Harrisburg City Planning Commission - 04/02/2025

at approximately

6:37. Uh, commissioners, you received

your February 5th, 2025 meeting minutes.

Are there any changes, deletions,

additions? If not, can I get a motion

for approval?

Is there a second? Second. It's been

moved and second for the approval of the

minutes as they are. All those in favor

state by saying I. I.

Oppose. Abstensions. Motion

carried. Under old business. We have the

preliminary final land development plan

application for 55 South 25th Street.

This is zone institutional.

is followed by James Skinner with the

Commonwealth Charter Academy Charter

School is to demolish is going to

demolish a portion of the existing

school building on site and

redevelopment the property as a school

with a larger building footprint and

expand uh site and access improvements.

Uh so the planning commissioners may

remember uh that um at la at last

month's meeting the planning bureau had

recommended a continuence to discuss

some um various outstanding issues with

the applicants. Uh we did meet uh with

the applicants and with the city

engineer um to address those uh and um

we confirmed um we clarified some of the

uh uncertainty regarding the project. Um

we are treating uh the um proposed use

as a school. So things like the um off

street parking requirements will be

continue are like continuing uh from the

prior uh use as um as a religious

school. Um and because of the nature of

the use uh and the number of employees

that'll be on site uh it does not

trigger the requirement for a um traffic

impact study.

Um, in addition, uh, the applicants have

addressed, uh, the primary, um, comments

from the, uh, planning bureau and from

the city engineers office, uh, regarding

the relocation of the, uh, entry

driveway, um, to be across from Barry

Hill Street, uh, to which creates a

four-way intersection there at 25th and

Berry Hill Street, which clarifies uh,

turning movements um, for both vehicles

and pedestrians. Um and the applicants

have also um provided a sidewalk along

the frontage with South 21th Fifth

Street as well as a um pedestrian

walkway uh into the entrance of the

building. Uh so from a um site layout

perspective uh and a site configuration

perspective uh the plan the applicants

have uh addressed all the issues from

the planning bureau's um perspective.

Now the other aspect we did ask them to

do was to go out and engage the

community. uh they have done that um and

the documentation of that outreach uh

and the petition of support the

applicants had uh has been provided uh

in your packets. Um so from the planning

bureau's perspective

uh we are changing our um position on

the application from one of continuence

of course to uh a recommendation of

approval based on the changes made by

the applicant uh and the outreach

they've done to the community. Um beyond

that uh the applicants uh may want to

provide a little bit more background uh

on what was discussed at the community

meeting and about some of the changes uh

that have been made on site. Um so at

this point I'll hand it off to them.

Thank

you. Could you state your names u uh

relationships to the project and your

address? Sure. My name is Mayor Patel.

I'm with Laughofner Patel Developers. We

are the owner's representative for

Commonwealth Charter Academy and my

street address is

4045 Thicket Lane, Harrisburg 17110.

Matt Plant with Arm Group, civil

engineer on the project. It's 4600 Lena

Drive, Mechanicsburg.

Hi, I'm Bill Sarah. I'm uh the architect

and representing Sigma 7. We're the

architects and engineers for the

project. here at 10 East 42nd Street in

New York City. Okay. You gentlemen heard

the uh staff report. Um did you want to

add anything to that? And also during

your community meeting, could you bring

us up to date on that? Sure. Um Mr.

Knight was right in that when we left

last time, we had two outstanding

issues. One was the meeting with the

engineer and Mr. Knight. We accomplished

that and we've reworked the plan to

comply with their requirements. The

second was the community engagement. We

went doortodoor to every property that's

contiguous to the school and met with

I'd say out of about 30 homes, we talked

to 20 families and they all supported

the project. We laid out what we were

going to do. We showed them a rendering

and a site plan. Asked them if they had

questions. Um had some fantastic

discussions. Everybody's really engaged,

really excited about um the the progress

in the building being renovated and they

signed a supporting petition to that as

well.

Any

other at this time? I have no questions.

I'm going to turn it over to the

commissioners if they have any concerns

or questions and I'll start with

Commissioner. No, the only question I

would have had involved the community

outreach and it sounds like you did a a

very decent job with that. So, I'm glad

to hear it. That's all I have. Thank

you, sir. Commissioner Reed, I have no

questions. Commissioner,

I don't have any questions for the

applicant. You know, based on the

additional information they provided,

uh, it's very thorough. Looks like

they've done a great job addressing some

of the concerns or things we talked

about the last meeting. I have a

question for staff. Um based on the

revisions that have been presented to

us, some of the additional information,

there were a number of conditions that

were up for

wouldn't we be ch get removing some of

those conditions at this point and

revising our what we'd be voting on? Um

well, yes. Uh but I would say that the

applicants have revised the site plan to

meet the conditions uh of the planning

bureau's um prior case report. As noted,

uh the first condition was a traffic

impact study that is not required given

um but that shouldn't be a condition to

be No, it would be a recommendation of

approval um from our perspective because

they've revised the site plan to include

the conditions of our previous review.

Um

so we would be recommending that the

request be approved as submitted.

Okay. I don't have any other questions.

Commissioner, if you're and I had the

same question. If if if we could get a

clean letter that removes those

requirements and then adds the one that

we had to do a meeting staff, which we

did, that might if if it's something

that's necessary for the next step.

Yeah. So, I didn't rewrite the case

report, just a bit of a time crunch. Uh

had I done that, I would have just

recommended um approval, a straight

approval without conditions again

because the applicant had uh revised the

site plan to address those conditions.

Um, again, the relocating uh the the

driveway uh to create a four-way stop uh

four-way stop with um South 25th Street

and Berry Hill. Um having a sidewalk

along the frontage uh with 25th Street,

having the pedestrian walkway into the

site. Uh reducing the height of the

fences from 8t as proposed to 6 feet uh

which they agreed to do. And um then the

uh community engagement um so the

applicants have done it. Had they

presented that to us from the start, we

would not have had those conditions uh

or recommendations on the plan. So we so

it is our recommendation that the

project as submitted be approved without

conditions. Okay. Because those have

already been incorporated into the

revised design. Okay. Yeah. I just I

think it just should just be clear for

when it gets to city council. So still

so when city council reviews it, they

know, you know, they don't need to be

paying attention to like, oh no, they

didn't do XY, you know, they didn't do a

traffic study. you know, when they're

asking questions that would be no longer

pertinent, right, to the Okay, sounds

good. Thank you, Commissioner.

No questions.

Commissioners, there's no other concerns

or questions. Can I get a motion? Uh,

just a heads up. Yeah. before going for

a vote public.

Oh,

um if there's anyone from the public for

against this project, please stand and

state your name and address. I'll start

with the

center. I'll go to my

right. Concerns there issues. Can I get

approval?

I get a motion.

I'll move to approve.

Is there a second?

It's been moved and a second for

approval of the project. All those in

favor state by saying I

I motion carry. Good luck. Thank you,

commissioners. Thank you.

Okay, the next item on the agenda under

new

business is this the varants application

for 236 North 2nd Street is the zone

commercial neighborhood followed by

Twines Productions

LLC and second and Pine Ventures LLC is

established a nightclub and or dance

hall east on site request relief from

the applicable specific criteria.

Yep. Sorry about that. Um and uh just

want to make a note that the next two

applications are by the uh same

applicant and uh for uh the same general

proposal and requiring the same relief.

the application um for 20 236 North

Second Street. Uh the applicants

proposing to establish a nightclub and

or dance hall use proposal require ZHB

approval of two variances. One to allow

for the proposed use per section

7-305.7 of the zoning code and one for

relief from the specific criteria in

section

7-309.2 DD1 of the zoning code which

requires that such uses not be permitted

within 500 ft of any dwelling unit. Uh

this is an after the fact application.

Uh the property at 236 North Second

Street is a 08 acre lot featuring a

three-story

10,428 foot structure which was

constructed 1948. Property is bounded by

Pine Street to the north, North Second

Street to the east, a property at 234

North Second Street to the south, and

the property at 127 Pine Street to the

west. This attached structure features

elements of a mid-century architectural

style. Character defining features

include the brick facade, substantial

entrance featuring a recessed entryway

flanked by floor to ceiling storefront

windows, a prominent metal awning above

the first floor that supports colorful

uplighting, prominent band of windows on

the front and side elevations, the

substantial three-story metal fires

escape over the sidewalk on the side

elevation and the decorative artistic

sunburst light fixture on the roof. The

main entrance features a divided light

divided light wooden doors with metal

accents set in a simple metal frame and

topped with infill panels featuring a

large sconce is recessed and flanked by

large metal windows. A second entrance

on the front elevation features three

full view metal doors topped with a

large plate glass transom and an infill

panel. Entrances on the first, second,

and third floors of the side elevation

feature solid metal double doors

accessed by the fire escape.

Fenistration on the second and third

floors primarily features ribbons of two

over two steel hopper windows set within

concrete frames. Those on the side

elevation are spaced with portions of

brick facade. Structures topped with a

flat metal roof featuring the

affforementioned artistic sunburst

lighting feature. Though the property

differs marketkedly from other buildings

in downtown generally and on the same

block specifically, this differentiation

reflects the architectural and economic

diversity of downtown Harrisburg and

contributes to the vitality and texture

of the streetscape. Thus, the property

contribute significantly to the

architectural and historic character of

the community. Uh, planning bureau

staff recommends that the request be

approved with the following conditions.

Prior to the zoning hearing board

meeting, the applicant must host a

community engagement session with

residents within 500 ft to discuss the

proposal, answer questions, and solicit

support. Uh, prior to the zoning hearing

board meeting, the applicant should

provide documentation regarding any

proposed sound proof proofing measures

uh planned for the building.

