Zoning Hearing Board Meeting - 06/17/24

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this is the June meeting of the

Harrisburg zoning board okay uh to the

left of me is Miss Gray

doing great to the right of me is nor Mr

hops I think he'll he'll be joining us

and I'm Claude fips okay I'm call me in

order um from the our our zoning okay

our zoning administrator and our

planning real director of planning is Mr

Jeffrey Knight okay and from the law

office and I'm going to get your name

right one these stage not

yourself okay um and our solicitor Mr

mik Connors

okay um we have a court reporter since

this meeting is a a more formalized

meeting than the Planning Commission

which means there's public this meeting

has public record qued record and record

would be filed uh I guess with the

contraries

or office

okay the court reporter is there posing

board is a more formal planning uh form

of the Planning Commission court

reporter makes a transcript in the event

of an appeal to the Court of Common

Please heing board functions like a

court of law here where must be our

decisions must be based off of fact law

and not the popularity of the

project in other words applicant must

meet a legal burden and we use the

municipal codes and the uh Municipal

codes City Planning codes who our basis

our

decisions um for people in the audience

um who reside near the properties in

question and or have any legally

relevant to say you will have ample time

to

speak what you speak about needs to be

must be gerain must be per to the

project that's in

question um I don't think we have any

continuations I do we no continuations

okay okay so ready to any questions okay

um also all testimony will be sworn

testimony okay where you in when it

comes time to speak good I good I I turn

it over to Mr Conor for the first case

okay so it's uh application

2582 um and it is 2201 North Front

Street and I'll read in the exhibits and

then you can sweare in where in the

witnesses okay so uh B1 um is a letter

sent from the planning director to the

applicant notifying of the hearing B2 is

the hearing notice posted on the

property B3 applicants notification

letter and certificate of mailing to

required neighbors B4 is the application

B5 is a narrative uh to the

application uh with attached photos and

plans uh B6 is a d to the property

establishing standing to pursue the

zoning relief B7

uh planning Bureau case report B8 is the

uh Planning Commission resolution and B9

is the uh uh proof of publication for

tonight's hearing uh it was published in

Patriot News June 2nd and June 9th um so

with that that is B1 through

B9 thank you um now we'll have the pl

the record planning speak um Jeff

would you raise your hand be moreor in

do you swear the testimony you you're

about to give is factual and truthful I

do thank you you synopsis sure um so the

uh application uh for case number

2582 uh is a proposal to install a front

yard sign uh on the property at 2201

North Front Street um which is both

taller than permitted by right and

larger than permitted by right um the

the zoning code allows uh freestanding

signs 4T in height and 8 square ft and

the proposed sign is uh 4 and 3/4 feet

and the signage area is uh 16.4 Square

fet um so uh board members may be

familiar with this property uh it's the

king mansion up on Front Street uh the

uh proposal is intended to both uh kind

of um expand the enclosed front yard

area in front of the building uh which

often has events uh such as weddings uh

that occur there um and then also to uh

alter kind of the fence by adding in a

uh Stone um section uh which will have

uh the name of the king mansion uh which

will be directly visible uh to those

individuals coming down North Front

Street um so and will be large enough um

to be uh both visible and uh kind of

understandable uh to those driving down

um the applicants have provided uh you

know uh number of documentation uh

regarding the uh National um standards

to which this signage is applying with

respect to you know how big signage

needs to be at certain speeds to be able

to be um reacted to accordingly um and

so uh you know this is not just uh based

upon some whims of the applicant uh it's

um heavily predicated upon national

standards um for uh safe uh roadway

signage um so with all that being said

uh the Planning Commission has

recommended that the zoning hearing

board approve the request with the

following conditions uh the applicant

must submit the requisite flood plane

development permit application for the

proposed sign and accompanying fence and

wall elements and receive approval from

the flood plane administrator and the

applicant must ensure that the signage

itself as determined by the location of

the lettering on the sign structure and

that's the uh masonry um kind of

Frontage on which the signage will be

installed uh is located at least 5T from

the public right of way along North

Front Street uh Planning Commission um

recommends that the zoning herw approve

the request for the following reasons

the applicant has provided substantial

statistical support for the proposed

signage based on nationally recognized

standards and with a focus on ensuring

safe access by those traveling to the

property along North Front Street uh the

zoning relief requests necessary for the

installation of the proposed signage are

generally minimal and non-intrusive in

nature and do not involve aspects such

as internal illumination or

electronically changing messages which

might have adverse impacts on adjacent

property to the north the proposed

signage is also designed in a

complimentary manner to the property

Aesthetics and the riverfront context

and does not produce detrimental impacts

on the surrounding neighborhood and

finally the site currently features

minimal signage identifying the property

or the uses thereon the proposed sign

will be more visible to the general

public and will improve site safety and

accessibility for visitors guests and

passers

by well thank you um now we will have

the applicants basically tell us about

the project but first need to swear so

we agre your right hand you swear the

testimony and statements you make are

going to be true I do thank you and uh

you need to announce your name and your

your

residue good evening my name is Ash

mccom I'm an attorney with MCN Wallis

100 Pine Street Harrisburg

Pennsylvania my name is Mark Kowski I'm

the owner of mansion entertainment as

well at events 2201 and

I reside at 1421 North Front Street in

City

you hey tell us about your project thank

you um as as Mr Knight pointed out we're

here to discuss some signage uh in front

of the king mansion on North Front

Street it's similar to a request I was

here with you all before for Harrisburg

University in the signs there I think

that at the end of the day one of the

issues we run into with the the city

sign ordinance is that it does doesn't

take into account the size and scope of

the property uh or the building on the

property doesn't matter whether it's a

tenth of an acre with a 1000q foot

building or an acre and a half with a

10,000 SQ foot building the signage

that's that's allowed is is the same um

in fact in this case this property is

several Parcels I think there are six

Parcels total uh so under the code it

could have six small signs spread out

all over the place um that wouldn't look

good at a property like this and we

understand that and so we're more

interested in having one slightly

slightly larger sign but that does

require two variances from section

7-325 attachment one for area and height

as Mr Knight pointed out um just one one

witness this evening but I'll hand out

these packets so you guys

great Mark what's your role or position

with 2201 NFS LLC I'm the president CEO

and owner of the company are you also uh

with Kan you engineer consultant yes I

am what's your role or position with KW

similar I'm the president owner and CEO

of that company is 2201 NFS own the

property we're discussing tonight yes

when did you acquire it uh June of 2017

and how's it currently used uh there are

a few uses in the building uh the first

floor is predominantly weddings and

event space um second floor we do have a

professional office K&W my engineering

business is located there uh we also

have a gym in the basement which has a

month-to-month tenant uh for personal

did we secure zoning approvals from this

board for those uses in 2017 yes we did

all right we could look at the first

page I guess it would be actually be the

second page first after the

cover uh we'll call that exhibit A1 that

okay yep

A1 now what is that uh I believe that's

a county tax parcel maap with the uh

multiple properties associated with 2021

or I should say owned by 2011 NFS

highlighted in blue can you please use

it to orient the board sure so as you're

looking at the drawing uh kind of

somewhat north south on the left is

Front Street with the river on your left

uh the other streets in the vicinity are

planed South just to the Lower Side of

the blue Highlight that's Woodbine

Street uh the street most close to the

north there a few properties away that's

emerald and then uh behind the property

there are two couple of lots that are

situated that face in front on or second

could you describe the access points

sure there are currently four access

points to the site we have two driveways

that come in off of North front uh there

is a side driveway that comes in off of

Woodbine Street and there is another

driveway that accesses uh from what is

the rear of the property for us off of

the seconds property in the RF District

that is correct

yes and in your opinion how's the

property we're discussing tonight

unique uh as you mentioned earlier there

are multiple Parcels here um it is

especially relative to the need for

zoning and signage sizing is it's a

quite large property uh particularly in

the riverfront District but even within

the city they also have a unique shape

yes as you can see it's not a simple

rectangle we've got a number of pieces

uh that kind of jut out in different

locations particularly as you look to

the rear towards North Second and then

does it have improvements such as the

columns that the fence attached to that

have been around for a long time

absolutely yes we've done our best to

preserve some of the historic elements

on the site and those two are

particularly relevant can you describe

to the board what what improvements and

Renovations you've made to the property

so far sure so um since

2017 uh we have done substantial

improvements on the second floor for the

engineering business um a few years

later we completely overhauled the

entire first floor and parts of the

second floor uh to accommodate the

wedding and events venue which also

included uh significant hbac

improvements uh sprinkler system fire

pump um all of those have happened to

date um also you might notice that from

the exterior we have done quite a bit of

work on Landscaping to clean up the

front

yard please turn the

page before is what we'll call exhibit

A2 what is it so this is a a photograph

as you're traveling south on North Front

Street uh just as you're uh kind of

crossing the property line to our

property with the

mansion and the uh access point where

the gentleman is walking is that the

main access or the secondary access

that's a secondary access where's the

main located so as you look further down

uh into the picture beyond the car on in

the left lane just past that is the main

driveway into are you proposing signage

at any of the other access points or

just at the main access just the main

access point

you mentioned that significant interior

upgrades what do you have planned now uh

so we actually have some other interior

upgrades underway uh converting the

third floor to uh residential guest

rooms which also includes an elevator

Tower and some Associated hbac and

