Harrisburg Planning Commission - September 4th 2024

Harrisburg Planning Commission meeting

order at approximately

634 uh Commissioners uh the minutes with

the August meeting is not

available we'll move on them in the

October meeting

under old business there's

none under new business this is a

special exception application for 2743

North Front Street The Zone Riverfront

followed by Justin Hershey with First

Choice Home Buyers this is to establish

a supporter housing facility on

site Jeff are they

here oh could you come up

okay uh so the applicant is proposing to

establish a Supportive Housing facility

use on site uh the proposal requires

zoning hearing board approval of a

special exception for the proposed use

per section

73057 of the zoning code the property at

2743 North Front Street is a. 32 acre

lot featuring a three-story

4,444 foot structure which was

constructed circa 1900 the property is

bounded by the property at 2745 North

Front Street to the North River Street

to the east the property at 2721 North

Front Street to the South and North

Front Street to the West this attached

structure features elements of the

neoclassical and colonial revival

architectural Styles character

definining features include the brick

facade the substantial entrance Portico

the symmetrical appearance of the main

building the substantial wooden Corners

above the second floor featuring dentals

the metal fire escape on the rear

elevation the detached garage reflecting

elements of the principal building and

the real slate maner roof flanked by two

substantial brick chimneys the main

entrance features a paneled wooden door

set in a simple frame flanked by paneled

Sid lights and filled with wood which

are all topped with simple wooden

transoms and dentals is access by a

small concrete stoop sheltered by a

substantial Portico featuring D columns

large pills and an arched gable roof

pediment with dentals there are three

other entrances on the rear elevation

featuring a variety of materials and

Designs although all appear to have half

few paines pation throughout the

property has varied although all windows

appear to be wood and feature divided

like panes four of the six Dormer

Dormers feature arched windows with

Cardinal Arch designs the structure is

topped with steep gabled roofs which are

clad and real estate shingles newer

additions on the side and rear feature

flat rubber roofs the detached garage

garage is topped with a hip roof also

featuring real slate shingles front yard

features mature Landscaping with a brick

walkway through a well-maintained lawn

property retains much of its original

appearance and the building retains most

if not all of its architectural and

historic Integrity structure reflects

the architecture of older residential

structures along Front Street and

throughout the neighborhood and thus

contribut significantly to the

architectural and historic character of

the

community planning Bureau staff

recommends the request be approved with

the following conditions the applicant

will provide the planning Bureau with

all federal state and County licenses of

the facility operator to ensure that the

proposed use is in conformance with the

applicable specific criteria plan bu

staff recommends the request be approved

for the following reasons the proposed

use will be similar to that of the

previous business on site which operated

for 23 years and will accommodate the

same population groups as such impact

should be similar in nature and the

proposed use seeks to address a

vulnerable population and provide them

with Services which enable personal

growth and self-sufficiency allowing

them to thrive after their time at the

facility thank you Jeff could you take

your name address and relationship to

the project yes sir my name is David

keas with First Choice Home Buyers um my

personal home address is 35 lady

Harrington Drive in New York

Pennsylvania um and I'm the

owner did you oh first are you

acceptable of the condition

yes sir okay did you want to add

anything to the report I mean just as

far as context for our company um one of

the things that we love to do is take

old things to make them new um for this

particular building itself we don't

actually want to touch any architecture

because we do think it's a beautiful

building in and of itself I think I like

um Jeffrey said it definitely something

that we would love to keep and it's just

important to keep it as far from a

harrisb city standpoint um the other

thing is our commission statement is to

positively impact others through real

estate investing so we know one of the

ways we can do that is with this

particular building because we know we

can give

housing for homeless youth into that so

that's really really important um so

then partnering with a program like

Thrive Housing Services would be really

important for us um because no one

they're already doing it so they're

going to do it at a really high high

capacity what makes it exciting for us

to okay thank

you um Commissioners I have no questions

at this time if you have any concerns or

questions I'll start with commissioner

mckenic none of this

time

commission yes uh did you uh contact any

of the neighbors yes sir yep and I do

have as far as the letter itself and the

proof that they were all sent um actual

letter okay when were they sent uh it

was sent yesterday but I did it

overnight that they were supposed to get

it before six o'clock today ah

yeah

uh yeah I yeah something like this when

you when you're trying to put a a home

like this into or a facility like this

into a neighborhood we' really like to

get more of a Buy in from the

neighborhood uh in fact more so than the

letter I I'd encourage you to actually

hold a meeting answer questions that any

may have uh but you sending a letter

that they that arrived today I mean some

of them probably go home from work 5:30

6 o'clock and that's why they aren

probably never here to address this so

uh I strongly uh suggest that you you

know you asked us to continue this and

do this the right way but that's just my

position understood um guys follow would

you suggest would it be something that

be good to maybe go knock on doors or

would you kind of knock on yeah you do

one of two things knock on doors and and

get them to sign a a statement that they

they spoken to you and that they're

approval of it but even better the you

got the facility there invite them all

there you know some evening uh for a Q&A

and describe to them what you're

planning on doing uh I think it's a it's

important to let them know that it's

consistent with what the last owner did

because I mean that's a lot of people

don't know what went on there beforehand

so yeah that's just my

position commissioner Reed she's not

here commissioner U Mar thank you I was

going to ask uh similar questions as uh

commissioner UL did and I would just

state that I wholeheartedly second his

comments and would encourage you

actually urge you to do the same about

talking to the neighbors about this and

we'd probably like to see what their

feedback is on

this commissioner

Jordan um the only question I had right

now is um how many rooms are how many

people did you intend to have to a

particular room or unit yeah great great

question um so we're going to have eight

total youth that would be a lot in the

building that's based on the square

footage with the program itself okay so

one person per room U you're allowed to

have up to two um depending on Square

footage but yeah it will be one to two

and then they'll be 247

supervision thank

you

Jo I don't have any questions at this

time thank

you um we'll go to the public right now

is anyone in the public for against this

project if you are please stand and

state your name and address I'll start

to my left

you state your name and

address by the way the houses were built

1945 and next year with the 100th

anniversary k f wedding all these houses

have the the porticos across and they're

all built by the the famous Italian uh

architect I can't remember but anyway uh

I'd like to know about what this going

to do

supportive so

the I could be

anything and maybe I just didn't hear

exactly what it was yeah would it be

okay if I brought in the director of

this support of housing so she can best

explain it more so than I could more

El yeah you can mind just

bit I need her need you to state your

name address and relationship to the

project Allan 2601 wner Street

har and U we are the program that

property okay U gentleman like you to

explain what the project is um so the

project is um it's a housing program

so it can house either males or females

I closest okay no problem um it's a

housing it's a housing program that

houses males or females um and they can

be between the ages of 10 and 21 years

old so what we do is we we house um

referrals that are given to us from

Dolphin County and we provide services

uh we have a 24-hour staff that's at the

facility and we help them to basically

go to school um get their mental health

and um their uh medical things situated

these are um kids that are taken from

parents' custodies and putting into a

program so that a staff can help assist

them maintain their status in the

community attend their same schools keep

their same friends um and be able to

work to um become productive citizens

within the community currently right now

there's no Supportive Housing program

that Dolphin County can refer their kids

to within the county so all of

our well this will be a license program

so I'm not

[Music]

sure

Hill Street

anyway I I think we had something like

this in the city well I'm not I'm not

sure of any other programs that are in

the city I know our program is um has

been around for 10 years and we've been

doing it for a while um we are in um we

have other neighborhoods we're in pen

right we're all in Harrisburg we um we

have we're only in Dolphin County but we

serve as kids from maybe possibly

Cumberland or Lancaster or York um and

the majority of our kids are Dolphin

County kids but the reason why we are

having a license facility is because

there's no license facility in dolphin

and all of our kids are getting

transported to different

cities well I would still think uh in my

opinion the historical value of those

houses along there and the 100th

anniversary coming up next year and I

can't recite all the history well I came

about it in his book so uh my suggestion

would be to deny

this I'll just add to it I do appreciate

it thank you very much um but we're not

looking to actually changeing historical

footprint or the exterior of the city as

well or the the building as well so we

we for sure want to keep that because it

adds a lot to

the thank

you um just to let everyone know

commissioner Jackson is a former

Planning Commission me member so I'm

glad you're still

active you we miss

you uh is there anyone else on my left

is there anyone in the center we against

this project I'm at the middle now is

there anyone for Center no one there

anyone to my

right could you could you use the

[Music]

