Harrisburg City Zoning Hearing Board - 05/20/24

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[Music]

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good evening everyone

for

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sorry Tia Cameron Deputy of

City good evening sir

I

do in the exhibits here and then we'll

go on and then you can swear in the

applicant and applicant Witnesses but uh

so this is application

2580 uh 1728 North 2 Street correct okay

uh the exhibits uh board exhibits so we

got B1 is the proof of publication in

Patriot news May 5th May 12th 12 of this

year B2 is a letter uh sent from the

planning director to the applicant

notifying of the letter May 16 2024 B3

is a hearing notice posted on the

property uh B4 is applicants

notification letter certificate of

mailing to the required neighbors B5 is

the application B6 are plans for the

proposal B7 are photos of the property

B8 is a onepage it's a map of a parcel

of the property B9 is a prior zoning

hearing board decision pertaining to the

property B10 is 2024 property and tax

information for the property b11 is a d

to the property establishing standing to

pursue zoning relief B12 planning Bureau

case report B13 is the city of

Harrisburg Planning Commission

resolution so we have 13 exhibits

[Music]

yep uh so the uh current application uh

before the board uh is a proposal to

expand the existing uh Supportive

Housing family uh use um that has been

uh has been and will continue to be

operated by gensia um to more than eight

individuals uh and to request relief

from the associated off street parking

requirements which requires approval of

a special exception from the zoning

hearing board alternatively they are

requesting to be allowed to provide the

required off street parking at a

property located from further than 500

ft per section 7- 327.5 A of the zoning

code which requires approval of a

variance from the zoning hearing board

um so the the first issue and I would

say the principal request um before the

board here is requesting relief from the

um off street parking requirements uh

for um a Supportive Housing family use

um the uh off street parking

requirements are um one uh space per uh

unit and uh units are bedrooms in this

kind of uh living arrangement

um and so overall there will be nine

bedrooms uh on the second and third

proposed bedrooms on the second and

third floors of the property um and so

they would be required to have uh nine

off street parking uh spaces uh there

are two spaces on site accessible from

kelker Street um and um in reviewing

this uh I know I knowe that the uh zp

solicitor read into record a prior case

uh and the reason that that was

presented um was to kind of give some

background to uh the issue and because

um the off street parking previously um

uh I guess agreed upon in that case um

is no longer being provided and so this

is kind of um being reviewed in in light

of that as well um and in that earlier

case from 1998 um the applicants had

gotten approval for relief from

providing the off street parking um on

the specific property uh with the um

understanding that they would secure to

two spaces at the association of the

track County Association of the blind

which is the property just to the North

in kelker Street and two spaces at

another property um owned by the

applicant at 1910 North 2 Street uh the

um property the Tri County Association

of the blind has been um sold and uh

presumably uh the lease for those spaces

terminated um and it should be noted

that the um applicant is also um

intending on uh selling the property at

1910 North Second Street uh they do have

another property at 2043 North 2 Street

uh so they do have another um property

relatively within the vicinity of this

property at which parking can be

provided if so required by the uh board

um you'll note like throughout the case

report and then the uh resolution uh it

mentions that it's just outside of the

500 foot range that's on the that was on

the presumption that it would be

provided at 1910 North Second Street but

upon further discussion with the

applicants they had indicated that uh

that is that property will is for sale

um and so uh if the parking need to be

provided elsewhere off site uh it could

be provided at 2043 North 6 Street um

now uh the real approximate issue when

it comes to this is the fact that uh the

residents are not permitted to have

vehicles um so really uh when it comes

down to it the uh only vehicles that

will be on site or will be driven to the

site will be for staff um and they have

uh staff who rotate um around 24 hours a

day uh in shifts around the clock and I

think they had noted during their

Planning Commission testimony that there

would only be approximately two um staff

on hand at any one time and they can

provide a bit more information about

what those Staffing levels look like uh

but what that means um from a practical

perspective is that the two spaces that

they do have on site are actually enough

to accommodate uh the needs of the youth

regardless of how many um individual

residents are on because none of the

residents are able are permitted um

by their regulations to own uh or to

have vehicles on site this is not

something that's just like a discouraged

type of thing it's a requirement of

their stay there so um while the uh

request is effectively for um seven