aesthetic improvements in the exterior

we've got a number of items

predominantly um Hardscape landscape

which is a substantial amount of

landscape improvements a lot of which

Focus around the proposed sign uh we're

also doing some uh hard hardcap pavers

to enhance uh the visitor experience a

little bit of Paving work just to clean

up some the existing Paving which is use

a little bit of TLC uh some sight

lighting uh which will also

predominantly to help us with uh ligh

properly lighting the parking lot um

probably the big ticket items a little

bit of fence work um that Jeffrey

mentioned to kind of relocate the

existing fence line to better coincide

with the new sign location

does the Mansion currently have a sign

we do not why do you feel the sign's

needed uh we absolutely need a way to

identify our building as the king

mansion we actually get this quite

frequently believe it or not there is no

number anywhere on the building there is

no signage to let people know that

that's who we are and quite honestly

depending which way they're come from

they they aren't exactly sure when to

look so we need this for visual

identification for Cas you turn the

page call this didit A3 what is it uh

another picture from uh North Front

Street this is actually at the the main

driveway which is the closest to the

building is this where the sign will be

located that's correct could you kind of

use the the exhibit to describe to the

board what you're proposing sure so as

you would enter the this main driveway

uh immediately on your right you see

kind of a triangular shaped piece of

yard that's not currently within the

fenced area of our what we call our

Great Lawn the idea here is to actually

push that fence line out um put a sign

there uh to to bring it much more into

view for folks coming south on North

front and then include some Landscaping

to to much more clearly Define the

entrance and develop a sense of entry

and arrival upon uh getting to the man

thank you turn to the next page call

this exhibit A4 describe it sure so this

is uh the more kind of detailed and um

site plan layout

illustrating uh a number of things I'll

Orient again everyone so the way this

sheet is oriented to the bottom is North

Front Street to your right you'll see

Woodbine which is on the south end of

our campus um you'll see I'll kind of

start in the front of the building and

work my way left so we do have a walkway

in front of the building we're looking

to do some some improved concrete walk

you see a couple of semicircle half

moons that we're going to do with some

stamped colored concrete again to better

Define the area where we actually do

quite a bit of um of our wedding

ceremonies and then as you go to the

left this gets more to the the sign

which is highlighted in red

um you'll see the fence line has been

pushed out a bit in that direction um to

make for a larger lawn area because we

do have some fairly substantial size

wedding parties that do ceremonies and

then the Landscaping that you saw in

some previous drawings will also do in

that area all of the kind of

cross-hatched areas you see that's all

of our existing Paving uh we'll likely

just do some sort of essentially like a

seal coat to repaint everything and just

polish it up a little bit and then on

the plan left side of the building which

would be the North North End of the

building you'll see um some additional

concrete Paving or actually removing

existing Asphalt in that area to install

concrete walks um with again better

definition for guests better arrival

definition and the last thing I'll not

is you'll see two handicap parking

spaces kind of at the dead center

towards the top of the drawing um those

would have access to our handicap

accessible ramp in the rear of the

building and also to our new elevator

Tower noted there part of the on

currently ongoing

k w prepare this plan yes we did what's

the triangle below and to the left of

the red box with the sign so that's

showing a site triangle as required by

ordinance to ensure that we don't have

the sign placed

in site and is the sign also outside of

the right away that is

correct Turn the Page called this

exhibit A5 what is it so this is a

elevation view um detail showing the

proposed signage and and configuration

construction uh could you just read

briefly sure so there's a number of

items here so essentially just the

makeup of the wall is limestone veneer

over top likely a masonry block uh the

letters themselves would be uh form some

form of metal or aluminum that extrude

or stand out away from the sign uh

you'll note also we are proposing um

some cast stone as a as a base as well

as the coping on the top and then the

two elements on each end the columns

those are very specifically intended to

match and mimic the other columns that

exist historically on the site in fact

we preserved a few of the pedestal tops

uh From Another Part of Campus that

we're able to use here to make sure

everything mates and is the proposed

sign 16.2 42 square feet correct is it 4

Fe n in tall that is correct and how

will it be lit so we're looking at one

possibly two very small

groundbased uh uplights uh very subtle

and soft uh certainly that along with

any other lighting that we propose here

would be compliant with any photometric

requirements in City go to the next page

please what is this we'll call this

exhibit A6 sure so this is actually uh

graphic uh illustration that our team

prepared to show what it will look like

um upon completion of

construction again this is kind of a

ground level view if you're in a vehicle

heading south on North Front Street

similarly this is about that same kind

of 230 fot distance from our main

driveway you'll see kind of a bit in the

distance until we the subsequent exhibit

gets us closer but you'll see the

proposed signage um and you can tell at

least for me the the lettering is

incredibly difficult to read at that

distance um and that even does reflect

the larger size that we're seeking here

and you'll also see some of the

Shrubbery Landscaping is is all showing

what it should look like

upon and then lastly we'll turn to the

the next page this is exhibit 8

please describe it sure this is my

favorite exhibit in the whole package so

uh this one shows in much more detail

we're now on the sidewalk approaching

the existing main access Drive coming in

off in North Front um you can see the

sign itself with obviously the lettering

we've shown uh proportionally just you

know human figure just to represent

approximate signs and proportionality

and really does show then also how that

relates to the size and scale of the

building in this location obviously you

see all of the proposed land landcaping

and the relocated fence that comes along

the lines up with the time as so the 8 s

ft permitted why the largest sign

required uh the sign height oh I'm sorry

for the size the area uh again

visibility um just in in the time for a

driver to see the sign react and be able

to recognize and determine to make that

left turn into the main access Drive uh

we feel like this is the appropriate

size um to actually make that happen

safely based on I think by M Speed front

is that analysis discussed in Greater

detail in the narrative it is yes does

the ordinance differentiate between

signage for a large building or a large

property versus a small building or

small property it does

not what about sign height what's

allowed in the r uh four foot maximum

and why is taller necessary in this case

again as we did our a study on kind of

evaluating the proportionality of the

sign with the lettering related to the

the lettering height that we needed um

to make sure that it was visible the the

height proportionality of that made

sense at that height and even probably

more importantly is it it matches much

better with the fence height so it

aligns it has creates the right sight

lines it doesn't look inordinately low

and not propor so to help keep

consistency with the pillars and post

yes exist yes

did you create the hardship that

necessitates a taller and larger sign we

did

not is it generally required due to the

existing conditions on the property the

speed and type of traffic on the road

and size of the property in The Bu in

the building yes it is in your opinion

are the requested Varian is the minimum

necessary to afford relief yes and is

that because is discuss in the narrative

they're consistent with what is needed

to be safely readable yes

and uh lastly have you had any

conversations with neighbors yes so uh

the property owner to our immediate

North uh Mr harler I spoke with him he

was very supportive uh of the proposed

sign fight and lettering um as you see

in this drawing there's actually a

church just south of us uh the corner of

front in Woodbine they recently sold the

church we had a great relationship with

the previous owners we have not had the

fortune Good Fortune of meeting the new

owners uh it's only been within maybe

the last two months haven't had the

opportunity to chat with

them so I'd like to offer exhibits A1

through A7 part of the

record thank you and then also for

completeness of the record I should have

added earlier that I also received two

phone calls uh from people that receive

letters uh that that go out by the city

they had questions they lived over on

North Front Street were curious whether

any signs were going to go up on North

Front Street I explained to them that

they were not the only sign was or

second I'm sorry or Second Street I

explained to them that no they are not

they're only going in at this one access

point um so with that that concludes our

presentation and Mark or I are happy to

answer any questions that you have thank

you marker can't let you get away

without without ask question

okay

U talk about uh uh i' see there's a lot

of landscaping and stuff but have there

any input for storm water management

here since you're going to do some

babing so we actually evaluated we're

reducing our impervious cover by I think

about a th square feet when all a

said

okay ask too uh let's we talk about the

lettering and I'm I'm trying to picture

coming down front stream you saying

you're doing about 35 miles an hour

um did you look at maybe something with

reflective lettering or um some lights

that can basically show the lettering

because you're only going to be able to

see it from coming uh north to south was

there

any consideration sure yeah we did and

to be honest as we looked at trying to

preserve kind of that more um

traditional classic

um look and feel of the mentioned we

were concerned that anything of that

nature is going to feel a little too

commercial uh a little too just just not

in in common with the rest of the

architecture I'm just considering the

other buildings on Front Street and they

have lettering too but they're they it's

lit lettering okay you have you you have

lights and stuff that basically kind of

that um have you talked to anybody from

Circle Harrisburg since this is this

Mansion seems to be will be on in

historical front we uh we have an

excellent relationship with Folks at

historic Harrisburg we''ve actually

hosted a number of events at the mansion

and will continue to be strong

supporters of that group um we the sign

specifically we not have not had

conversation with David and his team um

but they are very aware of our um

improvements that we're undertaking

currently um and we do have them out to

see the building multiple times a year

just through the fact of having events

and having yes

certainly that's all what questions I

any uh from the Law Department any

questions no okay

so uh let's go to the audience to the

left any questions about the

project speak

middle okay well thank you uh I'm going

to take a a quick recess discuss this

and we'll be right back

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thank you for the brief inner