Plane Bureau staff recommends the

request be approved for the following

reasons. Although the nightclub or dance

hall use requested by the applicant has

been operating on site for several years

as determined through review has not

been operating on site for several years

as determined through review of all

resources available to the planning

bureau. Such used to previously operate

on site under multiple different

businesses establishing a history of

such use that's of course its

reestablishment. As the applicant notes,

the building in which the proposed use

will be reestablished is of sturdy

concrete and brick mason construction

which provides natural soundproofing and

features an open floor plan that

supports a music venue. Finally, with

respect to the relief from the specific

criteria regarding proximity to the

nearby residential units, the planning

bureau notes that the existing

regulation would effectively preclude

the establishment of nightclub or dance

hall uses anywhere in the city,

including in the downtown center zoning

district in which the use is permitted

by right. uh and to expand a little bit

about the history of this proposed use

um because I know in the application the

applicants um uh have asserted that the

that the use has been operating on site

for several decades. uh when looking at

uh uses uh or issues such as this where

you're looking at uh reestablishing a a

non-conforming use. Um we refer to

section

7-321.7 of the zoning code that uh

discusses abandonment of non-conforming

uses. And if there has been an

abandonment for 12 consecutive months,

uh then to reestablish that use, you

would need to bring it into conformance

with the existing zoning regulations.

Um, in looking through the history of

this property, uh, we looked at various

city records and specifically

uh, spoke with the tax and enforcement

officer for the city, uh, as they are

the ones that maintain, uh, both

merkantile licenses that would describe,

uh, what businesses were operating on

site, but more specifically, um, are in

charge of the city's amusement tax, uh,

which is paid for live music events. Um,

so it can often be difficult to, you

know, say exactly when a use or a

particular aspect of a use stopped

within a building. Um, but in this case,

uh, in speaking with our tax and

enforcement officer, uh, he confirmed

that since, uh, the comedy club that was

previously operating on site closed in

2014, uh, there had been no amusement

tax paid um, on for the property uh, up

until 2023. uh 2023 was when the

applicants uh began uh occupying the

site and and operating uh their

business. Um and at that time, the

beginning of 2023, I had worked with uh

the applicant to bring this very zoning

relief application through the process.

Uh and in fact, the applicant had

submitted the variance. Um and it was

scheduled to be on the March 2023

agendas. Um but at that in February of

2023 uh the applicant uh reached out and

indicated that they were looking to

establish uh the restaurant and bar

aspects of their business first and then

would come back and uh submit the zoning

relief to establish the live music um

aspect. Uh and after that happened uh

after the withdrawal in which case we

had some communication back and forth

where I confirmed that that was uh how

they wanted to approach it and they

concurred. uh there just have not been a

follow-up application submitted. Um so

that seeks to provide a little bit of

background um on this property

specifically and on the uh proposed use

which has been operating for the last uh

couple years. Um so I just wanted to

make that clear. I'm not sure if it was

entirely clear um in the uh case report

that that was the history of the

property and that is also why we

determined that the variance

applications were needed to reestablish

uh the nightclub or dance hall use that

had pre previously been operating uh on

site.

Thank you. Jeff, could you state your

names, addresses, and relationship to

the project?

Um yes, my name is Eric Hume. I'm an

attorney with the law firm of Saxon and

Stump and I'm here on behalf of the

applicants.

Justin Browning. I'm the owner and

operating manager for the property 4620

Kuster Drive, Harrisburg.

Thank you. Uh Craig Dunl. Um I'm

Justin's partner and owner in the

establishment and my address is 1370

East Lisburn Road, Mechanics.

Okay. You gentlemen heard the staff

report with the conditions. Are you

acceptable of those conditions?

Yes. Um in fact I can tell the uh the

commission that um my clients already

started a lot of the work that was

already referencing been substantial

communications with all the neighbors um

including the neighbor immediately uh

several of the neighbors in the area.

There's been sound testing verify that

the sound proofing is

is and

Okay.

Um, even though I know where that

building is, is there any

um people living above the nightclub?

No. Okay. You know, one of the things to

point out too, just to give you an idea

on the soundproofing, this is something

I had asked my client about. If you look

at the property from Second Street, you

know, you have the windows on the second

and third stories. Um but those windows

there's actually um there's drywall and

soundproofing sounding

but there is no one there's nobody

living there.

Okay. Um, commissioners, the only

question I have at this point and I'd

like to know if you guys have any

concerns or questions and I'll start

with Commissioner McKenzie.

Uh, yes. Um, as one of the residents

within 500 ft of the building, um, I've

looked at the decline of Restaurant Row

in two different ways. one. Um, I've

missed the prostitutes in my back

parking lot, the having to tow vehicles

out so I can get in and out of my

property, cleaning up vomit on Saturday

and Sunday morning. And I'm not saying

it was at your club, but it was we went

through a lot of years of hell in that

location. So, I guess the question,

first question I would have is

um, what are the hours of operation in

defining a dance club versus a or

anything else. Will you be carrying a

liquor license on this? Yeah, we've been

operating, excuse me. Yes, we've been

operating for the last several years.

So, this will be expansion of that. No,

the current liquor license or everything

is in place. So, this is

Okay. I missed I missed that. I missed

that point. I mean, I know you've been

in there and we It's been good to see

it. And that building was designed

originally in Arthur Murray's dance

studio, which is why it was so well

built back in the

day. The um one thing I would I would

note is that there was some use on the

upper floors, but the lower floors until

2003 were were a hardware store because

that's when I bought the ladders, which

I now have installed. They had the

rolling ladder. I remember when that

when that went in.

Um the one question I have since the

city decided to retract providing any

police protection downtown to any of the

restaurants, even off even your own pay

um type things. What's the plan now? So,

we've had uh and we've always had

security in place for the property. Um

we've been operating the last few

weekends um post the um St. Patrick's

Day event and uh we haven't had any

issues. We also have other

establishments on the west shore where

you know have almost zero, right? But

you may have more cooperation from the

police and the city government relative

to providing security, you know, late in

the evening in the west shore. For this

particular property, we operate with 15

security staff. 15. 15. Wow. We also

have two other properties on Second

Street uh that have additional security.

The police detail was something that the

police asked us to provide or to pay

for. Uh it wasn't something that we

necessarily asked for. It was that was

started by Kamyanka Entertainment Group

through running Sawyers and Bourbon

Street, right? So, it was carried on

from his say regime. Um, but with them

not being there, it seems to honestly be

less agitation for the people

outside. Um, I say we do a fairly

spectacular job keeping things calm and

happy and pleasant inside.

What goes on behind the

We we've submitted some ideas to the

city, but that would be another thing to

address. And and that's more of a

question, not directed at you folks. No,

no, it's directed for the record and the

fact that we're on video tonight and

that our city has decided to turn its

back on the downtown and the rebirth of

that stretch and the fact that you guys

are paying for 15 security, it's great,

but as you say, it goes beyond the

sidewalk into the issues we dealt with

for years. And uh I would not want to

see the downtown come back to life

without that support from the city again

because it was miserable. Uh you know

we've been residents there for 20 23

years. So we've lived through the good

times and lived through the bad times

and picked up the bullet casings at you

know at 3 in the morning in the in River

Alley and it was pretty rough uh for a

long time. So, um, like I say, if this

is the continuation of what you have

been doing, I haven't, you guys have not

been a problem, but I just wasn't sure

if this was a change to something

different because we had some a couple

years ago, we had a group that kept

coming through to do dance clubs that

were going to be open till 6 in the

morning and avoid liquor licenses by

memberships and some really crazy things

downtown, uh, which ultimately created a

lot of problems. I just want to be sure

this isn't that and it isn't. So, I've

been operating another establishment

down there for we just did nine years.

It's called JB Loved Drafts and so I've

been there through good times. Thank

you.

Uh but for the particular thing that

we're talking about now, this is

continued use. The next thing is a

change.

Okay, that's my question. Thank you,

Commissioner. Yeah, my question is

Jeffrey, the second uh condition is that

prior to the zoning hearing board

meeting, the applicant should provide

documentation regarding any proposed

soundproof measures planned for the

building. So that's not requiring them

to do any soundproofing. No, I think

they've referenced uh in their

application that they're going to have

soundproofing and discuss like the

soundproofing characteristics of the

building. Uh it's as much uh for for our

record in case somebody wants to ask in

the future as it is for even um a future

such use that may occur elsewhere of

like well what does soundproofing look

like if the applicants are doing

something like that already? Uh it's

something that we could provide to to

future um uh business owners who may be

looking to do something similar. And

especially if it's effective

soundproofing, we'd like to make sure

that that's um you know uh continued

elsewhere um whether that's downtown or

wherever.

Yeah, I'm not so concerned about the

236. I'm more concerned about that with

two 234 because I know there's apartment

building or apartments on the other side

of the wall there. So, I guess the

question would be more more appropriate

then. So, you're talking about the

Benmar there or whatever they're calling

it. No, I'm talking about Second Street.

It would be Zambies above Zambies. Okay.

Yeah, we did a sound test. We did a

sound. We'll get to it, but we did a

sound test. Okay.

Okay. Yes. So I had no further

questions.

Commissioner, I have none.

Commissioner,

no. I don't I don't have any questions

on this one. I think it's pretty

straightforward actually.

Commission Jordan. No questions. Is

there anyone from the public for this

project? I'll start in the

middle. I'll go to my

right. Come to the microphone. State

your name and address. Sure. Uh, thank

you. Ed Ed Jer J A R O C 1521 North

Second Street, Apartment One in Midtown.

I just want to stand and uh ask you guys

support this. I now understand that this

is really already in place. I thought

this was maybe a change, but uh I have

no relationship with applicant. I just

want to thank you for investing in the

city. Um I think like Commissioner

McKisik has said, downtown is in a jam

right now and I think anything we can

make the planning or whatever process

applicable to gentleman like yourself

who's invested millions I'm sure. So for

those reasons I ask that you will

support this. Thank you. Thank you.

