in expected losses, or even due to

choices that the accounting standard confers on the

company. Often, the accounting standard

confers a choice, such as we have

in the case of

investment properties, where the standard allows

you to value them at cost or at fair value, so it

says that it's a range of

values

expressed in a certain way. It's a

range whose amplitude can vary

significantly or not, depending on the

degree of subjectivity of that

accounting standard, the accounting choices in that

jurisdiction, etc.

So, just taking a very simple example,

let's imagine the inventory: I

make a purchase of 10 items for R$

100 each, totaling

R$1,000. I acquire the same quantity of

items ten days later, but now

for R$200 each, totaling R$2,000.

Ten days later, I buy another 10

identical items, but the price has increased

to R$3,000. So, I would have

an inventory on the later date of R$

6,000, which is the sum of these three values.

And on the following day, the company sells 10

items for R$3,500. What

I want to show here is that there are some [methods],

and it's for inventory valuation purposes.

When we write off the

first item (the super traditional

first-in, first-out), we

'll write off the ten

items that came in first.

Consequently, from that

revenue of R$3,500, we have a profit.

On the other hand, if we

work with the LIFO method,

we

'll work with the last ten

products that entered stock, which were

those that totaled 3,000.

Consequently, we arrive at a profit of

500. The

average cost, since we average the costs, would be

6,000

reais divided by 30 items, which would give us

2,000 as the

total cost. So, consequently, we would

subtract 2,000 and arrive at a

profit of 1,500. Conclusions here, for

this event, for this issue of

pre-IFRS stocks, just to see how a

single economic update was

captured in three different ways

by accounting, totally impacting the

amount of profit to be distributed to the

partners, as well as eventually the

taxable base. In this case, we are not putting

any adjustments. So, in this simplified case, the profit is the

range between 500 and 2,500.

And one detail is that the

LIFO method is not permitted by our

legislation since we are... An inflationary country.

Oh, and this point is important. So

I understand that profit is based on

several premises, right? And how does that

relate to taxation? Professor

Casalta Nabais from Coimbra

proposes three models of the relationship between

accounting profit, tax profit, and

tax profit understood as the basis for calculating

corporate income tax. The first model is one in

which there will be total coincidence between

accounting and tax profit, with no adjustments.

Obviously, this is the model with the lowest

compliance costs. The

second model would be

a model of autonomy, so each

would be determined completely

independently: one criterion for determining

accounting profit (current accounting standards)

and one criterion for determining tax profit (

or the basis for calculating income tax).

Here in Brazil, we even have some

very exceptional hypotheses in the

arbitrary profit assessment, where you take into account

some items that are not related to

accounting, a percentage of the

payroll, but these are difficult to

apply in practice. And we have the

most common model in most of the

world, which is a model of

partial dependence: tax profit is the basis for

calculating corporate income tax. Several parts of the profit are

counted, but adjustments will be made,

placing these three models here in a

larger line. The more autonomous

the models, the higher the

compliance costs can become. This can be the case when you

have two accounting systems; the less

autonomy and formal dependence the model has, the

lower the compliance cost.

The partial model will have

more or less adjustments, leaning more

towards the autonomous model or

more towards the dependent model.

In Brazil, the Law of the

S&P was a true revolution at the

time regarding

accounting standards. The idea brought by

Decree 1598, also drafted by the same

author of the Special Law for the Pride of the

Quarries, was the idea of

partial dependence through adjustments to

accounting profit, additions, exclusions, and

compensations.

Law 11638 introduced the

IFRS Brazil standard, altering the

accounting provisions of the law.

Initially, the decision was for neutrality

under the Transitional Tax Regime (

RTT), meaning

adjustments were made to accounting profit to arrive

at the accounting profit calculated according

to the 2007 standard. Law 12

ended the RTT. Bringing

specific adjustments to the new accounting system, in a

way, today with Law 12973,

we start from the accounting profit, make the

foreseen adjustments and readings to arrive at the

calculation basis, the model of the value, there are

additions, exclusions and compensations.

The only relevant detail is that

accounting standards and IFRS standards are constantly

undergoing

changes. So in recent years

we have had several

significant changes, and in this sense, Law

12973 stipulated that modifications to the

adoption of new accounting methods

through administrative acts based on

competence attributed in commercial law (

read: CPC) that are subsequent to the

publication of this law will not have implications

for the calculation of federal taxes until a

law regulates the matter. So we

have neutrality for the new

post-12973 standards that alter

accounting criteria. That's why some

professors call Dr. Tetezinha and

Professor Eliseu Martins, usually

called RTT Zinho, and who does this

control? The law itself stipulated in Pará

that it is the responsibility of the Federal Revenue Service to

identify the acts and provide for these

procedures to annul the effects.

So today, in addition to the... Regarding legal adjustments,

we have some neutrality adjustments,

tricks for subsequent

accounting operations (IBR 12973), but they

are also forwarded there as additions

and exclusions. There is no obligation of their

own, just like at the time of the RTT (Transitional Tax Regime) where we have the

S-Cont. It is

the infralegal norm of the Federal Revenue Service

that provides this overview,

Normative Instruction 1753/2017. So it deals

exactly with these procedures

to annul the effects. The identification

will always be done in the form of an

annex to this instruction. And here, going to the

end, I will only give two very brief

examples. The first, Annex 4,

refers to CPC 47, the CPC on

contract revenue. A client came into

effect in 2018, replacing CPC 30, and it

divided it into four groups of

procedures. There are some procedures

that in the annex are considered as

modifications, adoption of new

accounting criteria. So the effects have to be annulled.

There are others that it says have

methods or criteria that diverge

from tax legislation, so it's as if

the criteria weren't new, but they are

criteria that diverge. The

Witcher 3 will address the

indirect impact of items 1 and 2, and item 84

contemplates some items that received adjustments.

It understands that there is no modification,

so no adjustment to

profit is needed. On the contrary, it

also explains what to do

when there is a change; it will create

a sub-account called "adjustment of

gross revenue." Another

relevant standard was also changed: the

Leasing Standard CPC 06

R2, based on IFRS 16. It also

introduced three groups of procedures:

first, procedures that contain

modifications; then, procedures that

indirectly involve

modifications (adoption – these two should

be adjusted); and finally, item 3

selected some items that do not

involve modifications. So this is a

very brief way to start the

discussion, bringing up some

accounting and tax points that I consider

important, and I hope I haven't taken up too

much time.

Dr. Alexandre Alvares, thank you very much for

your presentation.

This is extremely helpful and important for

our audience. You presented a

complex topic in such a brilliant way,

as you did.

Thank you very much, and I am grateful once again for being

here with us. "I want to say this to my

friend Professor Roberto Quiroga, whom I

deeply admire. I wonder if

others will be jealous, but I have to

say, you said this from all

distances, right? For me, you are the greatest

tax lawyer I've ever seen

personally, right? In your

oral arguments, you are someone I have immense

admiration for. Without further ado,

you have the floor.

Thank you, Guilherme, once again.

I appreciate the invitation to be with

you.

I was afraid because when

Evaristo came on, the power went out at

my house, and I thought, 'Oh no, I'm going to be

without internet. I hope it doesn't go down

again.' I almost

joined on my cell phone, but luckily it came back on,

and now I have internet too. It's a

pleasure to be with you, and I thank

Alexandre and Guilherme, as professors

at the Ribeirão Preto Law School,

for the invitation and to speak on such an

interesting topic as law and

accounting. It's a pleasure to be

with Professor Amauri, with whom I've also been

in Ribeirão Preto at some

events, and with my dear friend

Alexandre Evaristo. I

also want to thank him for the lecture and for his

son." That's when someone recently came up with

congratulations, and I wish you much happiness,

peace, and joy in your

home.

And actually,

in my initial 20 minutes here, I

wanted to touch on the subject of the

relationship between law and accounting.