microphone

ch thanks so much Rebecca leeart 609

shower Street in Harrisburg uh came here

similarly for a different project but

this pequs my interest because I live in

shypoke and so I don't know if

everyone's familiar with what's been

happening down in

shypoke um but I got to tell you I'm

exasperated by it on so many levels I

have an eight-month-old baby you're

going to hear a similar story when we

get to why I'm actually here I can't

take a walk with my baby in a stroller

without having uh someone on heroin

nodding out in front of me or a fist

fight in front of me breaks my heart

it's actually like I'm going to get

emotional just talking about it I've

owned my home there for over a decade it

has never been like this and uh I see

all types of folks trying to come in and

do something without doing A needs

assessment without figuring out what we

really need we're not getting to the

root of what's going on and we're

pushing people down to my area and we

are tired because we're a small little

neighborhood that can only do so much

and can only bear so much and um we're

going to get to some of this later on

but I do want to apology for trying to

be somewhere else in the city so I'm

actually going to speak a little bit in

favor of that because we do need to

start being cognizant of sharing this

across all of our community not

ostracizing and pushing it to one small

community and uh um you know have you

completed A needs assessment because

that's always you know I have a

sociology background and I implore

everyone that's trying to bring a

project like this in front of these

commissions to complete one get a

sociologist on board figure out what we

really need it's important it's really

important so have you done that no so I

mean what we have done is spoken to

someone like d who's actually in the

thick of it and has a bunch of

applicants and you know with kids that

have done nothing to deserve as far as

having to be displaced from the parents

you know so that would be the needs

assessment for us is going hey if we can

help multiple kids in one instance

that's what we're doing so we're not

looking to bring in someone like you

said it is sad right that's kind of why

like you said we're doing something

about it because they as I think we all

know right the the issues start at a

young age so if you get kids at a young

age that's very very important for us

and that's always been one of my wives

I've always wanted to do that as far as

really help kids because that's what's

going to be and they have someone like d

who has a background in it and who has

247 Supervision in it like that is what

I think a lot of people need and it is

it's sad though if you're feeling that

in your your own neighborhood and I

can't imagine right now as far as how

you're feeling but that's what we're

trying to do no and and I and I

appreciate that I still implore you to

do an actual full-fledged needs

assessment because what you think you

may need you may be very surprised about

what you need not to say that your

project is a no but but you may be you

may find out through that process that

there are things that you can tweak and

do that would be better Suited to the

specific community at hand because a lot

of times people make assumptions about

what folks need instead of really

bringing in people that are

Professionals in this line of work and

doing the due diligence to figure out

what the needs are for instance we got

uh two projects going about one's being

built the vopa and we're going to get to

it and another one that's coming in both

for

veterans how many veterans do we have

here we'll get to it but that's my point

right so you know I implore you to do

that I think it's also a great idea to

bring in some Community involvement get

the community involved have people take

a look at that understand your project

and solicit Buy in so thank you so muche

that's definitely the reason we're not

trying as first Force home buers to do

it and manage it ourselves right I'm not

going to be an expert I'm bringing in an

expert and somebody who does that on the

daily thank you is there anyone

else if not um again to back up my

Commissioners this is why we always ask

people to do uh petition or when you

come in the neighborhood for any project

you know to get together then you

wouldn't have this you could get their

input and then explain it to them so you

wouldn't have to come here and we have

to you know go back and forth so um

that's my concern

so Commissioners

uh motion or did you want to

add anything to the um the

conditions not could I get a

motion we allowed the motion to continue

it

you table it

it's with the understanding that they

would got do what they can to get some

Community buy and and um come

back all right yeah I'm going to make

that motion and uh and I encourage you

to do that and I think you'll be

surprised that that once you you bring

the Neighbors in and you talk to them

that they will be reasonable and as I

indicated earlier I think if you

explained to them what the the building

was used for prior and explained to them

that this is not much of a deviation

that that that will you that might be

enough to to win them over but and I'm

doing this as a favor don't think you're

going to get a motion to to approve it

tonight unless I'm misreading the the

commission up

here is there a second to the

motion I'll second it's been moved and

second to table this project

um all those in favor state by saying I

I I oppos exensions motion carried so I

would just you know take his suggestions

and

try to meet with the

people thank

you the next item number two this is a

land development plan

revision application for 112 Market

Street is Zone uh downtown Center is

followed by Brad Jones with the Veterans

building investors LLC is to convert the

existing eight story office building

into a mix use building with a bank on

the first floor and up to 35 residential

units on the upper floors this ldp was

originally reviewed by the Planning

Commission in April 2021 one

sequentially approved in May

2021 yeah uh thank you uh the applicat

proposing to convert the uh existing

eight story office building into a

residential building with 48 apartment

units I think the um reference to a bank

was uh transcription error from the

previous uh review of this case uh in

May of 2021 uh the current proposal only

considers uh the um construction of

apartment units uh within the building

uh the property at 112 Market Street is

a16 acre lot featuring an 8-story

50752 ft building which was constructed

in 1899 although there was a significant

expansion of the building in 1919

property is bounded by the property at

119 Strawberry Street to the North River

alley to the East Market Street to the

South and the property is at 100 Market

Street and 119 Strawberry Street to the

West this eight story sandstone and

brick masonry semi- detached structure

initially featured elements of the

French Renaissance Revival architectural

style but currently expresses elements

of the Art Deco style of architecture

from the early 20th century was

originally designed and constructed by

Architects Charles Howard Lloyd and

waren Weaver for the Harrisburg Board of

Trade and was one of harrisburg's early

skyscrapers the original High style

facade was unfortunately removed in 1919

when it was rededicated as the Veterans

Memorial Building as the building

expanded vertically and took on a new

appearance character defining features

include the granite water table the

ashler Sandstone exterior on the first

two stories with decorative cartouches

panels and stone Mullens between the

windows the beige brick masonry exterior

on the upper floors the floor to ceiling

Windows of the first floor the green

glaze paneling between the first and

second floors and on the rear of the

building the decorative standstone

Sandstone panels in laid into the brick

facade at the top level and a simple

parit with stately architectural

embellishments the main entryway

features two sets of commercial style

full view metal double doors topped with

a large multiplane multi pane plate

glass transom there is a secondary

access on the river alley elevation with

similar double doors and plate glass

transom within a recessed entrance

access by concrete steps and featuring

two metal wall scones ministration on

the first and second floors of the front

side elevations consists of tall metal

single pane windows separated by the

green glazed paneling the upper floors

feature ribbons of modern single pane

aluminum windows and different groupings

there are no windows on the rear

elevation structure features an elevator

penthouse on the roof and appears to be

topped with a flat rubber roof despite

the modern alterations the building

retains a substantial amount of

architectural Integrity as one of the

few large historic commercial Office

Buildings remaining downtown and thus

makes a significant architecture ual

contribution to the streetscape and

neighborhood the planning Bureau

recommends that the applicant uh

recommends that the request be approved

with the following conditions uh

planning Bureau recommends the applicant

considers retaining commercial space on

the first floor possibly in the area

directly accessible for Market Street to

promote a mixed use character and

activate the property throughout the day

uh the applicant should design all of

the residential units on the upper

floors to be at least visitable if not

fully ADA Compliant to ensure the units

are accessible to as much of the

population as possible finally the

planning Bureau recommends the applicant

coordinate with the city Engineers

office on signage and markings for River

Street which alert drivers to the

increased presence in pedestrian traffic

and make travel safer for all users of

the street plan Bureau staff recommends

the request be approved for the

following reasons the proposed project

will ensure the continued use and

occupancy of a of an historically and

architecturally significant building in

downtown Harrisburg while contributing

to the increasing number of residential

units in downtown Harrisburg

contributing to the Vitality of the

neighborhood uh the project is in

performance with all applicable soing

regulations and finally the proposed

project will add new residents to the

neighborhood and help activate Market

Street Riverfront Park on nights and

weekends while growing a customer base

to support local

businesses thank you Jeff um could you

state your name address and relationship

to the project sure my name is Brad

Jones I'm the president and CEO of

Harristown Development Corporation we're

the owner of the project with our

partners uh and my address is in

Strawberry Square okay uh Brad you heard

the um conditions are you acceptable we

are yes sir um I know you were here once

before and and um I think I asked you we

haven't given up yet I can't remember

that

part but um I know you said about the

parking you encouraged them to go to the

parking lots

and yes still yeah I as with u you know

many of our other uh projects we our

most recent sizable project is across

the square at the maner building which

we developed and opened in 2022 that's

about 28 units a little smaller than

this building but very similar project

um that's a six-story building it's and

this is an eight-story building um but

like at the maner we encourage our

tenants to find spaces in the garages um

and in other you know available parking

spaces that are uh you know able they're

able that they were able to

rent okay and as far as the traffic uh

flow of

traffic um is that going to be a concern

with

the your residents or not uh I don't

think so I know Jeffrey had had uh he

always does a fantastic job on these

case reports and I always learned

something more about the building and

after I hear his case report I'm I'm

happier that we bought the building um

even after hearing it the second

time so it is a great building and and I

don't think we're concerned about this

increasing any real traffic um you know

from a automobile standpoint we think

it'll increase pedestrian traffic which

is light on that section of Market

Street for sure um I I guess uh you know

the other thing that he raised to to me

in a a private uh email which was you

know that Market Street may be turning

two way at some point I there's been a

discussion about that I don't know how

far that's gotten in the in the process

but we're supportive of that idea and

that would certainly help uh maybe uh

encourage us to put a you know some kind

of commercial use on the first floor

right now we're just trying to look at

it uh in the current condition and say

well we could probably fit up to 48

units which is six units per

floor thanks sure uh Commissioners

that's all the questions I have um if

you have any concerns or questions so

I'll start with commissioner

McKenzie yes thank you Joe um 50,000

square feet 48 units less schedule

barrier and gross area in the building

how big are these units I didn't see

anything marked in here yeah they're um

they're mostly I'd say

between six and 700 square feet 6 700

square feet for uh you know one bedrooms

and you know8 to 800 to a th000 for two

bedrooms we just recently did a study uh

updated hour Market study

that said that uh you know the mix of

one bedrooms to two bedrooms should be

about 60% one bedrooms to 40% two

bedrooms yeah I don't disagree with that

okay um another question then and this

is probably the the bigger Challen well

there's two others um there is

discussion in here and it was something

that came up in my mind about completely

deactivating ground floor uh retail

space for residential MH and while it

may or may not make sense in that

particular part that one building doing

so would create a major president in our

downtown that I don't think the Planning

Commission has been looking to see

happen over the past number of years

[Music]

