Transform Pain & Trauma Into Creative Expression | David Choe

I'm a severe gambling addict. Every

single addiction is gambling addiction.

If you drink and drive, you're gambling.

Addiction is one of those things you

can't apply logic to. People, what are

you running from, Dave? It's like, well,

I'ming running from myself, dude. I

don't want to look in the mirror. I

don't want to see myself. I I hate

myself. So, I'm just running. So, as

long as I'm like doing graffiti, running

from the police, you know, just just

just hopping on a train like like

literal running like literally running

to make sure I'm never

sit still for one second like

what are you doing Dave? I'm playing

drums in a band. I'm you know at a

casino. I'm traveling doing the news for

Vice. I'm painting at this like I I

can't I can't sit still because that

means I have to sit with myself and I I

can't do that. I can't do that.

[clears throat]

I couldn't do that. I couldn't do that.

I can now. Welcome to the Hubberman Lab

podcast where we discuss science [music]

and science-based tools for everyday

life.

[music]

I'm Andrew Huberman and I'm a professor

of neurobiology and opthalmology at

Stanford School of Medicine. My guest

today is David Cho. David Cho is an

artist. He's a highly accomplished

painter, graffiti, and street artist,

writer, podcaster, and television host.

Many of you are perhaps familiar with

David as the guy who famously painted

the original Facebook offices, took

equity for the job, and got rich. Now,

that's a wild story, but David's whole

life journey, what he did prior to and

after that, and what he has overcome

along the way, is a million times

wilder. As he shares today, David grew

up hearing and thinking that he was

destined for greatness, but also hearing

and thinking that he was a total

disgrace. Today, he talks with complete

openness and vulnerability about

addiction, about cycles of success and

failure, and about channeling and

overcoming deep shame. Today's podcast

is unlike any other that I've hosted.

David is wide open about his childhood

abuse, his massive success, then career

setbacks, relapses, and transmuting

every possible emotion into art along

the way. So, no matter who you are,

David's story, and just as importantly,

how he's living right now, how he shows

up on this podcast will change what you

think is possible for you in life. It

will force you to look inward and to use

whatever joy and pain you have inside of

you to be the best human being you can

possibly be. David Cho is, as we say in

science, an N of one, meaning there is

no other like him. Yes, because of his

incredible art, but also for his

willingness to share so openly and

honestly so that others can benefit and

grow. I consider it a true honor and

privilege to host David on this podcast,

and frankly, it's impossible not to love

him. This one is incredibly raw and

honest. It's also full of surprises,

many of which are fun surprises. So,

buckle up. Before we begin, I'd like to

emphasize that this podcast is separate

from my teaching and research roles at

Stanford. It is however part of my

desire and effort to bring zero cost to

consumer information about science and

science related tools to the general

public. In keeping with that theme,

today's episode does include sponsors.

And now for my discussion with David

Cho. David Cho, welcome.

>> Thank you for having me, man.

>> Man, huge longtime fan.

>> Love your art. I've been super inspired

by your YouTube channel. I watch it

sometimes before I do my drawing or I

prepare for a podcast.

>> What are you drawing?

>> Uh, I draw a lot of anatomy on top of

some paintings. So, I do neuroanatomy on

top of some paintings that my friend Tim

Armstrong's been doing.

>> Musician lead.

>> Is it anatomically correct or is it like

exaggerated or is it

>> This is a really good question. So,

>> in essence, it's anatomically correct.

>> Yeah. But around the turn of the last

century, two guys, Kahal and Golgi, won

the Nobel Prize.

>> Yeah.

>> For drawing the nervous system and

showing these things no one had seen

before. And they stripped away

everything except

>> I'm going to paint.

>> I'm going to complain with you.

>> Yeah.

>> I don't like what's happening in your

painting studio.

>> Okay.

>> I'm I'm just from what you said so far,

it's

>> it's not good.

>> Okay.

>> But it's it's good because you did that

and then now we have to we have to strip

that away. We have to get at the core of

it because painting is

um Wait, weren't you in the middle of

complimenting me? Like, keep going.

>> I mean, I I I love your YouTube channel.

I watch it before I prepare podcast and

before I uh paint or draw and I'm back

to drawing a lot now, and I live I

converted an art gallery into a living

space. And somehow I thought that that

would make me uh more inspired, but it

turns out um it does. [laughter]

Um, a lot of things do, but I think the

key with anatomy and trying to teach

science with drawings is can't be too

much detail, can't be too little detail.

Otherwise, people are overwhelmed.

>> It's the best thing for I think

everyone, but for someone like you who

spends a lot of time in your head. I

always say the longest journey you'll

ever take in your life is from your head

to your heart. And to be uh an

intellectual person, you you just live a

lot a lot. you like you try to

rationalize and apply logic to

everything. So painting is not that,

music is not that, creating is not that.

It's just to get to this and so for for

but it sounds just in the little that

you've explained that your painting is

very methodical and which

>> super meticulous. I want to include

every cell type. Yeah.

>> What's your threshold for positive

affirmations? Can I go now? Like you

>> I mean I like to think I have a thick

skin, but

>> All right, let's go. Who knows?

>> No, it's it's all it's all love. Okay.

Um, for anyone who's watching or

listening, this is my first time meeting

Adam.

>> Andrew.

>> All good. [laughter]

>> Yeah. All good. All good. You knew my

last name.

>> You know what? I was thinking about my

friend Adam.

>> All good.

>> That you know that used to skate with. I

think Adam Cone.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. That's I was just thinking like

Yeah. Upper Playground.

>> Yeah. He worked he his dad owns Cone

Shoes

>> in Palto. He wants to reconnect with

you,

>> man. Adam Cron and I grew up together.

>> He had a mini ramp in his backyard. We

hung out. We skateboarded. And then he

started Upper Playground, the Walrus.

>> That's that's that's it, right?

>> He's your homie.

>> I used to work for I did tons of

giraffics for Upper Playground. So

>> Wow.

>> Does anyone call you Andy?

>> Uh my skateboard friends call me Andy.

So yeah,

>> but that's it. Like no one in the

medical like science.

>> Uh not anymore. No, not really.

>> That would have like you you start your

podcast and you do your like I'm Andrew.

Yep. Like I'm going to be all over the

place because I'm nervous being here

right now. I hardly do podcasts anymore.

So, um I'm I'm going to be all over the

place if that it's going to be me. It's

going to be sloppy.

>> This is your canvas, man. Have fun.

>> Well, I'm just meeting you. I already

called you the wrong name, which is

horrible. Um I hate the black. I hate

it. Like

>> the studio. this you with the black

t-shirt, the black mugs, the black like

I don't like it for you, you know, cuz I

used to I used to only wear black

because I was like, ah, I'm a painter.

I'm always dirty. I don't want to like,

you know, you could see the ketchup

stains on my sweater. And it's like,

okay, that's that's fine. But I just um

colors are very important in not just

painting but like the palette for your

house or

you know like um

most people talk about

in the modern age modern man is you know

and I and I I just make [ __ ] up so you

could correct you're like the facts guy

but I I feel like most people human

beings alive today are going to die a

very

uh it's mean to say boring but just the

same death, right? You'll most likely

die laying down in a bed or hospice or

in a hospital bed, you know? It's just

like no one's dying like I know there's

other countries where there's war and

famine, but I'm saying modern cities,

you know, like there's not like a hero's

death, right? So, it's just it's all the

same. And then you just, you know, the

drive here in traffic, it's like

everyone either has a black car or a

white car or a gray car. And then you

get to their house and their house is a

beige or a white and you're just like,

"We only got one of these." You know,

whatever your views on the afterlife

are, but this is it. This is it. Like

this is it. And it's just like people

get mad of like, "Oh, I spilled paint on

the floor. Like I got to scratch." I'm

like, "Paint everything. Paint your

[ __ ] car. Paint Make your My My kids

drew my sweater. It's my favorite, you

know, like

>> I like that sweater

>> you know. So I walk in here and I go,

"Fuck, dude." Like, and I'm projecting

on you now. Like when I wore all black,

it said a lot about where I was at in my

life. And I don't know where you're at

because I'm just meeting you, but it's

like everything is black on black. Like

black on this, black t-shirt, black mug,

black, and it's like white t-shirt. for

my dream my my uh selfishly my dream is

like this podcast would start instead of

saying hey I'm Andrew Huberman like

Stanford scientist that it's just hi I'm

Andy and then like you can you photoshop

like a white t-shirt on

>> I'd wear a white t-shirt

>> I don't know I don't like black for me I

I have hardly ever black clothes anymore

I I want to add as much color because I

I just uh maybe that's the season I am

in my for the the time I'm in. But um

yeah, I I appreciate you saying the nice

stuff. I I never thought I would be a

YouTuber, but that's providing a lot of

joy in my life. And so I want to say to

you, um I'm meeting you for the first

time. I've never seen you clean shaven,

>> but I imagine I mean your beard and

facial hair to me look very cute. You're

very handsome. your voice when I hear

your voice immediately is soothing and I

feel like this is a very kind person

like I once again without having like

now I've met you for like 5 minutes I'm

like oh this guy's super awesome but you

know like these kind of parasocial

relationships where

I could go even I don't know how hard

you want to go today but like it's like

I meet people all the time and then I

meet them and it's like I've already met

you like we've already talked. I don't

know what your views on telepathy and

spirituality and it's like

>> it's just everyone will meet

everything's going to happen the way

it's going to happen and everyone's

going to meet who they need to meet.