I see many students

commenting on this; it's difficult to

imagine a tax lawyer today, and to

be a tax lawyer, one doesn't work with

accounting. As

our Alexandre said, for those who are going to study

income tax, for example, it's

fundamental to have notions of

accounting, not to mention

more advanced, more

precise knowledge of accounting.

But it's not just income tax;

today, those who deal with indirect taxes

also work a lot with accounting.

We always have

important accounting concepts in

indirect taxes and topics related

to operations, for example, corporate transactions that

are done in law. I will

always have accounting very close to

you. So we would say the following:

look, it's really difficult to imagine

working in the tax area without having

accounting by your side. Therefore,

you have a vision that

accounting is a... Regarding the elements

you'll need to analyze to understand

the phenomenon of taxation, I don't

need to spend much time showing

the importance of

this correlation between the two

subjects. It's not taxation, but

tax law as a whole, and

accounting as an

important science in this area. Okay,

but what happened more

recently, right? With Resolution 11638, which I mentioned

more than 10 years ago,

we had a

very big change. As

Alexandre said, we had a

set of standards that are trying to

converge, creating a

common standard so that we can try to see

the same phenomenon in the same way, without

different perspectives. He gave

an example: if I did it using the S GAP method,

I would have a profit; if I did it using the other

method, I would have a loss. In other words, we

have different perspectives. So the objective

of all this, you know, the so-called revolution, the

transformation of accounting, is that

we can actually see the number and

say, "Look, I understand this

number from the same perspective." But

that's very difficult. Why is it so

difficult? Because the sciences

see the same phenomenon

differently. So accounting will see...

One way, and the law will see it

another way, and obviously, since the two

sciences approach the

same facts differently, I need an adjustment.

I need someone to say, "

Look, consider this easier perspective, an

adjustment so you can see things

as they really are." In other words, we have

a great difficulty in

effectively achieving convergence, which is why

norms came about precisely in an

attempt to fulfill this function of

uniformity, but it's very difficult, isn't it?

How does the law

behave with these realities?

Basically, the law will codify

accounting norms. So, if on one hand

there are accounting norms as norms

of the science of accounting, we will

have several of these accounting norms that have

become legal norms because they were

codified by law. For example, Law

6404 brings numerous articles that

codified accounting norms, for example,

the generally accepted accounting principles,

all those articles that talk

about financial statements. In a

certain way, what they did was codify

accounting norms that became

norms

and therefore norms of law. So I

end up having these intercommunications, right?

Law and accounting are

related sciences, but the law gathers, it

chooses, it makes with... That many

accounting standards become

part of its legal world, insofar as

they are positive law, and today there is even

talk of accounting law, which

would be precisely these

accounting standards that the law has

embraced and codified,

forming a branch that many contest,

but we can say that it would be

didactically easy to understand

accounting law. What would accounting law be, according

to Otávio, is nothing more than

this set of accounting standards

that have been codified by law,

becoming legal norms. Now, what is

interesting for those who are

starting to study the subject of

accounting law is understanding this; it is

fundamental.

And here, in fact, law and

accounting will see certain

phenomena differently because that's what

each of the

respective sciences demands. I'll give some

examples. So let's imagine that you

have acquired a property for one million

reais,

and after you buy this property

for one million reais, this property is

listed as a historical landmark by the state or the municipality,

preventing any type of

sale, transformation, or any type of

work on this property. Imagine you

bought a property for one billion

reais. And suddenly it's listed as a historical landmark, you ca

n't sell it, you can't do

any work on it unless you're not going to do anything with it,

right?

And from a legal point of view,

what is your patrimony? Your

patrimony is having a property that had an

acquisition cost of one million reais,

so you go there and declare it on your

income tax return, "Look, this

property is worth one million reais because I

bought it and paid one million reais for it." But

for a computer, the opposite is true. Perhaps the

property becomes an expense

because, in reality, he can't

sell the property, he can't

renovate the property. In fact, what does the

property give him? It only gives expenses like property tax,

maintenance expenses. In other words, it's just

an archive for him. It

's not an asset. From a legal point of view, quite

rightly, it's not an

asset, and it cost one million reais. I

sacrificed one million reais from my

savings to buy a property.

But for accounting purposes, a

listed property that I can't renovate, that I ca

n't renovate, may well be

worthless. In other words, these are two

different perspectives: the view of someone who deals with

law and the view of someone who deals with

accounting. They are different perspectives.

Therefore, this property, which apparently

cost a high price for those who like to

ask, as an asset, has

a property worth one

billion reais listed on my assets, but in reality, if the

accountant looks at that

income statement and does the following, and

moves here, nothing can be done,

it's worth zero, on the contrary, it only

generates costs, and this is obviously a different

reality.

Based on this example, this is precisely what

we have to understand: the

intermingling of law and

accounting is that each of the

sciences will see these

facts differently, and therefore, at

some point, an adjustment is needed.

Another example that was often given when Law

11638 came into effect, because I think this is an

important concept that we have to

understand, because I can have

different perspectives, right? What I

can see even the same facts from

different perspectives, and we had

the example, for instance, of how

accounting defines what an asset is.

So, if you ask a

lawyer, they will say what

my assets are, that an asset is

the set of tangible goods that

form a universality, and its

concept that we will... So, that

property worth a million reais that I bought is

worth a million reais, but

accounting will understand the asset

differently, right? An asset is something that

will generate future cash flow

with the resources I provide. In other words, if it does

n't generate future cash flow,

that asset is worthless, right? That's why there's

a very clear joke: after Law

11638, if you took a balance sheet—not for those who

give up a lot, Professor Eliseu

Martins—if you took the balance sheet

of an airline company,

and before Law 11638, you looked at

the assets and there

were no airplanes, right? Before, in the

old system, you didn't have them there,

I couldn't see the airplanes as assets,

right? I saw all of that in the liabilities. Because,

in fact, it's in the

lease agreements. But what does

an airline company have? It only has airplanes, right? So,

after Law 11638, what exactly started appearing on the

balance sheets of airlines?

These airplanes are

considered assets even though I don't have

legal ownership of them yet, even though I have

n't bought the airplanes, I'm

leasing them. But how do they... These are

resources that will generate future cash flow for me;

it's considered an asset, which is

why it has to be on the balance sheet. In other

words, I will necessarily have...

This is the need to see things

differently. Just the last, third

example to explain this and make it

very clear what this correlation between

law and accounting is. Imagine the

following: you have taken out a

loan from a legal entity

for 100 years. I lent 1 million

reais for 100 years to this company. The

question is, are you a borrower who

lent money, or are you actually

a shareholder of this company? Who lends

money for 100 years, right?

In fact, it's not the

shareholder. Because it's such a long time that they

lent it, they're not actually

expecting any return beyond that. If it

were the shareholder... In other words, I, as a legal

professional, can say, "No, I signed standing up,"

and what I did was a

loan agreement for so many years.

But eventually, from an

accounting perspective, I'll look at that

differently. I'll say, "Hey, I took out

a loan for 100 years,

so what am I? I am

effectively a shareholder, right?" I am not the... The

lender, and therefore I am not

taking out a loan, that is, these

three everyday examples, which are

easier to see, show us this great

difficulty in the relationship between

accounting and law and the adjustments

I need to make.

I learned from Professor Amauri and

Professor Alexandre Evaristo that the

accounting process goes through three

phases: the first is the

recognition phase, then the

measurement phase, and finally the evidence phase. That

is, both the accountant and the

lawyer, when they look at a fact,

when they look at something,

they will first

recognize what it is.

Then they will

measure what its size is, and

then they will evidence how

it will be shown,

publicly disclosed, right? But they are

different processes, right? So, in these examples

I gave, how will the process be? From the

lawyer's point of view, he will say the

following: this here... So when I say

recognize, when I recognize, right?

What is the legal nature? He will

say this is a matter,

and then he will say, okay, this minute... The

second step is to measure this matter. He's

going to say that this amount

corresponds to one million reais, right? He's

going to say how I'm going to show this through

a contract,

and the accountant might do it differently, right?