Could you come do you have a come to the

microphone state your name and address?

So Frederick Huner 101 South 2nd Street

apartment number 807 in Harrisburg.

I've been patronizing Justin's

establishment for several years now and

I completely support what he is doing

even if it doesn't

100% comply with the zoning ordinance. I

even supported when he tried to move the

live music at JB Loved Drafts to the

second floor. So, I support him on this

project and I support him on the project

at 234 North Second

Street. And I also implore for the city

to amend the zoning map to make those

blocks of North Second Street part of

the the downtown center zoning district.

And I also started a petition online to

get to encourage the city to reinstate

the police patrols that they recently

stopped doing. So if anyone is

listening, I encourage you to go on to

change.org and sign the petition.

Is there anyone else?

Hello, I'm Mark Santana. Um, I live at

on the 200 block of Liberty Street. I

moved downtown um around 2000. I was

moved down here when I was 24. I'm now

48, so I've lived half my life in the

city of Harrisburg. I moved down here

originally because I was working for the

attorney general's office. I got tired

of paying the parking rates. So, I said,

if I'm paying $150 to park in the

garage, I might as well just get a place

down here. And so, I bought my house on

Liberty Street. And when I worked for

the attorney general's office, that was

around 2000. That was the beginning of

the Reed era of the restaurant row. At

that time, the gazebo room was a boarded

up building. Justin's uh place where

JB's is at was the Catholic shop. There

was nothing going on downtown. It was

Stocks and Scots and Dewys and uh the

Pep Grill were the only spots to go. So

I mean I really enjoyed whatever Steve

Reed had done to develop the e economy

of Second Street and man for about 10

years it was really booming. was really

happening. And I think when we had to

sell to get out from underneath the

incinerator 2013, SP parking came in and

crushed happy hour. And then when the

Commonwealth closed in 2020, that

crushed lunch. The only thing left is

dinner. And I think there's just

Harrisburg is I like to call it um

economic absolescence because it's just

the economy kind of has destroyed what

it's no fault of any business owner.

They didn't create the pandemic. They

were doing a good job and you know they

had the state workers that were create

having lunch happy hour. All that's

pretty dead. Um, I understand that, you

know, the the zoning code is what the

zoning code is, but I think we really

need to do what we can to try to help

the business owners that we have left.

It's a miracle that the people that have

are down here are able to hang on. Mr.

Browning is going to uh invest 2 million

additional dollars. He's moving a

business from the Carile Pike uh to

downtown Harrisburg, which is kind of

the reverse of what most people are

doing right now. And I think that's an

honorable thing. He's pretty much put

his whole life at risk to support

downtown Harrisburg. He's, as Ron Campa

is sort of retiring, he's kind of

stepping in into his shoes. I think he

has big plans to work with Harristown

Development and the Downtown Improvement

District with Todd Vanderwood to try to

be, you know, a stakeholder. And, you

know, if you guys would permit his use,

uh, I believe that his rising tide would

raise all the boats down here. he has

ideas for a marketing campaign. And I

also, not only am I a downtown resident,

but I also worked for the city of

Harrisburg. I was a budget manager for

2007, 2008, 2009. Um, when Linda

Thompson came into office, me and a

bunch of other people retired at that

time. Um, so I mean, I've been walking

the second street for a good uh 10 to 15

years. I saw the restaurant row go up

and down. I know Mr. Browning is trying

to do what he's calling uh downtown

reboot. Reboot. Is that correct?

Restaurant. Uh what is it again?

Restaurant. Restaurant row reboot is his

marketing campaign. And uh not only am I

a downtown resident, but I'm also the

president of Capillary Neighbors. Our

jurisdiction goes from Forester Street

to Walnut Street, third to uh to front.

So we our group constitutes all 500 feet

of the what the zoning would have to the

the zoning requirement for the

neighbors. Um and I kind of was caught

by surprise with this meeting. So and

our next capillary neighbors meeting

isn't until May 14th. So I did we didn't

get a take our chance to get a unanimous

vote on this but I put out uh the

proposal that I had that Mr. Knight had

created. out to our board um and asked

anyone if they had any I told them that

we couldn't have a vote, but I asked if

anyone was in opposition of it. Everyone

was kind of excited about the project,

excited that we were going to have a

chance to have entertainment uh that was

going to be live like and he's taken

over the diner. He's planning on um

doing entertainment there as well. So, I

think it's really a chance for us to

support someone who is taking a risk in

a time when it's a scary time to take a

risk. Um and I Mr. Browning had reached

out to me about gathering community

support for his project and I told him

that we'll help to facilitate some kind

of meeting where we can invite our

neighborhood group to come out and meet

with him. He can tell everyone of his

plans and try to quell any concerns any

might anyone might have. So um asking

you guys please to support his both of

his proposals. Okay. Thank you. Is there

anyone

else

commissioners? I get a motion.

Uh yeah, the public engagement and

providing proof of sound proofing.

I'll make a motion to approve with the

two conditions. Is there a second? A

second. It's been moved and second for

approval of this project with the two

conditions. All those in favor state by

saying I

oppose abstensions. Motion carried. Good

luck.

I just wonder why not. We can just

change seats if you want.

The same. It's the same. use um same

relief from the zoning code just for the

neighboring property at 234. So

I spent a lot of time writing these

property descriptions. So um so the

applicant for uh for 234 North Second

Street, the applicant is proposing to

establish a nightclub and dance hall

use. The proposal requires ZHB approval

of two variances. One to allow for the

proposed use per section 7-305.7 of the

zoning code and one for relief from the

specific criterion section

7-309.2 DD1 of the zoning code which

requires that such uses not be permitted

within 500 ft of any dwelling unit. Uh

the property at 234 North Second Street

is a.16 acre lot featuring a two-story

5780 foot structure which was

constructed 1968. Although the

applicant's documentation indicates that

was a date of substantial reconstruction

and the original date of construction

was 1917. Properties bounded by the

property at 236 North Second Street to

the north, North Second Street to the

east, the property at 226 North Second

Street to the south, and the properties

at 218 North Second Street and 127 Pine

Street to the west. This attached

structure features elements of a

mid-century architectural style.

Character defining features include the

brick facade separated into six bays by

large concrete pillisters, the concrete

ornamentation in five of the six bays,

the prominent metal awning running the

full width of the building, the large

illuminated sign featuring the name and

logo of the former restaurant in the

center of the facade, and the wide

concrete cornis with first federal

savings and loan association carved into

it above the three northernmost bays.

Main entrance features a full view metal

double doors within a simple FL frame

flanked

by sidelights which are all topped with

plate glass transoms. There are two

similar sets of doors at the southern

end of the building although neither

feature sidelights. Administration

otherwise is limited to five plate glass

windows on the second floor with

concrete sills and spled brick headers.

Structure is topped with a flat rubber

roof. Front of the building features a

wide sidewalk, most of which is enclosed

for outdoor seating by a fence

permanently anchored into the concrete.

Although the property differs

marketkedly from other buildings in

downtown generally and on the same block

specifically, this differentiation

reflects the architectural and economic

diversity of downtown Harrisburg and

contributes to the vitality and texture

of the streetscape. Thus, the property

contributes significantly to the

architectural and historic character of

the

community. The planning bureau staff

recommends our request be approved with

the following conditions. Prior to the

zoning hearing board meeting, the

applicant must host a community

engagement session with residents within

500 feet to discuss the proposal, answer

questions, and solicit support. Uh,

prior to the zoning hearing board

hearing board meeting, the applicant

should provide documentation regarding

any proposed soundproofing measures

planned for the building. And finally,

the applicant must remove the permanent

fence and closing the seating area in

front of the building. I note that was

kind of like a long-standing issue we'd

had with the previous previous use. um

you know during the winter when snow

gets piled up it really constricts

things and especially at times of

greater pedestrian traffic it can really

create issues. Um so uh removing those

uh would open up the sidewalk uh the

full width of the sidewalk um for

pedestrians. Um the planning bureau

staff request recommends the request be

approved for the following reasons.

Although the nightclub or dance hall use

requested by the applicant has not been

operating on site for at least several

years as determined through review of

all

resources available to the planning

bureau. Such use did previously operate

on site under multiple different

businesses, establishing a history of

such use that supports its

reestablishment. As the applicant notes,

the building in which the proposed use

will be reestablished is of sturdy

concrete and brick masonry construction

which provides natural soundproofing and

features an open floor plan that

supports a music venue. Finally, with

respect to to the relief from the

specific criteria regarding proximity to

the nearby residential units, Blame

Bureau notes that the existing

regulation would effectively preclude

the establishment of nightclub or dance

hall uses anywhere in the city,

including the downtown center zoning

district in which the use is permitted

by right. Um, and again to provide a

little bit of background, uh this is

similar uh to the previous case uh in

which um there had been a history of

music uh uh music live music uh on this

site. Again, in speaking with the tax

and enforcement office, um they

confirmed that um around 2013 or so, uh

was when the live music kind of uh went

away at this particular site. Um I

forget the I think it was by club

beforehand. Um when it was uh Dragonfly,

I want to say at this location. Um yeah,

and I and then it was Fed Live uh after

that. Uh but it was only really um

operating as fed live with live music I

think till 2014. I research I like

Googled both of those um uses read

through a bunch of entries and that was

basically what I could piece together

from what I was able to research there.

Uh our tax enforcement office um uh

confirmed that that was the rough

timeline. Uh they did say they had

engaged with um the owner of the former

business on site and uh they said that

they were giving the proceeds from some

of the music to um Central Pen Food Bank

at the time and he did check with the

food bank and they confirmed that they

were getting um uh checks from that

owner. Uh but they did keep on top of

this stuff over the years. Um, again,

they're making sure the amusement tax is

being collected. And right about early

2019 in January, they made a notation in

our system of basically they hadn't seen

any events for a long time. And so they

were deactivating the the amusement tax

for this property. Um, so similarly, we

consider the uh nightclub or dance hall

use abandoned as of about January uh

2019. And so it's been about six years

now to where they're reestablishing it.

