Dr. K Unpacks Narcissistic Parenting

*music*

It falls apart, there's not a heart to beat there. It falls apart, there's not a heart to have. It falls apart, there's not a heart to beat there.

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It falls apart, there's not a heart to beat there. It falls apart, there's not a heart to have. It falls apart, there's not a heart to beat there. It falls apart, there's not a heart to have. But the intent was there, I swear he said, I said something, no he thought it's true. It falls apart, there's not a heart to beat there.

It falls apart if there's not a heart to have.

One, two, four, five.

It's all you've ever known.

All righty chat, let's get started.

Welcome to another Healthy Gamer GG stream. My name is Dr. Alok Kanodja. Just a reminder that everything we discuss on stream today is intended to be taken for educational and entertainment purposes only. Nothing is intended to be taken as medical advice, so if y'all have a medical concern or question, please go see a licensed professional. Yeah, so today we're going to be talking about narcissistic parenting. I am super excited about today's lecture.

Yeah, I really have a lot to share and I really hope it will help y'all. So every now and then we, you know, we get a lecture opportunity that, I mean, sometimes we just like talk about stuff, but I feel like today's is going to be really important. I guess every day is important, but today just feels really important because I think there's a lot of healing that needs to happen. And I think a lot of the ways that we approach healing from narcissistic parenting is not ideal.

for lack of a better term, and that's okay. But I'd love to offer you all kind of my perspective on it. But before we dive into that, just a couple of super quick announcements. One is we're still looking for voicemails.

So we're going to be doing, I think, a voicemail stream on Friday. I think people really enjoyed it. I really enjoyed it. So if you all have a voicemail that you want to submit, it's kind of like Q&A. Like, we want it to be under 90 seconds. Ask your questions. Chances are other people have that question, too. So please submit your voicemails. Really looking forward to hearing them. Second thing is we have a narcissistic parenting workshop run by Dr. Honda, which is coming up, I believe, within a week, in just about a week.

There are still some spots available if y'all are. So just so y'all know, Dr. Honda is an expert in personality disorders. He's also like super warm and loving, which is not exactly what this this lecture is going to be. He's incredibly insightful. The reason that we're working with him is because y'all love him. I love him. Y'all love him. And he's really good at this stuff.

So one of the things we've noticed at Healthy Gamer is that I'm not an expert in everything. And while I think I can put together a banger of a lecture, I'm not quite sure what kind of workshop I would put together. And we have some cool stuff to show y'all. So first of all, if y'all are curious about the workshop, Dr. Honda on his own channel, Psychology in Seattle, put together like an 11-minute video on his channel. Strongly recommend y'all check that out.

Um, and, uh, yeah, like, so if you guys are curious about it and want to hear more about it directly from the man himself, the man, the myth, the legend, um, and then this is the first version of the workbook. So I've been warned to tell, I've been told to, to warn you guys, it's going to get better. It hasn't made the design pass. This is just the structuring pass, um,

So the reason we put together workshops is because we can do a lecture today. I really hope this will help you all, but many of you all may need to do a lot deeper work, a lot more applicable work. Like what do you actually do? What are the steps? What are the reps that you need to put in? So today's lecture is going to be like, here is how to exercise. And then the workshop is going to be now do the exercise. So, you know, understanding like, you know, understanding family roles, like,

sort of diagnosing, that's not really the right word, but like really figuring out what's going on in the surface behavior, what makes that hard. You know, there's a lot of good stuff here. Let me look at, there's one or two things. You know, I think there's like, like role transformation is a really good example, right? So the hero golden child, like learn to accept good enough, set boundaries, delegate. So like, there's going to be a lot of stuff in your psychology that,

Um, the scapegoat, the problem child, right? So if you have a narcissistic parent, there's going to be a lot of the, you've been conditioned in certain ways to believe certain things about yourself. So this is just going to be a really deep dive into understanding narcissism.

Basically, like how what's going on in your mind, what's going on in in the family dynamics, really kind of like laying everything out, charting everything out so that you can start to behave in a more healthy and appropriate manner so that you can manage your parents well.

So just so y'all know, like, you know, the workshop is I think it's about 200 bucks. If y'all are an AOE healer tier, you save 15%. So I think the AOE healer tier is like $15 or $16. So it's going to be a net positive if y'all want to go ahead and sign up.