uh timeout okay we're back in session um

I'd like to make motion that the applic

application of

2582 uh be approved with the with the

conditions set by the plane f

the Planning Commission resolution yes

yeah

second mve prop second by S and Mr hops

questions all in favor

I Mark I had put

something yes thank you Ash take

care okay so

let's go with our second

application second

application is uh 50 uh 50

2583 and I'm going turn this over to our

solicitor to give the okay

study okay with the uh exhibit so it's

B1 is the application B2 were the

plans um there's four pages those uh B3

are the photos there's six pages of

photos B4 is the applicants notification

letter and c and certified mailing

receipts to required neighbors B5 is a

deed to the property establishing

standing to pursue the zoning relief B6

planning Bureau case report B7 uh city

of Harrisburg Planning Commission

resolution B8 is the proof of

publication uh which was in Patriot News

June uh 2nd and June 9th 2024 B9 is the

letter sent from the planning director

to the applicant notifying um of the

hearing tonight and B10 is the hearing

notice posted on the property so we got

B1 through

B10 thank you and I'll turn this over to

Mr Knight to give a breakdown from the

planning uh for planning organization uh

yes so the uh application for case

number 2583 is a variance and special

exception application uh to establish a

3unit multif family dwelling on site uh

the zoning relief request necessitated

uh by um this proposal are a special

exception for the proposed use a multif

family dwelling uh special exception for

relief from one of the four required off

street parking requirements uh parking

spaces and a variance for um relief from

the density criteria um the structure

itself is large enough to um that a

conversion to three units is in

conformance with uh the specific

criteria in section

73092 V of the zoning code so that's

something that the board maybe sees more

often in other conversions of like row

homes when it's too small but this is a

large enough structure to be converted

to three units um the uh building if any

of the board members have seen it is

definitely in a deteriorated State the

applicants noted during um the Planning

Commission meeting that it's been 23

years or so uh at least several decades

uh since uh the property has been uh

least legally occupied um so and that uh

far predates the applic ownership of the

property which was in 2023 was purchased

um so the existing condition was not due

to the owners kind of letting it go um

and uh they're purchasing the property

with the intention of uh reestablishing

uh multiple units while it's a little

unclear what the history of the property

was uh before its current vacancy um

it's I think there were some references

in the applicants uh documentation to

three units and there's a three-story um

fire escape on the rear of the property

um the most we could find in the city's

records were two units um but I don't

know that are two units go back all the

way to when maybe this was most actively

and intensively utilized so um you know

we do feel that uh the proposal um to

convert establish three units uh on site

um is um is supported and is Justified

uh by the amount of investment that the

applicants are going to need to

undertake to um correct a lot of the

codes issues that I'm sure have occurred

over the years um and uh just to kind of

bring the property up not only

structurally but cosmetically um into a

place you know that uh that people will

want to live um as far as the uses are

concerned uh the uh multif family

dwelling use um there's property right

next door at 1851 whiteall street is a

six-unit uh multif family dwelling um

this board uh just uh two years ago

maybe three years ago um approved a

conversion for a similar property just

to the South across Regina Street at

1855 Street uh for same thing conversion

and that had and that property had a

similar history where you've got um you

know it might have been multiple units

at one point in the past long period of

vacancy has um revoked that

non-conforming aspect per the zoning

code um and so now somebody is looking

to uh re purchase or purchase and

reinvest and Rehab a a structure um and

with respect to the off street parking

as noted there's a 3unit um accessory

surface parking lot on the rear

accessible from Vin Street uh and the

property has a significant amount of

Frontage um uh directly in front of the

property uh in which um you know the

fourth space can be accommodated which

would be for guest parking anyway um but

also kind of the local context uh again

the property just to the east at 1851 uh

is um a corner lot and so it has a lot

of Street Frontage kind of along that

corner which uh I'm sure is not uh you

know being utilized all the time at

least during the plany be's visits uh

pass the property we have not seen it

fully utilized um so with all that being

said we do feel that the condition of

the property and the condition of the

site uh do justify the three zoning

relief requests uh from the

applicant um and the Planning Commission

has recommended that the zoning hearing

board approve the request with the

following conditions of granted zoning

approval to move forward with the

project as proposed the applicant shall

allow the codes Bureau to perform a

comprehensive inspection to identify all

outstanding code violations and receive

approval all necessary City permits

prior to receiving a certificate of

occupancy and again with this step is

just like a little bit more um than um

what we might normally have in a

proposal to convert uh given the long

period of occup vacancy which again not

the applicant's fault um we have no idea

what might have occurred either prior to

that or during that time and we want to

make sure everything Electrical Plumbing

is brought up to code uh and then the

applicant will coordinate with the

Department of Public Works to ensure

that the account bilding is updated to

reflect the proposed change in use uh

the Planning Commission recommended the

zoning hearing board approve the request

for the following reasons a special

exception request for the proposed use

is warranted by the history of the

property the presence of other such

converted apartment buildings in the

immediate neighborhood and the recent

zhb approval of a similar proposal at a

nearby property with similar existing

conditions and that was 1855 vgina

Street uh the request for relief from

all street parking is warranted by the

existing three space accessory parking

lot at the rear of the property and the

on street parking available on the front

edge of the property with White Hall

Street uh number two the project will

result in the re abilitation and

restoration of a large residential

property directly across from Reservoir

Park improving not only the condition of

the block but the overall appearance of

the neighborhood at a high highly

visible site uh and finally uh as

opposed to other such conversions in Rec

in recent years which have opposed the

establishment of one bedroom or Studio

units uh the current project will create

three two-bedroom units which will add

to the multi-bedroom inventory which is

in high demand in the

city thank you very much okay so the

applicants uh need to have your name uh

your address but before we do that let's

raise your hand like where you end okay

so where testimony and statements you

you're going to make in support of

application are

true thank you

and 2858

still speak up go ahead

up zah Al 2858 still Avenue

apartment for I Brooklyn New

York Christopher Torres 2155 Jefferson

Harrisburg PA CCO

17110 so tell us about your project

pleas yes we purchased this building in

September of

2023 and and this building has been

abandoned for for several decades and

yeah we we are looking to renovate this

unit and bring it back to life as our

propos as we propose it's it's it's

going to be three units two bedrooms on

each floor and and then and then the

three three parking spaces in the back

we're basically not adding

anything to to the outside of the

property we will be improving the

landscape and and then yeah we will we

will do

the all Renovations everything is brand

new basically yeah to the full

Demolition and then the full renovation

basically everything will be brand new

all the floor

plans everything basically

yeah we just I'm here just to make it

happen so okay well thank you um if you

have any questions

um I have a I have a couple of questions

um so you you own you currently own the

property yes cor uh do you have a floor

plan of what the property is going to

look like uh before and

after yeah we do have a flow plan what's

going to look after yeah can you make

sure that yes it is presented I believe

that was presented with the case

documentation it's a fairly simple floor

plan um and I think it's proposed Flor a

plan so I don't know if it reflects

existing conditions and therefore maybe

how much actual work needs to happen um

but they do they did submit a sketch

floor plan okay thank you and I did see

a note not Planning Commission uh so uh

code violations or that exist okay

they'll be yeah I mean there was a long

yeah and during the um uh uh Decades of

vacancy there were number of

condemnation orders issued for like high

grass and weeds uh things of that nature

trash piling up So Co has kind of had

this on their radar for a little while

and I'm sure they'll be happy to um you

know have this property cleaned up and

occupied that's so that's all I have

thank you um from the audience to my

right

questions audience in the center any

questions the all Department any

questions

okay so uh it's recess time again we're

not going off put in a drink I need take

a quick recess and we'll be back thank

you

I

e

e

e

e

e e

so

um make the motion fr

I'll make a motion the

second okay so we make a motion okay so

make a motion for uh the approval of

this project with conditions set forth

by the Planning

Commission a

second second move properly second

questions all in favor I

I thank you very much for

now our next

case applicants

[Music]