relief from seven of the required off

stream parking spaces um due to the

nature of the operations um and the

prohibition against tenants zoning

vehicles uh the planning Bureau U and

the Planning Commission do believe that

the

um applicants have met their burden of

proof uh with that being said uh the

Planning Commission recommends that the

uh zoning hearing board approved the

request for the following reasons uh the

applicant has submitted two alternatives

for providing relief from the requested

expansion of the existing support of

housing family use a proposal which

would otherwise be permitted by right uh

both requests are reasonable given that

the residents are not permitted to have

vehicles which will reduce the potential

impact from the expansion of the

facility's occupancy and that the

alternative alternative site for the

provision of any required off street

parking is located um outside of the

allowable 500 foot buffer and in

discussions with neighbors they've

indicated that the applicant's facility

has been a benefit to the neighborhood

and that they appreciate the informal

surveillance provided by residents on

site and expansion in the number of

residents should increase the positive

impacts of the existing facility

my name is David Slinger uh my offen

address is at 106 West Main Street

nstown

Pennsylvania

194 my name is Shan Delaney from Stevens

and Lee I'm a land use Council for the

applicant and I I did give my card to

this I will

well uh Gia has been there uh and it's

been a residential facility for us

for 30 years or so a couple different

uses over those years uh and with the

Restriction of eight I can tell you that

we've been uh offering services at that

facility for the most part at a loss

that is any uh program that requires

stamping 24 hour stamping you do the

mask you know for DM from uh funding

that we get for providing the

services has us operating out a loss um

Mr Slinger could you explain what

actually the use is what we're doing now

uh sure uh now is a program for women uh

it's a um sort of a it's a licensed U

step down facility for women who

completed drug and alcohol treatment

already this is a facility where they

can come and stay uh but are free to go

out for

work most of them don't have cars we

tend to deal with

u people Medicaid

fund uh burn all the bridges in their

lives so they're not showing up with

cars to begin with but it's a

opportunity for them to get their lives

back together there um they stay for 3

to six months and and

then move on their Liv and we and

actually we have a very formal

graduation process

um do any of your residents work while

they're at the house yes yeah some go

after to

work

and and I believe it was in the

application um director Knight said this

but the residents of this facility are

not permitted to have vehicles

no uh is there adequate public

transportation in the area for them to

get is and does godena provide any

shuttle service to doctor's appointment

job anything like that uh yeah if people

uh need some you know if if the most

practical thing is to either like say if

someone is new in the program they don't

have uh money we may help help them with

public transportation to to go to job

inter Etc but uh if there's uh

assistance that they need we do drive

people to various appointments doctor's

appointments

or appointments

with legal appointments whatever

but they also do go since at this level

of care since they're allowed to come

and go for the most part they go to

their things on their own but times

be and um director Knight reflected a

conversation that we had that was based

on conversations I had with neighbors

the comment being that having the

residents there adds an additional layer

of security uh just sort of some eyes on

the

street are there actual security

measures do you have security cameras

yes all of our gzi has invested a large

amount of money in security cameras we

have security cameras at all of our

facility uh that are that we can monitor

remotely and they've been very helpful

in all kinds of areas I I can't tell you

the number of times I've been called by

police about the security cameras

outside of our not this facility but

throughout our agency that uh you know

like in my office in nstown I've gotten

calls about the cameras outside

been asked to provide footage to the

police which I have done personally at

least um before I go through the the

nature of the request why we're here

tonight special exception

request does the board have any

questions for Mr Slinger regarding the

operation of the facility at 1728

Mr SL what's your position you you work

for goodenia right what's your position

there my position now is I'm chief

executive for Real Estate I've been a

genen for I'm actually a graduate of

genen I came to genen into treatment 43

years ago oh and uh I've been working

there for 41 years right and I've had

many different positions over those

years so I I was involved in buying when

we bought this building and when we

renovated building and and open that

program and for this um you were talking

about public transportation that

sometimes you know you may provide a

shuttle but otherwise what they would be

able to catch a bus right that that's

mainly how they would probably get

around yeah all

right

and this is it's not uncommon that you

know that the fact that we heard