It's like all energy, right? You put

this like what you know I could sit

there and go why does Andrew Hubin want

to meet me right now? And it's like well

what am I putting out in the universe

and what is he putting out in the

universe and are do the souls connect in

that way? you know, so I just want I

said if I ever meet him, I just want to

tell him how cute he is, how soothing

and relaxing and like there's something

very um this is the invisible ingredient

in like everything in art is did the

person care, right? Like I don't care

how skilled and crafted whatever like

did the person care and like when you do

stuff in your voice the tone the

frequency that's hitting my my soul is

like oh I don't know everything that

guyy's saying he's using some big words

but I feel like he cares and so I I said

if I ever meet you and um I I know a

little bit from us talking on the phone

but I don't know your whole backstory

but I'm like

also I I project a lot and I I make a

lot of assumptions which I'm that's a

defect that I'm working on. But I just

wanted to say like even though you had a

horrific traumatic childhood, like the

fact that you're here, you're alive, and

that you're doing all this good stuff,

it like it makes me emotional cuz I'm

like I I don't even know you, and I

appreciate what you're doing, and uh

you're still a little bit immature, but

progress, not perfection, right? So, um

I think that's it for now, but I just

wanted to tell you all that because I I

feel that way about you and I I you

know, I like I I'm a big sometimes you

feel stuff and you're like I'll text it

to them or or maybe you know and I just

go no if I feel that I just want to

especially if it's love and positivity.

I know I started by telling you how much

I hate your decor and your interior

decorating but it's because I like you.

Like I wouldn't if I didn't if I like if

I'm like I don't give a [ __ ] about this

guy and I don't want a relationship with

I would never say anything. But I'm like

this I don't know what the science

behind it but being surrounded by this

much black cannot be good, right? It

can't like just you walk you we're

walking into a black hole right now like

I don't know. Anyways, that's that's

what I wanted to say.

>> Oh [snorts and clears throat] man. Well,

I'll take that in. Thank [laughter] you.

Uh lot there. Thank you.

>> Were you able to take it in? Yeah, I was

able to take in some of that. I uh it's

interesting when you call me Andy, it's

it's a different part of my persona

>> just because that names carry a lot and

>> thank you for that. I'm going to take

that in. And um

>> you know the I got this little voice in

my head that's saying uh want to be very

clear. You know, my I had some rough

>> rough aspects in my childhood. I've made

good amends with my parents, so we're

good now. I say that to uh you know uh

for all the the reasons people can

assume. But here's the thing. I knew

somehow that we'd eventually cross

paths. I just didn't know when.

>> Uh so you say the telepathy thing for

me, I was a posttock at Stanford. That

comes after PhD. You do like 5 years.

It's kind of like a residency and uh and

I'm from the South Bay.

>> Mhm.

>> And I didn't want to go back to the

South Bay because as you know, no

disrespect to the South Bay. A lot of

interesting things come out of there,

but it was pretty devoid of the things

that I like. Yeah. Which normally are in

cities like art, live music. It used to

be like that. Grateful Dead were in Palo

Alto. I saw Fugazi play at the at the

edge on California Avenue. There was a

lot of interesting things about Palto,

but it became very uh right angles uh

when the tech industry really exploded

there. And in 2007 when I was a posttock

>> Mhm.

>> was when you were muraling at Facebook.

I learned that later.

>> Yeah.

>> But that was a time when I was back

there for my science career and I was

pretty miserable

>> being close to home again. Honestly, I

didn't want to ever go back there for a

while. It was not healing. It was uh But

when I learned your story

>> about muraling at Facebook and some of

that, I was like, "Oh, there was at

least one other

>> person here who was like in the in the

kind of uh spiritual emotional fight

with what the South Bay is." And then I

realized that I heard an interview with

Ian Mai from Myer Threat

>> and turns out he had been in Palo Alto

because his dad was an academic or

something like that

>> of course

>> and he had skated some of the same

ditches we had. And so there's a history

of

>> people being really frustrated with

being there.

>> Um

>> really good Vietnamese food

>> and is there really?

>> Yeah.

>> Oh the South Bay.

>> Yeah. South Bay.

>> Oh yeah. Castro Street Mountain View.

Yeah. And it's changed a lot. But

>> uh take me back to 2007. I don't know

how you feel about historical stuff.

We're definitely I'm definitely down to

time travel and time jump and all that,

but because

>> my I'm older. I'm 49 and my attention

span is just completely fried.

>> I'm going to I'll just say right now I'm

going to get a lot of dates wrong. Like

I'm not like two, you know, things

people are like that, you know, like

>> 2007 was when the Facebook offices were

what kids from the South Bay call the

the neck of University Avenue right

before it goes under the train tracks.

As soon as you're on the other side of

the train tracks, Cal Train,

>> it becomes Palm Drive and it's up to

Stanford. And so those offices now are

Palunteer.

>> Yeah.

>> Which catches a lot of heat for other

reasons, but those offices right as you

go under the train tracks for us

>> there was a curb cut right there and

there was a board slide thing. And so

for the skateboarders, it was one thing,

but then that was Facebook offices.

>> And years later, I heard

David Cho was muring at Facebook. So how

did that come to I'm going to I'm going

to be uh like very sloppy like I said

and it's maybe some of the stuff cuz

sometimes um it's the way I treat

talking in journalism and podcast is

like it's like a story in my own head.

Someone else is like just shut the [ __ ]

up and answer the question, right? But

like for me when I paint I I don't

sketch. I go straight to finish and I So

sometimes I'm figuring out what I'm

trying to tell you cuz you ask me a

question that's very direct, but I the

way it went into my head was very

abstract cuz I'm So um if you let me do

a little paint mixing, I I I hope I'll

answer your question. But do you um do

you know Peewee Pew? Like I'm wearing it

today. Do you know uh Peewee's

Playhouse?

>> I knew Oh, yeah. I mean Yeah. I met him

actually once.

>> Paul Ruben.

>> Yeah. at a at a photo show of Mike

Mueller and Sage who draws butterflies

on Mike Mueller's sharks and animals.

Oh.

>> And Peeweee Herman in his thing in his

suit, the whole thing walked up. Lared

Hamilton was there.

>> Nice.

>> And he walks up to Lar Hamilton. There

are a bunch of people around. Everyone's

trying to get to Larried to Lar. Lar's

like a This was 2017

>> and uh was in West Hollywood.

>> And Peeweee Herman walks up and he goes,

"I have to meet you." And Lar's like,

and the best thing is Lar just goes,

"Oh, hello. What's your name?" Like

typical Larard. Like Lar's a real

gentleman always, you know, and uh

>> he didn't know who Kiwi Her I couldn't

tell if he knew or not. And he's like,

"I really wanted to meet you." This kind

of thing. And uh and I was like, "No

way." And he had the whole thing like

the the shiny lips and the the thing.

And I was like,

>> "That's Peewee Herman."

>> Oh, that's amazing. I love that. All

right. Well, I mean, I'm definitely

going to have to tell you my Peewee

Herman story at some point.

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>> For me, art as a kid growing up, like

the trifecta, my holy trinity of

children's education, art, entertainment

is Mr. Rogers, Bob Ross, and then of

course Peewee Herman. I mean, Peewee

Herman had Lawrence Fishburn, uh, Gary

Panter, Mark Mothersba, like Danny

Elfman. Like, he just he was like the

ring leader of all this creativity. And

he had like Mecca, Mecca Ho. And do you

remember the do you remember the secret

word?

>> The secret word was like, if anyone's

our age that's watching people's

playoffs, it was like

>> Today's secret word is

I don't know what's our secret word

today, Rob.

>> Microphone.

>> Microphone. And if if someone says

microphone, scream real loud. So, can we

do that today?

>> Sure.

>> All right. I'm counting on you. I want

you to scream the loudest.

>> Um, and you don't take a pee until we

take a pee. We got a agreement on that.

Okay.

>> All right. Um,

I hated the South Bay. I I hate like I

just

I'm um I have all the um typical art

artist traits. I'm clinically depressed.

I'm bipolar.

Uh I have all the process addictions,

food, sex, gambling, shopping,

workcoholism. Like I don't have Thank

God I don't have any of the chemical

addictions cuz I'm allergic to

everything. But

um severe OCD, severe antisocial traits

um you know I I just

highly sensitive you know so I I just

coming here today like you asked me and

I kept text like I don't know we did

this like dance for a few months and I

uh if I'm just being honest with you

like

I I don't I don't know how to not be me,

you know, and sometimes like I put a

mask on and I I I'm like, I think this

is what Andrew wants me to be today, but

I, you know, I didn't even meet you yet.

And so

every time I've done Joe Rogan or any

other podcast, like

um I don't know, I just feel comfortable

doing my own YouTube or my own podcast,

but anytime anyone else asks me, it's

such a I know who I am and sometimes I

don't and sometimes I figure that out.

And it's sometimes you meet people on

the street at pavilions or at the

supermarket and they're like I and it's

like this parasocial thing where it's

like I know you, I relate to you, I and

there's something about that where

you know the intimacy of meeting another

human being and then just showing them

your heart and then telling them

everything. And my parents aren't going

to listen to this. my brothers don't

listen to like so in a weird way like

you're going to know more about me today

than my own family so the parasocial

thing is even it's real right like

placebo effect is real like all these

things so

I you know I got here early I went for a

walk down the to those that street and

then it's like just this beautiful view

of the ocean and I I it it happens every

time it's like

it it it. I know what it makes me sound

like. It's like, "Oh, this guy's like

very unstable and unhinged." And I'm I'd

be the first to admit it. It's like I

cry all the time now. [laughter] Like I

don't know what it it was just like

maybe just seeing all the burned houses

on the way here, just knowing that I

haven't talked in a long time and

there's no upside for me. And I told you

that I was like I go on these podcasts

and I think um

uh Howard Stern like 15 20 years ago and

Joe Rogan the multip multiple times I've

been on a show I think are the only two

p radio shows podcasts that have ever

just aired it without editing. everyone

else. Every time you've ever heard me on

any other podcast, it's either severely

edited or they cut out huge chunks of it

or they didn't even air it at all. So, I

know that, you know, and I know the

world we live in today. And so, there's

something that

went, you know, in the the narcissistic

traits where like I'm the [ __ ]

greatest artist in the world to like, oh

my god, I'm a piece of [ __ ] Like, it

just, you know, it's just like this

thing. And before when I was younger, it

was like everyone has to see everything.