um 46 units versus 48 that's 4.1% I

think of your performa there to leave

perhaps two units in the corner there as

as commercial yeah uh is that on a

reason is if that were to be a condition

um i' I'd like it to not be a condition

but more of a recommendation just to to

be frank about it um I will say just as

an example um we just leased the uh you

know first floor of maner we left we

left the back of maner for apartments

there's three apartments on the back of

that uh four story building and we were

able to put those in there in a way that

it's they're very attractive units we

have a little Courtyard in the back we

kept the first floor retail specifically

because we want we want to activate the

street that's part of our mission and uh

so I think we're open to the idea but I

think and and you

know you're right I mean we it's a good

thing to have you know activation on the

street um I'd prefer it not to be a

condition I'd like to us to be able to

make the decision based on the market

right but we are if you look at um

when we when we did uh the benmar uh

project and I know you're very familiar

with that because it's your

neighbor um so you know we have Alicia's

restaurant there on the first floor one

side which was existing and then we have

not been able to get any traction on

that that other site at all uh

surprisingly

so I'd like the flexibility to be able

to to you know make a decision on that

but I but I'm supportive of your idea

right I think the key thing is you have

a key um signpost as the enter the city

at that location and you have the

opportunity even if you do change some

of the Landscaping I can easily see an

opportunity for a coffee shop or small

sure something that activates that that

corner that perhaps other downtown

retail like the maner doesn't really I

mean it's very vastly to two vastly

different retail environments you know

that versus the other so that from a

planning

standpoint and as importantly a

presedential

standpoint uh that all of downtown

Harrisburg the first floor becoming

residences is what follows so I have a

difficult time not making that a

condition I'm not proposing the first

floor all be I'm just proposing that

enough and I think 6 700 square feet for

kiosk exactly whether it's off Market

Street's probably what's in my mind

maybe it's on the other side that fa is

front yeah I mean it probably makes the

pro forma easier to compl to complete

initially because you're building two

less units right so I me you know uh so

look I I I hear you and we've I think if

you look at most of our projects um you

know the bog on cranberry we saved a

retail space in the front it was a small

one but it's kind of getting at what you

were saying medmar we we saved those

retail spaces Med saved a retail space

you know uh all the projects we did on

Chestnut Street all have first floor

retail spaces so we're you know the ELO

building first floor restaurant right so

almost everything we've done in the last

15 years on these apartment conversions

we've had an ability to do that so I'm

not opposed to and I know you've had

some difficulty renting some of that

first floor space in different locations

and that's not your fault that's this

unworkable uh parking lease deal that we

have which gives control over the

downtown right and I commend you for

attempting to do things in the downtown

because you look around it's not

happening because of that um but that

takes me to my last question and that is

several years ago we spent a great deal

of time looking at the impact of

downtown office conversions and folks

saying well we're going to urge people

to go in the parking garages at you know

$180 a month if you get the day in day

out plan which nobody knows about uh or

the other spaces up to $300 a month for

guaranteed space um instead what we're

finding is the developers are dropping

them into paying $40 for on Street uh

let's compete with the already

established neighbors for the the spaces

that exist right now and I think there

was that point in time and maybe Sean

you may remember the exact numbers but

it was something

like what was it 350 parking spaces or

400 and there were, 1500 permits that

had been sold in the downtown for those

same spaces how do we prevent that from

happening here yeah it's a great

question and and you and I have talked

about this in other meetings and and it

is a uh it is a conundrum because what

really needs to happen I think you guys

were trying to do this which is you know

we need to expand the residential

parking as the downtown is changing and

it will continue to

change as as a more of a residential

downtown as it than it has been right so

the way that my understanding and I'm

you guys are the experts at this but my

understanding is the way it's supposed

to work is that that that residential

system is supposed to flex and and and

be adapted to the conditions of the

downtown community

right and so so as so because you're

you're allowing you know more you want

to create more residential like for

example Pine Street which some would

argue could be more res could be more of

a residential parking Street as now as

opposed to a metered space yeah the

problem comes back that the city has to

pick up that difference under the deal I

understand and I don't think we have the

tax base to be be subsidizing even

further into the parking deal so I mean

I on the surface it makes sense in many

other places it would be set up properly

only thing I can offer you is $50 a

month for spaces in our lot that we do

control on City Island sure you know

that which is not a bad walk from there

yeah across the bridge but um that a

that's a struggle for me and again we

have that hope even though it's not a

required parking in the downtown um

because that's the nature of the zoning

is there um I'm having the trouble with

this $40 a month Wild West sell a

license to people coming in from out of

the city to park on the on street park

and there's nothing available for people

who've been there for years yeah and

these were we've had the elderly coming

to us in past meetings and that's been a

major issue going up through Locust

Street and moving up

and I and you're in a great position to

be able to suggest ideas as well as you

know the city how do we solve it sure

now I understand it's I mean look uh I'd

like to see more residential parking

spaces I think we all would um and you

know we all know I think that there's

going to be a lot of we're either going

to be looking at a lot of empty

buildings like 112 Market Street in in

the next five to 10 years there's

already dozen buildings just like it or

or similar that are available for sale

and the the thing that's working is

residential it's where and we need more

housing in the city but we got to figure

out a way to accommodate this issue and

it is a tricky one I agree uh we've had

good luck in um not losing partment

tenants because of the parking deal but

it is not always you do lose some right

because it's it's an extra expense if

I'm out in some Suburban apartment

complex I don't have to worry about that

right that's one more thing to worry

about to pay for and so um I don't have

any easy answers I'd like to see the

system um be a little more flexible with

residential there's plenty of spaces in

the parking system as we all know

there's that you walk I walk the garages

and count cars that's how exciting my

life is um and uh you know there's

nobody in the Market Square garage right

nobody in it 100 cars maybe a day it

holds a thousand cars maybe 12 even

1,200 and so we should be making we

should be imploring the system to make

those spaces more affordable for

residents with less restrictions but I

think I think the problem is it's not

even the system manager that's involved

it's it's the peda project understood

and it would have to be peda who would

decide they want to subsidize the

development of downtown Harrisburg and

the rebirth yep and that's not happening

yeah and I think we need to continue

those conversations because it is a

serious issue and um I when people ask

me about parking I say look I have a 50

slide presentation how much time do you

have um but we we that's we we have to

attack that problem in the next five to

10 years it's a serious one you are

right absolutely right about

it that's all for now thank you gr

commissioner Mur

I don't have any questions at this time

commissioner

Jordan I just wanted to Echo that I I'm

also in agreement about possibly leaving

some of the first floor for retail um

beyond that I think it's a great idea

that you're actually having larger units

because a lot of the downtown um

projects that have come before us are

studios in one bedroom so you know thank

you for at least um bringing forth a

project that has larger bedrooms sure

sure thank you

Joe uh I don't have any additional

questions but um commissioner UL did you

get a chance

to you might you might es skip Sean here

so wonder why you're sitting I I I would

defer at this time to

commissioner Brad what the what are you

looking at for monthly rents for these

well we're we're I mean one of the

reasons we uh haven't gotten this

project finished yet um is that when we

first started to price it the pricing

kind of went haywire as I think many of

you know and so interest rates and

construction pricing kind of went

haywire so we're repricing this right

now with a couple different contractors

to try to understand what the economics

of it look like and then we'll be better

able to you know price the units um I I

know where you're headed with this

question and I'll try to answer it in a

couple different ways uh we have taken a

about 63 of our units and made them into

affordable housing for our uh

employees and for other folks in the

market uh over the last three or four

years so we have uh units that are

starting as low as around $700 a month

and going up to about 950 a month and in

that range we also

subsidize at about $150 a month for our

employees as well to live in those units

so so uh 20 25% of our

portfolio is in that that range of sort

of I'll call it Workforce housing

market does that

help of those 63 how many of them

are are filled by your

employees uh I'd say about

20 20 about 20 units are filled and then

the rest are in the marketplace

all

right

uh and we are open to you know looking

at creating some affordable units in

this project if that's your

question this project to any project I

mean with the affordable housing crisis

in this in this town and in this country

I just don't understand I mean to

justify your tax exemption why you

aren't trying to put more of them out

there and and the ones you have out

there for your employees that's I I see

no charity there I'm sorry I don't

understand the the tax exemption we're

paying full real estate taxes just like

everybody else you're 501 we're not a

501c3 you are not no we are not we are a

501c4 we're an Economic Development

Corporation okay so we are not a

charitable organization okay but you're

tax exempt no we are not tax exempt on

your five if you're 501c4 you're tax we

are tax from for federal taxes only but

we're paying real estate taxes is my

point just like everyone else I I

understand that

but I I just feel that the

well yeah I I I just feel you should

feel more of an obligation to try to put

uh affordable housing out there for

people other than your employees sure

point and we are and we have another as

I said we have about 60 some apartments

that are in that range so there's

another 40 people in the market you know

we'd like to serve more people in that

area and we'll certainly try to do that

with this project if we can but I I've