Um and so you know kind of the same

considerations um and issues are

inherent in this particular project as

with the former one. Okay. Thank you

Jeff. Uh gentlemen you heard the report.

Uh are you acceptable of the three

conditions?

Yes. All the conditions are acceptable.

Okay. Did you want to add anything to

the report? Um the one point I did want

to mention and um you know Mr. Dunle had

mentioned this a little bit earlier.

There's already been some sound testing.

Um they I believe it was 100 decel sound

that 103 dB were played inside this

building and they were in the stairway

at the Zendes property right next door

and there was no sound transmission

whatsoever.

This this was with Angelo um Mr. O

believe you spoke with him previously.

He had some initial concerns as he is

the only neighbor that is connected to

the building besides us on the other

side. um with Justin Hershey who's one

of our expert witnesses who can stand

and go through his report quickly just

for everybody on the board. Um in

addition to um us doing the sound test

that is prior to installing our uh total

soundproofing measures that we're

planning on implementing for the

building. Um he want to first make sure

that he's got glasses hung up on the bar

side. You don't want them rattling. Um

when we put the uh sound to the max

level um he walked over, asked his

bartender if he heard a sound. He said,

"I don't hear anything." So he was very

excited about that. And then we were

walking up the stairwell where the walls

uh connect and um we couldn't hear

anything in in the stairwell to the

units. The residential units so happened

to be on the other side uh of the

stairwell. The only uh unit which butts

up against to wall that could be a

dwelling. It's uh currently his office.

When we walked into his office, it was

dead silent. Uh when we were in there,

you put your ear up against the wall.

You could excuse me. You could hear

small amount of sound, but he said like

that's nothing that even bothers me.

You're having a conversation, you can't

hear it. And that is prior to our

substantial soundproven package that

we're putting putting in um which we

have

[Music]

for you.

Yeah, this is our expert. to just state

your name and address and your

relationship to the project. Uh my name

is Justin Hershey uh 17 East Coover

Street Mechanicsburg, PA. I am the owner

of Hershey AV Solutions. I am an audio

and acoustical engineer. I'm involved in

this project as with uh several here in

Harrisburg including XLE Appalachian

Brewing Company and Temple Bethl uh in

Midtown. Uh we have come in and done an

acoustical analysis of the room uh of

both floors as they exist. Now we

created actually a sound pressure level

of 105 dB awaited in the room of the

full audible spectrum uh to which was

not transmitted to the neighboring

building. However, we are still

continuing with our plans of treatment

of 640 square ft of treatment behind

where the live ax will play as well as

an additional 180 square ft of treatment

that extends to 12 inches for bass

frequencies along the bottom of the

stage. Uh, so we are looking at a 80%

reduction in the energy we will be

creating the live music as well as

limiting how loud the bands are allowed

to be inside. I was also involved in

Dragonfly when it was open and we were

achieving much greater sound levels with

Dragonfly than anyone accepts anymore

these days. I did meet with Angelo. I'm

not going to attempt to say his last

name, although I tried my best with

Creek next door. Uh we did a sound test

with him as well and uh he informed us

that he wasn't hearing anything at all,

let alone over where the residences

actually are. Uh will be involved in

this project from beginning to

conclusion as well as when the operation

happens by staffing it with engineers

that will control the acoustic levels

inside the building. We are also

addressing the glass in the front with

transitional movable acoustic treatment

that can be positioned in front of the

windows for times of events and move

remotely when there are not events so

that you can continue to see inside the

building to continue with the uh the

appearance it has now with see-through

glass.

Okay. Thank

you. Um with that commissioners, um I

have no questions. I think this is

pretty straightforward.

But I'll start with Commissioner

McKenzie.

Uh yeah, again I do remember when it was

open and operational and and and that

and the saving absorption sounds a

little light for the amount of sound I

remember in there many years ago, but I

will defer to your experience because

people need to be able to not have

physical pain, you know. So that's where

you go with it.

And one of the things when we were in

architecture school many years ago is uh

just and I'm sure you're looking at the

flammability on the sound absorption.

You know that has been many nightclub

fires. Throw that as well. So uh the

treatment we're using has a flade and

spread index of five at the most and a

smoke develop index of five. Uh all the

rest of the treatment has a AFB

uh UL723 compliant with a flame spread

index of zero and a smoke development

index of zero. Uh no banners are allowed

to be hung by bands unless they are

inherently flame resistant. No, no

fireworks either, right? Oh, absolutely

not. You know the one I'm talking about.

Terrible, terrible thing. Yeah.

But, uh, the one thing I do, even though

I generally support this, I do have a

problem with how the application's been

written, um, because it does appear to

indicate that a variance is is worthy

because of HARB

restrictions. I find that hard. I hate

to have that in the record. I would want

to make sure that that's somehow made

part of our motion that we are not

accepting that ARB is a valid u

rationale for not maintaining uh you

know for not receiving a variance.

That's that's that's the the the ground

base of what we're trying to do with the

city is you know maintain our historic

heritage. Yes, of course. Uh just to

full disclosure, I uh created the first

submission myself. Uh submitted it, got

feedback um from Mr. Knight. That's why

my attorney's with me and we actually

submitted a relication.

Okay.

Oh, okay. I'm looking at the one you

sent me. Yeah. because I have likewise

have the issue with um you know using

financial um you know financial is not a

standing ground at least in my book and

I think in our past history and I think

legally uh to create a variance you know

on a on a building you know financial

hardship the building could be

redeveloped finances are not supposed to

be part of the decision making geometry

location a number of other items are

certain

valid but properties shape

and and just to be clear um the planning

bureau was not referencing harb as a as

a justification this was in the write up

I understand I want to make that clear

yeah but this was contained within the

application and I I that's just not

something that we want to be seeing come

in here as a basis for variances correct

and and with respect to the the economic

um aspect I know that's largely been a

position that this board has held as

well as the zoning hearing board But I

do know some of the um legal counsel for

previous applicants before the zoning

hearing board have referenced uh

previous legal cases in the state. Uh I

frankly don't know where that threshold

is myself, but I know that uh economic

hardship does exist as a justification

for zoning relief. Um so I just wanted

to kind of make a notation of that that

there is a justification at some point

uh when it hits that. So Right.

Okay, that's

all commission. Uh, yes. Yeah. Uh,

Angela's fine with this. So am I. So,

and I I I do commend you for being so

conscious of my friends at Zumbies.

Commissioner, I have no questions.

Commissioner Merrick,

I don't have any questions. I uh just

appreciate that, you know, once Federal

house closed down. Another business

owner, you know, so willfully decided to

step in and pick that up because, you

know, downtown certainly needs to stay

uh vibrant and uh hopefully economically

positive. So, appreciate. Thank you,

Commissioner Jordan. No questions. Just

making a statement. Uh appreciate the

fact that you've already been proactive

with the soundproofing and sounds like

it's very thorough process already.

I can tell.

Is there anyone from the public who are

against this project? Start in my

middle. State your name and I

guess Frederick

Hudzer. I'm at 101 South Second Street

in Harrisburg.

I want to reiterate the that the the

comments I made last time I came up to

the microphone that I am totally in

support of Justin's projects and his

attempt

to bring back restaurant

row and I am called upon the city to not

only approve both

variances but I implore the city

to bring back the police presence that

clearly worked several years. I frequent

restaurant row and I've never once

became a victim of crime thanks to the

police. And I have also called upon the

city to change the boundary line between

the the commercial neighborhood and the

downtown center zoning district to a to

go up a few blocks to include the

buildings that have been traditionally

like club use.

Thank you.

Is there anyone else in the

middle to my

right? Okay,

commissioners Ed 1521 street apartment

one. Just want to reiterate uh support

of the project down here. I appreciate

all the investment you guys are making

as a We've got to get this downtown

jumping again so we can get people

coming back to the city and for economic

reasons etc. And uh so for that I just

ask the board please approve whatever

relief the applicant is asking for and

thank you for your time. Thank you. Is

there anyone else?

Hi I'm Mark Santana. I live on the 200

block Liberty Street and um for the sake

of re of being redundant, I would like

to repeat everything that I had said

previously. Um and with the addition of

not only am I a tax accountant and a

real estate agent, but I'm also a

musician and and part-time and I've

worked with Mr. Hershey in the past,

he's has a man of higher integrity and a

high expertise. I've anytime I've ever

played in in a festival or a project

that he's been involved in, I've always

been happy to know that he's there and I

know that his work is going to be good

and strong. He's always treated people

with respect. Um I've never heard anyone

say anything bad about him and as far as

the musician community is concerned.

He's a A-listister, you know, everyone

is always happy that he's involved and

and I'm happy to know that he's part of

this project. I didn't know that until

today. And I know my neighbors are happy

that Mr. Browning is taking a proactive

approach. You guys aren't asking him to

do this. He came to you and said he was

doing this as part of uh just keeping

the noise down and uh being respectful

of the neighbors and part of my group,

the Capital Area Neighbors. So, we

appreciate that from the applicant and

we ask that you guys uh give him a

relief. Thank you. Thank

you. Is there anyone else to

Okay, with that,

um, basically I agree with everyone was

said about this, uh, club coming to town

or redoing it. U, the main thing that

stands out for me is that not only the

owner is doing it, but he's doing it the

correct way. He's not just coming in

here and giving us a plan.

cracking the

sound resistance and other things that

we've asked of. So that's very

important. So I'm very much for this

project. But with that, commissioners,

could I get a motion?