Everyone has like I think I'm so

important that everyone has to see

everything that I create. Painting,

podcast, book, like whatever it is. And

then it went like my problem with my

[ __ ] is it's all or nothing. So it's

hard for me to find the middle.

And so at this point now I'm like 49. I

I live a very quiet dad life. You know,

I'm a family guy. And there's just

thousands of paintings no one's ever

seen. There's hundreds of hours, if not

thousands of hours of podcasts I've

never put out. There's books I've

written. There's TV shows, movies that

I've made that it's just I don't before

the ego and the narcissist like you need

to put this out because you're important

and everyone needs to see how important

you are. And now the flip side to that

is and maybe maybe it's not healthy

either is like I know who I am. I'm

comfortable with myself and I don't I

don't need you know I'm artificially

blocked from everything like I I'm I

don't have my own password to my social

media. I don't I have blocks on my phone

so I can't access the internet. So it's

like I do put all these things into

place to like protect myself because I'm

a sensitive person. So, um, you know, as

an artist,

there's certain isms and and stories.

It's like, oh, starving artist, you're

not going to make any money. Like,

struggling artist, there's these stories

that people say and then you buy into

them. Um,

but I had um I had a few teachers along

the way that

um influenced me that like you know

there's like just certain moments happen

in your life that live in your your head

rentree. And uh I have a lot of those.

And so one of the stories is you know

I'm 49. It's like you have to live in

New York City. If you make it in New

York you make it anywhere. What the [ __ ]

am I doing in the 408? Like this is what

am I doing in certain like like in my

head the story's written that you're a

[ __ ] you know and I hadn't done [ __ ]

right but in my head I'm like you're a

greatest artist ever in Gilroy you know

like what you know what I mean

>> sorry no disrespect to Gilroy

>> like the garlic capital of garlic fest

garlic ice Ice cream you know so

>> there's a story in my head that's like I

got to get to New York City right like I

gotta like

>> I [snorts] couldn't I couldn't get any

like leeway in Los Angeles. I'm born and

raised in LA and I just I couldn't, you

know,

and um

and so I I and now I look back if I do a

inventory of the most creative

explosions and the most periods of

creativity in my life, it's always found

in the mundane. It's always found in

cold temperatures. It's always found

when there's no Wi-Fi. It's always f

found in a suburb of it's it's like this

story like and when I get to [ __ ] New

York and I'm going to be part of this

move. It's never that like it's nice to

romanticize that but it's these moments

of brilliance like someone whoever's

listening right now they're like I got

this and then I'm there's like a and

then I'm going to get to this and then

I'm going to meet this person and I'm

going to do and it's like bro I was

[ __ ] living in San Jose for seven

years. I met this wonderful lady. She

was my girlfriend for 7 years. But like

at that prime I was 23 and I was like

and um

for me the stakes are so high because I

so one of the teachers was my mother

right my mother is hardcore born again

Christian.

So science does not enter the picture,

right? It's like blinders on and through

her I learned blind faith, right? Jesus

Christ. That's it. There's no there's no

So wait, you're telling me there was an

actual ark with two animals and all the

the two animals didn't kill the other

and like you know and there was an atom

and there was a snake that talked and

like yeah like no hesitation. So she

gave me that gift of like

like hey science like facts no blind

like just holy [ __ ] like there nothing

could fault her and you're like you're

[ __ ] stupid you're ignorant like and

she's but she's not she's a bright woman

and now I look back and like I just met

you you're a brilliant guy and I and I

sit here and I go I know some of the

smartest people on the planet. You know

some of the smartest people on the

planet and they're all dumb. They're all

like idiots. You're like, "Wait, you're

a genius. You have photographic memory.

You created this company and you made

some of the dumbest decisions I've ever

seen

or you don't know." [snorts] So,

so my mom taught me through just not

anything but just watching her of just

this absolute belief and and one of her

beliefs was

you're my son. You know, this is some

Jesus [ __ ] like me who was like how I

explained this is [ __ ] neurotic mess

like growing up in an unstable family

and all that. Got [ __ ] molested phys

every abuse, physical abuse, emotional

abuse, like just chaotic cuz they were

working and then I was just like left

out in the wild, abandoned, spiritual

abuse, all this [ __ ] And she's just

like, in the same way

she believed in God and Jesus, she's

like, "You're the one. You're the

greatest artist." And I'm like 5 years

old. I'm like, "What the [ __ ] are you

talking about?" She's like, "No one's

better than you. No one's better than

you. You're the be You're going to be

the great, you know, your name's David."

Like a lot of Koreans named after Bible.

She's like, "I named you after King

David. You're going to be a king." And I

go, "But now in hindsight, I'm like, and

yes, King David beat Goliath, but he

also was a sex addict and had a lot of

mental illness and like failed a lot,

you know. She didn't tell me all that

[ __ ] you know." Um, so she's she's

raising me. She's brainwashing me. It's

like, "You're the best. You're the

greatest." And then you, you know, I've

met other artists where it's like

everyone had this has their own paths.

Some become great because the parents

are like, "You're nothing. You're a

piece of [ __ ] You're the worst. You

know, who the [ __ ] do you think you

are?" I had the opposite. I had a mom

just it didn't matter. It didn't matter

like, "But mom, look at how horrible."

It's like, "You're the greatest." And so

it's like at some point I I hate myself.

I have like a so such a low self-

opinion of myself. I'm I'm just down on

myself. Just this kid just constantly

getting bullied and like the world just

using me. And [sighs]

um and I [snorts]

and I'm like, "Of course she says that.

She's my mom, you know, like, but she

just brainwashed me into believing that

I'm the best. And I I would, as a as a

trickster and a shape shifter,

I would, you know, what most artists

lack is like an ability to communicate

with words. That's why they're such

brilliant artists and that's why they

they can make great music and all this

because they can't I can't, you know,

like I'm gonna probably talk to you for

you few hours today and I'm gonna leave

here feeling misunderstood. I'm gonna be

like, "Fuck, did I?" because I'm not in

the same way I can like translate what I

feel in a painting. It's very like it's

like when people describe like Iawaska

or something. They're like try to

describe it and they're like the words

that you're trying to look for don't

exist for what you just went through. So

that's kind of the why why I get really

self-judgmental, but I'm like this woman

and then you know my dad he loves me but

he's like he's all right, he's okay, you

know. And I'd watched my mom who was

just like a brutal businesswoman, you

know, and um she would transform, you

know, we we we we you know, I I spent

most of my life either poor or middle

class, you know, like being wealthy came

later. But so, you know, we were on

welfare a lot, our businesses burned

down in the LA Riots. Like I saw my

parents struggle a lot, you know, but

then they would do good and they had the

gamblers mentality, which a lot of

Asians do. And I I have that too,

>> which is

>> just I don't know if this is true, but I

heard that uh Asians have the gambling

gene more than other races, especially

the women. Like most women don't have

the gambling gene the same way men do.

So my mom would gamble like flipping

houses or like not in a casino but like

just huge like huge swings which you're

like

I grew up in with a a fearless woman you

know

>> but so we wouldn't have stuff but then I

would watch my mom open the trunk of her

car and put on like fake jewelry cubic

zirconium cuz she's about to go into a

meeting and ask for a lot of money and

just just insane lying saying and but

hardcore Christian. So like the

hypocrisy there like I'm definitely I'm

trying to work on my own breaking out.

So it's like I'm going to be

hypocritical in this interview and at

the end hopefully I'll be able to

correct any exaggerations or lies. But

that's a new tool that I have. I used to

just you know whatever for the story you

know I lie to tell the truth you know

all those things. Um so I would watch my

mom transform from like a poor woman.

The mentality was she's like my my son

is the greatest artist in the world and

like I'm you know I'm coming out of my

Toyota hatchback with the broken window

you know but I when I go into this

meeting right now you're not going to

see that. So she transformed herself

into this rich powerful woman and just

like get like I'm I'm just sitting there

a kid in the corner watching this woman

get what she wants. I'm like holy [ __ ]

what the [ __ ] was that performance? And

then just coming out and I'm like, "But

mom, that's not like those things you

said. That wasn't real. That's not

true." And she's like, "Yeah, they don't

need to know that." And I'm like, "But

we just went to church and we learned

the Ten Commandments and you're not

supposed to lie." And it's like all this

like confusion.

[snorts]

And then I meet uh Sean Parker who uh

you know just the sweetest kid you know

just

he started emailing me right when he

started

Napster. He goes, "I wish I have all the

emails. I keep I keep certain emails and

voice messages and I just I just that's

my own nostalgia, but like I have a I

have a voicemail and a handwritten

letter from Howard Stern saying, "Thank

you for getting me into watercolors."

And I was like, "Dude, my [ __ ] hero."

Like, "Yes." Like, it's such a good

feeling. Um, I have a voice message from

Peewee Herman, which I'll share later.

And all my early emails with Sean Parker

I kept just cuz it was he's such an

interesting like wonderful I know like

the image of him but like I I we don't

talk like as like we used to but I still

consider him a friend and I'm over

forever grateful to him.

So he I met him at a time when like

I mean I don't even know how to des I

mean like

just complete disgrace and shame to my

family. You know it's like the immigrant

story. Talk to any immigrant. Why the

[ __ ] did you leave your home to come to

another country? Because it was shitty

there. That's it. You're not born in a

country and you're like, "Dude, let's

leave." Right? The only reason why

anyone's here is because it was shitty

where you were at, right? So then they

all, it doesn't matter if you're Asian

or Mexican, whatever. You came here for

a better life. And what does that mean?