positive uh comments from the neighbors

of course many people when we first try

to open programs are nervous about what

we do and the kind of services that we

offer but that is a very common uh

because G has 100 locations in

throughout Pennsylvania and so other the

states and uh it's very common that

after we open people change them they

realize that we are actually a

positive for

in and when you said right that they're

in the question was that they are not

permitted to have vehic Les is that

something

they sign or do they just yeah I mean

it's there's no way to could have

vehicle fa without you know without us

knowing it and um we uh you know

obviously we monitor people's comings

and going we we have cameras around the

whole facility inside and outside it's

um and it's not like I said it's not

really an issue because the nature of

the client that we deal with they don't

have CS right that's what I was thinking

to okay even even if we didn't have the

role they wouldn't have C it's not part

of their

reality for the most part right they

wouldn't right have the means or

whatever okay and and one thing I think

that's important to note is this is a

service that is serving this community

uh Gooden used to actually have a

facility at the former state hospital

that had to be closed um so there there

is pressure on the existing facilities

that they have which is part of the

nature of the request um but so

essentially as as director Knight went

through we have situation here where we

have a use that does not require the

required parking required parking is one

space per unit a unit is a bedroom we

have nine bedrooms um that is different

than under the the prior ordinance there

was was looking at the number of people

and staff but that's what we're looking

at right now section 7

3278 of the code allows the zoning

hearing board on a special exception

appr gloval basis to reduce uh the

number required par spaces when

appropriate um there are there's a list

of five criteria and it's not an and

it's an or or Andor so right um the

first is that there's adequate

commercial and public parking available

in the

vicinity there is adequate parking

because we don't need any parking

because our residents aren't cars I mean

it is it is at certain times of day

certain times of the week it is can be a

challenging place to park and there were

some spaces that were lost right at this

intersection second and kelper when the

roundabout was put in but there is

adequate parking provided because we

don't need any we have two spaces on

site we have on average two employees on

site actually on the weekends it's only

one um second is that there's uh public

transportation is available and that

that it is adequate um and that there

another potential is that there's uh

either car share or some other service

that's provid provided and that's the

gardenia shuttle which is available as

needed so

um personally I think that that there

are there's justification for the

request I think there's justification

for considering and approving the

request it is a special exception um so

the board obviously has the legal

requirements uh that the chair went

through um since section

73236 subsection B there's seven

criteria

um one is that the use is not clearly in

conflict with city ordinances the

ordinance actually provides for this so

it

isent um the use has to include proper

traffic Ingress and egress uh the

vehicles and pedestrians we did put in

the application there are multiple

entrances to the building there is

Street access you know curb cut for the

parking spaces that are off of Felker

street so there I believe there is

proper rested property

um we have to show that there will not

be a significant public safety hazard

including fire toxic or explosive

hazards this is at its hard residential

use that has been conducted for decades

I don't believe that

it provides any Hazard um the fourth

criteria is that the use will not

negatively affect or significantly

affect the neighborhood or the zoning

District in which it's located this use

is permitted by right

there's no construction composed that is

proposed basically looking at expanding

the use inside the building rooms that

are already there so I would not see

that there' be an impact on the

character of the community fact on part

of the community now

um plant screening walls BM sight layout

again there's no construction proposed

so that doesn't really apply in this

situation um Environmental Compliance

standards performance standards in

section six

we don't it's not an issue for us

cleaning equipment to clean the bathroom

about it um and as far as a historically

significant architecture you to show

that any changes will limit minimize any

changes to it's historically significant

I don't believe that the building is

historically significant but it is

interesting

um said a mix of vernacular Styles um

but regardless there's no changes

proposed to the Bild so I believe that

the applicant has satisfied the criteria

for the granting of a special exception

and it'll be appropriate for the board

to consider

that anybody else

here 1728

and uh you know because we a large agcy

of facilities we can at any given time

we can can have the facility that money

year after year but ultimately that

becomes problematic and I think this

facility has lost money every year for