so Mr Connors would you read the

application into the record please okay

so it's application

2584 1103 South Front

Street um in a board exhibits or

application is B1 is the

application uh which includes a

narrative photographs uh plans uh B2 are

applicants notification letters and

certified uh mail receipts to required

neighbors B3 agreement of stale

establishing standing to pursue zoning

relief B4 is the planning Bureau case

report B5 city of Harrisburg Planning

Commission resolution B6 is a proof of

publication in The Patriot news uh June

2nd and June

9th um for this uh application B7 is the

letter sent from the planning director

to the applicant uh notifying um

applicant of the hearing and B8 is the

hearing notice posted on the property so

that's it B1 through B8 well thank you

Mr n can you give us an opsis and break

down the project sure uh so the

application for case number

2584 um is a uh proposal um for a use

not specifically prohibited um so this

uh proposal is uh similar to uh the

proposal that was heard by the board um

several years ago for uh the property

just to the south at 11:05 um South

Front Street uh veterans Grove or the

vula site um and so this is similar in

that case we uh set a use not

specifically prohibited um and I think

at the time the zon hearing board had uh

eventually determined that it was a

Supportive Housing facility um this

one's a little bit different uh so we

did make that recommendation in

discussions with the applicants for use

not specifically prohibited with that in

mind um because this is a a larger

facility um that was just 15 tiny homes

which were not even like full units I

think uh this is a much larger facility

uh that has not only an apartment

building on site uh where each unit um

within the apartment building is a fully

furnished unit unit um but we'll have 20

individual Standalone Comfort homes on

the property and then the first floor of

the uh apartment building or mixed use

building will provide like services and

programming for uh residents so it is

kind of an amalgam of you know

Supportive Housing multi family dwelling

uh uh detached housing maybe Community

Center um and so uh given all that uh we

felt it was uh right to go forward with

it as use specifically a use not

specifically prohibited in the zoning

code um as I did not the case report um

a multif family dwelling use if that's

what the board would choose uh would be

a a special exception too so it's not

like we chose a less intensive um uh

path uh for uh this process um so in

addition to uh that special exception

for the use not specifically prohibited

uh a zoning um approval was or zoning

approval was required uh for uh

structures uh that are less than the

minimum height uh requirement uh which

is 36 ft uh per the zoning code uh the

Comfort homes themselves I believe are

about 15 ft tall so those aspects of uh

the site um will require the variance

for relief from that dimensional uh

criteria uh the mixed use building uh

will not um so that is fully in

conformance and uh to the plan bureau's

knowledge at least uh from the uh

conceptual plans that we've seen and

discussions we've had with the

applicants um all of the other aspects

of the property are intended to be in

conformance um you know things like

setbacks um prvious surface coverage

providing landscape screening things of

that nature um and the applicants will

have um the required amount of parking

uh on site to address these even though

um as they've noted in their uh

testimony um the uh majority of the

residents will not have vehicles there

um again this is uh intended to address

homelessness for um you know critical

population here uh in the city um of

homeless veterans uh so I think the

expectation is that most of them will be

on site most of the time or um be maybe

using the green belt um through the

through the property to access the rest

of the city services um you know I think

uh outside of the proposed use and the

proposed development on site um which

the city is fully in support of um you

know as they proposed I think the only

really outstanding issue is the green

Bel and uh you know we this is an issue

we brought up at uh the prior uh review

of the the VOA facility um and something

we've been in discussions with both the

applicants um as well as representatives

from the Capital Area greenb Association

um as we understand it there are

negotiations ongoing between uh the uh

between kaga and between the applicants

um and Property Owners uh and it's not

quite as straightforward as just the

applicants in kaga there are some other

individuals involved as well um but at

the end of the day we just want to

ensure uh that the critical link um of

the green belt is maintained between uh

the bridge over the railroad tracks

which is the only Bridge um across this

south of 83 um and the other Bridge

being Sycamore Street which is currently

functioning as a detour for the the

green belt which you know the planning

Bureau um feels is really wholly uh

insufficient and really unsafe for a

long-term or permanent DeTour for the

belt and so this particular property

just happens to sit right between um the

dolin County General Authority property

to the north um where the green belt

runs along the riverfront portion of

that property

and this bridge um and so our um real

primary concern with respect to the

project is making sure that that uh

connection um remains uninterrupted into

the future and not just for um you know

continuity sake or even for the general

public but for uh residents of both this

project uh the vpa facility and an

eventual

um pending uh transitional housing

project that will be proposed for um the

parcel that will be created when they go

through the subdivision Land Development

plan uh process so it's really kind of

for the benefit of all parties involved

um at that all being said uh the

Planning Commission uh has recommended

that the Zoni hearing board approved the

request for the following uh with the

following conditions uh if granted

approval uh to move forward with the

project as proposed uh the applicant

shall submit a subdivisional land

development plan for approval from the

Planning Commission and city council uh

while the applicant notes that uh the

Comfort homes will be capable of being

ada8 compliant the planning bu

recommends they be constructed to

visible standards at a minimum with

allowances for full conversion to Ada

accessibility in the future and I

believe the applicants have concurred

that that was their intent uh the

language in the application was a little

unclear and that's just why we wanted to

make sure that that uh point was uh

included in as a condition of approval

um the third one is where there was some

discussion at the uh Planning Commission

meeting

um and some disagreement between the

applicants and uh and the planning

Commissioners um it says the applicant

uh shall coordinate with uh the Capital

Area Green Belt Association regarding

their intention of the green belt across

the property um in the original uh planb

case report it said the applicant should

continue coordination with uh the

capillary greenb Authority and so that

language was the differentiation uh this

will retain a recreational a

recreational amenity for the community

at large will provide a walking biking

route for residents to connect to the

surrounding community and the city

overall um as the applicant notes many

will not own vehicles and will maintain

an ecological buffer along the river

based on the proposed site design the

plan be would recommend that the

applicant Incorporated portion of the

green belt across the southern boundary

of the property uh connecting the

existing Bridge of the railroad tracks

to the emergency access road along the

western boundary of the property um four

the plan buau recommends the applicant

install the required bicycle parking in

the ghost parking spaces uh fronting the

mixed use building which you might have

seen on the site plans um or near the

main entrance and be sheltered if

possible residents of the Comfort homes

can store their bikes and their units

and I think the applicants indicated

that uh during the Planning Commission

meeting that they did not want to create

more additional um impervious surface

for the bike parking area so um I I'm

not sure if that means their intent is

to have a secured indoor bike facility

for any U residents of that building um

but it sounds as though they're going to

be providing the parking and it's just a

matter of uh design perhaps or location

uh and then finally the planning Bureau

recommends that the applicant coordinate

with the City Arborist regarding

required landscaping and trees on site

and consider installing native plants

and pollinator plants and landscaped

areas throughout the site generally and

more specifically around the proposed

storm water detention basins and um the

applicants were fully uh supportive of

that condition at the Planning

Commission meeting uh the Planning

Commission recommends that the zon here

were to approve the request for the

following reasons the proposed project

will meet a critical need housing for

homeless individuals and will specific

speically Target a group veterans who

are disproportionately represented in

the homeless population will provide

quality accessible units that improve

their standard of living and will

introduce a housing approach that may be

a template for future projects uh the

project represents a continuation of

recent development projects in this area

and tended to provide accommodations and

services for those exper experiencing

homelessness and finally if the

recommended if the recommended

conditions of approval are adopted the

proposed project will result in

improvements to the site that will

provide benefits to the greater Public

Welfare including formalized access for

green belt users improved trail

conditions and maintenance of existing

natural and ecological

buffers thank you and the applicants um

again state your name your address but

first we SAR you in can you raise your

right hand

please testim okay ready testimony

you're about to deliver will be truth

and whole truth yes yes thank you very

much okay so we'll start with thank you

my name my name is Bruce Gman uh

Caldwell and Kars I'm Council for the

project uh 36 uh 31 North Front Street

uh Harrisburg

PA leis Menendez director of

construction for the homeless veterans

program 70 Oakwood Avenue Upper mon

Clair New Jersey 07043

I'm Justin hul I'm with the Tuttle to

Towers Foundation I reside at 5488 Clan

mil Court Alexandria Virginia 22315

thank you thank

you um start call Project please well

thank you um the purpose of the uh

project as you see from an artist

conception is to build a community uh

for uh up to 80 uh homeless veterans on

land um next to the uh Riverside Office

Center where the pendot uh facilities

are

located um and uh Mr hul is going to

briefly describe to you the foundation

and uh its uh work with these types of

projects take this m off so I can get to

it

sorry um just want to thank the board uh

thank you chairman for hearing us

tonight this is really excited excited

to be back in the city of Harrisburg our

foundation started September 11th 2001