He might say, "No, this

isn't a million reais, this is like

a share you lent for 100

years. You lend for one hundred years, you're not the

author of the shareholder, right?" Substance is worth

more than form, right? And then we're going to get into

an important issue of

accounting law, right? He's going to

mix things up, he's going to say, "No, if

you lent for one million reais

for 100 years, bringing this to the

present value doesn't represent one million reais, it

represents one real." For example, and how is he going to

show this? He's going to show it in the

balance sheet, that is, two different views: the

lawyer's view and the accountant's view,

two different perspectives, therefore

two different views.

And what is the great lesson

we have, and the principle that we

saw today, which entered into

legal matters with a lot of detail

and a lot of discussion, is precisely about

this: look, the accountant will—I'm going to go

down principles—he

will not only obey rules, he will obey

principles, and basically what... He will

obey the principle of substance over

form, right? He won't focus so much on the

content, the legal nature; he won't be

concerned with the

legal nature of the operation; he won't be

so concerned with the formality

of the operation; he will be more attentive to the essence

of the operation. That's why it's said

that accounting prioritizes

substance over form.

And we know that in law,

throughout our tradition,

codified law, the same is true for

Anglo-Saxon law. We also see a

lot of form in codified law, the way in

which legal acts are

formalized, and therefore, that's how

I will understand the respective legal institute.

So this dichotomy

creates differences and makes the

jurist, from now on, with the new

accounting, with the new Law 11638,

which succeeded them, have to

worry precisely about this change in

legislation, that is, where I will see the

substance and I will not see the form,

and basically I will not

prioritize form, I will

prioritize the substance.

Hi, and what we see as

important changes is precisely the

peace established by Law 12.973, which

was published at the end of 2014

and was also in effect for the years

2015/2014. It states that to

calculate income tax, you must use

accounting reasoning. So,

reason based on what

accounting says; you must follow

accounting. It is your

starting point, your origin for seeing any

and all types of consequences.

Therefore, starting from accounting, the

tax law will have to do the

following: if it wants to change this

accounting reality, it will have to

have a tax law... The article discusses how accounting practices can be problematic, suggesting that while

accounting might be flawed,

accounting principles can be misinterpreted. It emphasizes the need for a law to change accounting reality, specifically a tax law. The author then clarifies that the law must be followed. The author then emphasizes the importance of following accounting practices. The author concludes by noting that

when they began

working

in accounting,

they

saw accounting as a

second-class category. The author,

in fact, already cited Decree

1598, which stated that

real profit is part of accounting profit. The author also noted a

significant prejudice from the

legal field towards

accounting, treating it as a

second-class category, despite the prejudice from lawyers and legal professionals.

Actually, it was already important, and it is

today, but it

wasn't seen that way until I became

aware of it when I started

working in

tax law. It was like this: I can't

move forward if I don't know accounting;

I can't evolve my

knowledge if I don't understand

accounting. And so I went to

study accounting sciences. So this

is a reality in our field, right?

We jurists in the legal field

understand that accounting isn't

important; on the contrary, perhaps it's

the origin of everything, the starting point

for understanding tax regulations.

And today this is very clear in Law

12973, right? That's why we had all this

harmonization with Alexandre de Moraes, that's why we had

the need for legislation to

harmonize this and make the

necessary adjustments. But today in the

legal field, what we should have

as a guideline is: Follow the accounting,

and if you don't want to follow it,

create a different tax law

that changes this

accounting reality precisely to comply with

tax regulations. This shows the relevance of

accounting in our daily lives. And another

important point, just to

finish my statement here... I'll

pass the word over to Professor Amauri,

and it's precisely that all this

standardization of accounting norms

came to Brazil, but it's from systems

that taxed income based on what's called the

consolidated balance sheet. What does that mean?

Imagine you had a group of companies, and you saw this

group of companies as a single company.

So everything consolidated, that is, this

convergence system is very well

elaborated and very well

established for countries that tax based on the so-

called consolidated balance sheet. In Brazil,

we don't have that; we tax

individually, company by company. We

don't have consolidated taxation,

and this causes some imperfections

in this attempt at convergence because the

norms that tax the

balance sheet in a consolidated way, and not

individually, create imperfections.

Therefore, some imperfections need to

be better established. Everything I

wanted to show in my presentation here, which is

quick (20 minutes) and respecting the

deadline so as not to delay the

event, is precisely to demonstrate the following:

law and accounting are

related sciences, but they are separate and

should be scientifically analyzed.

Separately, however, the law

draws from accounting standards to

activate and transform them into legal norms. From

this reality,

legal norms will eventually dictate in some

cases that the accounting standard is valid

as a starting point. Today, in our

Income Tax, for example, as

Alexandre mentioned in Law 12973, you must

start with accounting to arrive at the so-

called real profit, with some adjustments that

need to be made. But this shows

this interdependence, this interconnection

between the phenomenon of law and the phenomenon

of accounting. Knowing also that

accounting will greatly favor the

principle of substance over form,

while law traditionally

favors form over substance,

this conflict is

precisely what we have to study. That's why

all

these discussions about the

international convergence of accounting standards exist, which

also generates many possibilities for

study. Unfortunately, it has generated a lot of

litigation, both

administrative and judicial,

which is a bad thing, because in

fact we should have

more

equal interpretations, but unfortunately this

dichotomy causes

important divergences, and we must... Avoiding them, right?

Anyway, Professor Guilherme, Professor

Alexandre, in my regular 20 minutes here,

the idea was to give a

first introduction, a first notion

of the importance of Law in

accounting, and I thank you once again for

the invitation. I am available for

questions, that's all. What

is the audience? Thank you, we

thank you. Professor Queiroga, just to

vary a little, without

spectacularly offending anyone, thank you for

your participation, for your

comments, and this lesson you gave us and

all our audience, without further

ado, is my dear friend,

companion, right, next to you at the university,

one university close to the other, right?

Professor Amauri, sometimes older, but it's a

pleasure to have you here with us, oh

sir, Your Excellency,

this is the first word, to thank you for the

opportunity, which is always an opportunity to be

with Professor Guilherme, right? And whom I

consider here, right? An

exceptional person, I have a line of

reasoning here that pleases me very much.

Our conversations, sometimes we

exchange messages here, giving the

children a bath, giving words, this message

about the other, an idea here about fabric,

right? And Professor Alexandre, whom we had the

pleasure of meeting at a panel, right? And it was

truly a very enjoyable, very

spectacular debate, in one of the

brilliant new minds that we are

bringing to the community. I also

consider myself a middle-aged man,

50 years old. I'm 44, right? We should

live until the end, so Evaristo, the young man

who will succeed a lot and doesn't need to...

look, basically, to go to the

following... he's a person who

values... It

will be a great pleasure to be with

him, talking, exchanging ideas. He's a

kind person, right? And a person whom God will guide. He

has a special eye for

accounting and the brilliant work he has been

developing, right? Along with

accounting, which he has already

graced us with his knowledge on

other occasions, I appreciate this

opportunity and I want to see if I can... I

swear to this group of

brilliant people here to bring some ideas that are a

little simpler, right? Accounting...

Sometimes we are a little conservative, right?

We sometimes... the tone of

conservatism isn't very strong. I

have the opportunity to work here at the

law school in our

applied tax planning discipline, a

more complicated vision. I will work

again next year, right? God

willing, together with this

excellent group from the faculty. "I'm

from Ribeirão Preto, right? I'm going to ask

you to take the liberty of showing

the slides here, not just for your information,

to try and illustrate a little, since

our friend Alexandre Hohl, as

you've already mentioned, has already

prepared the ground for us to

talk a little bit. It's

something I have a lot of interest in, right? In

my training, let me basically

show you our screen. I'm going to

work with a quick example here.