quite some time um and you know it's

subsidized by other facilities that have

positive uh but uh it's it's almost

impossible to run a facility for eight

people with 24-hour

staing um

we don't see much that the

um and yeah we haven't really decided

exactly how many people you have to

figure out you know how many offices

need you know we'll obviously comply

with whatever the space requirements

are but but to that point in the

interest of cander to the tribunal um

the number 12 was a relic of a prior

application from

2006 the the current zoning basically

requires that the use has to comply with

code building code and code uh the

requirement is that there if you look at

the bedrooms there has to be a minimum

of 50 square feet per resident per

bedroom um that's actually less than the

state

requirement property and the applicant

are licensed by the state state actually

requires 60 square F feet per per per

per resident per room so uh the request

is is potentially for more than 12

based on the the codes that exist today

for the

us we do get I I don't know uh where all

the referrals come from they would come

from the the county or from uh another

govern could come from other Deni

facilities that they completed treatment

there or could be from another drug and

out treatment facility where they've

contined treatment um there's an

outpatient well with the the par is two

and a half blocks up the streets right

across from the governor's mansion

that's an alation facility so there's

there's a a wide Network yeah Gia has

operated drug and alcohol treatment

programs and services in Harrisburg

since around

1972 uh we had Pro we have currently we

have a place on chamille road inara we

have a place at 2835 nor Front Street we

have the we have an outpatient in mburg

uh we have an alation up Second Street

we have an apartment building next door

to

that um and we used to have F programs

on the ground to the state hospital

which we had you know we've been told we

had to close them like 15 years ago but

it's finally happened we're we're out of

there the uh other property that uh 2043

North Second street is that the one that

you were just mentioning that's like a

couple of blocks two and a half

blocks um it's a little further I think

than two and a half blocks from this

location but right the one that they

were talking about before that was just

beyond 500 feet is the other that other

one that's 1910 the other are 2039

another

block yeah like we said most of the

parking needs are going to be met there

could you know sometimes it could be you

know occasionally there might be three

people a with cars if that's third you

know we can clearly say to people that

don't two two cars park there if there's

more than two there then you have to

park

up and that facility has 14 spaces

um I've been driving by it on my way

home uh it's usually just four four or

five spaces are occupied that and

there's a there's

a a dumpster in one of the spaces but so

how far is that I mean

that's beyond well you know farther than

the other one right 1473 ft okay

thanks and the um is there any other

parking available because he said if it

wasn't two the two on site then you

automatically go to the other one I mean

is there any available parking anywhere

else you know I looked you know the uh I

spoke to the people who now own the uh

like part

of Tri County associate ass I made one

offer them which they turned down then I

made them a significantly higher offer I

tripled my first offer and they didn't

even respond I talked to the

U cleaner across the street about so

I'll continue to I'm willing to rent

spes I just

haven't I think like nothing on I think

your or anything like that there there

is I mean I think it depends what time

of the day you're there but um there is

uh parking along one side of kelker

street uh between second and front uh

the stretch of kelker and um you know

having driven around just at various

times of the day you know there is

occasionally on Street spaces there and

there may be on straight spaces um on

Second Street as well generally further

to the north and uh along the front edge

of the um Association of the blind

building I think you generally find some

you know a space or two I also went to

the

exposed restaurant the other side and I

can see they

can't well the immediate neighbor to the

west

um it's it's an interesting building you

can park underneath it and there's

parking behind it and share a property

line and our building actually right on

the property line and there's probably

11 spaces a buing the building and they

had no interest in no and I there's

still a couple people I reach out to

like Mari that is similar nonprofit

loation has a place right at second in

right at front in the that same block

and I haven't spoken to I've tried to

call them a couple times although they

they they looks like they have a for l

of about 15 spaces but I don't know if

there'll be they're a big organization

I'll have a hard time finding someone

right it we'll prove

it uh but it's not I can say and I did a

walk myself I walked I three blocks in

every direction around the building and

I counted uh a significant number of uh

on street parking places at least 10 or

15 however that was during the day you

know right at night I'm sure you know

people are on and

what in figuring out the the

requirements regardless of whether you