most everyone in this room knows where

we were that day um I wanted to give you

a perspective of the reason the

foundation started it was because of

firefighter Steven Siller um I know the

chairman you have a perspective of what

Manhattan was like that day but from his

perspective he had just finished a night

shift the night before as a u New York

City firefighter he was on his way to

Long Island to play golf with his

brothers um

the first plane hits the first Tower as

Steven is on the other side of the

Brooklyn Battery Tunnel he gets a call

on the radio he Parks his truck outside

the tunnel the tunnel gate has already

been closed for security reasons Steven

straps on 60 pounds of gear on his back

and runs through the tunnel back to the

towers hence the name tunnel to towers

and Steven's what I'm wearing tonight uh

Steven would later die that day in the

South Tower saving lives um his older

brother Franks Frank s our founder that

night their entire family sat together

and said what do we do about this

thousands of Orphans have been made

today thousands of families have been

affected they start the foundation for

the past 20 years we've been building

homes for catastrophically injured

veterans uh Goldstar families uh Fallen

First Responders thousands throughout

the country um over a dozen in the

Commonwealth here and um I believe we've

um helped over 100 families in the

Commonwealth to date through our

programs about two years ago the

foundation decided to start tackling the

issue of homeless veterans at our

country there's there's there's around

33,000 um this brings us here today um

we used a two-pronged approach to tackle

this problem we're building

infrastructure like this throughout the

country uh we're operational we have a

building that's been operating since

last year in Houston we broke ground in

Atlanta about three weeks ago this past

Saturday I was in the greater Tampa area

breaking ground on a project just like

this um and besid besides the

infrastructure that you see here which

is the apartment building surrounded by

the Comfort homes the entire first floor

which you'll see later is our Supportive

Services so as a foundation we're not

just showing up and building the

infrastructure and then leaving the

entire first floor will be supportive

services both nationally and locally to

help support the veterans in the area

um this problem is is something that we

don't want to own we want to work with

the city to make this problem go away um

this project would uh inevitably free up

several hundred beds throughout the

Harrisburg area which I know there's

already a shortage of um and uh you know

at the end of the day uh at some point

in time each person who ends up living

here raised their right hand and pledge

to serve this country and ultimately up

up and two give up their life um they

were defending our homes your homes our

homes my home on our behalf and we

didn't even know they were doing it

we owe them at least this much and

that's where our foundation comes in

we're 100% privately funded we're not

asking the city or the Commonwealth for

$1 and um at the end of the day uh it's

about changing these people's lives

making this city better and being a

great partner with you guys and I just

want to thank you I'll turn it back over

to Bruce uh we can answer any questions

you may

have thank you Jus um so in order to do

this project

um two uh we requested two uh approvals

the first is as Mr Knight explained

we're not sure exactly which use you

would like to Define it as um the

veterans Outreach project was defined as

Supportive Housing um but technically

was not one of the uses otherwise

specified in the code for the riverfront

district and so you approved a special

exception uh for their use and we're

requesting a similar uh special

exception uh that exception is not

contrary to any of the uh prohibitions

in the code um and is uh not for um uh

is not adjacent to Parcels zoned as open

space Recreation and uh is not in an

historical

district

um so uh I'd now like to ask Mr Menendez

uh a bunch of questions to uh

demonstrate that we qualify for this

special

exception um would you please explain uh

pedestrian and vehicle uh access to the

property in and

out yes uh I'm going to switch to the

original sketch plan that was submitted

to

you so our proposed uh access to the

site is hinged on the the current access

road that exists across the property

that uh provides access to the vula site

as well as the intermediate property

between us this property exists all the

way out to what they we call Front

Street all the way out to Sycamore which

is a private right away uh and provides

access for us on a limited basis our

tenants uh which on on by by majority do

not have vehicles uh

and access to the site would be through

that road for limited deliveries access

for service personnel and access for

volunteers who work at our

facilities would you please explain what

the uh character of the uh surrounding

areas the neighborhoods is uh there are

no uh residential neighbor there is no

residential neighborhood in the area uh

it's open space we have the river on one

side of our property and the railroad on

the other

side in addition we've got a vacant

piece of property on on one side and

another property which is uh the pend do

property which we neither one which we

control would you briefly describe the

off street parking arrangement for the

property so we've uh we we've looked at

it in many different ways we we want to

be cognizant of the requirements that we

that we need to comply with we've been

working with staff to determine what

would be the best mix of parking uh

we've tried to maximize it through our

civil engineering analysis and have come

up with the concept of this ghost

parking to increase the number of

parking that we can not to not preferred

uh because we're building parking

capacity that is not really necessary

and we're creating paved areas that are

really uh impervious at and and do not

help the overall uh drainage of the

project would you describe the open

space and the setbacks of the property

please uh as far as the open space and

and setbacks we've looked at those and

we comply with whatever requirements we

we are need to comply with would you

describe uh if there's going to be any

um buffering planting screening planting

fenses things like that there will be

there is a fence that is planned around

the entire facility uh or Village I

should say we don't we don't call them

facilities we call them Villages uh the

natural topography we're looking right

now to balance it and try to reuse the

number of uh some of the buffering trees

that are there our intent is to maintain

a a level of security and privacy which

we believe is important for our village

to maintain that sense of uh of

ownership and uh peace that we believe

is important for rehabilitation so we

will be uh working with the the arborist

to develop a plan uh landscape plan and

mitigation plan of the existing trees uh

we can't promise that all the trees will

remain uh there will be affect they will

some that we be affected but we do plan

on a comprehensive landscape plan as

well as a color beautification plan that

comes along with our landscaping around

the different buildings and along the uh

uh the entrance and other parts of the

site with the colors that have become

synonymous with our

program will the project create any

significant public safety hazard toxic

substances explosives fires none other

than your occasional barbecue that may

happen but again that is controlled we

do not uh condone open Flames we do not

have any of that we don't have any toxic

uh materials uh we have no gases or

anything that would store in this

facility so for all intents and purposes

it's an inert site uh it has uh anything

that we would use if anything would

require permit we would certainly have

to come before the county for any kind

of permit or the city would you please

discuss the uh anticipated traffic

impact of this project uh we believe

it's limited uh again because of the uh

low OCC uh occupancy ownership of

vehicles and the the quantity of staff

that comes in and out on a daily basis

we we've we've come to be in an area of

roughly between 15 and 20 uh so it's

something that is manageable with the

existing parking that we're planning um

as far as access to the to the RADS like

I said it would be through the uh

private RightWay that we've been granted

through the pend do property well um the

project generate any particular odors

any noxious odors not that we're aware

of I mean uh we are not not producing

anything ourselves we're do we do no

manufacturing we do no other sort of uh

uh events or anything in that on that

property that would generate any kind of

odors is any late night or early morning

uh hours of operation expected other

than a 247 residential Community uh we

do have 247 uh uh staff on site as well

as uh now there there is a curfew I mean

there are times where tenants will

eventually who will have to retire to

their units they still are able to stay

within their facility but uh we do not

encourage any outside uh uh activity

Beyond a certain time and we would

obviously have to comply with the

ordinances of of

Harrisburg is any outdoor lighting uh

plan that would uh affect uh nearby

residential areas um as I said before

there are no residential areas other

than our our our friends on vopa uh we

do have a buffer between them but as

part of our development plan we do have

internal lighting for the roadway

sidewalks uh it's it's an active site we

do encourage the the veterans to use the

site uh they do have uh the services

within the building so uh they would

there is interaction between the main

building and the perimeter uh Village so

there the lighting would have to be

something that is conducive to that

environment and we will go through an

extensive photometric anal Anis to make

sure that the not only that the streets

are properly lit but the sidewalks are

safe that they can walk through has any

area been designated for loading area

and a refuse area we have identified a

an area on the north side of the

building to uh locate our our refug

location we do have access to the end of

the building into for any type of

delivery but that that's all still under

study and uh we will eventually come to

a conclusion on our final site plan are

there any Wetlands Wetlands on T to's

property uh we not that we're building

on I mean there are there is the River

on the edge there is a Swale on the on

the railroad side uh nothing to say that

they are wetlands as as defined but any

type of mitigation during construction

any kind of soil erosion or

sedimentation control would have to be

in effect uh after construction

obviously all the Disturbed are would

have to be stabilized and uh the the

site would uh would perform as as

designed how will you connect to

utilities on the property uh utilities

are existing as we know it there are

there's a force main along the emergency

access road uh there is water down the

emergency access road and there's an

existing or new electric line that's

been extended following the access road

to feed our vopa neighbor

uh and uh so we would be tying into that