But the workshops are quite intense and they're quite valuable. So they tend to be, the reason we do them is because they tend to be some of the highest rated things that we produce. So if y'all are interested, definitely check it out. Okay. Highly, highly, highly recommend. All right. So let's talk about narcissistic parents. So we're going to start off with looking at something. Okay.

I cut my mom off three years before she passed. So whenever the end of her life came and there was only two spots to go into the hospital room, that was given to two members of my family and not me because I didn't want it to be me. The sad and harsh reality is that my mom had died

years ago to me. I knew that I was never going to get what I needed from her emotionally as a mother and so I decided to just leave her in the dust because that's what she did to me and I needed to get on with my life and start to create something where I was gonna be in the same rut that she was all of her life.

It's not your responsibility to take credit for somebody's actions and how they treated you. Probably one of the character traits I remember most about my mom is just how selfish she was. She was selfish and a bit of a narcissist, which for me wasn't great. Because there was this really weird layer of jealousy to it. And I had to get out. Okay, so we're going to talk about this. So...

To start off with, my perspective on dealing with narcissistic parents is, I want to say, going to be a little bit different. So I've noticed that there's a lot of content creators who are experts in the field of NPD, really know what they're talking about. And one of the things that I think is sort of a mixed bag is many people, many psychologists and stuff who will talk about dealing with narcissistic parents come from a place of personal experience.

And this is awesome in many ways, right? So when I talk about addiction, I come from a place of personal experience. But what I found is that when we listened, a lot of the way we want to respond to narcissistic parents is very angry, right? These people hurt us.

I never have to forgive them. I don't need them in my life. I'm going to cut them out of my life. Like we sort of have this sort of angry approach to narcissism, which is sometimes what we need to survive. Right. So when you're setting asshole boundaries on your your narcissistic parent, like I'm a set boundaries. Fuck you.

I'm never coming home for the holiday. Right? So there's so much anger and rage that we have when we have a narcissistic parent that we tap into that, right? We sort of bring it out. We let it be our fuel with our relationship with them. And I think it can be incredibly effective. Oftentimes, that is what we need. We need this deep pit of anger and resentment to fuel the weaponry.

that we go into battle with. As long as I can maintain that anger, I will be able to set boundaries. And I'm not saying that this is bad. I think like many people advocate for this. And I think the reason that this kind of content floats to the surface, right? So if I'm a mental health content creator and I say, fuck your narcissistic parent, set boundaries. Yeah. Like, yeah, yeah, yeah.

that is going to resonate emotionally so deeply with the hurt that you have. Now, I think it's effective. It's not my style. So today what we're going to do is do something a little bit strange. So we're going to approach this the way that I like to approach things. Understanding, understanding, understanding. Once you understand what is going on with your parent, once you understand what is going on with you, once you understand how this machine works,

It will allow you to move forward, in my opinion, not in the best way. I'm not saying it's the best, but it'll be pretty damn effective. Okay? Because I'm not an expert in this stuff. So someone else may, maybe the angry way is better. I'm not saying it's not. The other thing that I'm going to encourage, so if we want understanding, one of the key things that we need is empathy. So this lecture is going to be very empathy focused. Now,

Does that mean be kind to your parent? Absolutely not. So we are going to use the word empathy in its technical definition. Empathy is the ability to put yourself in someone else's shoes. Now, oftentimes, when we are empathic, that results in kindness.

I'm not suggesting y'all be kind. I'm suggesting that you understand the mind of your enemy, that you use Sun Tzu's art of war, that you put yourself in their shoes so you see how they see, you think how they think. And if you understand how they think and how they see the world, your ability to deal with it will be way better.

And I think the biggest problem that a lot of children of narcissism have is that you have, generally speaking, let's say a non-pathologic personality structure, and they have a pathologic personality structure, which means that when you try to interpret their actions, you're interpreting it from a personality structure that is healthy.

And that results in a misinterpretation, which causes you all kinds of pain and suffering. When your narcissistic parent says, oh my God, I'm so sorry. I hurt you so much. I should have never done that. Your normal ass personality structure is like, oh yeah, oh, thank you so much. I've been waiting to hear these words from you.

And you're not interpreting it from their personality structure. Their personality structure says, oh shit, this person is pulling away. What do I need to do to rope them back in? And they will say whatever they need to to rope you back in. Their whole point is to have you go, oh my God, it's so beautiful. Thank you so much. Don't fall for it. Once you understand what their moves are, and the best way to do that is understanding and empathy, you will not fall for them, okay?