permit them to have vehicles or not I'm

just looking at what they may be um so

what is it based on bedrooms or yeah bed

BAS units which is bedrooms okay yeah

and there be nine yeah exactly yep okay

we're asking for reduction from nine to

two and because we and we can provide

those two spaces on site that

exis right and and nothing's being other

than the number of people that would

increase I mean nothing else is being

changed right I mean there was nine

bedrooms there is nine bedrooms that's

exactly there could be some minor

changes inside but nothing stor we

change uh like if we move some people

around the move officers around you know

there might be room that's now officed

that the turn to a bedroom then we got

to figure out where they're going to be

so there could be some minor changes

inside but nothing significant there

wouldn't be more than nine bedrooms yeah

there not more than nine bedrooms we're

not creating any more bedrooms right

so just for my clarity so you said it's

nine the request is for 12 but it's for

nine request is not for 12 um it's the

it's yeah so under the way the code's

written now the only limitation on the

number of residents is based on the

square footage of the rooms so 50 square

feet per resident room which is less in

the state basically the the oy

requirements of the city code code

limmit the number of people that are

permitted um under the prior

ordinance basically it said the

definition of a family is no more than

eight unrelated people living together

as a unit so that's how the eight

resident limitation was put in place um

because this was a semi compliant use I

would say back in 1996 98 um so that's

where the the limit on the current use

or up until the new zoning code was

passed uh now a limitation on the number

based on building the 12 is bit of red

herring that is a remnant of a prior

application okay thank you for

clarifying that um just curious this was

somewhat mentioned but so the space that

what is this the space being used for

now what what

um I guess would be involved in terms of

any changes that would be required for

that space to be Chang there may

be people in in rooms that really are

historically or should be bedrooms that

we have offices in now so those people

would move into other areas of the

building um we haven't finished uh the

used to be a garage now inish

space we may put some options in there

so that those potato free up

those okay thank you the use has been in

in been conducted for quite some time

okay um that's one other question this

is really kind of related to a comment

that was made so in the case where uh if

you had to use parking that was at a

different space which was I believe 2043

North 2 Street which I think you said

was over 1,400 ft away from the subject

property um so there was a mention that

of course the residents are not

permitted to have vehicles um you can

kind of uh monitor that right at at your

building with the spaces at your

building but how would that be how would

you propose you a monitor that if you

did have spaces that were so far away

from your building um first of all as I

mentioned earlier I've been a

client so it we is a highly structured

supervised environment that it's not uh

it's we're not just renting people room

we're controlling their whole lives you

know so it's um is it impossible no it's

not impossible but it's it's not very

likely to happen uh first of all for the

most part they're not going to have cars

even if we didn't have the rule these

are Indigent people who had serious drug

problems who have burned all the bridges

who have nothing for the most part uh

and

um even if they you know the idea of

them trying to sneak or have a car that

we don't know about this theoretically

possible but it's very unlikely let me

ask you do that happen I mean as of now

I mean it's been there for a long time

and never happened before never happened

before and you've places right and

you've also had that rule in place this

whole time that they they're not

permitted to have cars we have that rule

in other places and Gia Services 15,000

people a year that's

in different levels of care that's not

all residential it might be 7,000 a year

in

residential but also I think it would be

appropriate um if the board was inclined

to Grant the request to put the

condition that the residents aren't

allowed to have cars right uh yeah put

it in the order right and I could I I

could make sure that you post something

in

in but that's a that the client signed

something that they're not allowed that

cars I think they do already but Mr

Hobbs I think your question may have

been more related to the staff since the

people that have the cars how would we

make sure that our staff park at the

other

facility no it was more so just about

the the comment that was made about

residents earlier yeah yeah I mean a lot

of people who operate programs similar

to

Genia are less

uh less rigid than us or little more

relx in terms of the living arrangements

and once they you know they may Provide

support keep in mind U we have a whole

culture and Legacy of being an extremely

regimented environment we're not quite

as regimented as we used to be but we

still

uh very much on top of

the got you thank you

so OK yep want the

originals

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H yeah because otherwise it's not going

