Une alimentation “microbiote friendly” ! avec Sophie Balestra & Magalie De Preux #555

It makes sense to imagine that

depending on what we eat, there will be

interference and

a tendency to want to consume more

sugar, thus stimulating the brain.

We can completely disrupt our

neurotransmitters with a diet

that is unsuitable and inappropriate for our

physiological needs. Hello friends, it's

Anquier. Before diving into

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Sales words, chronic

intestinal and ENT disorders, but also...)

Sleep or concentration problems?

And what if it's the gut? My guests

today know something about this, having experienced it

personally or having had to

support their loved ones. It's the realization

of the importance of a

healthy digestive system that led them to

become interested in the microbiota and its link

to diet. So, should we

stop gluten and dairy products? What do you

think of the GAPS diet? What are the

good fats? What are the essentials

to have in your pantry?

Today I'm welcoming two micronutritionists.

They're taking stock and guiding us to

make peace with our digestion through the

choice of good foods. In their brand

new book, "Microbiota Friendly," written

collaboratively and published by

AOL, they explain how, depending

on your gut profile, it's possible

to take care of yourself, even heal yourself, while still enjoying

food thanks to their numerous

healthy and delicious recipes. A

necessary awareness for our health

and our palates! I'm delighted to

welcome two guests today, a rare occurrence

on "Métamorphose."

Sophie Balestra and Magalie de Preux, hello!

So, I'm welcoming two voices

today to

Metamorphosis. How are you? First of all, well,

very well, I'm delighted to be here,

thank you so much for the invitation,

with pleasure. And Magalie, you're doing absolutely fantastic!

So today we're recording in

the Swiss Metamorphosis studio in

Geneva because you're

both Swiss, or at least you practice

in the region. Sophie, your office is

in Geneva, right? Yes, absolutely, a few minutes away. And

Magalie and I

practice near Châtel-Saint-Denis

in the canton of Fribourg. Yeah. So,

at the beginning of this magnificently

illustrated book, by the way, we have a

rather funny encounter. We bumped into each other by chance

while you were doing a

book signing at a Fnac, even though you

're published by a publishing house

I know well, Éditions Herol, but

I didn't know your book. It's

a bit like a bible! How many

pages does it have, by the way? It's quite thick,

indeed, it's a real guide,

nearly 250 pages. So,

Magalie, you did the styling and

the photos. Yes, that's my little favorite part;

I love staging all

these recipes. So, it's really

a collaborative effort. You

both mentioned that it was your children

and yourselves, and your health issues,

and your children's health issues,

that led you to become interested in

nutrition and to really try to

find the best way to take care

of your gut microbiota.

Could you tell us a little about this journey

that even led you to change

careers, Magalie? To start with

you, yes, well, my journey

began when I was a teenager when

my immune system decided to abandon me overnight.

I developed

severe food allergies that

led to a very

fragile state of health, which I wasn't

really too worried about because I

followed medical advice. So, I was

often on antibiotics, and when I reached

the age to have my first child, it wasn't a

big surprise that I passed on this very

fragile constitution to him/her. That was a real wake-up call

because when you become a

parent, you want the best

for your children, and you ask yourself

how you're going to pass on good

health. Then you feel

helpless when you

see your children's health isn't at its best. That's when

the reflections

started, and the path opened up. I went back to

school to retrain and

focus on how to improve a

child's health and how to heal, because

I was convinced that everything stemmed from our diet.

Sophie,

perhaps you could tell us about your

experience. Well, 10 years ago, when

my first child was born, he

unfortunately had to take

antibiotics for several months, which had

quite dramatic consequences. Was that

your first? Yes, exactly,

my first child, and it had

quite dramatic consequences on his

digestion. He very quickly had

blood in his stools, vomiting, and

especially during

the introduction of solid foods.

Solid foods, well, he was

simply unable to manage them.

It manifested itself in the

following way: his digestive system

completely stopped, to the point where it

displaced his ribs. We came close to an

intestinal obstruction several times, and in fact,

we never really managed to get it under control.

For two and a half years,

he wasn't able to have a

single spontaneous bowel movement. And I

couldn't bring myself to accept what

the doctors were proposing, namely,

an operation to remove a large

part of his digestive system, even to the point of

fitting a colostomy bag. I love

eating so much; I think it's

something so

essential. I needed

my little boy to eat. I couldn't bear the thought of him never being able to

eat by mouth. And above all,

I had a little voice that said, "Yes, yes, yes,"

and above all, it was—well, really,

I had my intuition—that

the solution existed somewhere.

I stopped working, and that's when

I really embarked on a

frantic quest. Sure, we were going to

see many specialists, but

unfortunately, none of them

really had the answer.

It was when I discovered, in

particular, the work of Dr.

Campbell McBride and the famous GAPS diet that

everything finally changed. That's really how

I became aware of how much

we already have, that the

body has an incredible capacity for self-healing,

and that ultimately, based on

what happens in our kitchen, we have

incredible power over our

health. You were a real estate lawyer,

and I think it's in the preface, about you,

Sophie, that one of the

doctors says, "One day you will become a

nutritionist." Yes, that's

exactly right. So, how did

you

also learn about this GAPS diet, Magalie? Was it through

your meeting, or was it

through your personal journey? We

started

talking about it at school, and then, well, it's... That's kind of the

point of connection we had with

Sophie, since we very quickly

developed a similar sensitivity

to our therapeutic approach

and observed the same results in

our health. And that's where it all

started. The GAPS diet, this

famous one—well, we call it the diet,

but we don't really like the

word "diet" in French because it has strong

connotations. We can say method or approach.

This GAPS diet by

Dr. Campbell-McBright, which you

mentioned, Sophie, she wrote a well-

known book called "The

Anenteropsychological Syndrome." I think for

both of you, it changed everything. Could you perhaps

tell us what

this approach is? You're not

necessarily only focused on the

GAPS method, but it was still

a very important starting point. Yes, absolutely,

because in the

GAPS method, there's a whole

system aimed at cleansing

the gut, calming inflammation, in order to

repair the

intestinal lining. This is absolutely essential

to be able to treat the

biofilm and ultimately rebalance the

microbiota, essentially restoring

beneficial flora, and thus improve

digestion and overall health.

This

systematic approach in the GAPS diet, and also

in the GAPS approach, involves

selecting foods by setting

aside, for a

certain period of time,

all foods likely

to feed

pathogenic flora. It seems obvious

when you think about it, but if we

continue to feed pathogenic flora,

we continue to feed

intestinal dysbiosis and inflammation, and

we go around in circles.