This one is appearing, everyone

is already seeing it, it's

perfect, exactly. So

I'm going to start our presentation

here quickly about... I know I like

accounting. For me, there's

only one accounting. I'll even

open the old one with some concepts.

For me, there's only one account. There's

only the perspective you

want to see. If I want to approach

this accounting from the perspective

of courses and opportunities, I'm at the biggest

advantage. If I had chosen

this way or that way, I could have had this

performance. Accounting gives us

the possibility to change our minds, so

I have an account of the difference. But the

portrait, and photography, can't be

different, right? Photography can, it's

true, right? I can even zoom in,

but photography is always the same, right?"

And I think this partnership with

law is phenomenal. I sometimes feel like

sitting in the chair and doing

law myself. It's

something my colleagues... It's because I

increasingly understand that this

capacity, this ease, this

narrative brought by the spectacular should be

increasingly used here working with

lawyers. I've linked, for example, I

've learned a lot, like a

phenomenal experience working with the

late Professor Bert Sorbet, who

had a great, right? It's a

great pleasure to connect with

him, right? And tribute... I prepared here, I

selected here the slides from one of

my classes, right? I can treat things

very simply because I am also...

complex things, right? My

processing capacity is not human. So it

will only do three of 1824, it doesn't do

24, 1724 times 12 and 24 months 15, it will take me

a while to process a number

of this nature. So let's go to

simpler things, right?

And the groundwork has been laid, so I mean,

Brazilian accounting, as a

quantity of the world, it gives me an

idea, right? And this idea is an idea of

globalization, it's an accounting based

on... Global assumption: Why? Because the

world does business, right? Unfortunately, we

are in something that has been globalized,

and it wasn't our will to return to reality,

right? But I think we will

also learn from these moments, right? We are

here working in various places to

reduce the transaction cost of

information, which is important, right? We

will see, in a certain way, that we can demonstrate that the

productivity level of the public sector

is good, right? And the University of São

Paulo is at 94% of its activities,

showing that we have done three thousand exams, which

will be approximately 400,

right? But without real disbursement.

We all have the means to produce and convey

more information in accounting; it's

there to generate this

group, this standard that has already been well

addressed by Evaristo. So, because we

have a standard, first, reducing the

cost of capital. Imagine a German having to

translate Brazilian accounting

to his standard, and a Brazilian having to translate

German accounting, and a way to exchange resources,

borrow resources, invest in other

capitals. What is profit for a Portuguese person is

n't profit, or a Dane isn't

profit for an Argentinian, crazy, or a

Brazilian, right? So, I hope that's the

concept of profit. We have the

ability, each Ismar is...

Approaching this debate from the legal field, but

increasingly approaching its

essence, which is economics, let's

go back to the concept of wealth. I don't

know what's crazy, crazy is what I can

or can disappear today, considering that my

current situation in relation to

yesterday's assets, I'm doing so well

today when I was consuming

that portion yesterday. So, if I take the

example, I had one million reais in

assets,

a thousand reais in assets, an inflation of

50 reais, and the result of 300 reais, and I

took the assets today, it was one million and

three hundred, minus 50, my assets are

250, what I could get was only

250 because 1 million and fifty is the

maintenance of my same status of

wealth. The concept of profit itself is

very close to economics, and we take

this basis of economics, throwing it into

accounting. We promise more

subjectivity through its use, more

interpretation, it's an accounting in

value, an accounting that will require the

accountant himself not only a view

of historical cost entries and records, but also

the perception of the use of the resource, right,

increasing transparency. Because, as a

professor, a

concurrent drug dealer bought a

historic beach house that was a building. It's

wonderful, but it was overturned, he

lost it,

and he lost its use. He lost the

benefit baskets, giving you, you can't, Caio, you

can't sell it. He basically can't use it, meaning he ca

n't commercialize it. The

value invested gives an accounting of

clothes. We measure the

present and future benefit of this resource. In this

resource, if it's material, it has material. This is

basically an important idea for

us, right? We have to look at

exactly this economic sense that

the elements of an organization have: to

facilitate the generation of information from the

world, to communicate better, to reduce the cost

of capital in the transaction of resources, to

increase transparency, to increase

comparability, and this decreases the

transaction cost. That's the focus, right? And I

hope that Mauricio de Souza doesn't get

upset because he's using

a figure here, right? That I'm upset about.

So, if accounting is

unique, it's pure. It's very much

life, it can be applied to anything,

to the professor's office, to a

good business, a good framework with

assets heard throughout

history, to a company like Vale do Rio Doce.

We can also apply

accounting with the same virtue to

Chico Bento's farms,

because if the concepts are sacred

to us accountants now, right? That's

what guides us. But you apply

accounting to Chico Neto. Do

n't we need to be the one who needs

accounting at that level? That's

another question, but it's applicable there. I

say this:

accounting is like medicine;

too much of it can kill a

company, which doesn't need it anymore. The

right dose can be very useful to the

process. So let's see what

an idea of

accounting would be like. Let's leave Chico

Bento's farm. First thing, we have to

look and ask ourselves: what are the

assets? For example, there's a 25-

hectare farm, a house, a VW Beetle, a

cow, a pig, 350

baskets of corn, 200 points in the piggy

bank, a chicken, an armadillo, and

a jaguar. And he lent it

1000. What do you think?

We only have the resources within the

assets. So now I have to

ask some questions. First,

look, Chico Bento, what do you do when you use

these assets? Are there incomes and

expenses? Does it only have costs and

income with the... Selling eggs,

selling vegetables and fruits, and producing milk—

he cut the hell for the little cow and

consumes corn because, well, and cultivates the

land—we have resources that are consumed in a certain

way, and the

patrimonial resources have a longer consumption cycle,

and quickly we have to start

interpretations. I really liked this

statement from the translator at school. The whole

process, when the figure of

the accountant is now in a

situation, it's not enough to just account for things; you have to

interpret them in light of the concepts and judge,

and responsible judgment—you have a

level of social responsibility—is

very good with you, you've been teaching us

for some years now. This is what we have to have

here: the search for a better,

faithful representation of the facts.

Accounting should take the best

picture of the facts. So, the new

accounting, what does it do for us? It

gives us a more approximate position of

wealth. It doesn't say how much a

business is worth, but it gives a position of the

risks that are embedded in the business

and the potential gains generated by the

use, by the cycle of the first ones. You

have a farm, we can just have

land. The accountant has to have,

and for Mr. Chico Bento, saying the

following: are you going to use the land or

are you happy with the land? It's only for

investment purposes because if the land is

used for real estate development, if the land is

for rent or sale, it's only for real estate

exploitation.

So the underlying concept changes.

When I look at the resource, I don't immediately

say it

's not immobilized anymore; it

depends on how the manager will use

the resource. I have a little cow, and I'll

ask Chico Bento exactly what you're saying. He

said you're going to produce [something]

for resale, for

resale, you understand? The cow

isn't really for production; it's for biological asset production.

So you realize that

we need an

interpretive capacity to apply the

concepts. You lent the

money to Zezé, but for how long?

What's the interest rate? Have you

agreed how this will look on the

balance sheet, based on

future value? How will you

appropriate the interest? Because the interest

will be due over time. So

you have an element of competence, right?

Look, let's move on to a chicken. He has

a girl, he's going to consume the chicken.

God forbid, I never have affection for

that animal. As a pet, it

will produce eggs. Oh, so it changes

nature, this is great, thank you. I

have a little bit, you will consume it

too, right? Or yes, it depends on my

whole resource. I need to

formulate a question about the

managers' intentions regarding the resource.

Because depending on the nature of the asset,

it will have a different treatment. You

have 300 tons of corn for consumption or

sale, because that's it. Because if it's for sale, it

's inventory. I have to evaluate if the

value of the inventory is the net value,

or if it's less

than the replacement cost in the market, you have to

adjust for the drop. In

short, you can look at

its production cost, it will be higher, or it

costs fair value, no, but if it's

inventory, you will have to use a

metric to realize that we gave a certain

way, there is a greater challenge. What are the

metrics or the use of the resources? And he

has 200 bucks, the rest is 18 points

in his piggy bank, what can he do with all

this money? Leave it in working capital,

invest it, or return it to creditors?