toen

all right we

yes um in regards to application

2580 I would like to make a motion to

approve the special exception uh to

expand a non-conforming use and the

reduction of off street parking from

nine spaces to two with the condition

that residents will agree to not bring

vehicles to the

property second

second mov properly second question all

in paper

I so with regard to the V Varan that was

we're really looking at that with regard

to the prop the other property that was

a little over 500 ft additionally

they've approved the special

exception considering the other one is

473

ft I would take it to you maybe want to

withdraw it that application the

variance you don't need that decided or

the special exceptions granted that was

just an in the alternative right right

and also I mean really what we were

looking at is

something much closer you know even then

for you know it's uh broad so why just

on a record just say withdrawn withdraw

the variance withdraw the variance

request thank you good point excellent

all right sounds good then we'll just

send a written decision okay great thank

you thank you

all right Sean you

too think

so okay so we

have application 2581 300 hail Avenue uh

and the board exhibits are B1 proof of

publication Patriot news May May 5th and

May 12th 2024 B2 is letter dated May 16

2024 sent from the planning director to

the applicant notifying of the hearing

B3 is a hearing notice posting on the

property B4 is the applicant's uh

notification letters and certificate of

mailing to required

neighbors B5 is the application B6 are

the plans for the proposal B7 are photos

of the property B eight are uh applicant

bylaws B9 is the agreement uh to

purchase the property signed by the

applicant um B10 is a d to the property

uh b11 is planning Bureau case report

and b12 is the uh city of Harrisburg

Planning Commission resolution of this

so we got B1 through

B12 uh yes so uh the the uh case before

the board um involves uh the proposal to

establish a new place of worship use on

site uh the proposed use requires an

hearing board approval of a special

exception application uh for properties

in the residential low density uh zoning

District per section

73057 of the zoning code um this project

um is largely uh converting from one um

nonprofit use to another it was uh

previously the headquarters of the um

Girl Scouts in the heart of Pennsylvania

um I believe uh was their um formal name

and um the so the building itself is

laid out um to kind of have large

Gathering spaces some office spaces very

similar to uh what you would see for a

church so the proposal itself uh to

convert the internal space into a place

of worship use um you know makes sense

from that perspective uh the types of

uses um as far as the impacts on the

community are are fairly similar um you

know much as you'd have a once a week

you know uh consistent um uh attendance

uh on Sundays for this um but they would

have uh uh office hours during the week

um so the property will be open um you

know kind of all week long very similar

to kind of what was previously operating

on site um and the the uh property

itself has uh 43 off street parking

spaces and two lots um to the north and

south of the building uh the based on

the number of um potential congregants

and seats that they would have uh they

would need to have

44 uh it does appear as though there is

potential to create an additional space

or two within the existing Lots um

however the applicant is also noted that

they have um an agreement with uh the

Harrisburg School District to provide

uh overflow parking at the Marshall mass

Science Academy uh which located just

caddy corner to this site so it's within

the 500 uh feet buffer provided by the

zoning code um the applicants had noted

that it's you know probably rare that

that's going to be the case maybe on

some um uh more attended services like

Mother's Day or Easter or Christmas um

so it's probably very infrequent if any

that they would need to use that um and

otherwise uh the proposed use uh is in

conformance you know with the zoning

code um and uh the um site itself seems

to um you know be well accommodating for

a use of this type uh with all that

being said the planning uh commission

recommended that the zoning hearing

board approved the request with the

following conditions uh the applicant

should consider installing a pedestrian

walkway and separate gate so that

parishioners and other visitors can

access the building separately from the

vehicular entrances uh right now there's

no like pathway or sidewalk connection

anybody walking into the site which is

fully enclosed by a fence walks through

a driveway area um the applicant should

install the proposed bike parking near

the main entrance and if possible ensure

that it is sheltered uh and finally the

planning Bureau recommends that the

applicant install landscape screening

along the exterior boundaries of the

parking lots on site to bring the prop

to bring the property into conformance

with the current zoning regulations and

to prevent headlight spill over onto

adjacent Residential Properties um there

is no current landscape screening um

that the current zoning codee requires

um that's a legal non-conforming aspect

of the of the site but um the applicant

in their um submission documentation

indicated that they were looking at

Landscaping um and things of that nature

so we felt it was prudent to make a

recommendation that they put that

landscape screen in there if they're

going to be doing that anyway uh the

Planning Commission recommends that the

zoning here would approve the request

for the following reasons the proposed

use will be similar in intensity and

types of activities to the use that was

previously on site and which to the

planning bureau's knowledge create no

adverse impacts for the surrounding

neighborhood and the project advances

the purpose of the RL zoning District

provided in chapter

73054 B of the code as it establishes a

low intensity use that is compatible

with the surrounding neighborhood and

advances of the Community Development