With this GAPS approach, it's

really how I came to

understand

which foods were

problematic, even if they

might be

considered very healthy.

So,

for you too,

Magalie, it was revolutionary. In what way is the

Western diet ultimately harmful

and not without consequences? As you

both say in your book...

That is to say, we

eat, but ultimately I had a

guest on this show who was

talking about... she said, "I'm committing a little

chocolate suicide." How does

food actually work? Well, not necessarily just

chocolate. Chocolate can have

positive effects, but how

our diet can have

harmful consequences. But I think we're getting

a little bit away from our

feelings about what's good

for our bodies because we live

in a society where we tend to

eat a lot and

also trust a lot of what we find in

supermarkets, especially all the

products that have been industrialized and

marketed to make us believe they're

good for our health. And that,

I think, is the number one trap to

absolutely avoid because we no longer take the

time to cook, we no longer take the time

to understand why these foods are

beneficial to our health. And ultimately, that's

really the

key point: our

diet must serve

our health and not just... Yes, by the

way, you also say in your

book that 70% Magalie, the regulation of our

immunity is played out at the level of the microbiota.

It seems incredible, exactly,

yes, and we see it, you know. We have

people who come to us for

consultations who have, in particular,

immune problems,

autoimmune diseases or others, or

who even get sick extremely

frequently with

chronic infections and so on. And we see how much of a

phenomenal impact this has on their health as soon as we start

working on this

famous microbiota. What symptoms

could we be listening to in order to determine if it's

the microbiota or

not? Because we are a whole, if

we see

a person as a whole, as a system.

At what point can we say, "Ah, well, perhaps

here I have an indicator that makes me think

it could be a

microbiota problem?" Well, it's true that the

first thing that seems obvious

is often related to

digestion, but it's not

systematic because there are

people who will tell us they

feel absolutely no adverse effects. They have a

level or difficulty with

their digestion, and yet they have

many symptoms that really raise red flags

regarding intestinal dysbiosis.

So, it's true that this is where the

difficulty and the subtlety lie, because it will depend on the

person's constitution, their genetics, and many other

factors. But what you have to

understand is that everything starts in the gut; it's

our

gut microbiota that allows us to digest

what we eat. And ultimately, we eat

because it's our fuel. In

fact, we need to be able to extract

the nutrients, vitamins,

minerals, and so on that will allow

our body to function

optimally. And it's true that in

functional nutrition, as soon as there are

dysfunctions, we

always try to identify the cause.

And in this way, well, we

very often, if not always, come back

to the basics, to the

microbiota. So, in your book, and this is really

very interesting, you

detail three digestive profiles with

adapted recipes. Are there any...

One of you two would like to give

us more details, or perhaps one

profile each. There aren't

four, there are three, so

one of you might do two.

Perhaps Sophie? Yes, absolutely. So

it's true that we created these profiles, we

also imagined them based on the

profiles of the people who came to see us for

consultations, and they developed

these profiles. Yes, yes. So of course, we both did

exactly that.

Digestive profile

1, well, it will mainly concern

people who have relatively acute chronic digestive problems. These are

the

people who come to see us and

explain that they have

irritable bowel syndrome, or even

more serious illnesses like

Crohn's disease, etc. But they already know this

when they come to see you, or not

necessarily. Yes, yes, yes, they

generally come to see us for this. It's often

people who have

tried just about everything, who are

unfortunately in a bit of a

medical crisis, and who no longer know how to approach

the problem, who no

longer know what to eat, who will... We tell ourselves, "I have a

lot of food intolerances," there's

a list as long as your arm, and so on.

And here, specifically, digestive profile 1, well,

the idea is really to limit

inflammation as much as possible. That is to say, we'll have to

nourish the

person while being as gentle as possible on

their digestive system. We're really

in a logic of digestive sparing,

and we're also in an

anti-inflammatory and restorative logic. This is where we'll have, in

particular, our famous bone and meat broth,

which will be

extremely important thanks to its

richness in collagen, carbohydrates, and

amino acids. It's truly a

therapeutic food that will

help heal the

intestinal lining, calm the inflammation, in

fact. So, this bone broth, perhaps

you can describe it a little better,

Magalie, you who also took the

photos for this book, well,

bone broth, this famous ancestral remedy, we didn't

invent it, we simply brought it back

into the spotlight. It involves

simmering meat... Bones and

therefore also a little bit of fat around

this very good quality meat,

so it's very important to have meat from free-range, grass-fed animals

without antibiotics, etc.

We're going to boil and simmer this

meat with aromatic vegetables, which

also have

health benefits, and we're going to add sea salt as well as a little

unpasteurized cider vinegar to

extract all these nutrients from the water, which

will have all these

health benefits. And that's extremely

incredible because this alone

replaces the work of

several dietary supplements if we were to

do this work in

detail. And then, through pills

rather than food, we can

prepare it for several days in advance,

have enough for a whole week, for

example. Absolutely, and that's even

the goal when we aim for this

therapeutic diet. We need

to rely on what we eat to

allow our body to heal, to

give it all the necessary resources,

and so we necessarily need to

come back to it and integrate it daily

until we There comes a

point where we can afford to space things out

and we've reached a goal, so

obviously it applies to profile 1, but

it's obviously excellent for everyone. Do

we have a small

version for our vegetarian or

vegan friends? Could we have a

small variation, or is that more

difficult? Well, honestly, for

vegans it's going to be complicated to offer

a therapeutic broth with the same

benefits without using animal products. There are

people who make

broth with fish, with

whole fish, but a

vegan version, honestly, that's going to be

complicated. Actually, in

consultations, we've

often had people who

were strictly

vegetarian or vegan, and once

we explained it to them and they

really understood the benefits of

this broth, they would make a few

exceptions, not necessarily

consuming the meat but

consuming the broth. But it's true

that a strictly vegan version, no, we won't have it

when we're in the case of this

profile. It reminds us that this still comes

with some rather

specific problems. Is there necessarily

always intestinal permeability in

these cases? Absolutely, or is it

the basis, in fact,

or is it inherent to... yeah, it's the

root of the problem then, because as soon as we

have inflammation, well, in

fact, our intestinal lining

is so thin, obviously, to

facilitate

exchanges, that as soon as we have a

little inflammation, well,

the intercellular junctions break down

and we end up with this

permeability. Yes, we will succeed in this case

of this profile 1 to r We'll one day find a way

to calm this inflammation,

which was the case for both of you, and for

your children too. We'll actually manage

to cure it, I'd say

definitively. Oh yes, and it can even

happen very quickly if

we really implement the advice

we give in

our book and stop feeding

the

pathogenic flora, the acute inflammation that causes

stomach pain, and so on. Well,

in just a few days it can be

completely calmed. And then, of course, it

takes time to repair the

digestive system, absolutely,

and that's really our goal, our

mission. We really

want to give hope. Yes, of course. So,

on this topic, are there

other things to do? We've covered a bit.