electric we've we've made discussions

with the uh or started discussions with

the electric within ourselves as far as

the uh electrical engineer to determine

what that load is and how to begin the

conversation with the uh utility

companies to make those connections uh

sanitary we've worked on the elevations

of our existing of our new buildings to

make sure that we're able to connect to

the existing infrastructure that's in

place

uh same with water which is a little bit

more of an easier lift but there is

capacity there not only to feed the main

building but the individual

homes will there be any signage uh on

the property we do have a prototype

signage package as many uh

uh companies have uh we do have

something that we would like to place on

the building we do have an entrance

Monument sign to identify the entrance

to the property with the address uh we

also have a monument that which uh

commemorates those folks that had either

fallen and we've helped in uh in the

state of Pennsylvania and we do this on

all our sites uh which is a place of uh

of of reflection we provide benches we

provide a landscaped area where you can

come and uh uh reflect on the loss of a

loved one or wherever you may be at that

point in time you're able to come and uh

uh and spend some quality time there if

there is any public signage um will it

comply with applicable

requirement uh as far as public sign of

course we would have to comply with the

local ordinance uh if there are some

areas where we can find some common

ground we need to uh look at variance we

would certainly come uh again and ask

for permission or at least consideration

of what we may be proposing will any

buildings be demolished for the project

uh there are no standing buildings other

than remnants of existing buildings so

there are some foundations there are

some walls some we may use some we may

take out uh some of the existing

foundations will definitely have to come

out uh but there are no vertical

structures to think of that we have to

remove would you please explain the

purpose of the Comfort home so the

Comfort home is something that's unique

something that we're very proud of uh

we've spent quite a bit of time

developing a prototype uh that is

specifically

larger than a tiny home larger than

what's considered a micro home so we

call them Comfort homes they're

approximately 14 foot wide by 35 foot

long so we have found that that

footprint gives us the opportunity to uh

develop a a uh uh a workable living room

Center uh kitchen area with a bathroom

and a bedroom all with all being ADA

Compliant and we've spoken about the uh

uh visitability capabilities of the

building this is something that went

along went was part of our analysis uh

that we found that many of the veterans

questions was what happens to my friend

what happens to my buddy if he comes to

my house how does he I might be able to

get in because not every veteran is is

uh physically challenged many are and so

the the but are able to use steps

they're able to use ramps so all our

homes are fitted out with a ramp whether

you need it or not and you may not need

it today you may need it in the future

or a future tenant may need it so we

design them with the ramp we designed

them all Ada accessible and from a

visitor's perspective if they have

somebody that can come over the house

will accommodate the uh the visitor as

well why were the Comfort homes designed

for one story

only we design there are many factors

that go into this is for a single living

they're not for multiple uh

occupants uh we we we size it so that

one individual could have a could have a

a visitor but two people cannot live in

this and they could but it would be

rather uh tight and not conducive for

that so the living was for an individual

that can live on a ground floor easily

accessible to the outside compliant all

our casework is uh uh ADA Compliant if

somebody needs the additional need to

approach the cabinets it's designed so

that cabinet can be removed and the

actual panel put in place so that they

can access the uh uh the unit one story

uh because once again there are folks

that are physically challenged the

Second Story would create a hardship on

or an economic burden on our model uh

having to build a vertical

Transportation uh system meaning a

either an elevator or some sort of a

chairlift to go from the ground floor to

the second floor in this particular

scenario we have 20 units that means

that there are 20 elevators or 20 chair

lists that would have to go in place so

from our model and our economic approach

to duplicating this model it makes sense

to be on a single level now the

proportions of the house is where it

leads us to the height where a house

single floor house that's too high may

not look proper and the spaces

internally we went through the volume

study of the inside of the space to

create the two end units with a vaed

ceiling that gives you the sense of

height without the house being much

higher than what it is transportation

issues go into into uh our our model to

determine if it can be transported

especially if we're dealing with the

Northeast we're dealing with

infrastructure that's rather old bridges

are lower and so in order to transport

these houses we have to maintain a

certain height

restriction would you have considered

this project if uh you had to construct

a 36t high building or higher not for

the homes the homes would not be part of

this project if it's something that we

would have to build uh we would not be

pre-manufacturing it would be cost

prohibitive to build a multi-story

building uh and then bring it to the

site uh it just doubles and sometimes

triples the amount of Transportation

costs because of the number of modules

that it would take to build a mul story

building what physical characteristics

of the property uh are conducive to this

project um the site is very attractive

in the sense that is the same for the

same reason that our friends at boa said

this is this is a site for us it's

Serene it's set aside it's got a

beautiful it's got a view of of the uh

of the of the river it's secluded we're

able to control access through and

around around our

property uh and that's important to us

not only for security uh but being able

to live your life in a level of security

that you otherwise would not have been

experiencing for the whatever time you

have spent outside either living on the

street or jumping from home to home

there's a certain sense of security that

doesn't exist it takes time to build and

we believe that this environment with

creating that solid itude is something

that's important for the veteran to uh

get a get a start to Rehabilitation and

be able to uh either reintegrate back

into

society buy their own home you can stay

here as long as you like our preference

is if you're in living in our multistory

building that you are a younger veteran

you're able to get yourself on your feet

and you're able to reintegrate back into

society the home on the other hand is

something that we afford the older

veterans the 55 and over veteran some of

these veterans dating back to the

Vietnam War are veterans that may not be

reintegrating back into society anytime

soon uh you may be a candidate for this

particular uh house you can stay here

for the rest of your

life uh so these are important in

certain aspects of our overall program

but there are certain UH

responsibilities that they are required

to adhere to one of them is

uh we have no tolerance for you getting

into into trouble that's something that

it's not uh part of our program we have

a zero tolerance on drug use alcohol use

and any environment that may potentially

create that outside

our uh our our village is something that

is of tremendous concern

for I would also point out some of the

factors that Mr kn noted in his report

that I would uh suggest the board can

consider including the fact that this

site remained

undeveloped for many many years it was

undesirable it was a vacant industrial

land formerly steel mill um and access

to this property was not created until

veterans Outreach created that access uh

road across the uh uh eastern border um

uh and finally that uh this variance

really is in furtherance of the proposed

use of the property that is

accommodating less than able people in

accessible

facilities I don't have anything further

to say if there are any questions we'd

be glad to answer

them

um anybody from giv in the a audience is

supporting

you

Roger I thanks for the time I'm John

Hickey I am a board member at veterans

Outreach of Pennsylvania my address is

3901 Pam a drive mechanics group

Pennsylvania

17050 um we did want to come um Express

support for our sort of brothers and

arms here in terms of the what what is

being proposed um uh veterans Outreach I

can tell you uh I've been on the board

for a couple years the dream has

uh if you weren't able to get down and

see the grand opening the dream has been

realized there are currently four and

we're supposed to get a fifth resident

today so we have taken people from um

the streets of Harrisburg and they're

currently living in our Therapeutic

Community um that Community is um going

to be filled for forever basically with

very fragile um individuals many of whom

are suffering from PTSD and other

physical disabilities um brought on by

their service and uh that you know we

will event have 15 folks our program is

a therapeutic model so it is not

intended unlike tunnel to Towers it is

not intended to be um transitional or

even permanent long term is to be to get

people well enough to move to phase two

um it was just

uh God's grace I don't know what what we

call it but it was just uh you know good

fortune that um we found out about

tunnels to towers and we're able to talk

to them about coming here and provide

that phase too of when someone is ready

to leave veterans outre reach and

potentially go you know a couple hundred

yards north and go into a transitional

or even more permanent housing as Lis

said about um for people that are over

55 and may not be um you know it may not

be an option to go back into the

workforce or reintegrate into a a more

day-to-day societal living so um we just

like I said are just here support them

and and say what a great uh and and you

know ask for that you approve their

request it's a partnership I mean we are

uh creating the John said this is

something for them it's therapeutic

they're going to get to a point where

then we can accept them in our permanent

housing facility and hopefully they can

go on from there as they maintain their

progress to move on and back into

society thank you I'm Douglas Hill and

I'm the president of the Capital Area

green belt asso Association I'm a

resident at 709 Green Street in

Harrisburg excuse me and with your

permission we have a sketch that we'd

like to furnish you uh relative to the

issue of placement the relocation of the

green belt uh in uh relationship to this

project excuse me Mr chairman I'm going

to ask in what capacity Mr Hill is

testifying he is not uh an abing

property owner so I'm going to object to

uh his testimony as uh not having

standing um I certainly want the board

to hear from him but for the record