Work your ass off. So we we're in a

nation of workaholics, right? This is an

entire country of workaholics. So my

parents, you know, I didn't go through

it, but they're like Japanese tanks

rolled down the street and you know,

they have the typical like [ __ ] war,

famine, all that stuff. So they get over

here and like born and raised in Los

Angeles, you know, it's like

don't know who I am, don't know where I

belong, just bullied, abandoned, abused

over and over and just

I didn't even really know the concept of

suicide, but I hated myself. Like I I

couldn't live in my like it felt like I

was burning inside my own body. And so,

um, even made fun of like, like I listen

to, we we have the same taste of music.

I listen to Minutemen, Minor Threat, you

know, I'm blasting,

uh, Downset, Inside Out, Sound Garden,

Slaves and Bull. I used to put on Sound

Garden, Slaves and Bulldozers,

punch myself as like just like I'm in my

room, a teenager, just punching myself

as hard as I can just to like go into

like a berserker rage. Um, and I and I

just back then the like I found

pornography and it was just so soothing.

Like it was like getting high. Like I

would just masturbate like over and over

again. So I'm I'm like master but I I

would do like weird self harm. I guess

the kids call it edging, but like I'd

masturbate but then not come and then

beat myself up. and I'm going through

puberty and I would go out and I'd

shoplift uh spray cans like just at you

know hardware stores and I'm listening

to uh you know I would get like a faith

no more like in living colors just like

some some song and I would just like an

OCD just repeat like some lyric in it. I

am a patient boy and I would just like

go into like a trance and I would just

go out and I would just [ __ ] spray

paint and I'm living at home so I'm not

hiding this [ __ ] I come home, my hands

covered in black paint.

TH THIS IS WHAT WE [ __ ] came to this

country for. This is what why we we

[ __ ] left another country so you

could come here and not be an artist but

do graff like you're a disgrace. You're

a disgrace to our race. You're you know,

and my dad would just like [ __ ] throw

me against the wall. And I'm like,

I don't care, dude. I don't care what

you're like, do you understand? Like I

wasn't like actively trying to kill

myself, but I didn't. Like, do you

understand that everything you care

about I don't care. Do you get that? And

like, you know, you start the show and I

I I was laughing cuz it's like, hey, I'm

Andrew Hub Huberman, scientist Stanford,

this and I'm like, I don't care. Like, I

I like I like Andy. Like, I like that,

you know? And then I was like, you know

what? This is like a stolen valor. Um

Sean Parker starting Facebook with Mark

Zuckerberg. You know, I'm there at the

beginning and uh so he brings me in and

at the time when I first this is years

the emails back and forth. He's like, "I

need cuz the energy I was putting out at

the time was what I'm telling you right

now. Just I don't give a [ __ ] I don't

care what you care about. Like I don't

like it's just complete. I don't care if

I go to jail. I don't care. Like, I'm

just painting on everything. And it's

like graffiti. Graffiti is vandal. It's

not an art. It's not graffiti artist or

street art. It's [ __ ] vandalism. It's

a crime. And people are telling me

anyone out there doing street art. Like,

there's so many rules. There's so many

like What did you write? Did you used to

tag or anything?

>> No, but from uh

>> if you skated, you definitely had like a

>> There were some kids in our crew that

>> cubes. No.

>> What did you tag? Come on.

>> No, cuz I had friends who were like

graphers and they were they like boxed

us out, you know, the the Under Shadows

kids.

>> You never did graffiti?

>> No, but we can talk about this later. I

want to I want to hear from you now, but

later we should talk about Orphan and

the Under Shadows crew, which is a which

is a kind of a thing in the Bay Area.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He was a good friend

of mine. But anyway, I didn't graffiti.

>> Okay. So, I'm

>> But I g I drew all my grip tape.

>> All right. That's good.

>> But no, I wasn't a tagger. Wasn't a

graffiti guy.

>> Yeah. So, I'm out doing like that and

you know like

you know we could have like a

conversation about creativity and this

and that and it's like I can't it's it's

very hard to talk about create it's

because it's like can you teach a craft?

Can you teach a skill? Can I teach you

to paint the Mona Lisa? Yeah, I know how

to do all that. I know how to like I

went to school like I taught myself. I

watched videos like you could teach

yourself how to paint something to make

it look like something. That's a

teachable skill. But creativity, where

does that come from? Are you just born

with it? Is it from deprivation? Is like

it's like a you know I could I can only

share what my path my my path is. And

it's like

the embarrassment like you're Asian, you

need to get a 4.0. You need to get into

UCLA. You need to be a doctor or a

lawyer. And it's like me, my I'm on the

middle child, me and my two brothers,

like long hair, listening to heavy metal

and punk.

Why you doing that white [ __ ] you know?

Like, and then he's got Asian kids that

are into heavy, you know, like there's

no identity, right? And then it's just

like lost. Just like what the [ __ ] is,

you know, like we don't belong anywhere.

Just like the Asian depictions uh in

media is like long duck dong. Asians

have small dicks. They can't drive.

they're good at math. It's just

nothing's good, right? And I'm like I,

you know, I'm just trying to figure out

my way in this world and I and I

remember

um Sean just was attracted to like

whatever whatever little art I'd start

getting some noticed and juxtapose and I

was starting to do graffiti everywhere

and and uh he's like I [clears throat]

want that whatever that is. I want that

like I want to be part of that. And I

said, and I I forgot what my painting it

was. It was like right when I couldn't

sell a painting and then all of a sudden

they were selling for a couple thousand.

And he's like, and he was a teenager

still. And he goes, "My

my I I I want your art, but the problem

is I'm being sued right now for a

trillion dollars because every single

song is a is a lawsuit, you know? I

mean, whatever." He it ended up the way

it ended up, but I remember he goes,

"I'm getting" He showed me a screenshot

or whatever. He's like, "I'm being sued

for $1 trillion right now, so I can't

really afford your art, but like I'm

going to get it, you know." So, we we

started this relationship, and he would

send me these crazy like abstract texts

of emails of what he wanted me to paint.

And then and then uh he started another

company called Plaxo. And he's like,

"No, no." And then finally,

you're catching me in the South Bay. You

know, I I met this girl, we fell in

love, and I moved to San Jose, just the

most culturally dead place, and

everyone's like rollerblading, working

at Apple or MySpace or eBay or, you

know, some some tech startup, and

they're like, "We're cool because we

have a trampoline and a, you know, we

have a like a kitchen area where you can

have all the Red Bull and snacks you

want, and we have bunk beds, so we" And

like that's also you could just keep

working, you know, and So, I meet Sean

and he's like, "Dude, we're starting

this company called Facebook and

like we finally have some money and

like, dude, this is" and he's like,

"Where are you at?" And he didn't know

all this, but I had just gotten out of

prison. I was in jail in Japan because I

had beaten up undercover security guard.

I was 27 when I got and I owed everyone

money. I owed my girlfriend money. I

owed And so I needed money bad. And um I

was in like a lot of trouble. I like was

I didn't know how how I was going to pay

everyone back cuz it's really hard to

sell a painting, you know, but my

paintings did sell once in a while and

they were starting to get pretty

expensive. And then uh all the art that

I did in jail um I used to work for Vice

magazine. I say work cuz but I never got

paid but you know I I

>> they didn't pay you. No, I I I think

people, if anyone's listening, this is a

little side tangent, is

um and it's going to definitely sound

like OCD, like I'm keeping a list, and

maybe I am because I don't think about

it, but

I I was sitting the other day and I go,

they all owe me money. Everyone I've

ever worked for, like people like, I got

to get paid. like someone develops a

skill like I'm good at songwriting or or

this or that and and then they go well I

got to like the young people's men well

that's my craft I got to get paid I go I

never got paid I work for Nike Levis

Ruka Giant Robot Vice

[ __ ] even my friends Steve Aayoki and

like just all every like 88 Rising if I

sit here I'll name everyone but like

either they didn't pay me my what they

said or I had to threaten to kill them

for them to send me or or they just

never paid me, you know. And I met Gavin

McKinnis when he started Vice and he had

seen some of the art that I did in Giant

Robot. He saw that I went to the Congo.

He saw like and he's like, "Hey." And it

was all punk rock. Vice when it was like

the big format and he's like, "Dude,"

and he just believed in me. I don't know

what he saw. He's like, "Dude, send me a

um a drawing of cops beating up this and

and I and I did it fast. I did." He's

like, "I need it by tomorrow." And I was

like, "I can do it." And then he's like,

he just was like, "Hey, uh, write me a

story about some shooting in LA, Korea

Town, gangster shit." And I go, "But I'm

not." He's like, "Just just do it." And

at one point,

that was another figure that was

resonated my mom of like the rules don't

reality doesn't apply. I'm sitting there

going, "Wait, but I'm not a journalist.

I didn't fact check anything." And there

was some issues of vice where I wrote

five different articles under a woman's

name, a black guy's name, you know, like

just made up names, articles just to

fill up pages. And I would have done the

comic section, illustrations, music

review,

uh, street, you know, fashion, you know,

the dos and don'ts. And I'm just like,

you can do that? And like I I had

already been groomed for that because of

my mom. like no rule reality doesn't

apply. just my mom thinks I'm the best

artist and now here's you know so Sean's

like okay and and so I'm I'm in what I

feel is like purgatory the 408 San Jose

Militus you know I'm just like what the

[ __ ] is this like and I'm telling I got

to get to when I get to New York it's

like this golden gate like end of the

golden road like Wizard of Oz like when

I get there then someone's I'm going to

get discovered and then someone's going

to be like and and Um

cuz what is it you know like what like

people like what is and I go

I am a I can be a hater. I can be a

loving sweet selfless person. I could be

like a very hard judgmental hater to

myself and and so I take this so

seriously like what we're doing here

today is talking. I mean it's mostly me

talking. I could see that. But it's like

we're having a conversation, but I think

without sounding it's like I I think

it's important. That's why I'm here.

Like I

like I said, like I'm like why? I I feel

like I trust you even though I just met

you, but like yeah, I [ __ ] puked down

the street because I get I go, "What's

the upside?" Like I'm going to talk and

then maybe I say something that I didn't

mean or I say it the wrong way or it

gets clipped weird or edited and I go

and I go, "I think it's important. I I

want to come. I want to talk to you."