Joe, just uh one comment. I would be

prepared to make a motion, but I would

just want to ask the commission members

if we can uh stipulate in the

description somehow the caveat that we

did not use the HARB district's

existence as a basis for granting a HARB

or a variance uh for a project. So,

we're looking at the pre-existing use

and and the continuation, but not that

that can't be a

precedent. We want what we've dealt with

over the years that we want to see. And

if you're agreeable, I would make a

motion uh to approve uh

with that notation somehow included to

make sure the zoning hearing board sees

it. It's on the record. I would put that

as a condition as opposed to a reason

for however you

know that best you think that's best

handled.

That's my motion. The conditions as

noted plus that is a additional caveat.

Second. It's been moved and second for

approval of this project with four

commissions. All those in favor state by

saying I.

I carried. Good luck. Thank you. Thank

you.

Yep.

Um item number three, this is a special

exception application with 165 through

1613 Market Street. This uh zone

residential medium density is followed

by Chris Franklin with handles helping

hands foundation is to construct a

multif family dwelling use onsite and

request relief from the associated off

street parking requirements.

Mr. Chair, I announce let you know right

now I'll be recusing myself in this

matter. That's a client of mine. And I

ask you not to hold that against him.

Well, now that you've shown them that

um John, yeah, so uh the next two um

applications are related to the same

project. Uh this is the zoning relief

aspect of the project and the um next

application will be uh the lot

consolidation and land development plan

aspect. Uh so the applicant is proposing

to construct a multif family dwelling

use with associated site and access

improvements. The proposal requires ZHB

approval of special exceptions for the

proposed use per section 7-305.7 of the

zoning code and for relief from the off

streetet parking requirements in section

7-327.6 of the zoning code. Uh the

project site is comprised of five vacant

parcels totaling 0.15 acres owned by the

Harrisburg Redevelopment Authority which

previously accommodated a small

community garden with raised planter

beds although now features ruted barren

ground that was used for vehicular

storage. Debris from the former

community space, general accumulation of

litter and some mature trees along the

southern property line. Project site is

bounded by Market Street to the north,

the property at 1615 Market Street to

the east, a narrow Grocerer's alley to

the south, and the property at603 Market

Street to the west.

The planning bureau staff recommends the

request be approved with the following

conditions. Uh the applicant will

receive approval of the lot

consolidation and land development plan

submitted concurrently with the zoning

relief application and any departmental

recommendations and or conditions of

approval applied to that review.

Uh, the planning bureau recommends the

applicant consider coordination with the

owner of 1513 Market Street, a

non-conforming lot which was approved

for accessory parking as part of an

unrelated project and features a variety

of violations that require correction.

And to um expand on that a little bit,

uh, so that was the parking lot at the

corner of 16th and Market on the south

side. Uh, that was related to the Shalom

House reuse of the Unitarian Church at

1510 Market Street. Um and as part of

that, the uh zoning hearing board

required um them to uh bring that lot

into conformance with the zoning code.

It it had kind of like deteriorated

asphalt on it and uh no real access

control. Uh it was paved at some point

um subsequent to that. Uh but they

didn't uh bring the lot into conformance

putting up landscape screening requiring

the access from 16th Street. So right

now people are basically just driving

over the sidewalk at the corner there.

Um, I did add that condition of approval

uh before I um noted that the applicants

had provided a letter from the church

right next door at 1501 Market Street,

which also has its own accessory lot on

site uh to provide parking. So, um, you

know, while we are supportive of the

request for full relief from the five

parking spaces, um, if the applicants

are able to provide parking at either

lot, uh, we would be, you know, happy

and that would, um, I'm sure address

some of the concerns of the neighbors as

well. Uh so, you know, we would still

like to see 1513 brought into

conformance and we'd maybe hope that it

could be done in coordination with the

applicant here, but if they're able to

have the uh provide any parking at 1501

Market Street, that would be fine as

well. Uh so, planning bureau staff

recommends the request be approved for

the following reasons. The project

conforms to the goals, objectives, and

action items in the comprehensive plan

by constructing a compatible infield

development featuring affordable units

and a vacant site along a priority

corridor in the city. project site is

located in a mixeduse corridor with

nearby residential, commercial and

institutional uses and thus the proposed

use should not have an adverse impact on

the neighborhood. The project is

designed to reflect the use, masking and

configuration of the properties along

the block specifically and in the

surrounding neighborhood generally.

Approval of the proposal will enhance

the character of the neighborhood and

improve the streetscape of the corridor

by developing long-standing vacant lots

with a new inflow development and

associated site improvements providing

affordable housing and demand throughout

the city. And finally, the proposed

development will add new residents to

the neighborhood to activate the street

on nights and weekends and grow a

customer base to support local

businesses.

Thank you, Jeff. Could you gentlemen

state your names, address, and

relationship to the project?

Zane Gist, uh, civil engineer for the

applicant. We're at, uh, 430 North Front

Street, Wormleyburg.

Oh, sorry.

Jamie and Harley on Development,

Charlotte, North Carolina.

Okay. Um, both you gentlemen heard the

staff report with the conditions. Are

you acceptable of those conditions?

Yes. Yes. Um, do you want to add

anything to the report or

nothing really to add? Just looking

again to Foundation wants to bring more

affordable housing to the community.

make more impact.

Okay. Um I have no questions at this

time, but I'll go to the commissioners

with any of their concerns, questions,

and we'll start with Commissioner

McKenzie.

Yeah, I'm on the roll tonight, but no, I

support the project. Um uh I wanted to

speak out and reasons to support it. Uh

what we're dealing with here is a

missing tooth in the community. And when

you're dealing with a lot of

restrictions, you know, to be

rebuilding, bringing that back. And that

really reminds me a lot of the guess it

was Saskahana Sesina housing

initiatives. We did the project on the

south side of Market Street many, many

years ago, probably 25 years ago. And we

gave I think at that time gave a full

variance on parking at that site. And it

was a little bit bigger, but similar uh

in terms of its effective in filling the

gap there. And it's realistically what

was there. Uh it's I struggle as as as

Jeff does. Uh but there's really no

feasible way to generate a curb cut off

of Market Street there. Milk Alley can't

even get a bicycle down it uh from the

back. Uh so I think you have a unique

situation that doesn't necessarily

extend itself into other requests for

waiverss that we see in here. I just

wanted to have that on the record that

if we do approve this uh that that would

be my thinking anyhow. Thank

you, Commissioner Green. I have nothing

at this time.

Commissioner, I would echo

Commissioner's comments. I don't have

any questions for this specific part of

the application.

Commissioner Jordan, no questions. Just

wanted to

make a possible intent for that.

We'll go to the

public one for against the project.

Start with the

center.

Commissioners have

no questions or concerns with this

project. Can I get a motion?

Motion to approve the conditions. Is

there a second? Second. Second.

Second for approval of

projects. All those in favor state by

saying

I luck

why are

they Noah's arc here. Everything's in

today.

Okay. This is um item

number four. This is the they this is

the preliminary final light

consolidation of LDP application for

1605 through 1613 Market Street which is

own residential medium density followed

by Chris Franklin that handles helping

multif family dwellings on site.

Uh this is to consolidate sorry the

subject properties and construct a new 9

unit multif family building on site

along with associated site and excess

improvements. Uh so again this uh is the

land development aspect of this project.

Um so the request is for the same the um

construction of a 9-unit multif family

dwelling and associated site access

improvements. property description um is

the same and uh the planning bureau

staff recommends the request be approved

with the following conditions. Uh the

applicant is required to receive a

certificate of qualification pursuant to

chapter 12101 of title 12 affordable

housing certification prior to recording

the lot consolidation and land

development plan with the Dolphin County

Recorder of Deeds. Um and that is

because the applicant is uh taking

advantage of the um affordable housing

bonus uh provided um through that

affordable housing program. Uh the

applicant should coordinate with the

city engineers office on the

installation of bike racks in the public

rightway. The bureau would recommend

that such parking be located near the

main entrance and sheltered if possible

and that the applicant consider a more

useful design than the wave rack shown

in the plan set. Um those tend to be

difficult to get up to. um just a

vertical post with a circle on it uh is

a very low impact one that is uh pretty

effective at locking up bikes to it. Um

prior to introduction of city council uh

the applicant will provide a formal

phototric plan to confirm consistency

with the environmental performance

standards in chapter

7-331 of the zoning code. Uh the

applicant must also provide information

on the economic impact of the proposed

development prior to city council

review. Uh that section just wasn't

filled out on the application. Uh and

then finally, the applicant should

consider a vertically differentiated

facade treatment and materials that

reflect the architectural elements of

the surrounding neighborhood and the

inclusion of of a substantial cornis at

top the third floor to reflect the front

facads of surrounding buildings. And the

planning commission may recall that we

had a similar

um condition for the uh recent approval

of a similar project at 1260 to 1270

Market Street. And again, the vertical

uh differentiation um would make the

larger building appear as three or as um

the row home buildings that are

consistent throughout the neighborhood

there. And then having that corners to

top it would be similar. Uh the planning

bureau staff request recommends the

request be approved for the following

reasons. Approval of the proposal will

enhance the character of the

neighborhood and improve the streetscape

of the corridor by developing prominent

and long-standing vacant lots,

constructing compatible info

development, and adding to the

neighborhood's housing inventory. The

proposed project will contribute to the

city's need for affordable housing by

providing nine new affordable housing

units in two and three-bedroom

configurations, which will be certified

and maintained long-term as affordable

units. The proposed configurations

represent a size of unit that is in

higher demand throughout the city.

Finally, the project will enhance one of

the primary corridors in the Allison

Hill neighborhood, adding new residents

to the neighborhood, activating the

street and community on nights and

weekends, and contributing to a growing

customer base to support local

businesses.

Thank you, Jeff. Gentlemen, you heard

the staff report with the conditions.