seen the numbers and they're tough so

it'll be hard um

it's hard to make the numbers work uh

you know I mean we would have started

this project if we thought we could have

done it a few years ago now in the

meantime the first floor bank has left

and the second floor office tenant has

been relocated so we have an opportunity

to Now sort of take a fresh look at

it all right uh who who who makes up uh

Veterans building investors uh it is uh

select Capital commercial properties and

Harristown

all right nothing further

okay um I'll go to the public if

anyone's for against this project pleas

St your name and address and I'll start

to my

left St your name and address my name

is yeah uh so the building was purchased

by Dolphin County uh back I don't know

in the 80s I think and um

the County Commissioners one of the

County Commissioners uh his father was

the I think the regional National

commander of the American Legion um and

they wanted to name the building after

him and so they did that and they called

it the Veterans building and his picture

is on the uh front of the building and

we told his family that we would

continue to leave it there and you know

respect that and that's why it's called

the Veterans building so understand

oh it's I that was just chosen I mean

somewhat serendipitously but because it

was called the veterans build I think it

was it was a matter of

[Music]

convenience yeah I'll bet you are yeah

he's kind of a

legend

yeah anyone from the center for against

the

project anyone to

right commissioner got to get a

motion yeah I would be prepared to make

a motion

uh to approve the project with the

condition of um probably the equivalent

of two of the units which I guess is

about 12,00 square fet of retail or

commercial or some other non-residential

use uh on the ground floor uh the only

other condition I may I guess it would

be a suggestion we'll put under that

category and that is that

[Music]

um you do I'm putting my planning or my

parking authority chair hat on here that

you do send people over to see us in our

empty garages and that they do look at

the plan that's in place and that allows

them to stay in the garage till I think

10:00 in the morning or 800 in the

morning and then be back at 5: and they

get two night two days during the week

and they get the weekends which a lot of

people it's not well publicized and it

really needs to be uh it's kind of

halfway it's not great but it's not

terrible y so

understood is there a second on the

motion there's no second I'll second

that it's been moov the second for

approval with the added conditions

one's a condition and then I also adding

the the suggestion to my

monologue yes yes well well well the

first condition was reflective of one of

the conditions in the case report

yeah you were making a recommendation

Vern is correct making this more of a

firm condition okay I just the language

is a little unclear that's that's what

we're item one is what I'm making a a

condition of my of my

proposal um you know the uh the

visitable aspect uh I have no problem

with adding that as an condition because

I think it makes good common sense

visitable and it doesn't look like your

plan needs much done to it to achieve

that from what I see that that by design

has in there and of course the signage

and Market is it should be

included do that make sense Neil it does

yeah yes sir thank

you person who second it agrees with

that mooved and second for approval with

the additions all those in favor state

by saying I I I

oppos abion motion C thank you very much

appreciate your time I have a a little

something for you guys a 50y year

anniversary book that I thought you

might

[Music]

enjoy thank

you okay we're on item number three this

is a subdivision plan application for

1103 South Front Street it's Z RF is

filed by Steven Stillers tunnel to

Towers Foundation just to sub subdivide

the existing Oro into two individual

lights uh yes so uh this is the first I

guess component of the overall um

project here uh but the applicants did

submit two separate um applications to

subdiv preliminary final subdivision and

then a preliminary Land Development as

opposed to more traditionally a

preliminary final subdivision and land

development plan um so the applicants

are proposing to subdivide the existing

parcel into two individual Lots which

will each accommodated Supportive

Housing project and the applicant has

submitted an accompanying preliminary

Land Development plan uh for the

northernmost lot uh the property 1103

South Front Street is a 15 acre lot

which is largely vacant although it

still retains some of the of the

building foundations and site

infrastructure from when the property

accommodated a steel mill currently it

accommodates a critical connection of

the capital green Bel but little in the

way of development or active uses

property is bounded by the property 1101

South Front Street to the north railroad

tracks to the east the property 1105

South Front Street to the South and the

Susan River to the West the planning

Bureau staff recommends the request be

approved for the following reasons the

proposed subdivision will create

individual Lots which are in conformance

with the applicable zoning regulations

regarding development standards and the

proposal will help effectuate the

development of transitional housing uh

across two separate projects one for

homeless veterans the subject property

and another for the broader homeless

population at a future parcel to the

South okay

um thank you Jeff I'm

sorry uh could you state your name and

address and relationship my name is

Bruce grman I represent I'm attorney

representing the Steven Siller tunnel to

Towers Foundation uh My office address

is 3631 North Front Street uh joining me

tonight are two uh officials from the

foundation I'd like to introduce they

they have to introduce themselves right

they got to speak

thank you very much my name is Linda Cox

I'm the associate vice president for

government Affairs and development for

the tunnels Towers

Foundation

okay Lewis Menendez director of

construction for the homeless veterans

program um 70 Oakwood Avenue mon Clair

New

Jersey um Miss Cox would like to uh

introduce uh

the foundation and its mission to the

panel um and discuss why they chose this

project we we already had that I

think yeah we got to get to the report

all right um let me uh this is a EXC no

I

think rendering

[Music]

this is the n rendering of

the propos project it's artistic

rendering it's not exact in all details

that will be set for Land

Development um simply the subdivision

itself is to take the northernmost 8.5

Acres of the property that would be the

property uh AB buding the employee

parking lot from the Riverside Office

Center um and uh there is an existing

Road already down to Veterans Grove um

and so that would pass through this

property and there is the emergency

access River down

to so this property would go from just

about before the railroad tracks on the

East down to the river on the west the

property line with the general Authority

for the Riverside Office Center and

then East West line at its Southern

border that would leave

approximately 6 Acres between veterans

grow and the proposed

project so that is the element of the

sub okay thank

you um commissioner

uh I have no questions on the

subdivisions if you have questions or

concerns I'll start with

commission uh good evening uh I guess

the first question I have is I would

like to hear about how you have

addressed the number one concern the

Planning Commission had previously

relative to the green belt uh and

whether we're going to get a gap in that

after 90 or 100 years that it's been in

existence um I don't believe it's been

that

sir but uh ever since the last meeting

the foundation has had uh a meeting with

um uh its Executive Vice President um a

representative of the green belt

Association and the national 9911 Trail

uh there's been further discussions and

as will be discussed in the land

development plan um the green belt

Association has been offered Passage

along the um eastern border of the

property um a sidewalk next to the

access

road and that would

be where can you mark can you please

mark where that is

okay that will be shown on the land

development plan there's the access road

and the sidewalk would be parallel to

that

again that would

be like

that it it follows it follows the

Contour of the

road I guess we're looking trying to

look at the plans we have here we're not

seeing it well they're in the land

development

plan okay

right for what was the width to that

sidewalk I'm sorry what is the width to

that sidewalk sir I believe I believe

it's 5et

you also have um L would you discuss the

grade that uh that sidewalk uh yeah so

so the sidewalk follows the road so it's

pretty much it's a level sidewalk with

obvious obvious pitch for drainage but

it follows the Contour of the road from

the uh property line all the way up to

thej uh the other property line prior to

the crossover over at the bridge here so

we we are providing access uh pedestrian

access across this

road to our property

line which connects or at least provides

an opportunity to walk on a sidewalk or

ride on this road

to uh the access road in beyond our

property mat what's the nature of that

road is that a gravel or no it's will be

P it is okay this road is

existing um and it connects like I said

like we said the vola village to the

access road here on South Front Street

leading out to

camore now I guess the other question is

once I get to that point and I leave

your property I believe because the

other six acres is

separate so we still don't have a

guarantee that it's going to be allowed

to be continued past that property line

under this proposal well have no control

in the sketch pan review of the Eden

Village I believe a couple months ago um

the applicants for the Eden Village did

Express um support for retaining the

existing connection there I think the

major issue with what the applicants are

proposing and as they will know is that

uh the Dolphin County General Authority

has um pretty much indicated no un

certain terms that they will be

preserving or reserving no additional

space for the green belt so once they

hit the northern edge of their property

line there's no sidewalk there there's

going to be no reserved uh space for the

types of children and elderly that will

then have to ride through the parking

lot of the pend out facility mixing with

drivers there um which is frankly in my

opinion very dangerous uh you have

people there that are going back there

to get their license because they lost

them probably for poorly driving and I

think what that ends up doing is it ends

up mixing again vulnerable Trail users

in with um in a completely regulated

parking lot with drivers Mr chairman

with all respect um the issue before the

panel is the subdivision at this time we

understand that the issue will be

addressed but the issue before the panel

is the subdivision

I I have no more questions I'd like to

hear the Public's comments when we get

past the Commissioners and reserve a

right to come back commission O2 yeah I

just want to reiterate for the public

here that what what was just stated that

we have two two matters that are in

front of us the first is just a simple

subd division

it's it's easier the two the next one so

if we if we get through this without

addressing the issues you thought we

should be addressing it's because we

have a second one on the agenda that's

all I

have yeah that's correct I was trying to

keep them separate because I knew it

would be more issues on the other one so

um commissioner

[Music]