We've talked about broth, we've

talked about digestive restraint. What else

can we recommend? We'll have to be

careful with raw vegetables,

raw ones are much harder to

digest than cooked ones. We often

advise people to cook them. So, what's

best to consume in the

broth, especially meats, is the idea.

We often think meat is

difficult to digest, but it actually

depends on the type of meat. If you

choose fatty cuts and simmer them for a

long time—you know,

that kind of meat you can almost

eat with a spoon—well,

with simmered meat, you're

completely focused on

digestive comfort. It will be extremely gentle

on the digestive system; you won't have to make any

effort to absorb it.

So, we'll

recommend consuming meats, either the meat from the

broth or simmered meats, and

vegetables that have cooked in the broth.

Perhaps some

legume purees, things like that. You have to be

careful with

whole nuts and seeds if you don't chew them thoroughly,

because they

can quickly feel a bit like

sandpaper or be a little

irritating. So, we'll

really be in this mindset of being as gentle as possible

and avoiding anything

irritating, anything

pro-inflammatory, really. attacking

in one way or another, whether

mechanically or due to

the very nature of the ingredients, or

Magalie, you want to

try profile 2, or you want to

let Sophie continue?

Well, profile 2, we arrive at a

terrain that has already been slightly

improved. So that's what's

incredible: from the moment

we see improvements, and this is

described in the book, we can navigate

between these different profiles depending

on what we experience in our lives, because of course,

nothing is guaranteed

forever. So we'll move towards

profile 2 once we see these

symptoms, this very

acute infection, subside. These would be

people who could also arrive with

what type of problem that

would directly lead to profile 2, for

example. Well, these are people who

tend to have

bloating, various digestive problems,

they may have

skin problems like eczema, they

may have... An allergic

or food intolerance background, so these

are common; they come to us with

this information. It could be

seasonal allergies or problematic allergies

to various foods. They could have

hormonal imbalances and all that. It's

really the domain of

profile 2. We're not necessarily in an

autonomic context, nor in this

chronic and very acute inflammation, but still, we

're in a

daily life that's disrupted. Here we can

find what kind of problems

you mentioned regarding hormones. We can

find people, for example,

young girls with periods, or

women in monophasic syndrome, or women

who also have endometriosis problems.

We have the impression

that right now we're facing a flea,

almost an epidemic of endometriosis.

It's quite terrifying, by the way. I don't know

if you have an opinion on that, by the way. Yes, absolutely,

and indeed, it's

frightening

to see the number of people who

suffer from endometriosis, adenomyosis, and

so on. All these pathologies

of adenomyosis... Can you describe a

little bit what it is? Yes, well, I'm

not an expert, but it's

endometriosis, which goes even further,

actually, yes, it

travels up into the organs, and so on.

Yes, yes, and the symptoms are really very debilitating. And well,

indeed, you have to be aware

that the digestive system and the uterus, the

eggs, well, the whole gynecological system

are closely linked.

They are extremely close, very close,

and typically, when there is

inflammation in the intestines, it

can quickly

spread to the

entire area of ​​the uterus, and so on.

And we see this very clearly.

To treat these patients, it's

really by calming

the inflammation. Of course, we also

provide good fats to

support hormonal balance, and so on,

but we manage to get

incredible results in terms of pain related

to endometriosis. So it can be

pain, as

Sophie just described, but it can also sometimes be

problems with... When focusing on

ENT problems, we don't necessarily make a

direct link with the

intestinal system. Magalie, yes, absolutely. By constantly

feeding this so-called pathogenic flora, what we need to

understand is that there's always

communication between the

brain and our gut via the

vagus nerve. So it makes sense to

imagine that depending on what we

eat, there will be

interference and a tendency to

want to consume more sugar, thus

exciting the brain. We can

completely disrupt our

neurotransmitters with a diet

that is unsuitable and inappropriate for our

physiological needs. So what

you just said is very interesting: that after a

while, we

really lose our intuitive sense of what

's good for us, and we end up with

this dysregulation.

Could this be the case for profile 2, for example? Absolutely,

Sophie, what would suit

her then come to this

In terms of saving on

food, what would be

good? Always that good broth, yes, well, that's for

sure, broth is

the basis. We'll find it in all

three profiles, with

digestive profile 2. Well, it's

essentially digestive, but it's still

much milder than, well, it's

less, if you

will, less severe than profile

number 1, let's say. And here, above all, we'll try

to calm

bloating and so on. So, we'll be able to

introduce the same

things as profile 1, perhaps introducing

raw vegetables if that's okay,

depending on the

person's tolerance. We'll introduce, in particular,

vegetable juices, things

like that. Oilseeds can be

consumed in their whole form, of course.

We'll make the person aware of

chewing. But it's still

less acute compared to profile 1.

Yes, so profile number 3,

who wants to talk to us about it?

Well, profile number 3 This is

Magal from the front, I say, because those of you

listening with your headphones

might not recognize the

voice of one or the other, that's true, that's

true. Well, profile number 3, well,

here we're getting closer to

this health goal where we become

autonomous in our food choices. We've

understood what the issues are, the

symptoms have calmed down, we might still

experience a

few slight skin problems, or it's

very mild, very

occasional. We might have an

autoimmune disease, but in a

stable context, which isn't at all

the case in the two previous profiles. We

might still be in a

situation where we're perhaps a little

overweight, but again, it's

calmed down, it's understood, we're on the path of

this healthy diet, and so we

open the door. This is the profile that

's great because here you

find yourself, you open the book, and all

the recipes are compatible with this

phase, where of course it remains about

saving. Digestive, but it's open-ended, and

there we no longer need to pay

specific attention

24/7. So yes, would you add

something? Or yes, I also wanted to say

that Digestive Profile 3 will

really be aimed at people

who have identified that the

gut microbiota is probably

involved in their symptoms but who don't actually

suffer from digestive disorders.