And I and that's how I feel about my

art. So what is that? What is art? What

is creativity? And and for me it's like

I think sports are very gay, especially

skateboarding. Like I if I never played

sports, I would have never seen another

man's penis, you know, like and then in

my time in sports, it was very rough

because I wasn't I tell I told myself

any athlete that I paint with, they

always start saying the same thing. I

suck at drawing. And I go, why did you

do that? Why did you immediately shoot

yourself in like who who said that? Did

someone else say that or did you say

that? They they start with saying

something negative. And I go and and

then I go that's exactly what I say if

they try to teach me how to throw a free

throw. I go, "Ah, this is going to

suck." And they go, "Why did you do

that?" And so for me growing up, I grew

up with in a lot of black neighborhoods

where the second, you know, I don't know

how to play basketball, but the second I

try and I [ __ ] up, it's like, "Look at

Chinese kid [ __ ] try." You know, it's

like, "All right, you know what? I'm not

even gonna try it." you know, and it's

like, well, you should have just come at

like 5 in the morning when no one was

there, you know, but like I was so

sensitive. I was like, I don't want to.

So, I did things in the, you know, it's

art is a solitary sport for the most

part, you know. I'm not there's no Rob

there. There's it's just me

like like even in the thing it's like

this like don't look at my sketchbook

and but in here I can [ __ ] up and fix

erase whatever.

But so like in sports, you know, it's

like you're slapping guys asses, you're

taking showers with them, you're doing

all this like male bonding stuff. You're

just spending a lot of time with other

men, right? Like

and I'm [clears throat] like, "Oh god,

like

what is the feeling? I'm trying to

isolate the feeling. What like what?"

And I remember

because I I don't like I tell this stuff

not to be like feel sorry for me or I'm

a victim. I don't feel like that. I mean

this I'm just

>> telling I'm telling you what happened.

And part of it is

>> you do like a what what would you rather

would you rather someone beat you up for

five minutes or have the whole world

read your diary? You know like these

kind of and and luckily I had both. You

know I've been beaten to an inch of my

life. I've had like I've had broken

bones. I've been stabbed. I've been

burned. I've been like everything

physically you can think of and and I'm

still here, right? So there's not much

like I I in like because I have my mom's

delusion like when I talk to Joe and

he's shorter than me, but I I I know he

could probably like logically I know he

could probably kick my ass. I have no

fighting background, but in my head I'm

like, I'm pretty sure I could kick his

ass. And he would [ __ ] and and I

that's just the way I walk through life.

Like

like I still believe in Santa Claus.

People go, I can't believe I just said

that. I don't I think that's the first

time publicly I've ever said that.

>> We're coming up on uh

>> No, I know.

>> You know, Christmas.

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to get started. I just remember

there's I don't know it's changed now,

but I I remember when I was a kid, it

was around six or seven when they start

going there's no [ __ ] Santa. But I

was eight and I was like and they're

like how dumb are you? And I I

understand this reflects back to my mom

and Jesus. I go and they go, "But you've

literally never got any presents from

Santa. How?" And and and I'd go to

shame. I go, "Cuz I'm a bad kid. I

cussed. I was like I stole stuff from

the supermarket, you know, like." And um

they're like, "Hey, [ __ ] face. Santa's

not real." And I just was like, "But he

is. I believe that he is." And and I I

believe

I go there's there's him not giving me a

present is like cuz I put him in this

God category. Maybe he's not God, but

maybe he's a a god, like a demigod or

something. And they go, "How is he how

does he know if you're naughty or nice?"

I go telepath. How does he how does he

get every [ __ ] present to every kid

in that time? I'm like, oh, he's he's a

mutant. He can multiply. He can make

copies of himself. How does he get

through that tiny chimney and go

teleport? Like, I just It's not even a

question. I just know I I believe it.

And I don't care how stupid you think.

Like, I guess this is me coming out with

my Santa Claus, but it's just like I

just believe that. And you can't say

anything to make me not believe that.

That's my blind faith that I got from my

mom. So like every Christmas I'm aif I'm

almost 50. I'm a [ __ ] middle-aged man

that and I go maybe maybe this is the

year I'm going to but now I look back

and I go the gift he gave me of giving

me nothing gave me everything. Right? So

I I'm I'm sitting there and

I I I'm drawing

but I have that story in my head too.

Like I suck. Oh [ __ ] that doesn't look

like Batman. Oh, his arm looks weird,

you know. And then at some point

to this day, all the physical and

emotional pain uh uh sorry, just the

physical pain like it passes. I've

broken bones. I've I've I've had my face

just pummeled like just where you

wouldn't rec disfigured and but it

passes. And I and if I think back, I

don't remember it. But the pain that

stays is like heartbreak, you know,

betrayal, abandonment. And I just

remember my dad would make us keep a

journal.

Um cuz he just wanted us to start

learning how to write. And it start it

started with if I take you guys to the

movies, you have to write a movie

review. And it was like we were eight

years old, seven years old. Just, you

know, today we saw Karate Kid. Johnny

got chased by skeletons.

The end. You know, it was like that like

a little kid, you know. But he's like,

you have to do it. Goonies was cool, you

know. So, we kept the thing, but then

he never asked to read it. He just

wanted us to do it. And I was like,

"Oh." So, I I started like getting more

brave. I was like, "I I really like this

girl at school." And like, and I would

just start getting really vulnerable and

open and just knowing because my

brothers don't give a [ __ ] Like, but

then the thought of like, "What if

someone ever read this?" So, I was like

opening myself up and just letting and I

was like, "Oh my god, like it felt so

good." Like like I can't tell anyone

like I'm having these kind of feelings

or like you know, like I [ __ ] hate

dad, you know, like so, you know,

whatever. And I I would take the bottom

drawer out of my desk out and I would

hide it under there. And I shared a room

with my brother, so I always did it when

he, you know, I thought I was being

secretive. And I was somewhere between 7

8 n I it just you know as you get better

at writing and I I got more once I got

more comfortable knowing that no one I

just started writing everything like my

brother [ __ ] fart smell like I wish

you know just like everything I would

write just just completely

and I came one day and I saw both of my

brothers on the bed reading it and it I

remember my face just like it felt so

hot like like I felt like someone had

just like ultimate betrayal

and and it was like being naked. That's

why I bring up the like I felt more

naked than being in a room full of naked

guys showering like slapping like it was

the most vulnerable like they were being

so merciles. H you like her and you did

that. I can't believe you've you know

because I wrote everything in that

journal and I I thought I I was going to

die from shame and embarrassment.

And they, you know, like the way kids

are, brothers can be, it was merciless.

And they made fun of me for years for

that. And in the same way, my face was

disfigured. And I've had physical abuse

and all that. I lived through it. And I

was like, I'm still here. And so, why

the [ __ ] am I going to be a [ __ ] when I

draw? When I draw. No more like, I'm

going to draw Batman like this artist or

that artist. Oh, I'm gonna draw like,

you know, like, okay, that's fine.

You're like trying to figure out how to

work with tools and but and that's fine.

Skill craft. Great. But like this like

showing you like so there's I had been

trained now

for heartbreak, right? Like a lot of

artists spend their whole life being not

validated, bullied, rejected, and then

finally they figure out how to draw

something where people are like, "Yes,

we like that." And so they never grow.

They do that same verse, that same flow

forever. And then you got people like

Andre 3000, they're like, "I don't care.

I'm going to I don't care what, you

know, I'm going to do flute shit." It's

like, "Well, we don't like that." He's

like, "I I don't care. I'm an artist.

I'm going to You got someone like Flee

who's like, "I'm going to just do

performance art." And I'm like, I don't

even like half that [ __ ] But I just

love them cuz they're and I go, how

[ __ ] brave is that? How brave is

that? But I remember

just to this day, right, I am a very

successful established artist. And yet

today there's people like, "That's

[laughter] the [ __ ] worst art I've

ever seen. That's the that's" and I and

I and I go, "Cool." Like but but if you

don't have that background of just

having your heart ripped out, it is the

most painful thing to put yourself out

on a c like to pour your that's you.

That's your soul and someone's like and

then especially if you're trying to sell

it like no thanks, you know. Um, so to

have a guy like Sean Parker who's

younger than me, but just not even the

art, he's just like, I like you, like

whatever that is, and then I want to

change the world with this kid that I

met, Mark Zuckerberg. And so I meet him

with his flip-flops and, you know, I

meet the whole crew

and

I and I go, "What do you want me to do?"

He's like, "I want you to [ __ ] paint

everything. I want people to be scared.

I want investors to be scared when I

want everyone to just be like, "We're

not MySpace. We're not eBay. We're not I

want them to be horrified when they come

in here. I want you to just [ __ ]

paint the microwave, like everything."

And I go, "In indoors, right?" And he

goes, "Yeah." And I go, "All right, so

just like cover up your computers and

then, no, we're going to we're going to

be working here." And I'm like, "You

know how toxic these chemical like I

work in spray paint. Like I have brain

damage because of this [ __ ] Like I I

have like memory issues. They're like,

"We don't care." You know, they were

like young. They're like, "Fuck the

world. Hack the world." Like all that

[ __ ]

>> Hack the world.