Are you acceptable those conditions?

Um, I have no question. Again, this is

straightforward.

Commissioner

on a roll tonight, but I just I just

want

to indicate support for Jeff's condition

relative to a little more massing

studies on that to make it a little more

reflective of that particular

neighborhood. One of the things that the

s series of images you gave us with your

prior application was it really brought

home uh what a wonderful porch

neighborhood that is and the

delineations that are available there.

And I understand cost money, but there

may be some other coloration or texture

that can be done to just bring a little

bit harmony. We're not here to design it

for you. I mean, that's you guys will do

what makes sense, but I think that was I

think that was a good good addition to

your report conditions.

Commissioner, no questions. Commissioner

Merrick. Yeah, thank you. I do have a

couple questions. Um, I didn't see

anything from Capital Region Water yet.

I'm sure they will provide more of a

review this. So, on the back side of the

property, there's a small patio area. It

looks like there's no fencing proposed

around that patio area, is there? Uh,

that's a that's a good point. Um,

because then you have a storm water bas.

Yeah. I I'll have to look at the the um

what if there's a requirement on like

you know the certain drop from for a

storm water base I know four feet's

typically standard so I don't think

there would be any u balms about putting

up a small you know a fence in order to

help protect any potential hazards from

that in the backyard but

it's a it's a basically like a like a

small like a rain garden basin that that

does have should have infiltration from

what we understand from the geotech

investigation it then yeah it has an

overflow structure too in case the water

gets you know too high.

Okay. Yeah. I and we'll see you know

what CRW comments but I do have a just a

general concern about the the patio the

size of it and then having that grading

and rain garden butdding up so close to

where people might be sitting. Okay. Um

right there you might want some fencing

or even landscaping barrier. I didn't I

didn't see is there a landscaping plan

planting plan for the storm water basin

for that area retention basin there

there's uh well on the grading or I'm

sorry the site site plan shows all the

proposed landscaping there's nothing

specific to the basin itself proposed it

would be like a basin seed you know mix

at the bottom and then a typical uh like

a steep slope mixture or um something

stabilizing the the side slopes of the

basin

Sometimes depending on who's maintaining

the property, it ends up just becoming

grass and that becomes ineffective for

really any retention. Um, and

then it becomes a challenge, a landscape

challenge, I'll say, for property. Um,

unless there's some intentional, you

know, typical plantings you might see in

that area like cattails, um, you know,

wet shrubbery, like things like that

that could go in there. Um, I just

didn't see any indication on the plans

of what what would be going in there to

help just help facilitate the the runoff

and

drainage. Um, the only other question I

had too was so looking at the existing

photos

there is or there was a community garden

there. Is that something that's active

on the site? Um yeah, I tried to figure

that out too. Um you look back on it

through Google Streets View and there

it's clear that in previous years there

was more attention paid to the site. Um,

I wouldn't be surprised if, you know,

COVID maybe interrupted whatever

consistent attention uh people were

paying attention. Maybe people that

lived in the neighborhood that took care

of it moved uh as a result of that. Um,

and or and I mean these are H owned

properties, so maybe there wasn't an

agreement re re-upted with HR or

something. It's unclear as to exactly

what type of activity. It didn't from my

visit to the site, it didn't look like

there was a lot of current activity on

site uh or previous maybe in in last

year. Um so it it's tough to tell. Okay.

Yeah. I was just if it were active, you

know, right? If there was any sort of

community commentary or or public, you

know, one way or the other like, hey,

you're getting rid of our garden, you

know, and and there was no engagement.

Yeah, we we definitely went through the

community with the petition also. Um we

we definitely have a

kind of handling that community, working

in it, um talking with the church, but

we we also went around position and got

name signed. No one's piping up. So, I

don't think Yeah. might not be a All

right. Not at this point anyway. Right.

Right. Okay. Don't want to be, you know,

stealing people's tomatoes, carrots this

summer. All right. I don't have any

other questions. Thanks,

Commissioner Jordan. No questions.

One thing I was going to say is despite

the possible confusion about

whether anyone from the public for the

project and I'll start with

middle commissioners can I get a motion

I'll make a motion to approve

conditions. Is there a second? Second.

It's been moved. A second for approval

of the project with conditions. All

those in favor state by saying I

opposed

one. Motion carried.

Thank you.

Uh we're on item number five.

Um this is a zoning map amendment

application for 261 North Third Street.

This is a zone INS. by Gregley

Allipquist with Penmark Harrisburg

Holdings LLC is to change the parcel

zoning destination to the downtown

center.

Y uh so the applicant uh is seeking an

amendment to the official zoning map in

order to change the parcel's designation

from the institutional zone to the town

downtown center zone. Uh the property at

2601 North Thirdrd Street is a 6.36 acre

lot featuring a sprawling medical campus

including a

216,444T facility which was constructed

1926 and an

83,876qt facility which was constructed

in 1957.

Property is bounded by Wikiniscoco

Street and the property at 2645 North

Thirdrd Street to the north, North

Fourth Street to the east, Poly Clinic

Avenue to the south, and 2645 North

Thirdrd Street to the west. This

property features a sprawling

institutional campus with three to

sixtory buildings that previously

accommodated the Poly Clinic Hospital.

Character defining features include the

primarily brick facads of the various

buildings, the building arcade along the

northern elevation of three pen center,

the substantial ornate front entrance to

one pen center, the consistent

fenestration patterns, concrete bands

throughout the various facades, the

secondstory skybridge connecting the

main building to the property to the

south, and the large smoke stack with

attached plant featuring a full wall of

windows along North Fourth Street. There

are entrances in a variety of designs

and sizes throughout the campus.

Penistration also includes a multitude

of windows in materials, sizes, shapes,

and configurations. Windows of two and

three pen center primarily feature

divided light wooden windows, whereas

those of one pen center are largely

plate glass windows. Structures exhibit

two types of roofs. One and two pen

center feature flat rubber roofs, while

three pen center features gabled roofs

clad and asphalt shingles with evenly

spaced dormers. The property primarily

features a well-maintained grass yard

with decorative plantings around the

base of the building and a narrow

concrete walkway to the front entrance.

All of which is enclosed by a 4ft high

chain link fence around the front, rear,

and side yards. Landscaping on site is

primarily located along the western

frontages of the campus buildings,

although there are pockets of

landscaping along both North Four Street

and Wickedco Street as well. property

differs marketkedly from the surrounding

built environment, even from other

institutional buildings such as the

Steel School, the Scottish Wright

Temple, and the Zimbo Shrine, which

feature more ornate architectural

elements. While it does not necessarily

contribute to the character of the

streetscape and neighborhood, its

significant presence does establish an

architectural and historic character in

its own right. Uh, the planning bureau

staff recommends the request be approved

with the following conditions. Uh the

applicant will not be granted approval

to reszone the property's downtown

center, but will be granted approval for

reszoning to commercial neighborhood. Uh

the proposed downtown center zoning

district is not appropriate for the

subject property given the significant

distance to downtown Harrisburg and any

other DCz zoned property and given the

significant deviation in use and

development allowances between that

district and the surrounding

neighborhoods. The commercial

neighborhood designation is most

appropriate for the surrounding

community given that the purpose of the

district is to encourage and preserve

corridors with a mix of medium and

highdensity residential and neighborhood

retail activities and to encourage

pedestrian oriented uses and because

there are existing CN zone properties

along North Third Street just to the

west. Uh the commercial neighborhood

designation supported by the planning

bureau will provide the applicant with

most of the same flexibility to develop

the site as expressed in documentation

submitted for the proposal allowing uses

such as the multif family dwellings,

retail stores, grocery stores,

restaurants, and offices while retaining

minimal minimal regulatory oversight of

aspects such as residential density. Uh

and if the commissioners uh would note

the um table that was provided in the

packets uh the the um use designations

which are permitted uh in the downtown

center district and not permitted by

right in the Cen district are the ones

that are highlighted. Um and then the

reasonzoning of the property is

necessary to affectuate the

redevelopment of the property in a

manner that is both most likely and most

beneficial to the surrounding

neighborhood.

Thank you Jeff. Gentlemen, could you

state your names, addresses, and

relationship to the project? Yeah. Oh,

you go first.

Uh, I'm Dean Cafiro. I'm principal with

Penmark. Um, I live at 720 North Spring

Mill Road in Villanova, Pennsylvania.

Uh, my family's been a real estate

investors uh in Pennsylvania for 51

years. And we go all the way from uh

western Pennsylvania to the to actually

New Jersey uh but mostly the

Philadelphia area and and Lancaster

area.

I'm Gregory Hawquist. I'm with Penmark

Harrisburg Holdings. My address is 1831

Foothill Drive in Huntington Valley, PA.

Are the two gentlemen behind the part of

your Yes. State their name and address?

Sure. John Anderson, uh, civil engineer

for the project, um, 213 West Main

Street, Lance LP, PA.

I'm Benedict Dubs from 1600 North Second

Street here in Harrisburg. Okay. Uh you

all heard the staff report and with the

conditions, are you acceptable of those

conditions? Uh no, we we're still we

still as we're we appreciate um you

granting these conditions, but we're

still asking for uh the downtown zone.

Um the downtown zone gives us um a lot

more uh gives us things like if we

wanted to do a hotel in the future,

there's going to be areas of the space

of this building that's very old that

we're not able to use that we may be

able to create self storage. Um

everything we do is going to be on a

high-end um finishes and nothing to do

with changing the look of of the

property. properties, you know, has a

very unique look as we stated. Uh, and

we didn't want to change the look of the

neighborhood also, but we do need the

downtown zone in order to proceed with

our project.

Jeff,

um, well, I think the the planning

bureau's position um is is we're

maintaining the same position. Uh,

again, we've noted some of the uh

differentiation between the CN district

and the DC district here in the chart.