So we'll have profiles of

people who can end up

with

chronic depression, even quite severe. Yes, absolutely,

Magalie mentioned

skin problems, or even

sleep problems, and

behavioral disorders. In fact, that's also something we

see a lot. And what's great is that we've

broadened the range

of dietary options.

We're really as broad as possible

to be able to eat without feeding the

pathogenic flora, and at the same time,

these people may have a

less sensitive digestive system. So

we've really taken that into account

in the Digestive Profile. That's

really fascinating what you just

said. The link between

somatizations that sometimes seem to be

psychological or

specific disorders—you mentioned attention deficit

disorder—is something

Dr. Campbell McBride has explored extensively.

In her research, she sees

direct links. Are you familiar with the

current research on these

topics? Well, the current research... let's

say that it's related. I don't have

the

latest studies; I'm not up-to-date on them. However, we see

that more and more psychiatrists and

psychologists are very interested in these

issues and are contacting us, sending people to us.

We support

many people, both

adults and children, because there are more and

more children

who have behavioral problems,

attention deficits,

hyperactivity, and so on. And it's

quite incredible to see

how these children sometimes even manage to do without

medication. Thanks to the

broth, for example—of course, there's more to it than

that—but you should know that

bone broth contains

throsine, which is a precursor to

dopamine. We know that

certain medications, particularly those prescribed for

attention deficit disorder, act

on dopamine receptors.

And once again, this really shows

how, by carefully selecting

a

therapeutic diet, we can have

life-changing effects. With

your permission, and of course, the

publisher's, we will offer subscribers to the

Metamorphosis newsletter—and there are many of you who

subscribe—

the broth recipe so we

can easily get it.

How long does it take to prepare this

broth? Well, it doesn't take much

time, contrary to popular belief. That's good news,

because you

can find recipes that take up to

24 hours to prepare, but in

reality, one to two hours—let's say two hours—is

a good amount of time to let it sit and

really have the... It's just a matter of

extracting all those precious nutrients; there's

no need to go any further. So

it's something that can easily

become part of

a busy life. On the weekend, you

prepare a large 7-8 liter pot,

and you have enough for the whole week. You can

freeze it; there are

many possibilities. Okay, that's very good.

And above all, we don't recommend

long cooking times of 24 hours because that will cause

the

broth to become extremely rich

in histamine. And histamine is

something that

more and more people are

sensitive to, especially

when there's dysbiosis, etc. So that's

very important too, because, well,

on social media, we see a

lot of recipes; it's also a bit

trendy, etc. So,

in any case, we really don't

recommend these extremely

long cooking times. For the reasons mentioned above, did

you both develop this broth,

or were you

inspired by it? So, how did

you arrive at this almost

perfect recipe for broth? It's not a book

solely based on this broth;

how many recipes are there in your

book? There are about a hundred, yes, about a

hundred. So, it's not just broth, of course,

thankfully, but it is at the very

beginning, I must say. Yes,

we also use it in

several recipes because the goal is

really to

incorporate it as much as possible into

daily life for its

therapeutic properties. And so, what

Sophie and I came up with is that, of course,

we didn't invent the basic recipe, but we

really wanted to go beyond the "

salty" recipes with this

broth, and we created a milder

recipe. We

called it mild bone broth, which, instead of

containing pieces of

beef, much more salt, and

aromatic garnishes like onion and garlic, we

replaced all of that with ground bone broth, cinnamon, and

cinnamon bark.

And apples, and we create a very

mild broth that we can

incorporate into mild recipes like

small compotes, sorbets, and

homemade ice cream. And there, without anyone

noticing, it allows us to consume it

daily, and the whole

family will enjoy it.

This famous broth will infuse or permeate everything. So,

when we talk about

nutrition and want to

establish new habits, where do we

start? Because often

it can seem daunting. We've

talked about broth, but what else

can we do? Well, I know

that in my approach,

I'll first make sure that the

person's digestive system is

functioning optimally. So, I'll

remind you of the importance of chewing. It might seem obvious,

but digestion

truly begins in the mouth with

chewing. We also have enzymes in the

saliva, and so on. Then I

'll make sure that the person has

good production. of gastric acidity

because, in fact, it might seem

obvious, but actually, it's not so much.

How do you check it, by the

way, with the bicarbonate test? That is to

say, on an empty stomach in the morning, you

take a teaspoon of baking soda, put it

in a glass of water, mix it, drink it, and then time it

until

the person makes a magnificent "goo" sound, yes,

like a baby. And

in fact, it's precisely because the baking soda, in contact with gastric acid, causes a gaseous reaction that makes you burp. This little test, which seems insignificant,

actually gives us an

extremely valuable indication because

without gastric acidity, it's

simply impossible to

properly digest proteins. And once

the stomach contents reach

the upper intestine,

we have poorly

digested food that will begin to ferment,

we'll also have putrefaction,

and so on. This is really the

beginning of the problems, so this

gastric acidity is truly essential,

and unfortunately, it's often

disrupted by factors such as

stress, lack of sleep,

perhaps an unsuitable diet, or

taking certain medications. At least,

I see this every

day in consultations; it's

a very, very common problem.

The problem is that when

people have stomach pain,

heaviness, acidity, and so on, they

go to their doctors who

prescribe exactly what they need. So,

unfortunately, it's exactly the opposite of what should be done. We need

to identify this lack of

gastric acidity and correct all of that.

Then, we also need to make sure

the person isn't suffering from a

nutritional deficiency. We'll definitely

do some tests, a medical history, yes, and

especially without necessarily doing

direct tests, but by

really taking a medical history, just by

taking the time to

talk with the person, to identify their

complaints, their possible symptoms, and so on, well,

we'll already be able to deduce a great deal.

Targeting at the

dietary level, and if necessary, the

analyses will come into play later.

Interesting, Magalie, do you

have any rules for us regarding

balanced meals? Are there any

things we really need to keep in

mind, perhaps even in terms of

chronobiology or how we plan our meals throughout the day?

It's a very broad topic, obviously, we ca

n't answer it just like that, but some

general rules... well, among the general

rules, we'll find the principle of

breakfast. If we want to

eat something, we

really need to focus on

quality, easily digestible proteins, as well as

good fats that will

allow us to produce carboxylamines,

which are the

energizing neurotransmitters of the morning. If we don't get

these proteins and good fats at the

beginning of the day, well, our

energy will suffer throughout the

day. Perhaps there's a

breakfast recipe you

recommend in your

book? There are plenty of them. It

really depends on what you want to

focus on. For example, there are people who prefer savory foods from

the morning onwards who will

be perfectly happy with a

slightly scrambled egg, with the yolk still

a little runny, topped with a

bit of crumbled raw cheese

and some aromatic herbs.