>> They love say, you know, [laughter]

>> so I was there and they would be like,

>> "Let's [ __ ] blast Da Punk." Like I I

don't this is a world I'm not you know I

like going into different worlds and

they're like we're gonna blast da punk

because I guess it's like something with

the repetitiveness and the coding and

we're going to do these hackathons where

we just [ __ ] hack into [ __ ] and

[ __ ]

>> it was punk rock. It was like a very

nerdy punk rock but they're like we we

don't give a [ __ ] Like and I I like

that spirit but they were such nerds and

they were so earnest. There they there

was a you've never heard people talk

like that where they're talking they're

like and we're going to change the world

and I'm like I'm into that whatever that

is and they thought they were so cool

when they thought they were giving me a

Stanford email. I go I I I because I'm

not on social media like I never I'm a

lite I don't I'm the last to

whatever new technology I'm like all

right like I've never touched AI any of

that and and so I was like

you guys are trying to be like MySpace

but MySpace is it's already here like

for the young people listening like

there was no Facebook there was no

Instagram it was MySpace it was just

dominated and they're like yeah but

we're we're [ __ ] MySpace for Ivy

league, you know,

>> that's right in 2007. That's right. Cuz

that was a post in order to get

Facebook, you had to have an Ivy League

or a Stanford email technically in the

You're not the only one, [ __ ]

Stolen Valor. So,

>> I love it.

>> So, I forgot what it was. It was like

Choy Stanford. .edu and But like I

remember he gave it

>> still exists.

>> I don't know. He's he I remember him

giving it to me like it's something I

wanted. I was just painting. He's like,

"Dave, you don't have to go. I I'll I'll

get you a Stanford email and then you

could be part of Facebook. I'm like I

don't want to be I don't I

[clears throat] don't care. I don't care

what you like you want to be you and

Mark and all these guys want to be in

this like and they're like he was like

confused cuz he's like you don't want

the

whatever like respect and whatever comes

with be having a Stanford. I go no I I

hate education. I hate learning. I hate

teachers. I hate like what the [ __ ] are

you talking about? And he he he was like

I go why don't you just make it for

everybody? And he's like oh like you

know I the thing is like it was so funny

when the David Fincher movie came out

cuz it's just an awesome movie but it's

just I was there for all of it and it

just did not like some of the facts are

right but it it just didn't go down that

way you know. But so so Mark is like a

genius and and and Sean I mean

similar to my mother.

It's like I think Naomi is still there.

It was like Naomi, Mark, Sean, Dustin,

and me just like gassing them out.

They're just trying to code like and I'm

like listening to all their

conversations and I'm like telling them

how nerdy they are. I'm like, "Bro, make

it for everybody. don't you know like

and they're like

and I would listen [clears throat] in on

all their conversations like so [ __ ]

cool Dave Joe's painting our office and

I was like oh they like me you know like

I'm I'm being validated not just by my

mother you know um and so you know I I

do everything backwards and we start to

discuss payment you know and at that

time I had once in my life sold a

painting for like 10 grand and it was

like a fluke and that's another story

that I could tell about rejection and

all that But um so I just I just did

some dumb ignorant math. I was like,

"Well, that painting was this big and I

I was like 60 grand, you know, and I

needed that. I needed that to pay off

everyone." And then at the time

up until going to jail, like I had been

a thief. I was doing a lot of stealing

to support my like I was like I'm

graffiti doesn't pay the bills, you

know?

>> Stealing your paint.

>> Stealing everything. Was Facebook office

painted with stolen cans?

>> Probably. Probably. Um, yes. Yes.

>> Yeah. [laughter]

>> Um,

>> my my graph friends graph graffiti for

those that don't the graffiti, but they

were like world class crooks.

>> Yeah. Yeah.

>> Cuz they were always stealing pens and

paint and, you know, I mean, they

>> Exactly. I mean, it's like you like it

doesn't pay the bills, you know.

>> Yeah. So uh what had transferred uh you

know you know the nature of addiction is

if you don't get to the root of it it

just keeps jumping right like uh

whack-a-ole. So it whack-a-mole

um into

my my background which is watching my

parents take huge. So I got into

gambling. So I was just g like it there

was every paycheck anything it was

always

I gotta figure out a way because

gambling feels like stealing and it's

you know and I sat there and and people

were just like you work at Facebook like

that's you know my friends that aren't

in that academia they're just like

that's like the the the shitty MySpace

you know like look at the font look at

the you know all the artsy crit like

look at the designs [ __ ] you know

what is that the the name Facebook. Come

on. Like that's the most creative, you

know. [snorts]

And I said, I think uh I'm gonna ask

them if I could get shares in the

company, you know. Um

>> you did you understand equity in that

whole thing?

>> I don't understand anything. And it's

like I have shares in other companies

that are all worthless, right? Like it

was just it was growing up with my mom

watching her that if I didn't have that

like I just and I don't even understand

that [ __ ] just

I remember being with uh having lunch

with Zuck's uh parents and like you know

he doesn't he comes from a nice family

and I think Yahoo or Micros someone had

offered him right in the beginning a

billion dollars for it and he's like no

thanks and he's still sleeping on a

[ __ ] mattress on the ground eating

Doritos and I'm like like you know I'm

trying to like pay my [ __ ] uh all my

friends back and I'm like oh he doesn't

give a [ __ ] he doesn't care about money.

Like he cares about like what he cares

about. It's like such a singular focus.

He's like, I want to [ __ ] disrupt the

I want to bring the whole world

together. It was, you know, youthful

idealism.

And I remember uh uh going to work uh

one day.

I just loved working there cuz I don't

get jobs like that where they're like,

"Paint everything like like you're

you're here like doing this and I'm

painting around like I'm painting on

everything." And and the best part is

they didn't even like what I was

painting. Like Mark would come and he's

like, "What? What is that, dude?" And

like Sean's like, "Dave, you know that

other thing you did I saw at the art

show? Can you?" And I was like, "You

didn't ask for that. You said [ __ ]

destroy like you said scare people when

they walk, you know." Um,

>> as I recall, there's like a there was

like a big primate like monkey with

jagged teeth and some crazy.

>> I was I was, you know, and I was gassing

myself out, you know, like

>> I'm like doing all that [ __ ] without a

mask on. It's all going right into my

brain. Um, I'm like whoever know

whatever spray toxic spray paint fumes

does to your brain and there's no fresh

air coming in. And I remember

Sean Parker just bronze just bronze skin

like $200 haircut custom suit and I go,

"Who are you, man?" And he was doing

what my mom was doing. I was he was just

[ __ ] doing push-ups and like and I

was like this skinny little nerd like

just is like handsome. And I go, "Oh,

this is what my mom used to do before

she went into a bit. She used to [ __ ]

And he's like, "Oh, we're we're going to

get we're going to [ __ ] raise some

money." Like he was And I go, "Holy

[ __ ] this guy's so sick." You know, and

he transformed his physical appearance

because he was about to go into like

serious fundraising. And that's when I

met the PayPal guy and Peter Theo and

like just I was like this guy's [ __ ]

you know like people give all the credit

to Mark but I'm like Sean guy was he was

an artist in you know and also like out

of control which like [snorts] that

attracted each other [gasps] and he was

there when they got when he got fired

and all that stuff but

I remember

like the impact that had on me like

Wow. Like

you heard you've heard the fake it till

you make it, right? It's like I I know

I'm not the best artist in the world,

but my mom thinks so, but Sean Parker

like other people think so. And I'm but

I'm like but that's whatever. They're

just kissing my ass or whatever. And

then there can be a switch. And and I

think

it's like

sick and tired of being sick and tired

or enough is enough. Like I just can't

take it anymore. It's like, well, I I I

can't live like this anymore. I I I feel

like I'm trapped. I feel like And so

then it's like, oh, you can't travel.

You need money for that. Well, I'm going

to hitchhike then. I'm going to hop on a

freight train. I saw the entire world

with nothing. No money. like, "Well, it

must be nice to be rich." I go, "I'm

rich now. I've had nothing my whole life

and I just had to [ __ ] fight for it."

And like, would I recommend it? Like, a

lot of it was illegal. I spent a lot of

time in jail. But also, jail didn't hurt

me. I lived and I spent some time there.

I got to learn who I am. And and so it's

just to piece out the skills you learn

for what's creativity, what's business,

what what what aided me and helped me at

this time in my life that which no

longer aids me now and how to like cuz

my the other thing I learned from my mom

is just just adapt. Oh, our business

just burned down in the LA Riots. And

instead of like sitting there, he's

like, "Okay, now we're doing this. Now

we're doing this. Now we're doing this."

And I'm like, I remember getting a job

in uh Beverly Hills right after high

school. I was 18, 1994.

And it was at this weird comic book,

like a high-end comic book store called

Comics Top Hits. I'm not a comic book

guy. I love comics.

And I remember I beg the guy for a job.

I'm like, "Please, please." And he's

like, "All right, fine. The customers

seem because I would just hang out there

and talk to the customers anyways." And

I remember one day Stan Lee showed up

and I'm like [ __ ] Stan Lee like my hero,

you know, and he and he sat there and um

people were bringing him Darkwing Duck,

Batman, Archie, like all the things he

he he didn't work on. Hey, Marvel fans.

And he just signed everything. And I'm

like I was like the guy managing the

line that day and I'm looking at his

hair plugs and I go, "You [ __ ] f like

you didn't [ __ ] invent Batman.

You're, you know," and at the end of the

day, I built up enough confidence to,

you know, as everyone left and we're

packing up, I'm like, "Stan, dude, you

didn't invent Batman. Why the [ __ ] you

signed that guy's book?" And he's like,

"Did you see their faces? Did you see

like they were so happy? Like

why would I why would I get in the way

of their happiness?" And I'm like, "Holy

[ __ ] dude." It's like, "Yeah, don't

correct people." And I thought about

that like everywhere I go in the world

and there's like

Ching Chong, China. This I I remember

being in Africa and these kids were just

chasing us everywhere going ching chong.