It's pretty minimal. Uh things like

dormatory, auction house, we're not

expecting any of those types of things.

Um a college or university, uh

commercial, recreational, and

entertainment facility, which we don't

even have a definition really for in the

zoning code. So, it's uh kind of a weird

thing. Laundromats, uh it's, you know,

the the hotel that they did, uh

reference. I would note that uh in the

CN district that is a special exception.

So the burden of um justification on the

applicants should they want to pursue

that in the future uh would be lesser

but it would still require them to come

through the zoning code. Um and then

things like photo processing centers

which uh I don't expect anybody to to to

do. So um you know while we do

understand uh the significant uh

obstacles that um are present in

redeveloping a property not only of this

size but of this um specific use uh and

the need to uh create as liberal a

development framework around that as

possible to allow that to happen. Um,

again, our comments about the distance

from the downtown center, the downtown

center district, uh, in the zoning code

is really, you know, intentionally

placed in downtown and then east along,

uh, Market Street, um, and other

downtown expansion areas. Um, and it

really wouldn't make sense to, uh, plop

a downtown center in the midst of Uptown

Harrisburg, just nominally really. Uh

but given the character of the

neighborhood which is largely row homes

and duplexes uh in the surrounding

blocks um you know the planning bureau

feels that the commercial neighborhood

gives the applicants the flexibility uh

to do what they feel is necessary

without uh you know cart blanch to um

never come back before the zoning code

uh or before the uh the planning

commission or the zoning hearing board.

Um, you know, theoretically, uh, the

applicant, there is no density

regulation in the DC district. So, the

applicant could put a 10,000 units in

there if they really felt like 10,000

efficiency units if they thought that

that made the most, you know, money for

that particular reuse of the building.

And again, while we definitely support

making redevelopment of this site

easier, something like that is probably

something that I think the city and the

community would want to have a a say in

uh when it ended up happening. Um and

again, we do feel that um comparing the

two districts, uh most of the types of

uses that they've said that they are

looking to put in here, uh would be

permitted by right in the sand district.

uh and um other uses that you know may

evolve as time goes on uh are allowable

in the CN district as well such as like

indoor recreation or something like

that. Uh I'd also note that the CN

district and the DC district uh have the

same off street parking requirements

which is none. Um, and while that may

normally be an issue for a redevelopment

of this size in a neighborhood like

this, the applicants do note that they

have 446 spaces available both on this

site um, and in the garage at the corner

of uh, Fourth and Schoolill Street. Uh,

and there are surface parking lots just

to the north uh, at the Scottish Right

Temple and across the street from the

Scottish Right Temple. So, um, you know,

we feel that uh, the CN district is

appropriate for the neighborhood and

still gives the

uh the flexibility that they would need

in the future, however they decide to go

with redevelopment of the sites.

Uh if the districts are so

um unifferent uh and I I appreciate um

the comments um but if the if the

districts are are so similar, why can't

we just have the downtown district? Um,

we spent we bought this property out of

bankruptcy. Uh, we spent a lot of time

uh, we've lost uh the state leases uh

that that have rented the office space

there. Uh, we're trying to create

additional uh, value there.

And um it's hard to do it without having

I I don't want to say cart blanch, but

when we were making an investment of

this size in a place like Harrisburg, in

a place

that could be this could be the next

vacant um building that's a huge blight

in Harrisburg if we don't redevelop it.

So, we're asking we're going to make a

massive investment. We're asking for a

very minor thing to give us the downtown

district. Um the things that um that

Jeffrey just uh just stated are not are

not that different. And um again, the

investment we're making, the time we're

putting in coming in front of, you know,

of these boards is very expensive. I

mean, what what we're dealing with here,

you know, the previous

um the previous the the the nightclub I

don't know what they spent on on

professionals to be here for something

that you guys wanted and it sounded like

it sounded like the whole city wants

that. Um I think that you're going to

find that um the project that we're

we're proposing is going to be a first

class project and I think one of the

larger housing developments that would

be here uh in in Harrisburg. understand

we just had 29 houses that were just

approved or just finished, but for then

I mean our our comparables are showing

uh what's it called? The sugar house

glass factory um as as one of the

um as one of the last places that that

was potentially fixed up or redeveloped

as a as a fairly larger um apartment

complex. And and from what we see, it's

not It's it's old and and I don't I

wouldn't want to say it's it's I don't

know if anybody lives there. Sorry. But

uh it's not um maybe it was first class

at one time, but it's not anymore. And

um that's the the closest comparable we

can come up with uh when we're figuring

out how to price uh our apartments for

rent and what to build, what size uh and

and uh and the finishes that that we're

going to uh put inside the units.

Anyhow, we have other plans to do a bar,

a restaurant bar, brewery, that kind of

thing. Bar is a bad a bad word, but like

a brewery where in the old incinerator

area. Um there's there's plenty of

spaces in this building that are going

to be hard uh to get to. Um in other

words, we can't put an apartment um in a

basement uh with no windows. And there's

plenty of spaces like that in this

building that we need to figure out how

to use. So the downtown district

certainly gives us the flexibility to

figure those things out more than the

other district.

Okay, we'll move along here.

Um, usually I'm the person who gets on

if you have enough parking spaces.

But I however I'm very familiar with the

building.

Um before I retired four or five years

ago, I used to be the executive director

of the workforce development agency. We

housed our folks in that building, one

of those buildings which was about I

guess we have about 40 people and then

also at the same time the state was in

there. So we didn't any problems with

parking because there's a lot of parking

spaces there. So, that was one thing I

didn't have to question on that. So,

that might come up later, but I know

there's a lot of parking. So, I I just

want to point out um the the staff that

we have with us that were with the

building for the last I don't know 10

years or so. Um we've we've been they've

been and and us as well have been

plowing the the the Scottish right um

parking lot um you know with with the

intention that that people in our

building could park there if it was more

convenient and we we've done that for

years. I think we we wanted we keep that

relationship going. Yeah, I I totally

agree because I was also going to say

whenever we had a big conference there

or something and we had any extra

parking spaces. We had an agreement with

the status right and the Zumbbo that we

could park there during the day and use

that. So I was going to say recommend to

you to use them but you seem to know

that we we have a relationship with

them. I mean it's not a written

relationship but it could be it could be

going forward. Yeah. Yeah. I agree. Uh

with that I'm going to let the

commissioners ask any questions and have

any concerns. with Commissioner KY.

I have no problem with the reasonzoning

from institutional to another more

lenient use on that parcel. I certainly

don't. And for those of you, I guess the

four of us who were here as we fought

through the uh comprehensive plan for

many

years, this if you recall, this is one

of those areas of the city that was

indicated as a as a as a threat. Um, you

know, we've all I've been involved

trying to figure out, you know, the the

William Penn, which I'm still not sure

is not going to be demolished. Um, you

know, we worked on getting Zimbo Mosque

on the on the National Register and

worked with several Live Nation and

other people had to use that building

over time. Uh, and have have seen this

building, you know, and watched in fact

many moons ago uh was involved in doing

the addition just before they closed for

the new uh entrance to the hospital. We

built it, it got done, and 18 months

later, I think it closed. So, um, and I

hope it wasn't the addition to put them

out of business. Um, but we've watched

it and and uh but the struggle uh that I

have is trying to dissect

your strong interest in the downtown

neighbor, you know, the downtown zoning.

Um, you know, first we always try and

avoid spot zoning parcel by parcel.

That's kind of not a good thing. Uh but

more importantly in my mind, the one

thing that jumps out at me is the fact

that I think I know it's 275 or 325 foot

height limitation that giving you the

zoning would do. Uh and that in my mind

uh we've seen bait and switch and I

don't know you you speak well but um you

know why would you need that? Uh G like

I said it gives us the flexibility and

um as Mr. Knight pointed out the

differences are very little. Um,

obviously we have the height differences

are substantial, right? We're not

building 24tory building on that site in

the Midtown is very substantial compared

to what the neighborhood would would.

One thing to point out

and there are there are restrictions

there, but you do have multiple

buildings on the parcel. So, one could

be historic, the other one could be

dropped. I mean yeah going after that

the other thing is I

think that

uh we've got a great

plan a lot of first floor space that was

back house the hospital Um but it's a

large building and there's a lot

needs you know in order to make it

justifiably financially

uh to make use of the other part of it

is

that you know we all believe in the

apartment but 250 is a lot of we're just

not

sure that we get down the road.

Makes sense. Building one is phase two

retail. Um but we may find that we

can't entire

so what what do you gain? I mean, as we

looked at the uses, we would gain the

hotel use by which you can

do a lot.

Maybe 50 units, 75

units, but we could also do self storage

back on four

street

a You can easily pull trucks in it and

that first

floor, you know, part of

it would really lend itself to self

storage and maybe even more of it, not

only for

resto. So I mean that's the rationale

behind why we ask for downtown to do

whatever we want whenever we want.

What's our contingency plan of the

department?

And it it it takes uh tremendous time to

get in front of you guys and in front of

uh all all the boards that in order to

get approvals for minor things uh with

with the with the small variances that

you would need. In this case, we don't

we don't need most of them. Um and

um we talked about things like parking.