Depending on its nature, it can generate

financial revenue. We will apply it to the

legal entity in Brazil, it's a paradise of

tax opportunities, right? I take

this money out. I'm returning the information to the

small Chico Bento person from his PJ, which is

cheaper to come from as an investment. If I

leave it, I can actually have the

taxation there by estimate, and then I

have to offer the taxation

again, and I deduct the

original tax depending on the nature of the

investment, right? Were the products

sold for cash or on credit? That's also

important information because... And then we have a

first point of intersection: if you

sold...

Ah, that means you financed...

from within this revenue... You

have two components: you have a

component that is interest, which is

financial gain from financing someone,

and the operating revenue, let's call it that.

What does

revenue mean? Revenue is AB, it's the exchange, right? And

market valuation, professor in the

cavities, is assets validated by the

market. It's the premium you receive in addition to

the cost, or is the premium just the cost? You go

to the market, take the eggs, if someone gives you

a value for them, that's a premium for the

egg, for the course, for the entire journey

in logistics, so risk, and for your

service of selling the egg, right? And then you

receive a revenue, which has two

components: a financial revenue and an

operating revenue, genuinely. Regarding the

activity, the ICMS (Brazilian state sales tax) comes up, but it doesn't exist,

my friend, revenue, revenue 18 per cent. No,

but you're taxing final revenue.

And then it becomes financial. There's no

legal provision for ICMS taxation. You

couldn't turn it off, the following:

I don't know anything about that. It has to do with

the money that's so close. RTF source

12973, go up account here, called revenue,

revenue. You have a bank, you stop like

Casas Bahia separates. Okay, if

you stop taxing reforms, and without fairness, right?

The same thing happens with

consignment. And I leave the eggs on

consignment at my friend's grocery store,

Chico Bento's friend. He's going to tax the

creams, saying no ICMS taxation on

acrylics leaving the establishment. And I

was at the beginning of the

revenue realization. It didn't happen. I didn't receive

for what he returned. The risk, there

was no transfer of benefit.

The risk goes more to whoever received

the eggs. The risk is Chico Bento's. And

why am I taxing? Because it's

also convenient, right? We have to,

everyone did everything on consignment. And

if we look at the past, the

old triple ICMS is... Regarding the sales tax on

goods, let's consider

the history of ICMS (Brazilian state sales tax). We understand the

logic of ICMS when we

go back to 1942-46. Tell me, let's

remember, when the tax was created, the

actual profit and the presumed profit. We have

interesting criteria that still apply

today. So, let's look at the

history of the facts

to understand why... And then we start

to say why ICMS... putting all the

considerations... this was already a tradition, this

tradition is evolving

rapidly, which takes a lot of time.

So, looking at the general plantations, the

object is that he has the revenue from eggs, milk, and

fruits. Fifty percent of sales

are from equipment, it is estimated that there is a loss within the

received ten percent. The quarter has a

calculation to learn the cost. Basically, it's

the corn that he used for production. To

receive an environmental fine for raising

an armadillo, he shouldn't be

raising these animals. And unfortunately, the

auditor, or the

auditor Chico Berto, passed this expense, otherwise he

will be fired because if I let him

deduct the fine, right? For a

breach of the law, I am

reducing the punishability of the offense, right?

He has stock, he has the corn in

stock, but the price of corn has fallen.

Oh, wait a minute, so if it has fallen, in

fact I won't recover the

market price of the book, it's below what I

paid, so I won't recover it

by selling that corn. Is that what I paid for

that corn, or is it? What do I have to

do? I have to reduce that

difference. So, the inventory criterion is one thing, the

fixed asset criterion is another,

the body or the counter-receivables from

customers on credit is another. So,

property can be cost or it can be

value. Ju, you realize the size of the

challenge that we face in being present, not

putting it well. I have the

biological assets, chickens, cows, the

fixed assets, by chance, a VW Beetle, the farm, right? And

evolving, well, to do

Chico Bento's calculation, I only need these

accounting pronouncements. I don't need to

do it anymore, just with history, I

have to look at the revenue, according to

CPC 47, costs and expenses, and the 300, right,

deferred taxes, because I have

intertemporal gains.

Oh, and accounting has a thing that

follows, huh? Look, to complete the

famous billion of deferred assets, but my

God, what? This means that

the concept is missing semantics, it's something that does

n't know what it means, it's an

intertemporal tax allocation. And for

me, I think that's a problem because the lack of

technical knowledge can lead to the

deduction that the company has

accumulated wealth that it will recover, and

sometimes that wealth will never happen,

you know? Because there can be a difference

between what the tax authorities understand about

revenue and expenses, which is a very real

gain-based view, and

accounting, which works with potential gains and

unrealized gains,

so it will recognize

potential and realized gains, it

will recognize realized losses, the

costs realized by the actual

and potential gains, and it will also recognize

the potential future loss in the estimate

of the sale of Chico Berto. So

accounting gives you a reflection.

And since you have a potential loss, you

have an expense in the future, so this

could be within the tax authorities' view, as the tax authorities say,

no, you haven't lost everything,

I can't reduce it,

and when you lose it, you can deduct it, you will

apply 34 percent of the value

recorded in the deferred asset. But it

may be that these gains and

losses are due to the

existence of... From the business, you will have a

piece of that deferred asset when the

business exists, it will occur, and when

that gain, for example, appreciation of

biological assets, that big

scissors, I did, that will give you

another one, put now, that you also didn't

gain a cash, an availability, there's no

smell of availability, I can't, I

said that, the

company's accounting, I'm going to say the following, there's no, I'll

put it now, only when the cash

actually comes, or is realized. And then I'm going to

calculate 34 percent of the large culture

and I'm going to calculate the deferred income tax liability.

Hey, and then, look, we have a billion in

deferred tax assets, which is what I'm

going to recover from what I overpaid

today because I didn't pay, and the

future tax that I failed to pay because it

wasn't recorded today. And then we look at the

statements, we say that it's more

difficult to understand, both for students,

these allocations, because accounting

is at such a level based on

economic concepts that it's bringing

intertemporal elements that will impact equity.

Our list is giving a position

of wealth. Today I'm poor. Today

he was a joke, and when my

children were born, I went there and bought a thousand

reais for each one. From Rio, from a stock

that ended with x, and I don't know, I

took it out of the financial system, opened it, there goes

João and Maria's assets, R$ 2000, and I

never did anything again. Then, when João and

Maria were 4 years old, I went to evaluate the

assets. Well, the shares were worth 3

cents. If I had made the Sommer mark,

one of the shares of that company x from

Indonesia, right, the gold movie, right? I'll take

here, give the movie of that gold mine

that didn't actually exist in Indonesia.

Here it became very interesting. If I

had marked in the first month, the

second month, when I saw that there really

was a problem, getting out of that, selling

those shares, I could have recovered

my problem. Everything is with longing. It

gives you the possibility of measuring

metrics to measure your

assets and it occurs in real time. It's a

closer accounting; it doesn't leave

you waiting four years to say, "Look,

friend, sorry, the only thing I have

to give is a hug." So this is

an important item for us to think about:

biological asset, fixed investment,

liability, because I made a loan,

adjustment to present value, which is the adjustment

of the loan receivable. I'm

finishing, professor, two more slides

here, I'll already indicate fair value.

Realized value. What is the amount of

concepts applied? It's not

because it's Chico Bento's farm that they

aren't applied,

and the important thing is the domain, the beauty

that this advice, the photography that

this concept allows us to see of the

assets, right? Chico's doctor job

generated madness, when Chico

is richer, when is he poorer? These are the

questions we will answer: the

transactions carried out, increase or

decrease Chico Bento's stock. What are

the differences between temporary ones that will

impact Chico's assets?