So that works very, very well.

You also have some very appetizing yogurts

in the recipes.

And for the slightly

sweeter version, we're going to make

homemade yogurt that will

ferment for 24 hours. These 24 hours

are crucial for allowing

the bacteria to consume almost, if not

all, of the lactose present

in the milk. So that's already extremely

beneficial for people who

are lactose intolerant.

And these precious enzymes that will

also develop during

fermentation will break down

the casein, which is the

inflammatory protein. So, in this

delightful mix, we end up with

an ultra-digestible yogurt that's incredibly

rich in microorganisms, including those famous

probiotics—those little bacteria that

are our friends. And so, here we have another

breakfast rich in good

fats and protein, which we

can season if we want

something a little sweeter.

Why not try some

out-of-season frozen berries? We also have a

granola recipe made with

oilseeds to avoid feeding

pathogens. So, we don't use

cereals directly, but oilseeds

with cinnamon. Why not add a

little drizzle of maple syrup just to

enhance the flavors? And

then we mix that with our

yogurt—it's delicious! Now, I

'll make two brief asides. First, we did

an episode with

Dr. Charier dedicated to

cinnamon. So, if it's an ingredient

you've mentioned twice that interests you,

I invite you to listen to that

episode again. Dr. Charrier,

and since we've been talking about dairy products, perhaps we could

take a detour to discuss what

you think. It's true that

milk has been very demonized, let's say, over the

last 20

years, sometimes rightly, sometimes wrongly. Tell

us a bit about it. So,

indeed, dairy products are

often accused of all sorts of things, but in our

opinion, we

really need to put things into perspective.

Dairy products can be both

our best friends and our best

allies. In fact, this famous

probiotic yogurt, which we

also talk about a lot in our book where there's the

recipe, well, that's truly a

new therapeutic food, in

fact, which will be extremely valuable

in providing sources of

natural probiotics, a kind of almost

complete food supplement, because we'll find

sources of lactobacilli and

bifidobacteria, which are absolutely

fundamental and essential in a

healthy microbiota. And very often,

unfortunately, we see this when we do

microbiota analyses, etc.,

unsurprisingly, in people who have

problems... I have digestive issues and so on, with depletion of

lactobacilli and bipidobacteria families.

How do you perform these analyses, by the

way? Microbiota analysis,

salt analysis, okay? And so, to get

back to dairy products,

the problem is that

milk, when it comes from the animal,

is actually teeming with life. It's a

living food that contains

probiotics, enzymes, and vitamins.

It's true that milk contains

lactose and

casein. Lactose is the

milk sugar, and casein is the

milk protein. The problem is that

when milk

is collected, it's pasteurized. This

kills all the probiotics,

enzymes, and vitamins, resulting in

milk that is

extremely high in lactose.

Natural probiotics and enzymes feed on

lactose, so the very act of

pasteurizing the milk leads to...

Milk devoid of

life will lack

beneficial probiotics

for our microbiota, but on the contrary, it

will be extremely rich in lactose.

Lactose, a complex sugar, is very

difficult to digest; breaking down this

large sugar molecule will make it

completely indigestible.

Therefore, dairy products should not only

be raw to preserve

all the life and

probiotics they contain, but

they must also be

fermented. This

fermentation process allows for the pre-

digesting of lactose and

casein. This is why

people who are truly

intolerant to dairy products

tolerate probiotic yogurt very well, thanks to

its long

fermentation process. They also tolerate

unpasteurized cheeses like Gruyère, Comoé, and

Parmesan, which are cheeses

with a long fermentation process,

and this poses no

problem for them. Conversely, when we have

industrially pasteurized dairy products, it's a disaster, as we clearly

see in terms of

digestion. Even in

terms of joint pain,

headaches, and skin problems, there's

a world of difference.

You might say some people

could hear us saying, "Well, the

solution is to drink organic,

lactose-free milk, for example.

Could that be part of the solution, even if it's

not fermented? Is that

already better?" Not at all, because what I

often explain in

consultations is that with

lactose-free milk or lactose-free dairy products, we

unfortunately get a

double whammy. That is to say, while we wo

n't immediately identify the

digestive discomforts that we can

directly attribute to lactose,

and this is extremely insidious,

we'll get inflammation. It's a

silent inflammation, a so-called

Basal's inflammation, which is caused precisely by

casein, the famous milk protein.

The milk absolutely must have been

fermented for this casein to be

pre-digested. It's no longer

inflammatory or

irritating, which is interesting. So,

I'm perhaps drawing a

crude parallel for nutritionists, but we

see that in the

issue of soy, we find, although it's

not at all the same origin

since one is plant-based

and the other animal-based, a somewhat similar

phenomenon: that there are

many people who can't tolerate

soy, but when it's

fermented, they tolerate it very well. Is

fermentation, then, a

solution in many areas? I do

n't know if you have an opinion on this. Yes,

exactly, fermentation

really makes food

much more digestible. In fact, there's

really something that's a

typical example of this: bread.

Bread is a food

that many people have a lot of

trouble digesting. We always blame it all on

gluten, when in fact, it's

essentially the problem with the

production of the PIM (Plain Insulated Meal). We could

also talk about the quality of the grains,

but That's another topic altogether, and actually, going

back to real sourdough

bread the old-fashioned way, with a

long fermentation, makes it

incredibly digestible because

the fermentation predigests

the gluten and also the

starch. Starch is a bit like

lactose; it's the sugar in

grains, and gluten is a bit like

casein; it's the protein

in grains. It's the same principle with

cabbage, for example.

Most people say, "Oh dear,

I can't stand cabbage at all; it gives me

bloating,"

and so on. Well, when you

ferment it, you get something like

raw, lacto-fermented sauerkraut, which

we also suggest in our

book because it's truly

a superfood—therapeutic and

probiotic—it generally goes down very easily.

Sauerkraut even has properties that can

treat

gastric ulcers or really help

restore good acidity. Gastric and

digestive, it's really night

and day compared to raw cabbage.