Merck thank you so so for the proposed

subdivision

um your entity is proposing to subdivide

these Lots but you are only taking

ownership of proposed lot three that's

correct yes who is taking ownership of

residual lot

one it's talked about being an entity

related to even Village an unrelated

entity we have no definite knowledge

that so they are purchasing it or

anything like

that and I'm assuming that entity is the

Veterans housing no it's a third third

so what you see on the board as residual

lot

one is what will be left of the there

originally the parcel was approximately

20 acres M uh veterans Outreach took the

southern most five acres right um the

tunnel to Towers Foundation is proposing

to take the northernmost 8.5 acres and

when you do your math that leaves about

six acres in the middle so residual lot

one is what's left those six

acres of the 14 every yeah unclaimed I'm

just trying to understand who's taking

respons abil like the ownership of of

the LA when we get to these future

questions that remain on the development

of

it that's the only question I have at

this

time okay uh commissioner

Jordan um as far as the subdivision is

concerned I have no

questions and Joe no questions thank you

okay we'll go to the public on this this

is remember this is only for the

subdivision um I have any concerns to my

left no

concerns in the

middle any concerns with the subdivision

on my

right hello uh my name is Ed jerich I

live at 1521 North 2 Street apartment

number one in Midtown my concern really

about all this I just heard about this

uh you know day or two ago and was

mainly the green belt I don't know what

all is going on here all the various

pieces of Land Development but when

we're done we can't screw up the green

bille right that's been here a long time

the whole County enjoys that right

that's a big organization and I just

think all you lawyers and people have to

figure it out so that does does not get

get messed with but to the point about

this subdivision plan just as a

non-expert just as a normal citizen I

don't think the applicant has convinced

me that it's needed to be done now my

concern is you know when all these

homeless uh the Veterans Park you know

it was originally proposed as the other

project was 15 quaint you know little

transitional housing and now you know if

I'm reading this right we're going to

have 64 units plus 20 more and now it

sounds like we're spending off another

lot which I assume smart people get

another 64 in there you know like I know

this is done in pieces and there's

little incremental spots to it but like

who's got the big master plan where

we're ending up I mean there's a big

impact I think it's risky any time you

take any kind of individuals a certain

economic or social problem and

concentrate them too closely together

and so that's my concern and for that

reason I I hope you you little table or

delay or deny this subdivision plan

because I don't don't think it's going

to stop them from doing the project

thank you for your time thank

you Commissioners um did I get a motion

on the

subdivision oh did I

miss the in answer to that question if I

may Mr s the very Eastern part

um is in the 500-year flood plane next

to the railroad tracks and Paxon cree

and the Very western part obviously is

the river but in between is the 100-year

flow plan and all of the development

would be done in the 100e FL uh yeah

just to correct that the whole property

is in the it's all being developed on

the 500

year I'm sorry I don't

Phoenix not as residen as

Ser I mean historically the property has

been an industrial site I think it's

remained an industrial site till

today okay who was that

hi Rebecca leeart 609 shower Street in

the city so I do have issue with the

proposal similar to Ed jrock's comment

of the subdivision and I also have some

history I think it's important to to

chat about

BPA uh at the time I was the president

of the shuk neighborhood association we

did end up putting forth a letter of

recommendation for that project but but

with a lot of dialogue and discussion

that has not occurred to my best

knowledge at all uh with the community

at large in shipoke I know there's been

a lot of public publicity and putting

forth articles in the burg but not

actually talking to the citizens which

are deeply impacted by a very

complicated issue at the moment uh which

I touched upon

earlier additionally vpa originally

wanted to I believe it was 15 Parcels of

land to reone ownn to to basically

accommodate for the the tiny homes and

we really adamantly fought that because

we realized what was being asked was the

ability while it seemed benign at the

time it was the ability for the future

build of really anything right because

if you rezoned it to allow for tiny

homes you rezoned it to allow for really

a sort of a free-for-all build and um

I'm really happy that we did that but I

feel like I'm living a

nightmare that here we are again and we

haven't even seen vopa be occupied we we

signed off on something that was sort of

um experimental in a way we haven't seen

that we don't know what that looks like

for us as a community I haven't heard

vopa checking back in with us uh

personally to you know uh Garner any

feedback one of the other things that

struck me about vopa and we have to talk

about vopa because it's laying the

foundation and Peggy selling all the

land right it's all her land it's

similar so you know I I remember and I

recollect that at the

time the the tiny hubs were not going to

have showers inside and and we were

being told that that was purposeful

because they wanted to really bring

people back into a community building

setting and really keep an eye on the

folks and really tend to them and I

thought okay that's that's meaningful

right like and then when it ended I saw

article in the burg and now they're

essentially you know Standalone homes so

we weren't told that up front and the

zoning pass and now it's switched and

maybe it's all fine I don't know but I

think that's the point we don't know and

now you're telling me that you're going

to parcel off and subdivide these two

pieces of land and I'm not really sure

what this even means for us not to

mention the fact that at stated where's

the needs assessment this is the one

that we're talking about tonight that we

do know who's going to occupy it again

it's being slated for veterans and I

must have to presume because I'm

familiar with the folks that and working

when I was a president of the

neighborhood association the capitol

area Coalition on homelessness that we

did not have we we barely had enough to

fill the 15 tiny homes I think that they

were looking at the broader like central

Pennsylvania to fill those homes and so

that doesn't alleviate the stress that

we are under and then of course it's

just the open dialogue again of what you

know Ed jerro said as well about and I

touched on earlier that everything is

being placed in one tiny concentrated

area and I haven't heard anyone when

they presented this plan to talk about

shypoke putting up against it and this

is even closer to

us I you know I have serious serious

fears of what this looks like and I

agree once you subdivide this land

listen it's strategic just like it was

strategic to try to pass you know the

the rezoning for tiny homes in spaces

where tiny homes were never meant to go

um I hope that the vpa project works out

I ended up giving it my you know my my

letter of recommendation I think I

signed that letter personally and I'd

like to see it be successful but we need

to see what happens what does that look

like for a whole community of folks with

little kids and elderly folks that are

really under a lot of stress and strain

right now and aren't feeling like we

even have a voice in the

room you know I implore everyone here

please please give our community time to

interact with these folks understand

what this plan really is what is the

full intent what is the full scope of

the ultimate picture what does it mean

for

us we're not saying that we we're nimi

and we don't want folks in our backyard

we're saying we want meaningful

thoughtful approaches to solving a

problem that involves us people that

also live here

too so you know I thank everyone for

their time and please please I I hope we

could get a community presentation

before we subdivide the land of what

this really looks like I'd love to see

it down at the park it's a great place

for us to meet not put it through the

Berg talk to the folks that really live

there thank

you Mr chairman if I may I have relevant

information to that um Miss Cox uh has

uh information about reaching out to the

sholk

association chairman my office reached

out to miss Whitaker um on April 24th to

try to connect with them we offered a

visit that I was having the next week in

Pennsylvania and offered to set up a

virtual call or come and talk at a

different time we never received a

response out a mailer

every and make sure also my take on the

neor association is that uh some folks

within that Association would like to

distance themselves all together from

any of the homeless issues happening

because they're worried about the

property value

I hate to say that but that's you know

that's the word in the neighborhood and

so that's probably why they didn't

respond to you but they don't speak for

everyone okay okay I'm I'm keep I'm

gonna cut you all I don't want to get

back and forth I was trying to keep this

to everybody can talk but I'm not going

to get into this back and forth and you

said you contact her she she's not but

that's a good suggestion send out

letters whatever else you can do for the

community but right now we're on the

uh subdivisions and I asked the people

in the middle I asked the people on the

left now we're going back again now I

gave you your

chance all right so we we we'll get to

that okay Commissioners we're on

subdivision is there a

second second this been moved and second

for approval with the

subdivision uh there's no conditions uh

no that all those in favor St by saying

I I opposed yes opposed one two oppos

[Music]