Mr U first he would have to be sworn in

but also um you're here on behalf of an

organization that's correct correct uh

okay that would also I mean is affected

impacted by this there's no question

okay yep but if you would rather me

speak at a separate time that's fine no

no this is fine uh just be sworn in

that's what I mean testimony you're

about to give is true what truth it is

thank you I

apologize thank you and I appreciate the

opportunity to appear uh so the capary

green belt Association is a nonprofit uh

we are entirely volunteer run uh we

exist to maintain promote and grow the

green belts as a recreational use and

active transportation out and as an

ecological amenity for the city uh I'm

appearing here tonight because uh the

proposed development is squarely on the

uh historic Route of the capary green

belt uh it the green belt also passed

through part of what became developed as

vpa uh when that was in front of you

back in

2021 uh we uh relinquished all right to

use there recognizing the specific need

and the configuration of that property

and the representation was made that we

would then be able to have the

opportunity to work out an alternate

route for the trail in the balance of

the remaining property uh because this

is the property that's immediately

adjacent to the Dolphin County General

Authority and is where the trail enters

this uh particular lands uh we felt it

particularly important to be here

tonight to present these comments uh so

the um to be clear though at the outset

I I need to be very that we did support

vpa uh we are so glad to see that

they've opened and the success they're

having so far uh and we do support this

project we recognize the very distinct

needs that we have in our community and

in fact for that matter by extension we

support what we understand will be a

third different take on uh serving this

population uh that's going to be

proposed for for the intervening

property uh we we uh recognize that need

and we don't want anything we say

tonight to needlessly delay or cause any

problems for this uh this proposal to

proceed uh to give you a little bit of

background on this particular parcel so

the green belt has been in existence for

more than for about a 100 years uh it

did not the intent was to circle the

city but it wasn't quite able to do that

and one of the particular problem areas

was here in South Harrisburg uh when the

Phoenix Iron and Steel Corporation I

guess it was closed in 1961 and then

began demolishing the facilities that

created an opportunity for the path to

go through there and with the permission

of the land owners at the time we were

allowed to come in and develop the trail

uh we had on an all volunteer basis uh

people that went through with equipment

that we purchased with grants and other

uh monies uh we moved better than 50,000

cubic yards of debris uh we did uh

grading leveling and we did the

construction of the trails and they've

been in use for 30 years uh since we

began that back in the mid

1990s

um excuse me uh I will as I'm saying

this make acknowledgement or emphasize

the point that we had a written

permission to use the property we did

not have uh a license or an easement or

RightWay and so because of that uh both

the city's comprehensive plan and your

own zoning or

uh call for completion of the trail uh

in in other words resolving those

linkages so that we have a permanent

Trail through there and in a couple of

other places where there are private

properties uh I'll also mention uh if

it's helpful that we do not uh own any

part of the trail most of the trail is

actually owned by the municipalities and

in addition Harrisburg uh it touches

penber Pang suera and ssan townships

uh and where it crosses private lands

where we've arranged our easements or

license agreements that are then

recorded in the name of the host

municipality and that's done for a

couple different reasons most notably

because that makes them uh a part of the

recreational Transportation structure of

those municipalities it also opens them

to uh Patrol and supervision by the

safety forces of the respective

municipalities and it makes them

eligible for state and fed federal

grants and then also transfers uh

liability under the tort claims act to

the municipality for the users of the

trip um I mentioned that we are meent

that we are part of the comprehensive

plan and Zoning plan we are also part of

the work that Tri county is doing on the

Harrisburg active transportation system

and in fact we're a key a key to that

given uh the length of the trail close

to 20 miles as well as another six miles

or so of uh spur Trails uh and uh we are

also proud to say that uh we are part of

the national 911 Trail and if you're not

familiar with that that is a cycle Trail

that's part uh roadway part uh secured

Trails but it goes from Shanksville up

to New York City down to Arlington and

back in a large triangular configuration

with side routes out to Gettysburg and

to the city of Pittsburgh I think

there's more as well here in Harrisburg

um because of some configuration of the

highway issues up around dolphin they

come down Route 15 they cross the Harvey

Taylor bridge and then they're on the

trail from the Harvey Taylor Bridge all

the way down through this specific site

to Cameron Street and then at Cameron

Street they go down through Steelton

connect to the Inola hybra Trail and on

out uh from

there uh we have been engaged with

discussions uh with representatives of

TT and we think that has been going well

we've uh reviewed a number of

Alternatives with them uh and what we're

presenting to you tonight does not

represent any level of agreement is just

one of the Alternatives we've discussed

but this is our preferred alternative

for several reasons and as you will see

we what we did we took the sketch plan

that they furnished to you I think

that's an exhibit B1 uh and we

sketched we sketched on there the um

in red is where the trail currently runs

or historically has run and then we

sketched in green uh the proposed

alternative you see the red where it

runs diagonally through the property

obviously there's no way that could be

supported based on their use nor would

we suggest that it be uh and instead we

uh continue the trail on down the

emergency access road uh which also the

utilities and then uh propose crossing

their property at the southern boundary

uh where it abuts the land that's yet to

be developed and then connects back up

uh where the trail crossed over up at

the upper

end uh the we believe that the trail

given that the a paved width would be

optimally about 12 feet would fit fit

conveniently within the sidey yard

setback uh the sketch plan that was

provided for you the only thing

literally it will be affected the sketch

plan shows the six- foot fence R running

through that southern sidey yard to

accommodate the trail that would have to

be moved into the property uh but it

still is at a respectable distance from

uh any of the Comfort homes that that

run along that particular part uh of the

property I'll mention too that we did

look at other

Alternatives uh in our discussions uh

they suggested to us that instead of

crossing at the southern boundary we

cross at the northern boundary and and

up there staying on the lands of the

Dolphin County General Authority and

then on pick up on the far side running

along the new access road that has gone

in for vopa and then connecting at the

same place that you see going up to the

railroad

bridge we did explore that with the do

count General Authority uh they

presented the notion to their board and

we were soundly rejected uh they said we

are welcome to maintain the peace that

we have across their property by license

agreement that runs along the river and

actually connects uh to this eer to the

emergency access route but to accomodate

the

trail excuse me uh along their southern

boundary on their lands would require us

to grade two 300 foot long slopes in

order to achieve because of the

elevations to achieve handicap usability

and it would ultimately require their

loss of about 43 spaces in their

employees lot and so on that basis they

said it simply wouldn't be acceptable it

wouldn't be doable and so that's when we

returned to this discussion the only

other alternative that had been placed

on the table was to maintain the uh

route that we're currently using for

detour which staff mentioned to you

previously and that's going out Sycamore

Street uh right now The Detour goes down

Cameron there was a discussion of moving

it to a couple Parcels that are on this

side of the the railroad overpass if

you're familiar with that uh but uh as

the city intimated in their opening

comments uh there are some design issues

both with the vertical curve of the

bridge and the placement of the supports

for the railroad uh that create

significant problems with sight

distances uh and so would render it

unsafe for both pedestrian and cycle

traffic and so that's why we're looking

at this this particular

route uh as to uh benefits uh we uh it

it's been discussed that it would

provide pedestrian and active

Transportation access to the city for

the TTT residents uh it also we know

from Trail use uh can uh provide some

therapeutic benefit as well uh in

addition to them being on property it

gives them access uh to the more

extended uh route of the trail uh I also

point out that uh this would afford an

opportunity to uh make a connection a

pedestrian connection to the adjoining

property and then the full way down to

um to U veterans veterans Grove uh the

on the emergency access road uh right

now uh that is U Crush Stone rolled uh

and it aligns with uh where the

emergency eress is on the vocal property

uh and we think that would give uh good

pedestrian access the whole way down

I'll also mentioned that one of the

conditions you placed and was included

uh in the uh subdivision plan for vpa

was that they were to have a publicly

accessible Viewpoint uh on the northwest

corner of their property they have

installed the pad for that uh but they

do not have as yet a means to provide

access and uh they represented to us

that that's something they would have to

negotiate at least with the adjacent

property owner and so by allowing the

access

this way on on the emergency access road

I think would fulfill that requirement

as well and then the last thing I'll

I'll reemphasize too is that this

because this is part of the national 911

Trail provide a wonderful opportunity uh

to synthesize and recognize both uh both

the veterans who have served as well as

uh the 9911 Trail itself uh we think

there would be a great opportunity to

for example place a marker in that area

for those who use the trail uh so that

they would understand the important work

that TT is providing as well as vpa and

the the memory that we're invoking by

the use of the 9911

Trail uh last thing I want to comment on

is

safety and you've heard it expressed

although not in as much detail as we've

had in our discussions that uh there is

importance in segregating the population

from any potential for

uh access to drugs alcohol and so on uh

the property is sketched does have a

six- foot fence surrounding it uh

planting buffer is proposed as well we'