Cooking it another way...

can we buy it already fermented? That

works for me too, or do we always have to make it

ourselves? We can mix it up,

Magalie. We can buy it already

made, but there's one condition: it has

n't been pasteurized immediately afterward

to allow for

longer preservation, which is often of interest to

manufacturers. And also, be careful about the

type of packaging it was in,

because if it's

plastic, it's not a high-quality material; it's

porous, and therefore

contamination can occur. Yes, so if

we continue along this

thread, since we were with you, Magalie, on this topic of

daily balance, we talked about breakfast, which led

us to talk about lactose. By the

way, how long should a good

fermentation last? How

long should it take? Since you were talking about

bread, at a minimum, but really the absolute minimum,

4 hours... We generally

recommend either during the day or at

night, okay, very good. So,

since we're talking about cereals, we'll

also look at carbohydrates and

perhaps revisit starch,

which you mentioned, because there's a

very interesting point to make on that

subject. I don't know who wants to tackle it, so to speak. It's perfect timing, starch—we might even

talk about it as a glue, that's

true, that's true. And if

we follow this thread

of the day, we arrive at

lunchtime, and often, in our

habits and what we've learned to do, we absolutely

need starchy foods on our

plate to

feel full. And here's another great

idea that's actually a bad one, because these

cereals, which haven't undergone

fermentation, will be extremely

difficult to digest. So, for example,

pasta, for example, rice,

even if it's gluten-free, are still

foods that are rich in starch and

high in carbohydrates, and that will

disrupt our energy and our

fluidity. throughout the day, and this can

disrupt digestion,

since there's also the issue of

quantity to consider. We

tend to focus our

attention on the plate when we

see pasta dishes in restaurants;

it's just pasta, a tiny

bit of tomato sauce, and that's it.

So there's a big problem with imbalance. We're going to bring meaning back to the plate by highlighting

quality, easily digestible protein.

We've talked about meat, and we can also talk

about fish, again of very good

quality, preferably wild-caught. Be careful with

all the recent scandals, like the one we had with

tuna, so we'll

look for smaller fish. And once we

have this good protein, we'll add

unlimited vegetables to the plate, playing with

seasonality to bring color

and texture. These vegetables need to

be consumed in large quantities to

nourish our gut microbiota, since their

fiber serves as food for

beneficial bacteria. So we have two

very important foods in this, and what

Sophie and I love to do is... Since we

're very, very food-loving, we add a

good sauce, paying a little

attention to the good

fats we absolutely want to

add to the plate. There, you can hear the

food photographer speaking. Actually, I have

an idea; I already have a

recipe in my head, taking shape.

What is this recipe? We

admit it, we can hear her talking. I

love it! So, I'm visualizing my

beautiful salmon fillet that I can

just have seared. We're lucky

in Switzerland to have local salmon

that isn't contaminated by

heavy metals or antibiotics, so

I love making a small salmon fillet.

Yes, because salmon—let's talk about it—hello,

all the scandals surrounding

salmon! Hence the importance of

really insisting that we choose

and select the

quality of the food we put

on our plates. It's a game changer

in our daily lives. We know that in

Nordic countries, the

risk-benefit ratio has fallen... In the other direction,

especially for pregnant or breastfeeding women, right?

Regarding the salmon, yeah, absolutely, absolutely, so

impeccable quality. We'll add our

vegetables. We can add a little

fennel, a little broccoli,

why not a little cabbage? I

still have some in my garden. I love

adding a bit of crunch to this

dish. We'll steam them

gently to preserve as many

nutrients as possible, and we'll make what we

call an express sauce with

nuts to replace the cream you

find in stores, which

is really hard to digest and

pro-inflammatory. We soak

our cashews overnight so that

the next day we can

rinse them and blend them with our

famous bone broth, which is making a comeback.

So we have the equivalent

of a handful of nuts for a

cup of bone broth. We blend it, add

some herbs—I'm thinking of garlic—to

accompany the salmon, and in 2 minutes flat,

you really have... A sauce

that looks exactly like

cream, even though it contains no

dairy at all, is

generously poured over the plate, and suddenly

you have something

healthy: enough protein for

long-term satiety to keep you going

until dinner without any problems, and

a very gentle digestion.

Cashews, in particular, are sometimes the

tricky thing about

food—we sometimes

rush to buy an ingredient and then

realize it's not so

good for us after all. So I think we shouldn't

overdo it with cashews either.

It seems to me that

women who shell cashews

have a lot of

acidity problems with them.

We collaborate with, among others,

an ethical brand, and we like to

highlight their products because there

can also be an

ethical way to harvest cashews,

and I know they use

cashew oil. Precisely to

protect our hands and indeed to prevent it from being

corrosive, so again, it's good to take that into account.

If we

really want to go all the way, you're absolutely right, it's

also important to consider that. But again, there are

more ethical ways to eat even

cashews.

Listening to us, we might say, "Yes, but I

have two children,"

or "I'm in a hurry, I do

n't have the time, I don't have the

means." That's also something that always comes up: is it about

doing better but less?

That's also one of your

recommendations. I imagine you get that

question every day in your

practice, right? You've certainly seen

hundreds of patients between the two of you. Yes, that's

exactly it. It seems like it's about doing

better but less. And

then, above all, when we add it all up

and remove

processed foods and go back to simpler, more whole foods, you see...

Typically,

to make broth, well, it's

EOS (Electrolyte Extracts), uh, that's it, it doesn't cost much,

see the butcher, they'll

give them to you. You have to make sure of

the origin because it's true that

EOS can also, once again,

you can find

harmful ingredients in

poor quality meat, absolutely, but even

organic EOS isn't something that's going to

cost a lot, for example. Also, for

meat, we'd rather recommend

fatty cuts for stewing, that's also

much cheaper than fillet,

things like that. Vegetables,

you can definitely buy them in bulk

from the producer, where there are still some tricks. The

same goes for oilseeds, if you

buy them in bulk, well, it will cost

less than in small

packages where there's a lot of

plastic and so on. You have to be well

organized, that's it, I think there's

really an issue with

organization and there are some tricks involved.

So obviously, that

will vary depending on where you are. I live there and so on,

but I think there are always

solutions, and in the

end, it's also very expensive to be

unhealthy and to go from

therapist to therapist or to

medical appointments. So, of course, if

I continue on this topic,

since we're following the threads, it's

because we're kind of branching out,

so each time we provide

details about starch and carbohydrates.