um all those in favor raise your

hand

oppos motion

Carri

than okay now we're on the land

development plan

okay um this is item number four this is

a preliminary Land Development plan

application for 1103 South Front Street

it's Zone RF followed by Steven

Stiller's tunnels to to Foundation

associated with the construction of

transitional housing development

featuring 64 units multif family goans

including services for residents and 20

detached

comp uh yes uh so the second component

um of this project uh is a proposal to

construct a transitional housing

development for homeless veterans

featuring two types of housing

accommodations along with Associated

site and access improvements project

includes a mixed use building with

tenant services and Community functions

on the first floor and 64 units on the

two floors above and 20 detached Comfort

homes project received zoning hearing

board approvals for the required zoning

relief requests at their June 22nd 2024

meeting property 1103 South Front Street

is a 15 acre lot which is largely vacant

though it still retains some of the

building foundations and site

infrastructure from when the property

accommodated steel mill currently it

accommodates a critical connection of

the Capital Area green Bel but little

else in the way of development or active

uses property is bounded by the property

at 1101 South Front Street to the north

railroad tracks to the east property at

1105 South Front Street to the South and

the susqu river to the

West the planning Bureau staff

recommends that the request be approved

of the following conditions the

applicant should redesign The Pedestrian

access through the middle of the project

site con connecting the front entrance

of the apartment building with the River

Front Overlook using raised crosswalks

across the drive aisles to prioritize

pedestrian safety and Ada

accessibility uh the applicant should

install landscape screening around the

proposed parking areas in order to

prevent headlight spill over into

residential units uh the planning Bureau

recommends that the applicant continue

coordination with the City Arborist

regarding required landscape screening

and trees the retention of existing

mature trees and the installation of

native plants and pollinator plants and

Landscape aped areas throughout the site

and more specifically around the

proposed storm water detention basins

and finally the project will accommodate

a relocated footprint of the Capital

Area Green Belt including the removal of

the proposed vehicular gate and fence

across the existing connection to the

green belt where the emergency access

road along the western portion of the

site interacts intersects with the

Dolphin County General Authority

property based on the proposed site

design the green belt can be

accommodated across the southern

boundary of the property connecting the

existing bridge over the railroad tracks

to the emergency access road along the

western boundary of the property uh

planning Bureau staff recommends the

request be approved for the following

reasons the applicants have received

approval from the zoning hearing board

for the various zoning relief requests

needed to effectuate the project as

proposed uh the proposed project will

meet a critical need housing for

homeless individuals and will

specifically Target a group veterans who

are disproportionately represented in

the homeless population will provide

quality accessible units that improve

their standard of living and will

introduce a housing approach that may be

a template for future projects uh the

project represents a continuation of

recent development projects in this area

intended to provide accommodations and

servicing for those services for those

experiencing homelessness and finally if

the recommended conditions of approval

are adopted proposed project will result

in improvements to the site that will

provide benefits to the greater Public

Welfare including increased vegetation

ecological biodiversity improved

connectivity and Mobility for project

residents and retention and

formalization of green build access for

project residents and the general public

okay thank you

J um I believe everyone's here are you a

new person I'm a new person my name is

Betsy davidsson I'm an engineer with h

Edward blacken Associates in Harrisburg

we prepared the development plans okay

everyone heard the staff report are you

acceptable of the conditions um the

conditions are acceptable uh except as

to the fourth I'm not sure I understand

it we did uh include access for the

green belt along the eastern border as I

previously explained so um I'm not sure

if that uh is satis what Mr Knight is

referring to it is not um as I noted

previously during the former discussion

um this is going to dump people into a

street this is not intended to provide

safe uh formalized passage for the green

belt or retention of safe movement for

green belt users it is intended to try

and um you

know just make a frankly minimal effort

to accommodate the green belt and to

make a Planning Commission uh believe

that they're you know operating with the

various Partners here to actually retain

the green belt and to retain this

critical piece of infrastructure as

noted uh the applicants are well aware

because we discussed this at the zoning

relief request that this that the county

has no intentions of providing any

additional footprint for the green belt

outside of what they already provide on

the riverfront side of the office

building connecting to the emergency

access road uh the design that the

applicants have has the fence enclosing

their project on the Eastern side of

this access road this having the green

Belo across the southern portion of the

track Southern portion of the property

and along the access road would have no

engagement with the residents it would

not require the facility to open up to

the general public and can easily be

accommodated on what is an existing

access road for emergency vehicles and

frankly I continue to be kind of baffled

by the complete refusal to you know

adopt a frankly Common Sense proposal I

think why don't we switch this be or I

can stand up and talk micone that's

fine our only

intent is to take care of the veterans

that need it there's no intention to be

a fair there's no intention to prevent

people from having fun there's no

intention to do anything nefarious to

this Trail our only intent is to take

care of our

veterans this project brings Supportive

Services and permanent affordable

housing to our veteran Community that's

in need whether they are already

homeless or at risk of becoming

homeless or experiencing some level of

housing in security that is the only

thing we care about I'm the daughter of

a soldier my father was 27 years in the

Army I raised a sailor he's currently

deployed with the USS

Washington all I care about is the

Veterans I spent my career supporting

the veterans in cyber and

defense and in big data issues and all

we're trying to do is provide our

nation's Heroes with a dignified way to

live without having hundreds of people

traes through their front

yard we're offering the Eastern portion

that Road completely fine go through it

that's totally fine we don't want to

stop everyone from enjoying the beauty

that is this esana area this is a

beautiful beautiful state I spent a lot

of my time in Pennsylvania I was in high

school in northern Maryland it's

beautiful Commonwealth

here we are protecting the Dignity of

these

veterans the beauty of our veteran

community and I'd like to address the

bringing them together issue as well

when you bring veterans together they

hold each other

accountable did any of you serve on the

commission may I ask no no I'm saying

I'm a vet thank you sir what branch were

you in army army there you go

well so you know when you bring veterans

together they automatically adjust and

they become they fall into their chains

of command they hold each other

accountable it's the rising tide that

raises All Ships as a Navy mom I have to

use a Navy reference right that's what

we're doing here

we're providing the services that these

veterans need our completely whole 18

and 19y old young men and women raise

their right arm and they write us a

blank check for an amount up to and

including their life the least we can do

is allow them to have dignity when

they're struggling to overcome their pts

to overcome the separation issues to

overcome the the self-medication from

trauma that they've

experienced so with due respect sir I

take Umbridge with your

insinuation that we're trying to do

anything but support our veterans we are

willing to work with the different

associations we're willing to find a

solution it cannot be along the river

thank

you there's frankly nothing that the

planning Bureau has recommended or that

we've discussed with the footprint of

the trail contradicts anything that the

applicants just said they can still have

dignity this is not people traing

through their front yard this is people

going a a Trail that's already been

there it will be fenced off it can be

cut off from visibility with Landscaping

you know if you look at the tunnels of

towers website their project in Houston

Texas in where which they're reusing a

hotel for a very similar type project

they're going to have I think 24 Comfort

homes and a similar amount of units in

the hotels the Comfort homes are located

on the existing Dr parking lot on site

with literally the backs of the Comfort

homes right up against the fence that is

right alongside a publicly accessible

Road do those people do those people not

have any of the dignity that the

applicants just referred to of course

they do there is nothing about the

proximity of the trail to them in fact

it gives them more dignity it gives them

Mobility it says you are worthy of being

connected in the same way that the rest

of the community is I don't understand

this insistence that somehow saying well

you can walk along a sidewalk and get

dumped into a road here and drive and

bike through this parking lot is somehow

affecting the Dignity of the residents

of this facility we are not against the

use we are not against the number of

units we are not against Services

provided in here we're basically not

against any of the design of this

project except for the continue refusal

to retain the green belt on site if I if

I may um we we continue to discuss other

projects that we are developing and we

do have quite a number of projects that

we are developing across the country

similar to the this one and they all

have perimeter fence and security the

two projects we excuse me which you just

referenced in Houston the fencing is

going up it's only happens to be part of

a phase two that we're undertaking now

there there there is a fence on site for

perimeter security and we're continuing

the remaining part as part of phase two

which deals with not 24 homes 14 homes

in actuality that we're putting in but

it creates the village and it creates

that perimeter security that's important

to us from an operational perspective to

maintain security within our

facility we're able to monitor the

comings and goings of our our our our

our residents so it is a secured space

that we are deploying on all of our

projects and this has come to be as part

of our study in developing our program

as to how best to create that

Village so that it's a safe and

environment and not set up our tenants

or our our residents for

failure with outside influence that may

come into or in contact with that

perimeter security that is something

that is critical to us it's something

that our residents

have no failure there's no room for

there's no room for failure here so if

we're able to maintain the general

public at a

distance away from private property

which this happen Happ s to

be is something that we we hold

Paramount in our projects to make sure

that they are not set up for failure any

contact with outside uh individuals that

are not vetted and we can vet to General

Public we don't know who walk would walk

through there it's a wooded environment

anything can go and that is something

that we are not in a position to

compromise

in I'm going to let Jeff respond and

then I'm going to go to the commissions

we're not asking to let the trail

through there their project we're saying

put a fence up put a 8ft fence up 10ft

fence up ask for variance for the fence

if that is your issue but that does not

seem to be the issue the issue seems to

be with the presence of the trail itself

not in how it's located across the

property and frankly you didn't answer

the question about how the units the

Comfort Home units in the Houston

project can be located directly adjacent

to a RightWay like you could touch the

buildings from what I saw in the

rendering and how that was okay but that

having a having the green belt run along

the southern Edge and then the western

edge of this which would be much further

away from all of the Comfort homes than

what your other project has shown is

somehow inconceivable I think we should

focus on this project and we have a

similar situation okay excuse me excuse

me I said we'll come back to you oh

sorry because I'm getting back and forth

got to get Commissioners in their

concerns commissioner mckenic

again I'm just I'm distressed that our

input at the prior meetings was

completely ignored uh I disagree

strongly sir you were not being asked to

speak at this time you're out of work

please respect me I respected you in

your

conversation we take the truth I was at

the meeting I know what I said there's

videotapes Mr re brast on hbg told you

exactly what was done the meetings were

held excuse me sir I'm gonna make my

statement please me wait a minute we we

you know yourself you're a lawyer we got

to keep order here you'll get your turn

to respond you don't holler out when my

commissioner was speaking if you

continue to do this I'm going to ask you

to lead you'll get your

chance again thank you Jim again the

point is not that from my viewpoint this

is not a sham game to oppose the goal of

the program that you have and I can see

how it could be viewed that way from the

outside what this is about is why does

the other

49,500 residents of Harrisburg lose the

ability to properly utilize a pathway

and a resource that is very heavily

marketed in our region and used and is

privately funded by donations and

volunteers and groups that support it in

order to support your project what I

don't understand and maybe your engineer

can help me I'm seeing an awful lot of

fill in the flood plane uh I don't know

has that report been done I'm looking at

the plan here it looks like you're

putting about 14 ft of fill if I look at

drawing two of 21 in the upper end of

the site there because I do look at a

hillside that's about 9 to 10 feet I

assume that's been calculated in and I'm

not going to at black you guys are very

good so there's but I guess the what I'm

saying is there's a tremendous amount of

regrading happening on this site as part

of making the building happen what I

don't understand in all of this is why

we can talk about coming along the river

and turning up at the south end at the

same time I don't even understand why we

couldn't come off of the dolphin

adjacent to the Dolphin County uh

property General Authority property

there stay on I'll callon North Side

this thing's cockey the way the whole

city sits but run along the side of the

parking lot Cross grade on that infield

that you're putting the 9 or 10 fet of

fill and catch the sidewalk mid site and

provide maybe not Perfection but a much

better flow that that goes to our

planers concerns about putting five

year-old children on bicycles in the

middle of an active parking lot uh you

know filled with uncontrolled people in

order to you know yes it would require

two or three of the homes to

adjust I know these guys are good and I

know they could make it work so that's

the first question I'd like to have

answered

please yes

exactly makes sense

[Music]