So, if we look here, we have

the revenue, the profit result. Chico

has 843 reais of profit, can I take it

home? No, because here it's a matter of the

concept of wealth, not a concept of

availability. Oh, and that's the right thing

we're going to work on together, all

this embedded dynamic, right? This set

of accounting advice is

experiencing what it's learning, we're not

learning in the learning process.

This was implemented in its

definitive form 10, I would say 9 years

ago,

and we are studying it from the nose,

which is a militant, it

should be with us, Professor

Quiroga, who has been following this

process of... 2008, right then. We're

learning every day, we're learning about

conflicts, right? So it's a challenge for

everyone here, just the vision of

fiscal assets. And to finish, Lucas's

fiscal account for Chico Bento is 2,600, the

computer 1,600, the variation between the

two, right? In this case, you must understand that these are

inter-temporary differences, that are the

Losses and Gains, the recognition, right?

Where do you sell these differences? He lost the

number 700, he had a loss in the

receipt from Beira da Praia of 207, they

had 20 more in the chicken's gain, 20 in the cow's gain,

and even 650, there is a

difference, there is a definitive impact from the

environmental fine. Professor, basically,

to finish, accounting will

leave a set of questions. An accountant

can't have a video alone, but

within this, we have the following, in

the stage, a very interesting taxonomy

that says the following: the question to ask is the

question to ask here, right, fiscal:

what is the fiscal situation, what does the

law require, the specific regulation on the

legal perspective on this type? Is it

correct what I'm doing,

and is there a correct presentation of

reality by my... there we actually

have the creditors who... Shareholders

should have two stakeholders interested in the

information: a

direct or indirect shareholder, and a

convertible debenture. You just have to

request the economic effect. What is the

effect on the economy of these operations,

this recognition, and on the

shareholders' wealth position? I am

allowing full disclosure of the

steps. What is the effect on the

stakeholders involved? In terms of

quantity, not just the bank (let me call it the

bank), but the third party, right? And here is the

creditor and the shareholder. We have the

employees. The demonstration of

added value. Few countries, public, that

we serve, for whom it was, serves, for

those who like to pay taxes, right, employee, right?

The behavioral aspect, why did

the administrator choose this aspect? It's

not enough to say that they will wear it, that they will

use cost or fair value; they have to

bring it up

and say why they chose it, right? And

about the structural aspect, the

specific rules for each

specific situation, apps. And then I say the following:

the professor who will put it in

his closing. Economic Essence, about

the way we live. Today it doesn't work,

but today we live in a world of

accounting totally based on a

pillar, the Economic division. We have

few items dealing with the

cost perspective. The historical context brings to

mind when we lose

our anchor, when we lose

our reference point, we can get

lost. We've lost the edge of the

pool; we're in the middle of the pool,

in the middle of the sea. When we lose our

historical course, we can lose

our reference point,

and this is also very important.

So we can't throw away the

information. The accountant is always

an anchor; we don't lack all our

decisions, right? Look, it was

all based on an anchor. We use

certain norms, and we

have to look at these things to do

this accounting correctly. And

accounting has a motto, right? Accounting

contracts. It's just the anchors that

accounting will be appropriate

for us today. The

essential element, Professor, thank you. I don't

want to go on any longer; it was just an

illustrative figure because here we

have to put it to you to bring a

debate. I appreciate the opportunity.

Hello, I'm Amauri, and we are the ones who are very

grateful. It's always a great pleasure.

Hello, you said you'd like to

chat with us on WhatsApp. The day,

like, I sent a message saying you were bathing the

children during these difficult times, right?

So it's very good to

talk to you through your...

Knowledge, through its depth, through

its ideas, we exchange a lot of

very interesting ideas, Amauri, and

I like it very much because it makes someone

from law pose, which is very much a

critique, perhaps our area isn't seeing, it

just hovers, it doesn't land, I'm not

with the reality, and other sciences are the ones that

effectively touch a reality, that's why it

's very, very good, always listening, always

talking with you, Amauri. We're going to

move on to the question phase now, and I

wanted to encourage our audience to ask

questions. We already have one

question here, actually two, it's from Macho, right

Macho, you forgive me, we're in

charge, we're up,

the right time, privilege in the organization,

I'm going to ask a question before the

question, what are the two kilos

placed here by March, for our

next direction to our

speakers? I wanted to ask what is

the first opportunity

I have to talk here with

Professor Alexandre Evaristo, right, and also with

the professors of yours, also to talk

with us, right, Professor Amauri, and we

are always exchanging ideas. I

participated in several events here with

Queiroga, and he knows that I research

small businesses, I think that the tax on

small businesses and Navigating this

research of mine, it's spreading to

other branches. Why doesn't anyone study

small business law? Nobody

studies it, so I said, "That's great, right?" I

started helping with this, conditional cheese bread,

and so on, and then I went on, and

I even have a

small business lab class tomorrow, about securing

financing for small businesses. Tomorrow

I'll go there to see if Judith... But anyway, what

point did I want to make? I wanted to ask the

question, as you rightly said,

Alexandre, look, it's the

accountant's contact. He has to interpret, right? It

appears in the numbers, but these numbers

aren't objective like mathematics; they

are the result of an interpretation process.

So it's presented in various numbers, and

we have it in the legislation, in reality, and I even

remember the professor's article

that talks about the fiction of

real profit, right? If it doesn't have to be

in the title, that's what's really real.

So we're going down this path, in a

cruel way, an extremely complex relationship

to determine real profit, in such a way

that the small business owner can't determine

real profit, and what does that mean? What

we see and asked is that the small or

medium-sized business owner pays income tax on what

they do through the simplified tax regime, or they

do it through the presumed profit regime, whereas...

Large companies often accumulate losses, right?

Because of the cost of compliance.

We analyze the legislation, and what's

interesting

is that the transition between tax regimes should

be smooth, where the

main tax obligation remains.

I think this smoothness,

when moving from the simplified tax regime to the

estimated profit regime,

doesn't change much in value. This is

important; there isn't a drastic step to

avoid, in a way that encourages people

to stay in the previous regime,

often not expanding their

activity or maintaining what

they expanded informally.

But it seems like it's not

working,

and is it only because of the cost

of compliance, the cost of compliance

fostered by tax legislation?

The actual profit regime is something

extremely complex and impossible for

small businesses to apply. So they get

used to doing all their

accounting and ancillary obligations,

starting very simply, and then suddenly

they have to jump to the actual profit

or estimated profit regime, which is more

complicated than the simple one. Is it

because the actual profit isn't really real, because

the accounting isn't really real?

Mate,

or perhaps we couldn't have

accounting and tax standards that

assume this revenue versus

expense paradigm, and instead stop sending

estimates, starting with that... that... that... that

place... I forgot

the name of the Monica's Gang character,

Maurinho... imagine

that... Bento, I think that's his

name, Maury, he's the character...

and I... Chico Bento, Chico Bento... today, more

than 15 Bento... reading that bunch of CPC... I

saw a song... CP... his power... stay with him... he

goes crazy... so... isn't there a way, in the

same way, with the

tax obligation, it increases, there's

a scaling until the subject... it's

the possibility of effectively growing

their activity, but there's no

possibility of accounting and

tax legislation, from the point of

view of the class, also being

gradual? That's the question I posed.

Thank you very much for being here, I

greatly appreciate your participation,

thank you very much,

Guilherme. I'm the one who thanks you for the

invitation, the question is very interesting.

Indeed, Professor Sueli brings up the myth

of real profit, right? Exactly to

raise this question that, however much the

real profit... It's called "real profit," but it's

not real at all. It's a

calculation methodology like any

other, even though it starts with

profit.

I have a comparison between revenues and

expenses; it's not a true profit.