We said to take it easy, right? Exactly,

it's the quantity that will be

problematic, and also the way

we prepare them, since we've

seen that

sourdough bread contains cereals, but

thanks to the long fermentation, we

reverse this pro-inflammatory

and indigestible tendency. So there are always

solutions, and for example, the sourdough story. What's

incredible is that we don't

stop with just

preparing bread; we can make

pasta, cakes, and

cookies. So we can really

integrate it into our daily lives, and it will

be a new... A member of the family

who will allow us to make all

the flour-based recipes we

love so much, but which will

become super digestible and gentle on

our

stomachs. Sophie, perhaps a little word on

lipids. We may have

talked a little less about these famous "good

fats" or "bad fats," in

quotes. Sorting through the good fats and

bad fats—bad fat is

n't always what we imagine it to be—that's

exactly it. There's a real issue

with fats because, well, very

often when we talk about

raw butter, clarified butter, or

animal fats like

duck fat, beef tallow, Sindou, and so on,

people often look at them

with wide eyes. And in reality, these are

the fats that are

the most digestible but

also the most stable when cooked.

They don't oxidize,

unlike vegetable fats.

I'm not talking about

olive oil or coconut oil; I'm thinking more of

rapeseed oil, for example, where we hear a lot of... It's said that we should

consume rapeseed oil every

day, and so on. Well,

unfortunately,

not everyone is able to metabolize

rapeseed oil properly.

Rapeseed oil contains

plant-based omega-3s, and

our bodies use

omega-3s in the form of PA, DPA,

and DHA. These are the omega-3s we

find, for example, in fish, and

they are not at all comparable

to the omega-3s found in

rapeseed oil, which need to be

converted. There's a whole cascade of

enzymes that has to occur to

convert

the omega-3s found

in rapeseed oil,

camelina oil, flaxseed oil, walnut oil,

and so on, so that

our bodies can

extract the EPA, DPA, and DHA that they

can use directly. The problem is that

when We have a

disrupted gut microbiota when we have

nutritional deficiencies, if we're a little stressed, and

also aging.

Aging, in reality, is

terrible, isn't it? Because we can say that from our

thirties onwards, we can already

start to have these

problems, even though we It's not

old at all, of course, but there you have it, there's all this

that's going to make Queen do the

conversion, it's not going to work well, or

not at all, and so

consuming cola oil in every way

imaginable, well, in fact, it's going to

be completely counterproductive. That's why

we're really going to

favor so-called

saturated fats or even coconut oil, for

example. You have a little favorite,

which is... which is... yes,

Guy, because it's true that it's

something that's easy to find. For

example, I'm saying for our

listeners, if you don't know, it has an

Indian origin initially, yes, and then

finally... well, Guy has an

Indian origin, but for example, in Switzerland,

clarified butter is something that, at the

time, everyone cooked with it,

our grandmothers

cooked with it.

And, in fact, how do we make

this Guy butter? Well, we're going to

let the

butter melt... you're going to let the... Over to

Magalie, yes, what I was going to say is, I'm going to talk about

Magalie's bar dishes.

So, Magalie, who was speaking earlier,

we'll let her tell us about

Guy's butter. Okay, Guy, so again,

we're going to make sure the butter

is of impeccable quality. We're going to melt it over very, very

low heat in a saucepan, and we'll see as time passes. So, after half an hour, 20 minutes, half an hour, we'll see clumps forming and settling at the bottom of the pan. So, on the surface, we'll have a very light, very golden,

smooth, and clean butter, and at the bottom, a

rather whitish mass. The challenge will be to

pour this

clarified butter into small glass jars,

collecting only the

transparent part, which has a beautiful golden hue. The

clumps are actually a

reflection of the casein and lactose

contained in the butter. Hence the interest in

preparing this recipe, because on the

one hand... It's very, very stable when

cooked, unlike butter which can

heat up and then burn very quickly. And

secondly, it's much more

digestible and completely compatible with

our microbiota. Perfect! We have the

whole recipe, so we're nearing the end of

this show. We're passionate

about this topic; there's so much to say, isn't there? We

see, we're pulling at threads. We could do

almost an hour-long show on each

theme. We've talked about

animal proteins, we've talked about lipids, we've

talked about carbohydrates, we've talked a little about

the food plate. Perhaps if we

want to end our day, shall we move on to

the evening meal? And then we

might conclude a little there. Magalie, would

you like to give us a little bit about

the plate? And then Sophie will

gladly add to that. In the evening, we'll try

not to overload our digestion. We'll

try not to eat too late. That's

already a first tip to give

our body time to digest

before going to bed. And we're going to

prepare a Swiss dish. Gendineo, huh? Yes, well, that's perfect, perfect!

6:00 PM,

6:30 PM, or in France a little less, and in

Paris, let's not even talk about it, that's for sure, that's for sure.

But in any case, space out

meals as much as going to

bed. In any case, 4 hours would be good,

3 or 4 hours would be ideal. So for this

evening meal, we like to prepare

a nice, complete soup. That is to say, we'll

take the vegetables from

our bone broth to really have an

anti-waste philosophy where we take the

bones from the bone broth, we'll take

any meat from the chicken that has

boiled, whether it's thighs or wings, we

take the vegetables, we

take the aromatic garnish, and we

blend it with the amount of broth

that suits us to get a

more or less smooth texture. We'll

accompany this lovely soup with a

piece of sourdough bread, and since we're very, very

greedy again, what we like is to

add... Sprinkle

this slice of bread with a little

Gruyère cheese that you just melt

in the oven so the

fat doesn't get too caramelized. We don't want a

Maillard reaction, we don't want it to

brown, but at least just a little

melted. Then you make a small open-faced

sandwich; it's ideal. It's

ultra-alkalizing, ultra-

digestible, and delicious. Be

careful with the high heat. By the way,

your book has a foreword, and you have

several authors, including

Marion

Capelan, who favors

gentle cooking with her famous steamer, the

Vitaliseur de Marion Capelan.

So, I'm not here to promote it

specifically, but I have to say

I can't do without it.

I can't cook without the

Vitaliseur, because we're

really talking about cooking times that are quite low, under

92 degrees, I think. 92? What about

98? 98 seems a

bit lower, I think. Her magazine

It's called

5 95 of

95°g, who can top that? Who can top that? Marion will

obviously come to this microphone one day to

talk about it herself, so that's

important. You mentioned

Mayar's reaction, so we avoid overly

aggressive cooking methods. It's true that even

when making tarts, you have

tart dough preparations, how do you

bake them afterward? At what

temperature? The lowest possible, 160

degrees works very well. And what we

also need to

consider is that these aren't

cooking methods we'll

use every day. As you

rightly recommended,

gentle steaming is really our

preferred cooking method, one we use

daily. And from time to time, to

change things up and vary the textures, we can treat ourselves to

a little seared salmon or

a small oven-baked dish. But we

really need to have a global view of

our diet and not just focus

on what happens in a single day. Yes,

and especially regarding cooking methods, what's

extremely important

is... There really is a hierarchy

in terms of digestibility because

very often when we have

digestive problems we focus on certain

foods, but as I explained, while

some raw foods are

difficult to digest, the

cooking method

used can make them much

harder to digest, even

pro-inflammatory, and we're

not always aware of this.