please if you could please read the

grade at the um access road and the

grade at the footing of at the top of

the hill there I'm seeing I think again

this is very small with what we're

given

yep now when I do that math I come up

with 9 foot manam okay

right and I'm not taking

question yeah I'm not questioning the

land devel the you know the the Dolphin

County Conservation District and

everybody else and probably the Army

Corps will get their nod at this and and

the plan will be well and you guys do

good my question just is is with the

amount of grading that's happening

already it doesn't seem con

inconceivable that these units that are

on the top side closest to pendot

couldn't be shoved over 15 feet we

couldn't capture at the river come along

that property in something that that can

be controlled and safe you have that 9

foot grade differential which was my

concern which you've just verified why

one can't cut across grade just like we

do any site accessible ramps um and

again it's not in it has to doesn't have

to be Ada because this is not an ADA

path um and connect down further on the

site and it seems like all the goals

could be

achieved U or come much closer I'm just

saying there are alternatives and that

the absolute refusal to say that

anything can be done uh just uh astounds

me

and uh we we I take exception to refusal

we have not refused to have a

conversation about this important issue

that we all need to

resolve that's why we came up with the

situation along the road it may not be

what uh you you deem to be a solution

but at the end of the day it is a

solution because there is a path along

the street unless you can ride a bike on

a sidewalk you could ride a bike on the

street that gives you access across that

road to Sycamore so there is a way to

get out of that bridge or across that

road to a private road which you have

access nobody can stop anybody from

using that road on a bicycle to another

part of the trail to jump back on or go

out to sore so it's

there and the conversations have been

had with with the folks at the green

belt well I'm well hopefully there's

someone here who can explain those

conversations from the Green Belt uh

during the question and answer

period that's all for now Joe okay um

commission yes

uh do you know how many homeless

veterans there are in

Harrisburg so uh you know it's it's not

irrelevant but it's

most given shelter it's up

to5 County it's up to almost I think

85 and in the surrounding counties it's

probably close

to all

right in a state it's over 900 okay all

right yeah other than that I I just want

to reiterate what Veron said I'm just

kind of disappointed that we're put in

the middle of this uh we we've had

situations like this before where we've

had the developer and and the and the

community turns out very much against

the developer and we what we typically

do is we table those tell them to meet

and come back and they always do uh even

when very

contentious doing contentious meetings

they come back a month later they have a

solution and granted we didn't do that

but this issue came to light a month ago

two months ago and I'm I'm just baffled

to as a why we haven't had a solution

yet but that's all I

have commissioner

M yeah thank you um I I do have a few

questions um a couple just have to do

with the use itself could you explain to

me what a comfort house is and what that

entails so a comfort home is a what's

called a micro home uh we happen to

Define it as a comfort home these are

custom build uh 500 square foot units

with a living

room

bedroom Galley kitchen and a bathroom

all compliant uh or convertible to Ada

if need be they're all accessible we did

speak earlier on on accessibility for uh

uh visitability which all our homes

comply uh and these are unique to us we

we've developed these with quite a bit

of study on on the on the size or the

proportion of these rooms and we believe

that we have the perfect solution for an

individual to live in this home as as an

individual with all the amenities that

they need to live as if they were in a

regular home in

society so the Comfort home is afforded

to a specific veteran and I think we may

have talked about this early on last

time when we met um these are afforded

to perhaps um the older the older

veteran the uh 60y old veteran 65 year

old veteran who may not be reintegrating

into society anytime soon these are your

Vietnam veteran these are folks that are

still out in society looking to find

their footing these homes we depending

on their status honorably discharged are

exemplary individuals they're able to

maintain their their own homes those are

the ones that we are affording these

opportunity they can live here for the

rest of their lives I just add to that I

think it's important to not for those

that may not have heard this already

this is permanent housing this is not

temporary it's not shelter it's not

vagabonds this is

permanent our veterans sign a yearlong

leas to start

prent up to 30% of income

am this is not that's why the

Comfort the the building on the other

hand they're more small they small units

um that was my next question could you

explain how you landed on needing 64

units what is the square footage of

those units the uh the the units that

are in the building are are slightly

smaller roughly around 400 in

change um and they vary because of the

building the way that it's designed some

are a little bit smaller bigger and

smaller than the other but those are

more toward geared toward the younger

veterans the ones that are struggling

that you know they need they need some

help to get them to find their footing

once again uh and be able to at some

point we consider it a success when they

turn around and says I'm moving out

right this is more of I'm ready to go

back into the next step in my life I'm

moving back into society I found a job

I'm able to sustain myself that

particular unit is geared towards they

can stay as long as they have to they

can stay there forever but our hope is

that through going through this program

taking advantage of the services that

are offered to them that they're able to

achieve our objective of getting them

back on their feet and back out into

society okay um so another question

related to the apartment building and of

touching on it but without seeing any

plans of what the the units look like

within the building are there amenities

being furnished inside of this building

is there a community you said that

there's services but how are they being

provided in the space right so the

building consists of three levels the

ground level is where we talk about

these amenities and services so the

ground floor is where our Administration

resides uh as part of amenities we have

day rooms we have a gymnasium we have a

Workforce room where training for re

reintegrating to the workforce is

provided uh we help them write resumés

interview give them those skills that

they gained in the military figure out

how to leverage those back in society so

we have those services on the ground

floor in addition to that there's

clinical service that we provide with as

far as you know psychological support uh

we provide substance abuse we don't

treat it here to the extent where if

it's something that needs Rehabilitation

we will refer to a facility that best

deals with somebody who is extremely

U affected by by the abuse same thing

with PTSD we do treat it to a certain

extent something that has needs clinical

support we provide those uh that

placement in a facility through the VA

that allows them to deal with those

issues so as far as the the the the the

the services that are concerned it's

everything that you would need to live

in a v in a village where you don't have

to if you don't want to uh go out to a

gym you have the facilities here you

want to stay and I know uh Linda spoke

about the Brotherhood that exists

amongst veterans you can you can stay

here you have a room with televisions we

have a uh AV uh setup for large format

screening so we have a screening room

football games and through the community

we end up creating that support that

come in and help us during Super Bowl or

any other you know uh important event

they can have it inside their their home

this is really their residence is where

they live the upstairs and to your point

there their their studio apartments they

have a bathroom each room has a bathroom

has a kitchenette so that they are able

to cook and bake that you can cook and

has a full-size bed for that they uh

they use along with any other furniture

that they need we provide as part of the

Furnishing fit out for that

facility and those are on multiple

floors and each floor will also have a

case manager that deals with the

individual tenants that they are

responsible for and those case managers

deal with their issues with VA getting

them their support figuring out how to

acquire the benefits that some have uh

earned and are not sure how to how to

obtain so we bridge that Gap and give

them the confidence to then pursue those

uh those uh benefits on their

own okay I appreciate that overview

that's a very detailed explanation sheds

a lot of light on what you know these

housing um comfort houses look like what

the apartment building looks like

clearly you've put a lot of thought and

detail into um your establishments how

you operate for the veterans what you're

providing them and what that looks like

um you know as far as the use goes of

providing this veteran service and this

veteran housing um you know this is

clearly very well thought out very

detailed very well well planned um I

don't take issue with that fully support

the

veterans what disappoints me is that

you're able to take that level of detail

when it comes to laying out your build

buildings structure and services but yet

have not gone beyond that to look at a

level of any detail and how you can

integrate it into the community and into

um you know the citycape around it and

the various infrastructure that exists

currently within within this property

space um when I look at a land

development plan I like to look and see

how this plan is fitting into the