objectives outlined in chapter 7-31

yes

sir okay um I'm Pastor Reginal Covington

my address is 2312 ABY Lan harrisberg

1711 yes

so uh our church um right now we're

we're in Harrisburg we're in the same

zip code AS 300 hell Avenue uh we

actually have our 25 year anniversary uh

next year so we're pretty established

church um prior to the pandemic we were

considering renovating our current space

it's about 36,000 square feet um before

the pandemic we were averaging about

175 160 people between that range for

Sunday service um during the pandemic we

uh brought up a live stream so people

can live stream our services and then

once things open up after the pandemic

we recognized that uh not all of our

congregates were coming back to inperson

attendance so right now we averag

probably around 110 115 uh inperson

attendance and about 50 people who live

stream so because of that uh we felt

like it was more prudent um to get a

smaller space and and um so we got a

real estate agent and we were able to

come across the 350 Mill Avenue building

um which is about uh 15,000 16,000

Square ft um and it perfectly suits the

size of our congregation so instead of

renovating a 36,000 foot space we

decided to uh it was more prudent to use

uh the ties and offerings of the members

to renovate a much smaller space uh

which uh with much uh lower utility

costs and thingss of that nature it's

just a better all around better fit for

[Music]

us that's know where you would live

yeah yeah I don't know exactly how far

how far

you well to I mean to yeah I mean just

to tell them where you live

and oh okay

okay no

sir what I don't know what is the

distance anyways there's some distance

some

specific right

right and and and let me I mean you feel

you can be perfectly objective in

reviewing this and all that okay I

make uh just curious uh Mr C Mr

Covington since you are I'm going to be

using the the building differently than

the previous organization uh did you

have any interaction with uh neighbors

to that property about uh what you're

planning to do with the

building other than sending out the

letter of notice uh no and then reaching

out to the uh Science Academy across the

street to see if we can use their

parking phone for parking um but I will

say this our our our current church is

about six minutes away D and we we have

several members that live in the

community so it's not like we're coming

from York or like that like we we have

members that work at the the high school

that's down the street they've all

attended that high school so we um we're

essentially in the same neighborhood um

just seven minutes away gotta and I

think you listed all of the yeah you

have all the renovations yeah I was just

wondering what types of changes uh need

to be conducted to the the building but

yeah I see you have them listed here so

um I think that's all all the questions

that I have thank you

m

no no

sir let me just ask

so the capacity is that the 175 seats is

that what it is uh or is that what the

congregation could be on a very

busy Sunday is that what it I I just

know it's

175 which would be 44 right but I also

think that in the planning Bureau case

report it said there were

44 however due to some configurations

that could be as much as

46 is that um there are 43 on site and I

think there's space I and I even

measured it um uh using the County's tax

Parcel Viewer uh to make sure that the

uh southernmost parking lot um was wide

enough that you could create two

parallel parking spaces on the north

side of that lot and that would be like

it's just one parking space short of

what the requirement is they could

easily I think in my opinion um create a

space on site in right on site all right

yeah I I didn't consider it you know we

wouldn't I don't think I felt

comfortable using a residential space um

I think the school works well because

when we're open the school is closed uh

we are open on Sunday our service starts

at 10:00 a.m. there's no school

happening Sunday at 10: a.m. and we have

our Bible studies on Tuesday night at

7:30 p.m. unless the school is having a

parent teacher conference then the

school uh at that time will be closed um

you know I don't anticipate having we

reached out to the school just to kind

of cover all the bases but uh you know

our congre our congregation size will

average about 110 uh 120 uh people on a

Sunday uh we probably average about

35 to 40 cars that are used we also have

van transportation for our church so

really the school was for Easter

Mother's Day those Services where you

get that bump um um for this for this

Resurrection Sunday Easter we had 168

people oh okay right which still but the

other things like I said Bible study um

if there is anything else during the

week or anything they're not nearly as l

third so our our Bible study attendance

is around 40 people right right so

all

exactly

exactly

Road that's all and for those larger

Ministries we would also have parking

and ground Street uh men who are out

there to make sure that no one's parking

uh in those uh but I mean there's ample

street parking um during those times I

think the street cleaning is on a day

where

yeah so we wouldn't have an issue as

long as street cleaning is not on Sunday

right right right or Sunday right there

probably right Street there'd be street

parking available and all that so yeah

that's all I have

too you can do whatever you want you can

make a motion if you want or

all right I would like to make a motion

uh for application 2581 to approve the

speci special the special except sorry

special exception

application um for 300 hell

Avenue

second and um the going back to the

original motion and that is with the

conditions from the Planning Commission

resolution right yes okay and then Mr

fips you second that

motion

okay

then

I yeah so we'll send a written decision

to you and you'll get it you know within

30 days or

so

approved yeah you're going to make the

motion

y age like you'll get within 45 days but

if you want to process the tomorrow or

something like that you can do

that for