And our translator was a French

Vietnamese guy and he was like, "Dave's

Korean. I'm Vietnam." It's like, you're

just they don't give a [ __ ] dude. They

don't give a [ __ ] And I remember just

the things I'm talking about is like

watching Sean Parker shapeshift,

watching my mom shapeshift, watching

um act as if you belong. Act as if you

have a seat at the table. It's like the

[ __ ] It's like I know that's part of

being artist is being like shy, nerdy,

self-conscious. It's like just pretend

like you're the best artist in the

world. Like you just show up and you're

like put like

this is the journey from their head to

heart. You're this is a I I like when

you talk because you you make sense, but

there there's that and that's why the

smartest people in the world are the

dumbest [ __ ] idiots I've met because

they try to apply logic to everything

and you're applying logic to spiritual

problems. You're applying logic to

emotional problems and it's like how's

that working out for you? It's not it's

not you're never going to outthink a

feeling. You're never going to outsmart

a feeling. like you're like wait the the

these people are act like why who would

do that? Why why would you do that? I'm

like because it's not logical. It's it's

an emotional thing. It's a it's a it's a

mentally ill whatever it is. It's uh

it's not logic based. It's emotion

based. It's mentally ill based. It's

spiritual based. Like you can't [ __ ]

with people's religion or what they have

faith in or and and all this stuff. So,

I'm watching I I remember going

Stefan correcting the black kids that

he's Vietnamese is making them feel

stupid and they're getting angrier. The

kids that think I'm Bruce Lee and I just

confirm that I'm Bruce Lee are getting

happy, right? It's like people are dumb

out there. That's fine. I don't care.

I'm dumb. I'm stupid. It's like when

someone corrects me or it makes me feel

shame and dumber, but then if no one

corrects me, it's like then it's my own

[ __ ] to figure that out or not. Right?

So watching these people like very

successful people in my life,

my mom, she's like unstoppable, right?

Anything the world throws at her, she

just goes, "Okay, I guess we're doing

this now." Like she doesn't hang on.

She's like, "Hang on tightly. Let go

lightly." Right? It's just like, "Okay,

we were real estate people. Now we're

doing herbal life." Oh, the that

happened. Mark Hughes died. Okay, now

we're doing this. Like she just goes

like that. Like like adapts to any

situation. And like right now I get a

call a week from

all artists, creative types that there

it's, you know, we don't have AI talk. I

don't I would rather not have an AI

talk, but it's Armageddon, right?

Everyone's like, I spent my life doing

sound engineering and now it's gone.

Just like the guy who would do the like

hand letter this and then Photoshop.

Boom, your job's gone. The Carl Zeiss

lens go on the iPhone and now

photographer like it's just it's gone.

Like you could sit there and start

complaining or you could just keep

adapting. And so I think true creativity

you can't contain. If you're if you're

open and you're ready to get naked and

you're ready to, you know, people like,

oh, do you have to suffer to be a great

artist? Absolutely. But you've already

suffered enough. It's already done. Like

whatever happened to you in your

childhood, that's enough fuel for the

rest of you don't have to continually.

But I see myself and others at times

like I I hopefully I'm better now, but I

see people continually putting

themselves in a this situation to like

suffer more and more and more and and I

and I just I just remember the the shame

of

my my like it's just these things.

They're they're they're you know decades

ago, but they're still like my dad just

like throwing me ac like we left another

country so you could be a criminal

event. Like just he was like I'll just

kill us all now. We were in the car

leaving the police station. He's like

I'm going to crash the car. And I was

like I was in the back like kind of

disassociating, numb, crying, like

feeling mixed emotions going from like

victim to sorry to like well [ __ ] you

then. And you know all everything in

between.

And then um this going I accept now.

>> Oops.

>> I accept. Sorry. Am I close enough to

the microphone?

>> You're good.

>> Am I close to the microphone?

[screaming]

>> Um just going I I'm I'm going to choose

to believe what my mom believes in me.

I'm the greatest artist on the planet. I

was in my 20s. I was like, "Fuck it."

like going into galleries, looking at

comic books and

um can I tell you one quick [ __ ] you

Sean Parker story? So at at the at the

time I was doing Facebook like things

were happening like I had a Vice show

selling my jail art which gave me a

little bit of cash. I was starting to

work for Heidi Fice to do a a erotic

mural for her sex shop in Hollywood. And

I had just gotten a job to do Jay-Z

Lincoln Parks mashup album cover. And

it's like I needed the money and I need

and it was just like it things were I

was like it's starting to happen like

things are you know and and this is

while I was doing the Facebook thing so

they hadn't blown up yet, you know. And

uh they gave me the job and I'm like the

biggest rock band in the world and the

biggest rapper in the world are doing an

album together and they want me little

old me to do the I felt so I mean they

[ __ ] butchered the art. The I gave

[snorts] them the art and they just made

it look shitty. They put a shitty font

on it. They put a like they did fake

graffiti spray. I was like what the [ __ ]

did you whatever. Anyways, that's a

whole other thing. But um

I you know I'm like cool like what's

that gonna pay like you know like and

they're like two grand. I'm like

wait you know it's like this one day I'm

going to make it and my name is going to

be in lights and and I and I knew other

artists so like Mir did uh the Limp

Biscuit cover Shepherd Ferry did. So I I

knew them well enough where I was like,

"Hey guys, am I getting [ __ ] right

now?" Or and they're like, "No, that's

typical." I go, "That's what they pay

artists for." I mean, cuz back in the

day when I was doing art paintings,

whatever, galleries,

uh, or illustrations, that was the

range, 200 to like 2,000 at the most if

you're doing like a cover or something.

But I'm like, "An album cover for" And

they're like, "No, that's what they

pay." And I was like, "Damn, dude. I

thought this was this is big time, you

know, and so I negotiated for that. At

the same time, I'm working at Facebook

and I drew this crazy cover and they're

like, "Yeah, that's for the rights for

the album cover, right?" So then, I

don't know, the album comes out and then

they use the art everywhere. They use it

on billboards. My friend's reading comic

books. He's like, "Oh, they did a full

page ad." And I go like, "For

illustration, that's a separate fee,

right? It's like here's the rights to

use on the album cover. Here's for

advertising, right?" And so I'm talking

to I don't know anything, right? I'm a

[ __ ] horrible street artist running.

Oh, I call myself a street artist. Uh,

delete that from the microphone.

[screaming]

Sorry. Um, so I I'm, you know, and you

you could like bleep the names or

whatever because I I clearly remember.

So I call Warner Brothers and I go,

"Hey, uh, can I talk to whoever's in

legal or whatever?" And I go, "Yeah, I

talked to my friends who are also

artists that are more successful and

they said there's a separate fee I

should be getting for billboards, you

know, bus bench usage, magazine,

editorial, you know, you know, magazines

used to be big, you know, Tower Records,

Virgin Records." And

>> I remember the arrogance on this guy,

Chip. He was like their head legal. He

doesn't work there anymore. And he's

like, and I I remember the way he talked

to me felt like my child like just made

me feel so he's like, "You're some

shitty graffiti." Like, "Who the [ __ ]

are you?" You know, like why am I

wasting my time talking to you? And I

go, "Well," and he started like just

hitting me with legal ease. And I go,

"Hey, I'm raising my hand right now. You

can't see." I'm raising my hand saying,

"I don't understand what you're saying.

Can can you please talk to me?" And like

can you dumb dumb down like you're

trying you're like trying to beat me up

with words right now. I'm just saying I,

you know, it should be an additional 10

grand, 15 grand for what you guys did.

I'll be happy with another five or you

know, just like trying to talk and he's

like,

I don't know who the [ __ ] you think you

are. And it was like very condescending.

And I and I I remember the arrogance of

I was like, I could be recording this

call or you know, but he was just and I

was like, for a guy named Chip, that's

such a weird, you know, um,

you could come at us with lawyers. You

could like and you may be even right but

guess what you're [ __ ] with Warner

like you'll never win like you will

never get another dime out of us. I was

like, "Holy [ __ ] that what a [ __ ]

And like I said, like if you're gonna be

like people are like, "Oh, I love

painting." Then just paint. Like, "Oh, I

want to be." It's like, you know how

[ __ ] hard it is to make money as a

creat. It's like you got to fight. You

got to get a thick skin and you better

be ready to like I had to threaten Nike

with blowing up their entire parking lot

before they paid me. I was like, "You

asked me for these drawings. I did them.

I delivered them on time and you're

giving me the checks in the mail." And I

called like Widen and Kent, you know,

whatever the Oregon and I was like, I

live in LA. It's gonna take me this many

hours to drive and I'm gonna I don't

know which car is yours. I'm gonna blow

up every car. Check was in the mail the

next day. I'm like, why did I have to do

that? Why did I have to turn into my mom

to get the but most artists go and then

they just get [ __ ] over, right? So

that's part of being an artist is

getting [ __ ] over, not getting paid

what you deserve, blah blah blah.

So, I'm like obviously sensitive and

painting like in a bad mood. And Sean's

like, "What, dude? What's up, Dave? Why

you?" And I told him what I just told

you. And he's like, you know, and

Facebook has like big money behind it

now. It's growing. He's like, "Oh, we

got a multi-million dollar deal with

Warner Brothers tomorrow and the

meeting." And I was like, he goes,

"Check this out." So he has the meeting

with Warner Brothers and they're like

full like you know everyone's at the

long table and they're like oh we want

to advertise with Facebook and this is

the new this is the new world and and

they're like okay cool and it's like you

know it's like millions of dollars or

whatever hundreds of thousands of

dollars and he's like yeah but that guy

Chip [ __ ] with my friend Dave Cho so

we're not doing [ __ ] with you guys and

he just and I was like

this guy's my dog forever like like what

how like like just does not no [ __ ]

given, right? I was like I cried. I gave

him a hug. I was like, "Don't [ __ ] with

me. Don't [ __ ] with me." Like [laughter]

it felt so good. It felt so [ __ ]

good. I was like, and then I found out

he got fired and all that [ __ ] Like I

was like, "Yes, sometimes the little guy

wins, you know?" Like it felt so good.

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to get early access to Function. So, I

got all the typical shame and all that.

And and and to be fair,

if you're my dad and you [ __ ] escaped

the war and famine to raise your family

in America and you see your kid stealing

paint at Home Depot to graffiti dicks on

walls, like you're going to you're not

going to. So, I give him that, you know.