greater

Community the greater infrastructure how

it's tying into things and what's been

frustrating and dis disappointing for me

is just seeing that some very important

infrastructure pieces are not being

properly integrated into this existing

the the proposed

development I mean I can appreciate that

but I can assure you that with the help

of our civil engineer and our

understanding of the lay of the land

and most importantly like Linda

mentioned before our focus on protecting

the the the veteran that's going to live

in this community that our Focus so we

we've gone back and forth on trying to

figure out how to balance that and one

thing that we've we we've come to

realize is that we cannot compromise put

any any individual that's in within our

our villages in contact with people that

we can't control like I previously said

um the there's no control on anybody

that comes over that bridge there's no

control on anybody that walks on along

that the uh

Trail uh I'm not taking issue with

people who responsibly ride their bikes

and there are ways because they're doing

it now to get around this area and

continue their Trek throughout the rest

of the

trail uh but that is something that

we've come to the conclusion that we

cannot compromise our perimeter not to

mention that it's on private property

that we're trying to figure out and even

what we're accommodating on the road is

on private property so we've come to

that conclusion to allow

access across that road if you're on a

bike you certainly walk run right

through the through that road and

continue along that road out to to the

remainder of the the roads in town which

everybody rides the bikes on on roads

not everybody rides a bike on a trail

and there are Trails where you go

off-road and you come back on trail so

the circuit is there there there is a a

a way to tie that in that it's not

through this

proper yeah respectfully I disagree with

that um have you had conversations with

the veterans Outreach of Pennsylvania as

to how to tie together the green belt

and their portion of the land that they

have owned and developed and this ption

portion of the land well I mean I'll

allow um Tom to speak uh relative to

their position to with with the access

around the property and quite frankly

I'm sure that he there are concerns that

he has with with accessibility to his

property similar to ours uh we just

happen to be sitting in front of you

with a project that we're trying to

resolve which quite frankly uh helps the

community in many ways other than just

figuring out how this road is going to

tie into an existing

C

yes hello my name's Tom Zimmerman 6526

Plowman Ridge Harrisburg

17112 I am the uh co-founder and

chairman of veterans Outreach of

Pennsylvania uh first of all thank you

for your time we are at the southernmost

5 acres of land it is a private land one

thing I'd want to kind of address here

is that the veterans that we're dealing

with are the one that are homeless and

are at risk these are

not people who interact with regular

people and part of the mission is to

create this uh environment as tunnel to

Towers which we support can make it

better

for people who served or willing to

sacrifice our life for our freedom uh

but part of that process is to get them

healthy as we continue and as you guys

know we've been in front of you guys

before it took us four and a half years

to raise the money we did it we thank

Jeffrey we thank you for dividing the

land to get us to where we're going but

even during the construction process

where we had gates up for the protection

and because big equipment down there

there were people riding their bikes

through the

construction even though the gates are

still up now because the construction

hopefully will start with tunnel to

Towers there are people carrying their

bikes and their signs at say private

property do not enter and I just stopped

three ladies in their 80s riding their

bike who went through our property and

it's a detriment to our veterans and who

we're trying to care for so we cannot

control and you guys can't control and

the green bell can't control who uses

that P piece of property so it's very

important to help our veterans the ones

that have really been struggling to give

them the pride and dignity of their own

private space as we're doing this

healing and the goal is for them to

graduate and move back into society and

live a life of dignity and pride when

you have the general public and it is

private land I don't think that there's

a permanent easement that the green belt

has it has been allowed to

use this piece of property for 25 years

or however long it's

been by the generosity of a private

owner living in

Harrisburg she she could say it's over

done you don't have the right to do it I

think working out a solution that works

for everybody is the best but more

importantly than anything is our

veterans and that's what I think that we

need to consider here is that we are

trying to make a difference and by

bringing in organizations like us we're

going to free up affordable housing in

other areas of the city which is very

very lacking and overwhelming right

now so if I was a city I would be

welcoming U organizations to help

alleviate that

problem thank you

I'm just going to say one more thing

it's beyond me that since the Inception

of these projects and we started

discussion on them there has been

complete lack since of a coordinated

effort when we have instructed multiple

times in multiple meetings to work with

the green belt Association to establish

either an easement a right of way a

coordinated pathway uh revising its

location and we have made that mult

requested that multiple times I mean

when we've reviewed past developments

and plans and it's been a condition and

it's beyond me why nobody sees the value

in a piece of infrastructure that is

important not just to the city of

Harrisburg but to the Greater dolin

Community

you have to

speak I know I came in a little hot

before because I was

upset we have had the conversations we

are trying we're trying to work with the

green belt Association we have had

multiple false statements made about our

efforts part of the reason that I'm here

as vice president of the corporation of

the foundation is to try to address

those issues those falsehoods that have

been stated we are working in good faith

we have had meetings the problem is the

what we have said is okay with us you

may Traverse our private property on the

eastern border you could do

it but that's not the

answer that the association wants and

I'm sorry but that's the answer we can

give and to address the issue that Mr

Knight in all good faith made about put

up hedro put up a

wall I don't understand why it's okay to

block our veterans view of the beautiful

sesana River to allow that

trail on the other side on the Eastern

portion there's a natural grade right so

they can there's a separation that's

natural it doesn't interfere the

veterans won't see

them but on the water side

we're being told either let our let the

trail continue through their front yard

so that they're always seeing people

through the summer I don't know if it's

used in the winter you guys can tell me

but always have people going through

that property that we we can't control

it's not about the the good members of

the green belt

Association but not everybody that's

that's going to use that now open road

that

trail is a member of the association not

all of the people that are going to take

that path are going to be good honest

people not all of those people are going

to walk past and go and and say these

are our nation's Heroes that we're

taking care

of there are some people that will do

bad things we're just trying to mitigate

that you can utilize the eastern border

of the property you can utilize that

pieace we don't have any control over

what the general Authority does our

Engineers are telling us we can't do the

grade thing on the North part of our

property and is the green belt

Association going to buy that strip or

do we have to subdivide that I don't

know how all of that works either but

you're asking us to make massive changes

that may not even be

possible when we're saying you can use

that order and then let's work with the

rest of the community to figure out how

to get to that point we can only control

our peace but we have to secure we have

to protect our veterans from the element

that may not just want to enjoy the

beauty of the CSCO Han and the trail

okay

thank um and uh no other questions at

this

time

Jordan so excuse me so I just have a

statement to make um the city has an

explicit objective to complete the green

Bel I know that that's neither here nor

there for your particular project but

that's in our comp plan and while it is

obviously needless to say you know with

great intention to help the veterans and

that is admirable the city you know

cannot sacrifice the green belt as part

of that process because once that link

is severed it's gone

and as things currently are are proposed

it's

counterproductive to what the city's

ultimate objective is which is to

complete the green Bel we're you know I

can't speak for anybody else on the

commission I can only speak for myself I

don't have any problem with the

project as a whole but we have to find

some type of way to balance this out I

don't know if that's along the

riverfront I don't know if it's along

the east into to the north but as it

currently is proposed it it does not

look like it is sufficient from a safety

standpoint because as Jeffrey indicated

earlier that then dumps trailers out

into the parking lot and then we have

the issue as has already been described

in various other meetings about Sycamore

so that's my

statement thank you

Joe my only question was going to be a a

very practical question that I think uh

was already covered by commissioner

Jordan but do um

do you agree with or at least

acknowledge that the compromise solution

along the Eastern uh part of the parcel

goes into an active parking lot

and where it leaves the

property it connects to a road or a path

through that lot that's defined as an