Sometimes people will

say, "Oh, I ate chicken,

but it didn't agree with me at all," even though it

might have been pan-fried chicken.

If they had eaten chicken in

broth or

poached chicken, then it would have gone down very well.

So, we often do

n't give enough

importance to cooking, but it's really very

important. And then there's the added complication of

not only cooking at high

temperatures, but also the addition of

flour and a lot of

sugar. So, we're dealing with a

combination that isn't ideal, and not

necessarily the right cooking methods

either. If you use

sunflower oil or a

slightly lower quality cooking oil, it

will also be pro-inflammatory and

very indigestible, which means that we should have some

basic knowledge of all these food combinations when we're young. That's what we're

realizing because,

listening to you, we're thinking, do you need to be a

nutritionist or dietician to

know how to eat? But what's

really crazy is that it's something we're not

taught, even though it

seems so

fundamental. And it's something we're not taught,

and that's also one

of the missions

we set for ourselves with our

book. That's why we didn't want it to be

just a cookbook;

we really wanted it to be a guide. Oh,

what is the science? Yes, exactly. At the

beginning, there's a small

theory section that we specifically

wanted to be

accessible to everyone. It's not something...

Whether we wanted a

scientific or other approach, because we

really want to share this, it's

so important. If you

agree, we'll also publish the

microbiota-friendly pyramid because it's

true that it's also interesting to keep in mind,

and it can

help with education. So, in conclusion,

we've gone over our airtime.

Perhaps for those with a sweet tooth, we'll finish

because we've obviously talked about

carbohydrates, but perhaps we could focus

on sugar itself,

and especially that famous taste of sugar which

is so addictive.

Sophie, would you like to tell us?

And perhaps Magalie will

share her favorite recipe with us. Yes,

sugar is a real topic

because we

absolutely want to avoid large

sugar molecules that are

difficult to digest and that can

potentially stagnate in

our intestines and feed

pathogenic flora. We saw this with lactose,

which is a complex sugar, and we saw it with

starch, which is... It's also a

complex sugar that's very difficult to digest, and that's

also the case with

sucrose. So what we're

going to recommend for the gut microbiota

is really the use of

simple sugars, which we find, for

example, in fruits. So there's no

problem

eating fruit, even if you have a

disrupted gut microbiota or

digestive issues, if you tolerate them well. We'll

also be using

dried fruits a lot, like dates. There's a

great recipe—

maybe Magalie will talk about it—for

homemade sneckers and things like that. And

we're often asked, "But you don't use

any sugar?" If I want to

use sugar, well, as a sweetener,

what we can use is,

for example, honey, which is

truly a treasure of nature, rich

in enzymes, vitamins, and minerals. We'll

also have, although less local,

maple syrup, which is also

an extremely interesting natural product

from a nutritional point of view,

and these two won't

feed pathogenic flora. So we'll

also have coconut sugar, which

is generally very well tolerated.

Agave syrup, well, no, not that one at all. It's

really a false friend,

as we call them, because

agave syrup is extremely

rich in fructose, and fructose has to

be metabolized by the liver to be

transformed into glucose, which is

used by the body. In

fact, in the long run, this will

create hepatic steatosis, the infamous

fatty liver, and that's really a

very bad idea, especially since

when you have a disrupted gut microbiota, you

tend to have a lot of

endotoxins, toxins in your

body that the liver has to manage.

So the liver is generally already struggling a bit,

it's already working a little harder

when you have

intestinal dysbiosis. So if you add

agave syrup to it and make its

job even more difficult, then

you can very quickly feel the

discomfort.

So, you've given examples of

substitutions, which is interesting.

For example, pasta, you also say

in your book that it can be replaced

with vegetable pasta,

spaghetti squash, or almond milk. We can't really

call them milks anymore,

but they're definitely

plant-based drinks. You mentioned cashew cream earlier as a

replacement for

cream or béchamel sauce.

You also suggest cauliflower rice or broccolini rice.

You mentioned kale, all with essential oils. I

'm a big fan of kale. Do you have

a kale chip recipe? Let's

finish with Magal's recipe with

dates. Maybe another one, or another one?

No, but I know Sophie is particularly

fond of this

recipe, so we'll give it her due. And

since we're talking about dates and sneakers,

we can't just leave it like that, mouths watering. We have

a solution to all the

problems, and our sneakers

are made with three ingredients: we

spread fresh dates, which we then arrange

in a patchwork pattern on a baking

sheet, and on top of that, we add our... We

generously use high-quality peanuts, and then

simply pour

sugar-free chocolate over them.

We sprinkle a little fleur de

sel or dried flowers on top to embellish

the dish and create a truly

pleasing visual experience. Now, people will

say, "But your recipe is a calorie bomb!"

Not necessarily. If

it's digestible, it doesn't matter.

We don't care about calories, that's

because they're not

fashionable anymore. Calories are no longer in

vogue, and once again, it's

the quantity that makes the poison. It's

better to have a small piece. Again,

these are fruit sugars,

dates, and fiber and

minerals. So it's a thousand

times better to devour this little piece

of homemade peanut brittle than to buy

processed snacks,

which are indigestible. So, your recipe seems quite

addictive to me.

Ah, you'll see. Yes, and what

I also wanted to say is that if

we... tends to

overlook cereals, uh, well,

we still need

carbohydrates, that's exactly it. After energy,

we can also get it from proteins and

lipids, but let's say we're not going to

have a hyper-

carbohydrate diet, even if we eat

Magali's delicious sneckers. Thank you so much

for this clarification,

and a thousand thanks especially to both of you,

Sophie Balestra and Magali from Prod Estre, for coming to the

Metamorphosis microphone. You were two guests,

so we took a little more time

to go over everything properly. You'll be back, I'm sure.

I'll remind you of the

title of this magnificent book, a beautiful

book, we can say it, it's the case to

say it: Microbiot Friendly, published by

Erol. We obviously find your

news on your social networks:

Nutribiote, I think for Sophie, that's right, that's right,

and Nawaili for

Magali, it's pronounced like this, that's it, Nawaili Nawaili.

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