But I I just I was I felt I didn't know

where I belonged, you know? I I'm like I

I I couldn't process. Maybe I have

dyslexia. I I was in school and it just

I couldn't none of the information I was

like this is so hard like people

like I would try really hard to get a C

right where other people were like oh

okay you know X I was like why is there

an X in math and they were like Dave and

they they'd dumb it down and dumb it

down I'm like I'm I'm [ __ ] I think I

need to go to that class like I'm like I

felt

like I felt because both my brothers

have like really high IQ's and I'm like

I'm I'm stupid like I you know so I felt

really small in that area and and I and

I and I made up the story like I suck at

sports. I go so this this is it. This is

all I'll ever be good at. So I and and

now I'm going to fully buy in to what my

mom's saying. And because I grew up with

the Asian work ethic like I'm like

it's not a f I am I it wasn't like I am

going to be the best. I was like I just

adopted I am the best artist in the

world. and to that power of thought.

Like I sat down and I'd go to museum. I

studied everything. I studied comic book

art, cereal boxes, museums, fine art.

Why does this I just got into the

business side of art, the creativity,

[ __ ] loose watercolors, like tiny

detailed pen draw, like everything. And

I was like, and I was like over I'm like

I'm going to be good at all of it. Oil

painting like there. So people go what

what kind of artist I'm an artist

everything. when I talk, when I make

music, like I am going from I'm a piece

of [ __ ] I suck to like like, you know,

not healthy, but you know, it's like I

am art god, you know, like. And so I was

like in my 20s

just like brainw like waking up and then

like that's not how I naturally woke up.

I woke up like, "Oh, fuck." You know,

and I'd wake up and I'd have to put that

on like you're the greatest. You're the,

you know, like um hypnotizing myself.

You're the best. do the [ __ ] best.

You're the You're the greatest. You

know,

>> were you doing any like reading books?

Cuz at the time when you and I are

basically the same age.

>> Um back then [clears throat]

wasn't a lot about like neuroscience and

this and that and like actualization. It

was all kind of,

>> you know, hidden away, but there was

this there were, you know, there was

like the Tony Robbins type stuff and

there was the there was this idea and

infomercials and stuff that like that

you could program your mind. Sounds like

you just basically took all that on

without any of that.

>> Yeah, I didn't read any of that stuff. I

I stole lots of books and I would read a

lot of pornography. I guess this kind of

can I could uh

fit my Pee-Wee Herman story. If we're

talking about publishing, it's hard to

talk about this cuz kids ask me all the

time like, "How'd you make it in art?"

And like nothing I did applies to today.

You know, it's like I went to Kinko's. I

would have to spend my money or figure

out how to do that copy thing, that

trick to make more copy because color

copies are 99 cents. It's like who has

So I'd have to pick which one of my

paintings were the best. Make these like

mini color copy packets. So that's $10.

And then I would go to the news stand

and write the address like Rolling Stone

like all the magazines that had prestige

and like CF Payne, Kent Williams, Baron

Story, like all these amazing

illustrators that would would work for

Time magazine, Rolling Stone, Playboy,

like they would all use. So I would open

the the front page where it had the

heading of art direct and I would write

write it down and the news stand guys

like I sound like a boomer right now.

like, you know, it's like, who the [ __ ]

Like, there's kids listening right now.

There's a magazine. What's that? You

know, but that's what I had to do. And I

would be like, which magazine do I want

to send this $10 packet that I just And

then I have to mail it to and hopefully

like they get that letter and not some

other department, you know, and then you

I just rejection letter after, you know,

like sorry, sorry, sorry. And um so I'm

I'm I'm

sitting down and I'm

I'm I'm like I'm I'm ingesting all this

and and I have the p I have the fire and

I'm like sitting down and I go that like

what why is that drawing successful? Why

do you know? And of course there's tons

of insider trading and corruption in the

art world, but I didn't know that at the

time, right? It's like, "Oh, that guy's

dad owns [ __ ] water." [laughter] Like

that guy, you know? So, I would just sit

there and I I would be like, "That guy

drew this much. I'm going to draw 10."

Like, "That guy did this and I'm going

to draw, you know, and I and I just some

of my paintings, all my paintings back

then had like at least seven layers, if

not more. Just layering and layering and

dancing. It was me. It's like a musician

that's like I have to like I I saw a

thing with Rick Rubin and and uh Flee

doing give it away now. And he was just

like just you know he can do but he was

like just do like just play less. And

back then it wasn't it was like I need

to show everyone what I'm capable of

which is I can draw better than you. I

can paint. I have to show you that. Now

I don't care. But back then it was and

and it isn't that art is a it's not who

can put the most lines down or you know

and so I'm

I'm I'm trying to I'm trying to like and

it was just everyone has their own path

but I remember year 2000

I'm doing graffiti I'm getting some gigs

to do murals you know it's just slowly

starting and someone contacted me at

Marvel Comics and I was like man I

didn't even cry and like this is this is

it. This is my dream and they we want

you to draw the X-Men but like a cool

cool X-Men. I'm like [ __ ] I didn't even

have to go to portfolio day. I didn't

have to, you know, and I go, "Oh, I knew

if I just kept putting my [ __ ] out

there, you know, but I'm, you know, I'm

what, 23 at the time, you know,

and uh I start drawing it and I guess

they fired me or they didn't fire me.

They just decided to use a different

artist, but they never told me. So, I'm

still drawing it and I'm, you know, I'm

a passive aggressive angry kid already.

And I didn't email. Some people had

emails, but a lot like a lot of artists

hadn't. This is the beginning of the

internet. Like people weren't using it

the way they do now. And I remember it

was like the first message board where

my friends were like, "Hey Dave, you got

fired off the X-Men book." And I go,

"What? How did you know?" And they go,

"You don't use the internet." I go,

"What is that?" And they showed us. And

I felt shame again. I was like, "Oh my

god." Like I was so excited to

like there's little things in my head

like if I do a comic book that means I

made it and I wrote the most scathing

homophobic

racist like just I was mad. I thought it

was funny. I was 23 at the time and it

was like 10 pages long but I didn't know

the editor of Marvel. It's probably not

even him. It was just and I didn't know

how to get it to him. So, I just went to

Marvel's website and I just sent it to

every single person that works at

Marvel. Like, copy paste and the next

day was my first experience in the year,

you know, Y2K 1999 2000 of going viral.

They're like, every artist I look up to,

every writer I look up to in comics was

like, we don't know who the [ __ ] this

kid is, but he just committed career

suicide. And then once again,

shame. And so like if I go back to all

my shame stories, I go, "What's the

what's the through line?" And we should

have made the secret word shame, but um

oh, I'm a shame chaser. Like I get high

off shame. Like what's my drug? Oh,

workcoholism. It's like my my drug that

I've chased my whole life is shame and

anger. Like [ __ ] powerful drug, you

know? And so

I I couldn't believe it. I was like, I'm

never going to get to draw the Hulk,

Spider-Man, Wolverine. And I have and I

have at this point and I went through

the back door which I always do. It's

true true vandal. But I just remember

going holy [ __ ] this is the worst day of

my life. Like people that I look up to

they're like they there was like a whole

thing of like I don't know who this Dave

Cho I've never heard of him but he's a

horrible human being. Listen, you know

and I was like but there was context

like like you should have heard how I

saw heard it in my head like I was

[laughter] you know and they're like oh

it looks different and I was like holy

[ __ ] And that that was my first

experience of like of just feeling

like me following a pattern of trying to

replicate hatred towards me like like if

it's but not knowing it. I'm just like I

don't know what the [ __ ] I'm doing. And

and like some ignorance, some playing

dumb, some like repeating patterns like

a monkey without knowing. And and and so

I had a friend in comics at the time cuz

I was just like I don't I I was just

making art. I was going out doing

graffiti every [ __ ] night just doing

that OCD playing music in my head and

just tagging up everything. Like the the

kind of graffiti you're not supposed to

do. People's cars, houses. Like I wanted

someone to kill me. Like I didn't care.

Like I wanted someone to be like, "Dude,

I worked hard for that car and you just

ruined it." And and in my head, I'm

like, "But I'm a famous artist." Which I

wasn't. I'm 23. And they're like, "I

just made your car more valuable. That's

how I'm thinking." But I was out of my

mind.

>> You probably did make their car more

valuable in retrospect. Can I ask you a

question about the shame?

>> Absolutely.

>> I have a friend. He's a addiction trauma

counselor guy. Amazing guy. Uh he's been

on this podcast named Ryan Suave. Uh he

um he he has a gift for helping people

understand trauma and addiction and this

kind of thing. We haven't talked a lot

about addiction yet today, but um you

said you got addicted to the shame. And

do you think I who knows here? I'm using

my intellectual brain, but

>> do you think that the that these

oscillations of like your your mindset

like I'm I'm a great artist. I'm the

greatest artist sets it up so the shame

is that much deeper. Like it's like

loading a spring or uh because he told

me once, Ryan once told me he was worked

with addict, heroin addicts, drug

addicts of all kinds, sex addiction,

everything. And he just said uh you know

he goes gambling addiction is the worst

because the next time really could

change it all. And he said but there's

something really interesting and that

happens to gambling addicts. He goes,

"Eventually they get tired of winning

and they get addicted to losing."

>> Happens really quick. So,

um, I have my own feelings about this

subject. I'm I'm a severe gambling

addict. Like, um, I told you I'm going

to time jump. So, I'm at at the create,

you know, I'm at that point, but I'll

jump to current, which is

which is a very shameful thing for me to

admit or talk about, but you know, I'm

here, so I'll just go there. Um,

shame is is so powerful because

at this point, I've been to all the

12step meetings. I've been to debtors

anonymous, business owners, dentist

debtors anonymous, overeaters anonymous,

workaholics, you know, sex and love

addicts, sex addicts, uh gambling, like

all every single And so what's the

through line? Every single one is

gambling. Every single addiction is