be happy to work with them to improve

that in any additional way uh that might

be uh

suitable uh but I do want to emphasize

that this type of recreation and active

Transportation Route uh is demon

demonstrably and I do mean by empirical

study uh demonstrably shown to encourage

safety and to discourage Bad actors in

fact I was just on a call this morning

uh with the rails National Rails to

Trails Association and that was one of

the topics of discussion that

universally uh it improves property

values and improves uh the nature and

character of the use nearby uh I also

mention uh and I I may be misstating

here because I'm

not closely allied with TTT but the a

couple of the projects they've mentioned

Atlanta and Houston I Believe are

conversions of existing hotel properties

and those are obviously in commercial

settings and so have typical heavy

Public Access uh in immediate proximity

and so I think that uh that this uh

doesn't pose any difficulty that cannot

be overcome and last uh relative to uh

this point is that the other route that

had been proposed was along the northern

and Eastern boundaries and so

essentially covers the same U touch

points same uh length of proximity as

going along the west and the South so

it's materially no different going this

route than going the other one that they

had suggested to us last point is that

uh even though we are nonprofit We Are

non-staff we do have significant

capacity for fundraising uh we already

have in the six figures that we believe

are committed uh to uh helping develop

the relocation for the trail in this

area and we have other applications

pending as well so uh with that uh I

will simply conclude by saying that uh

We've made a comparable presentation

with the Planning Commission uh we agree

with the recommendation that they made

to you and we support um moving the uh

moving the proposal

thank Youk Mr chairman sir I would like

to note for the record that first of all

um three days after the uh Planning

Commission hearing um the Executive Vice

President of the foundation Mr Hill and

a representative of the um National

greenbell Trail were already

coordinating and and talking number one

number two I would point out that any

requirement

that uh the uh T the foundation give use

of its land to the greenb would

constitute an uncompensated and

therefore unconstitutional taking of

private

property just just briefly I will affirm

that we had we did have the conversation

with their National and and we do intend

to continue this as a good good faith

negotiation we are not asking for a

taking I okay um first of all before we

get to that is there anybody

else um anybody else uh in the audience

that hasn't spoken that wants to speak

on

this

y uh Department any questionss about

this or or

concerns there was much discussion at

the Planning Commission regarding the

the board's amendment to condition

number

three um they change the opening of that

condition to the applicant shall

coordinate with Capital Area Green Belt

regarding the retention of the green

belt across the property uh this will

retain a recreational amenity for the

community at large will provide a

walking bike

route for residents to connect to the

surrounding communities and the city

overall as the applicant notes many will

not own vehicles and will maintain an

ecological buffer along the river um

frankly this the law Bureau is concerned

that the language that shell coordinate

uh is frankly a government overstatement

overreach which while we would certainly

defend an allegation of a taking it

creates an issue that doesn't exist at

the moment the government is not in the

business of of telling land owners they

must enter into an agreement with

another party and I reviewed this with

the mayor this afternoon uh she was in

agreement that the city's not in a

position to be discussing the taking on

behalf of the green belt um she's

looking for a negotiated solution as

well of the parties I think everyone

takes the parties at their word there's

a good faith negotiation undergoing It's

Complicated by the location by the

multiple property owners by the utility

easements by the road that was put in

and not getting to a solution yet uh uh

two of the entities nearby are

government entities that have their own

interest one at the county level one at

the state level um so so it is in

calling for an agreement um it's just

their parties aren't there yet um I

think the mayor's office has probably

been in 25 discussions in the last two

years trying to come to a resolution for

everybody um but but you know I will

note

this is a zoning hearing I don't know if

a soil sample has been taken yet for

this property to figure out where the

building can and can't go whether the

next property is surveyed to know where

those buildings can and can't go so

there are a lot of moving parts for land

that was long abandoned and that was

industrial um but but we believe the

original language or the original

proposal uh should be returned from the

law Bureau to avoid any leaving open a

question that the government intends to

investor right that does not exist at

this time right and let me just okay

so you know once again it has to go

through you know obviously Land

Development and that type of thing so

whether any of the plans are are really

where it's going to be regardless right

yep

um and right that was essentially put in

there the the the shell after the after

the Planning Commission I understand at

least you know initially the planning

Bureau did put you know should may have

thought shall but regardless you know

it's

uh it's something that they certainly

you know you know will discuss but

understood um and attorney grman y

understood as you know as well and

that's what I intend to um advise this

board on what I you know my I point out

that the language that uh it will

retain

similarly uh raises

issue where and that was in condition

three I see Will retain recreational

amenities that's what your question and

and I think that just took on that

different meaning when the sentence was

modified sitting at in that room yes

right

yeah right wouldn't be like anybody's

REM removing anything it's it can

technically get down to the word of of

what is used and the legal implications

of that so that's what we will right

need to discuss so well I was just going

to say as the person who wrote the uh

wrote that condition uh this will retain

did not refer was not connected to the

sh coordinate it was more like uh the

presumption that the green belt was

maintained across the property in

whatever format it would retain that so

it was more like a description of a

future condition with the presumption

that a solution would be found not to be

connected necessarily to the shiping

okay understood je most the green belt

the maintenance of it doesn't it's

basically volunteer stop me if I'm wrong

it's the it may abut or may cross

different municipalities and territories

but the support of of it is by a private

basically a nonprofit private

organization correct or wrong uh that's

that's correct um I and perhaps the um

individuals Mr Hill can clarify further

but um as far as I know they are the

primary um maintenance and uh uh

organization that uh does clearances

when trees fall for

example we that that is one of our

primary missions um we do receive some

financial support So for for example the

city provides us some funding on an

annual basis to do invasive weeds and

some other things like that we also

qualify and have pulled in millions of

dollars in dcnr pendot uh de and other

grants to do various Improvement

projects uh we work in Partnership we

with susqu Township where they just

repaved a small portion of the road

because of invasion of roots so it's a

mix of things but yes um a study done

last year by the Pennsylvania economy or

Pennsylvania environmental Council found

that we were offloading a couple million

dollars a year in what would otherwise

be Municipal maintenance of a

recreational facility by the volunteer

work that we

do s I'm just letting okay Excuse Me

Maybe I have a question and before we

get to the question answer it's based

off of the conversation um you've had a

copy of this right you've seen this plan

yes and currently the green belt crosses

is the proposed area for the uh the

houses that you're building there the uh

Comfort homes it cuts through that area

proposed but it currently right now cuts

through it no the red

line currently um the uh Green Belt uh

access

stops at the uh Northern property line

because of the construction fencing that

was uh installed originally for veterans

Outreach its licens area across the

pendot property also stops at that

border the original the actual greenbell

Trail before veterans Outreach that

cross trail nobody is really certain

about the origin of

um it's circled around the southern Baye

um Green Belt may have maintained it but

um the original property

uh which goes back to uh field Mill um

had a trail around it so there's no Sur

no surveyor mapping for that are for the

green belt at all that's there there was

not uh that was both pieces were carved

out by volunteers with the permissions

that we were granted and really both

pieces were part of the trail uh the one

that was the longer Loop down through

what's now vopa and then this uh angle

which uh has is popularly called the

shortcut for obvious reasons and it's

correct as well it's currently closed

based on the construction that actually

that closure actually occurred last year

when uh the utility work began for gopa

and we've been using the uh detour out

on Sycamore Street since

okay the second piece of this that I was

going to ask with their proposed uh

realignment it cuts through the bottom

part of your pro of the property in

question um

I may get in trouble for asking this

what's the issue again but from

collaborate collaborative standpoint

what would be the issue if they're if

they're going to reroute it to the

border of your property of those

property and now I can understand the

question of liability but you're being

reliev of liability security is one

issue but it doesn't solve the problem

because the belt needs access

access to

cross some property yes and it needs

access at the Top If we go back to the

sketch plan which is under I think it's

underneath that no it's on the on the

easel even

if they were to get across here that

property up there to the bridge is not

owned

by the will not be owned by the

foundation that's another property

owner so who's not at the table here so

giving them access here alone doesn't

solve the

problem and even if even if access was

given on the foundation's property once

they get up here they still are not

connected to the

brid exist existing have cut cross that

property

the they have no legal right to that

understand so even if they are they are

not it is untenable to have a trail

across a community like this but even if

even if they were given these rights

they're still is a piece unconnected up

there so either all the property owners

have to get an

agreement

or it's just not

viable I would also point out that

currently people are

accessing that bridge and that through

the right of way across

pendot onto the access road the veterans

access road and they're forcing their

way across that bridge all without any

legal

right if I may Mr chairman on a couple

of those points uh first uh we con seeed

that there is a small tail and you see

it on our sketch that little squiggle

and then up over to the railro bridge

and that still does need to be resolved

that's correct we're just in that odd

circumstance where we have no one to

negotiate with on that remainder because

the intent is that that property is

being conveyed uh I don't know the

status of that agreement and so we don't

know who with whom were're to talk

however as we were engaged in Prior

discussions and where the

original where the original proposal was

to take it along here and along here

that same issue remained because it's

still off of that

property

uh and then the other point that I had

raised before too is whether we're in

proximity right here and here or right

here and right here see almost the

material were up against the fence of

the this property in either case and

so the danger the security issue is

materially no different uh in either

location it's the amount of

exposure two Mr chairman I'd like to

um state that the issues before this

board are zoning issue only zoning issue

well and I would point out that the

retention of the green bill is actually

a zoning issue because it is in section

73014 uh 7 of the zoning code A7 of the

zoning code to increase opportunities

for open space and recreational

opportunities including the completion

of the Capital Area green belt and to

provide additional access to these

amenities for all neighborhoods so it

actually is a zoning issue to ensure

that at the very least we're not

severing the green belt which would be

in direct contravention to the language

in the zoning code nobody is feing the

green belt there are alternate roots for

the green belt I was going to ask the

Law Department one more question um as

you said no one they've if the green

belt currently crosses other people's

land has there ever been an issue raised

because of the green belt the green belt

path in treating with someone else's

property not that I am aware of and

actually think that's an frankly an

academic question at the moment I don't

think one one uh solution because a

piece is missing is not viable you know

it's a who goes first question between

the landowners right it's uh obviously

it's conditioned upon the next property

or excuse me saying that they're an

agreement but if if everyone's waiting

for one of the property owners to say it

it just sits still so so they would have

to rroo it elsewhere from their proposal

if they can't get through right right

but that's their proposal right now and

and again if good faith discussions are

going on you know obviously they won't

be on this property if the other

property owners don't cooperate uh down

the road and no one group can can can

commit the others but the green belt can

negotiate as can the city frankly with

one after the other after the other

because it is in the City Zoning code to

make sure that the belt is complete

thank

you okay so um anybody else from the

audience want because we're going to do

our question answer exercises and I'll

go to the my left Mr

right okay Mr

H good evening um I think one of the

questions I had was answered about the

Comfort home so thank you for that

detailed explanation um I just was

wondering what is the exact concept of

the the ghost parking

spaces the uh ghost parking spaces were

uh spaces that we were looking at to

comply with a larger quantity that we

were struggling with as to what was

required and that is shown in the uh

darker area so these would be set aside

in the event we would need them as a

result of uh uh a requirement which has

not come to

be okay all right thank

you and okay so I've got some

questions I I know it's come up we talk

about the green belt security but let's

talk about security of property okay um

this is the property is located inside

it's Harrisburg so that would

be security concerns would be covered

under HP Harrisburg Police Department

they would actually help Patrol but you

have priv will you have private security

in this

area yeah our facility like I said is TW

monitored

247 uh internally we have a passive uh

uh circuit Clos circuit televis ision

system in Perimeter security that's

monitored uh 365 days a year per uh not

only through video but through Personnel

in the facility the perimeter of the of

the site outside of our building is also

protected by surveillance once again

we're keeping an eye on what's happening

within our uh our fence line we're not

going out outside our fence line to see

what's happening beyond our our our our

line uh the purpose of our security

fence is to make sure that we Define

what that property is and we know who

stays inside our property uh we

certainly not we're trying to keep folks

out we can't control who walks along the

perimeter of our fence who comes across

that bridge who walks across the uh uh

The rway Who Walks across any emergency