We have parking. we have parking like

you wouldn't believe. I don't I don't

think that it's economically feasible to

build ground up

um in this in I mean could be 50 years

or 100 years from now to do ground up uh

in this neighborhood. um we have to use

the existing structures um and and even

at that we're going to we're going to be

uh at at big numbers per square foot to

do the projects we're we're we're

proposing uh groundup construction in

that area. I

mean if somebody could do a 24story

building I might be great. We could

never do that and I don't think anybody

could. Um but um uh we we have uh our

plans are to use the buildings exactly

how they are. Uh change them a little

bit uh here or there, fix them up. In

some cases, we need windows uh in in the

first project. Um and I'm I'm going to

say this. I I owned a a property uh for

years years ago um in Philadelphia

called the Bud Plant. That's how Greg

and I first met. And it's not uh too

different.

um from from this building with the

exception of I bought it 11 years after

the bud plant moved out. Um what happens

to a building like this when it sits

around? It turns into the Bud Plant. And

that was not 300,000. It was 2 million

square feet of similar buildings. And it

reminds me exactly the same thing except

this place had, you know, no uh broken

windows and and all these things. It was

was

um it was it it needed to be redeveloped

and it was very very difficult at at

some point but I just we weren't able to

do it and we sold it to um a group that

came in uh with Michael Dell from Dell

Computers money that uh that was

reorganizing it but they've been they've

owned it for seven years and haven't

done anything with it either.

So, um, you know, we we don't want to

have to sit on a project like this for

seven years. We want to start we'd like

to start um renting units a year from

now. And in order to do that, we have to

not have to go through um a process that

would handcuff us. We we use our own

money to build uh houses like this or do

do projects like this. Uh we don't have

Michael Dell's money. Um all of our

money is in house. We don't bring

outside money in. Um the other thing is

that if we find that it could become too

difficult, we would walk away from it.

So

um god forbid we sit on it for seven

years and sell it to someone else who

sits on it for seven years and nothing

happens to it. That's the story. I'm

sorry. It was after I bought it. It was

11 years, seven for me, seven for the

next guy. So that's the BUD plan in

Philadelphia in Icetown. Now that that

could happen here if if something

doesn't happen to this to this area.

Also, you know, there's talk that the

hospital may not stay there. So you you

lose the hospital in that space, you lo

you don't you have our space that

becomes undeveloped and then you going

to have a disaster in that area. Um, so

I think that encouraging development

like what we're trying and by the way

everything I've seen here today, you

haven't been you haven't told us you're

not encouraging development. Uh, making

it as easy as us as possible to develop

this property with the money that we're

going to have to put out there. I I

don't I don't see or haven't seen or

heard of any other investments this

large in Harrisburg in a long time. And

I think that um that's something that we

bring to the table that that I think

that no one else has thought of here

before. And when we bought this

property, uh it had been for auction uh

three or four times before we before we

we bought it. Um at that point, it fell

into bankruptcy and we bought it out of

bankruptcy. So nobody even bought it at

auction. So we for some reason we're

here. Uh we see some potential here. Um,

and we all we need we're not asking you

to help us. We're just asking you not to

stop us. Uh, not not to prevent us from

doing what we think we can do to

revitalize this area. Um, I guess I I'm

I'm still unconvinced of why the project

can't happen. Uh, I think you saw I

think you yourself indicated how

relatively easy we were to deal with the

folks who came in with more different

struggles tonight. uh a 30-day

application period, a meeting with the

planning commission, and possibly zoning

60 days. If it's something you know is

coming in advance on a project that

you've already built phase one on, I

struggle to see how that is an

insurmountable mountain to climb and it

just kind of indicates a disdain for the

planning process that we represent here.

Um but I guess Jeff, uh I get the idea

of storage that is the most

incomeroucing square footage that you

can build, you know, the the you you

know like the youth store kind of

things is how is that regulated under

community neighborhood? So, um a self-

storage facility is not permitted by

writing under uh the CN district, but

it's also not permitted by right in the

DC district. It requires a special

exception. So, if from what I'm hearing,

there's three uses that might complicate

the project. It's the hotel um it's the

brewery and which which isn't permitted

by right in either district either. And

it's a self- storage which is not

permitted by right in either district.

Um and it's not prohibited.

Uh the self storage I mean special you

know there can be a special exception

for those right? Uh the special self

storage is yeah special exception in the

DC district. But I think what we're

hearing here is that there is certainly

a again to hearken back to one of the

earlier cases the economic hardship of

you know what is going to go in here and

if and if the applicants are going to

bring that to the table is say look it's

either this or this thing remains

vacant. I mean to me that's a compelling

argument to say yes we'll grant you

approval for a hotel or a brewery or a

self- storage facility. Um and I think

that certainly that threat is real. It's

a big difficult property uh to deal with

and I so I think that's there but I'm

also um a little confused as to say like

there doesn't seem like there's a whole

development plan out there but yet we're

talking about trying to get you know

units in within a year. So there's

either a development plan or there's

not. And I think there's the other, you

know, issue of, well, we could do a

zoning text amendment, you know, for

some of these things. If that's more

appropriate, um, if that's a more

appropriate process to, uh, free up the

allowable uses in the CN district. I

don't know that a hotel in a CN district

is an unreasonable request. I don't

think that's an unreasonable change to

the zoning code. How do you

describe text? Uh it's it's very similar

to this except instead of uh proposing a

a change to a property, it'd be a change

to what's in here. So in that case, you

would ask that um for self- storage

facility, for example, to change it from

not permitted to permitted, you know,

and there be the justification of look,

this is a huge sprawling campus that's

very difficult to redevelop. Um we think

that u you know, a self- storage

facility necessary. To me, that's a

variance. Um, but I think the case can

be made for that or for a hotel, you

know, changing that because when you

when we talk about text amendment, it

applies to every property that's zoned

that zoning district in the city. So, if

we were going to let a self storage unit

be in the CN district, that would apply

to Third Street um or, you know, parts

of 17th Street in Alison Hill and that

might not be appropriate for those

places. But um in in my opinion, it

sounds like there's like a few little

parts of hang-ups and those hang-ups I

think themselves are the justification

for the zoning relief that would be

necessary to approve them. Um, so you

know, I I kind of agree with

Commissioner McKisik in that I don't

think the one or two maybe differences

that are the hangup between the DC and

the CN district uh are an insurmountable

hurdle when going through the zoning

relief process. Again, as he pointed

out, it's about two months to go

through. And again, I think the city and

probably the community would much rather

see a hotel there than they would rather

see a vacant building there. And so I

think, you know, that just the the fact

of that matter kind of really lends a

lot of support for a zoning relief

change

um to uh to the property. So, we've

we've gone through text amendments in

other or attempted text amendments in

other situations in when it comes to

zoning and uh it seems like an easy

process, but I've never had that happen.

I never had that as an easy process. Um,

in fact, when we went for text

amendments, they always said, "Well, why

why didn't you do something else?" So,

um, you know, I think what we're trying

to So, I don't I you know, you're not

Philadelphia and certainly not. Um, but

I'm just want to point out that

Philadelphia has some districts,

including places that are not downtown

districts, where they make it super easy

for developers to come in. And we don't

do any development in

Philadelphia. That's uh but just so

similar but different, right? You're

much smaller but but uh also a city.

They make it super easy for developers

to come in um with the certain zones um

that that they've put in place in places

like um that are not downtown. They

almost like they give it like a downtown

district a zone. And I don't know if

they don't necessarily call it that, but

it's similar uh it it's similar to what

you have. like you have a downtown

district, they give you the same ability

in the in outside of those zones when

when they're blighted areas like what

this isn't necessarily a blighted area,

but but it's not it's not a great area.

Um, and we'd like to make it a great

area. um with the flexibility that we're

asking for would make it that much

easier for us and that much and and

create

um that much more speed for us to be

able to get um the area developed if if

we can do it in a year. I understand

that's optimistic. I understand that

we've talked about doing uh building

one. Um we're going to lose uh the state

in the next year. We have a partial

state lease. um we're going to lose them

in the next year, which is why we

haven't really considered

uh doing it in building one. I don't

know if you Building one is a large

building. Building three is the old

building that hasn't been really used in

a while. It used to be uh where the

nurse's um nursing station was, right?

So,

um yeah. So, the point is I I uh I think

it would be nice uh everybody here has

been so nice. Um, I think you could also

show that by granting us this that uh de

other developers could come to

Harrisburg and make more investments.

Um, and I think that by

um showing by by showing this small

gesture um I think that it it invites

more investment to Harrisburg. Um not

just our investment and uh it'll

certainly speed up our process. uh the

way with the the the way we're going

right now, we could be 5 years before

uh if we if we go with the old district

with the old with the zoning you're

suggesting. And I'm I'm not saying we

appreciate you suggesting that zoning.

We're asking you to go a little further,

a step further. So, we're saying that

not only can gives us the flexibility to

do more things. We're not putting a

24story building up. Um, but it also

gives us the flexibility to go faster.

And I think that's important in

Harrisburg because if you don't go fast,

you lose the hospital. If you lose if we

if we build this and we lose the

hospital, then you're then you only have

then you then you have the hospital as

the next problem. Um, you know, uh,

there are other problems that are going

to happen if this doesn't happen

quickly. And we don't have a problem

with vandals right now. We don't have a

problem with people stealing copper out

of our building right now. Um, that was

a massive problem I had. I had murders

in in our building in uh a murder in our

building in in Philly. I had uh you know

countless homeless people, countless

scrappers uh in the building. Obviously,

you were you're talking about police not

showing up for your downtown district. I

couldn't get the police to show up in

this place when we had problems. So, you

can imagine uh you know, I don't I don't

know. I'm sure your police are very good

here in Harrisburg. Um but, um they're

not going to they're not they're not

security guards are going to be watching

your building and stopping scrappers

from going in, storing the copper out.

And if that happens before we're able to

start developing, that'll cause a

tremendous burden on us and may cause us

to abandon the project. So that's one

that's certainly could be a possibility.

Okay. Um I just think I'm just

frustrated that he's trying to threaten

the board uh if he doesn't get his way

to do anything possible that he ever

want to do there. Next thing we'll have

a refinery and a human waste incinerator

to go back to thing our women's prison

which we fought over the years. Or the

board should remember we had moved off

site for the 300 people who showed up

not too many blocks away from here when

the Mary properties were all being taken

down along front street to put up was