And in the presentation I gave, I

also emphasized that there's no such thing as a

true profit. The thing

we try to get closer to is

a faithful representation, but we'll

never achieve it. And then I even use a

phrase that professors of faith also

like to use, and let's openly say they

should follow it: it's better to be

approximately right than exactly

wrong. Do you want to take a bit of the idea of ​​new

accounting? Old accounting had

quite objective criteria, but you

were exactly wrong. Today there's

more subjectivity. So you'll be

approximately right to the extent

possible, obviously. This point you

brought up, all small businesses, is very

interesting because in fact there isn't a

bypass valve, a

gradual path. So this phenomenon is created that

we even call Peter

Pan syndrome, right?

The company doesn't want to grow because it will

have much more costly taxation and

may even lead to informality,

etc., as you said. In fact,

accounting in Brazil is like that, and it's a

joke. Which is the country that spends the most

hours filling out

ancillary obligations and

instrumental duties? So we have

very high compliance costs, and the

new accounting also has many criteria that

are often not objective, and with

that comes costs. There's a

premise in the basic conceptual framework

that always says that the cost

of having higher

quality information is what matters. You always have to look at the

cost-benefit ratio; if the benefit generated

is less than the cost, it's not worth

doing.

So there's this premise that's

primarily in our accounting, let's see,

and besides that, we also have a

specific accounting standard for

small and medium-sized enterprises, so there's

IFRS PM, which is the CPCPM here, which

is currently under review. It's

in public hearings, it's under

review for anyone interested, and in

fact, it tries to simplify the standards as much as

possible. So it says, look at the

fair value. Only use it when you're in an

active market where you have an

easier time if the cost is too high, so

you can get this measurement basis,

maintain the historical course. So there is,

in a way, a

transitional accounting standard, but the concept of...

PM, whoever is doing the accounting, is

totally different from the concept

we have. A simple one, you know, we

have micro-enterprises and

small businesses that go up to 4

million and eight hundred thousand. The CPC PM is

and does not qualify as a

large company. A large company is defined as one that

invoices more than 300 million per year and

has assets of 240 million. You've already

finished, it goes up to that amount, which is

gigantic, right? But even so, there are

quite interesting

accounting articles that show that although

the CPCPM (Brazilian Accounting Standards Committee) had its initial adoption in

2010, very few companies will adopt it because

in practice there are several problems in the

program. Even

accounting firms

are often not prepared; the computer

learned according to the

old standards, not that this update is necessary. It's

also part of Brazilian culture that

sometimes sees the computer as an

obstacle or a mere filler of

ancillary obligations when in fact

the computer has a very

strategic role, right? Because you can't

manage a company without having a basic understanding

of its results and its balance sheet.

So, commutability

has this issue that it needs to be

valued, and that's partly due to the

computers themselves, which have a

much more important role in the

North American and English markets. But in

fact, there are the costs of implementing FS (Financial Services) and

many courses that are implicit even in the

CPCPM. The education courses,

etc., it's hot, it's not ready

yet, but on the other hand, there's that

issue: we have to wait

to implement an international accounting standard

until we're

prepared, this one will never be

ready, it's like a child, right? Are you

ready? So there's the issue of it being

an international movement of

internationalization, convergence. In the

last decade, it had to be pushed,

we had to do it by force, and we have to get used to it.

Obviously, it will go through

a process, a

cultural dance, I think that's the

main point. It is, in fact, a

cost to buy, this high, even having

CPCPM, and to overcome

this challenge, we will need

cultural changes that will involve

not only accountants, consultants,

businesspeople, but also legal professionals to solve it.

Thank you very much, and I hope that it is up to you,

you know that we have

our Master's student in the audience,

the companions who are researching this

about real profit comparing it with the

legislation of Portugal, I also have

hibiscus, which I put here.

Thiago doesn't

participate here sometimes, he's with us too,

thank you very much. I'm going to ask

Marcio Mix Sushi's question now, I think. What

is this, right? Big hug, two bubbles at once,

those are related to

accounting, seeking

international harmonization, in the search for a standard,

what is the expectation for

international tax harmonization?

Hi, and he continues with another question: in the

context of a globalized world and

digital economy, in the near future,

can we think about

global tax legislation here at the top, in the

digital economy? I wanted to remind you that this

was the theme of our seminar, of our

last webinar, which fit quite well

there, which you

gave me, but it was done here, right? Comparing the

issue of globalization in accounting,

he said, would there be a possibility of

tax globalization? I don't know if

our dear friend, I am Quiroga, could you

touch on this subject a little? Yes, I

can, Guilherme, I can. I

think, well, I think, utopian, imagine an

international tax harmonization, okay? I think the most

we will achieve are these

harmonization mechanisms that came with

IFRS, and with all the defects that

I mentioned, they were

introduced, right? So, with all the

problems, right? As I said, this whole

international accounting system

came to Brazil, even though its origin is

countries that tax the so-called

balance sheet. Consolidated when in reality

we transport individually, which

already creates some imperfections,

so I think it's very difficult in practice to

achieve an

international accounting organization. I think it's utopian, really. To

be quite objective

in my answer, I think we'll never

reach that point; it's just an idea, an

ideal thing. I think we'll

never achieve the objectives. I

think we can reach them at most through

these

standardization methods, as is the case that we

adopted, but always respecting the

sovereignty of each state. Of course,

this can still occur in economic blocs. Let's

imagine I'm in the

European Economic Union. Of course, I can

have an economic bloc standard. But

outside of that, I really don't see that

possibility.

I'll call Mr. Quiroga, the pressure is on,

Amauri, and I'll pass on your

question, okay? It's from Caio

Vieira: in the absence of

specific regulations, do accounting methods and criteria

help or hinder the correct

qualification of

hybrid financial instruments for tax purposes?

And nothing, in fact, we are the taxation... I

'll cite here the work of Jorge

Vieira, our friend, a scholar of

accounting, who works on the figure of

hybrid financial instruments. It doesn't use... it's not... it's

not something peculiar, it's not

something so recurrent either, right? For us to have a

volume of this type of operation,

that's not the cost of this type of

operation, basically, a reserved area...

let's be much more honest, but it

limits more or less, my friend, companies in

Brazil, and I wanted the capacity to invest in a hybrid

nature title, right? The

first difficulty exists on top of the

complexity in the very mind of the duration of this

type because they have a reason to have a...

they have a decision, right? Not

made, because in their... in their curve, they

can decide to redeem the equity value,

right? To become a shareholder, and in a certain

way, we will have to, in a certain way,

seek some technical support in the law, right?

For the valuation of

potential capital gains, right? Because today, in the

issuance of debentures, even when we start, you already

have this... you already have a

tax treatment, but it's a hybrid nature title

that, my friend, isn't

very concerned with the issue of

taxes, right? I think that taxes, in

fact, we are talking about those

courses on income, right? I think that's what

accounting is concerned with

taking a snapshot, and the criteria

are adjusted, but I like to use

a non-pejorative way, but... So, the

quantity is there, photographing and

taking the best picture of this

investment, this debt, this type of

debt. A guy who was patrimonial,

if this portion of "Ciganinha"

realized in its conversion, this large amount is the

same thing as options. A company that

has an offer

for its executives and doesn't have shares on the

stock exchange, right? And it can use a

virtual parameter, right? And at this moment, the

tax authorities themselves are having some

difficulty in dealing with options.

So I see it as a challenge, a

challenge for the tax authorities themselves, but in the adoption

of international standards it became quite

clear, right? And every innovation that

accounting implements in its

accounting pronouncements, at first,

falls under the regime of

neutrality until you come and

standardize, for example, the figure of the

goodwill of the tax office 12973 with its sub-

accounts. You can account for it, but

you will have to show the effect so that it

doesn't go up in the account, right? So I would

say to you that the tax authorities will

always be one step behind accounting, right?

Accounting is trying

to reflect the ingenuity of

the company's financial instruments,

new forms of business,

virtual currencies. Before we... So, let's go to...

Regarding the taxation of

virtual currencies, the same thing happens with money, we've

lost our bearings, we've lost the anchor,

right? The previous question was quite

interesting, you addressed

this very well because we can't

simplify it. And I'm not

going to take this opportunity, but we can't

simplify

Brazilian legislation, right? So I see that one

thing, then, simply put,

presumed profit and actual profit, is difficult. Because

unfortunately, I challenge

anyone in the audience to tell me what

the ancillary obligations are that

a company performs daily in the

presumed profit regime. I also ask

someone here to calculate, for example, the

amount of ice cream leaving São

Paulo and being sent to Mato Grosso, which

shows the complexity of our situation until we

migrate to a simplified model.

Ah, and I'm also a bit of a

topic because I'm speaking a little from

my perspective as a professor. I look, for

example, at accounting, which suffers today from the

devaluation of the profession,

firstly because we haven't invested in the

capital market. We've invested in

savings, leaving 800 million in the

market that we present to

ourselves. I wanted information from the company that

breaks the symmetry, it's accounting, it's the

accountant, he's seen with that money

that orders something to be erased, never to send something

to,

and we naturally create an aversion to

that contact. So this transmission, for

example, of the look, but people do it in the

simplified tax system, it's simple to put a guide, I challenge

you to calculate for a company that

has three activities, two of services,

right? Four and one of commerce, calculate

for me here now, it invoices 100,000, that's what

you need, we can't

look at the tax and say how much I

owe later because, because we made an

option, unfortunately sadly, in Brazil, it's

Tex Tex, a little bit, it's visible,

as they say in law, I believe there

must be more or less, Sarah, we didn't,

we opted for simplicity, right? So it's

difficult to make the transition because we

are crushed, waking up in the middle of the night

with ancillary obligations,

the SPED Fiscal, SPED Contábil, SPED

Contribuições Social, and Financial, Administration

and Accounting, 35% of the time of

an average company is spent doing obligations. In

other words, I must tell you, no

problem for them, I don't want to elaborate on

this aspect, I think that's it.

Accounting, if it's beautiful, is useful, which is what [the author]

put very well, right? It

allows us to look at things from this perspective. So, there are no

good deals without good

accounting, no matter how small a company is.

A company that invoices 30 million

reais and mentioned presumed profit, but I remember,

excuse me, it's 100% of the

product that is imported, or a company, for

example, that I know, family, was 100% of

its product imported,

please, 30 minutes ago.

And then I say the following: what about the effect of the

Euro exchange rate variation causing

too much erosion? How do I pass on the

exchange rate variation to a company under the

presumed profit regime? The market exception, the father, is it

easy? How do I do a head, a pants, a

swap? It's very nice to talk to a

small company that's borrowing from the bank, the

bank doesn't know how to do the chicken.

And that's what you can get to the certainty

that I don't think... I think the

following: the criteria will

improve as the demands will

reach accounting. I think it worked, going back to the

tax authorities, there are many good people,

many competent people working on this,

but I think it doesn't go beyond

many issues, issues related to

agile and its related to

business combinations, issues of options,

financial instruments, there are... A

normative instruction from 2015, right? And it tries

in a certain way, without systematizing this,

so I would look at this... I don't have an

answer for you to look at it, just

get the professor...

and I thank you, but sell it to your

Amauri. By the way, Tiago, who I'm not,

wasn't sending it via WhatsApp, I'm not

Amauri, okay? Calm down, after you

need me, Amauri, to exchange a lot more

ideas, right? Great, the

next question is from Charles, right?

I said Caio, Charles Cioffi. I

think I'll do it for you,

Alexandre, how to get how many

changes in accounting,

constant changes in CPC 61 tax law,

we can live with so many adjustments in the

moon, the growing legal uncertainty,

and this is a very interesting question. Because

in fact we have had many changes

in recent years, there's CPC 47 on revenue, 48

instruments were born, 06 R2 on

leasing. So what was the

decision of our legislator there with

12973? It was for neutrality if there is a

change of criteria with W resulting from

this new accounting standard. So it will be

neutrality, consequently in

New adjustments.

Hi, and that's an interesting question.

The number of adjustments

today is so large that a team from the

Federal Revenue Service, headed by Cláudia

Pimentel, conducted surveys and found that

if you take a company, there

are over 300 possible

adjustments. And then they're proposing a

new real profit method, precisely to

try and move away from this new

accounting system. They're proposing the

creation of a fiscal income statement.

So this is a problem that's

bothering a lot of people, Charles. And then there's

a possible proposal to

change our real profit criteria

with this new real profit method, which will be

based on a fiscal income statement. It's almost like

having a new accounting system,

although it's accounting

this month, you have a statement next to

the income statement,

a

fiscal income statement,

and there are pros and cons. It's a topic that was being

discussed a lot in the past. Cláudia

took this issue to several forums,

but there's still no bill in place.

But with the

pandemic and the somewhat broader reform,

this... The subject ended up

being put on hold a little this year, although

I imagine they are working on it,

but it shows concern about these

accounting changes, right? Because they can

generate this environment of insecurity

given the quantity and number

of adjustments. I think that's

point B. Professor Guilherme,

thank you very much for your Alexandre, you

took it now, and I'm going to pass the next one

to Your Excellency. It's from Douglas, right?

Douglas Dias, it's interesting from an

interdisciplinary perspective and to expand the

reasoning and methodologies of

accounting law, right? Managing to speak accounting law,

if so, in what way? Well,

I'm a fan of

interdisciplinarity. I think that

nowadays it's very difficult to have

full knowledge if you

only worry about understanding the phenomenon

within one science. The fact that I'm a fan

of interdisciplinarity doesn't mean

that I understand that you can mix

things, that is, the

scientific knowledge of one thing is from one area,

you can't mix it with the

scientific knowledge of another, but

you can nourish yourself with this

knowledge from other areas, in the case of what is

called accounting law,

why has it been called that

way? Because since Law 6.404 of

Credit 1598, several Accounting standards

or accounting procedures,

accounting processes, have become legal norms and

consequently have been codified. That's

why we talk about

resistance to accounting law,

and this expression is also heavily

criticized, because it's true that

we start separating everything into boxes

and wanting to study everything as miniatures of

law when in fact law is one thing;

it must be analyzed

systemically and therefore broadly. But just

as a methodological study, in the study of the

idea of ​​having a

didactic knowledge of practice, it can be

interesting to do this study,

right? And I think this

interdisciplinarity that we are

talking about is important precisely so that

you seek, in other sciences,

knowledge that you don't have in the

same one that you are eventually

developing in your work. Now, I don't

think that accounting law will

become a discipline of its own,

didactic autonomy, simply

a way of speaking that has become very

fashionable,

but it's not necessarily

something that will become effective. The

important thing is to know that there are

accounting standards and

accounting procedures that have been codified and have

become legal norms, which is why

they are important and should be

analyzed by... "So, lawyer, in this way

I'm going to call your canoe, it's coming to be born.

We're getting a little bit closer to

the end of our event, trying to stay

within our two-hour schedule, and I

apologize to those I haven't been able to

answer. There are many questions that

appear, very interesting, right? And in such a

way that there are several

interesting ones here. I already mentioned that water in the very

same, you see, Tiago, our

student sent several questions here. Ah, I... I'm

going to pick one here. I don't know if

Alexandre or Amauri would donate a little...

I confess here, in Cruzeiro, ignorance

about his question. Okay, I'll formulate

the question like this: Could someone please

elaborate on the role of FASB (

forget 52) ​​and its adoption as an

international standard?

Amauri or Alexandre would be the jack-of

-all-trades,

and they don't do it today with... I guarantee...

tractorbenz... this subject, right? In

fact, you have two

international institutions, right? One that, in a

way, is more pioneering because of the

crisis of 1930, right? So, in a certain

way, it organized itself in the organization of

accounting standards, right? Because there was a

booming capitalism, right? It's a little bocetinha." It does

n't mean that the rest of the world did