So we don't need to be kind. We're going to try to be compassionate. And here's the reason why. See, you may have a lot of anger towards your narcissistic parent, and that can fuel you when you set boundaries. But deep down, when you hurt them, that can feel just. But if you're a good human being, that may come with some amount of guilt.

That may come with some amount of grief and loss. Like when we use negative emotions to fight negative emotions, it can work, but it's not ideal. So this is going to sound a touch sociopathic, but the best way to punish someone is with love.

Right? The moment that I feel good, I feel correct, I feel kind and compassionate about setting boundaries on you. If I'm operating from a place of kindness and compassion, anytime you have an abusive parent who believes they are doing right by their child, the abuse that they are capable of skyrockets.

I'm doing this for the good of the world. That's why I'm going to take your particular racial ethnicity and I'm going to lump them into a camp together. And then we're going to do all kinds of terrible stuff. Right. So the worst sins on the planet, in my opinion, I'm not a historian. If you disagree, by all means, tell me. In my opinion, the worst sins on the planet are committed out of like a desire for good.

So we're not saying that you should commit a bunch of sins, but what I'm saying is that the strength that you will get operating from a place of positivity is immense, right? So the moment that you approach your parent with compassion and empathy and you say, hey, I really do care about you, but I just can't have you in my life. Like, I'm sorry that things worked out that way. I wish things, I really do wish things could be different, but I can't have you in my life.

The strength of boundary setting that you will be capable of when you are coming from a place of positivity is, in my general experience, way more sustainable, way healthier than a place of negativity. When I'm trying to set boundaries on my son or my daughter's spouse or boyfriend or girlfriend or whatever, operating from a place of love gives me an immense amount of strength.

Okay, so that's kind of like where I'm coming from. And it's not that we have to like, this is where I want to be really clear. Empathy and compassion doesn't mean being a doormat doesn't mean being listening to them. It doesn't mean not hurting them. Right. So we're going to hurt that we may hurt them immensely, but we're not responsible for their hurt. We're going to operate in the healthiest manner possible. Okay, I think let go of the resentment, let go of the anger. There's, in my opinion, there's a different way to do it. Okay.

So let's start with understanding. So the first thing that we have to understand is what is their personality structure? So narcissistic personality disorder is something that's part of something called, this is an outdated concept now, but I love it. In personality disorders, there are three, what we call clusters, cluster A, cluster B, and cluster C.

So narcissistic personality disorder is part of cluster B personality disorders, which also include things like sociopathic personality disorder, antisocial personality disorder, and borderline personality disorder. So the reason that we lump these together is because they share a fundamental personality characteristic, and that is a malformed or unclear, unarticulated sense of self. So on the inside...

They don't feel good. There's not a whole lot going on in there. So what does that mean? So if you sort of think about like your behaviors, right? As you like, I'm walking through the world. Like right now I'm giving a lecture. And as I'm giving a lecture, I have a sense of who I am on the inside. Like if you take me out of this lecture, I don't cease to become a person. So people with NPD and BPD, right?

and to a certain degree, antisocial personality disorder, who they are is very tightly connected to their environment. So if people call me brilliant, then I'm a good person. If people call me shitty, then they're wrong. And I'm still a good person. I'm a great person. They just don't know how great I am. They don't understand. They're misdiagnosing what my problems are. They don't understand that when I made this mistake, I was actually doing it for this reason, whatever.

Right. So they're fundamentally the problem with NPD is that they have a poor understanding or clarification of who they are on the inside. This is where if we look at research from things like mentalization based therapy. So I don't know if this is going to make sense, but it's like it feels so common sense to us. And this is such a huge problem because people with NPD don't have this. So like, you know, when you do something like when you do something, you do it for a reason. Right.

Right? Is that kind of like, it's like so simple. Like, oh yeah, the reason that I'm drinking this is because I'm thirsty. So what this means is that, let me actually illustrate this way. Okay, let's take a look at it this way. So, if I'm a human, and I act, if I take an action, I, we all hopefully fundamentally understand the reason that I'm taking this action is because I have internal triggers. Right? I have hunger, I have thirst, I have desire for meaning,

I want to experience new things. And the thing is, if I ask you why you did this thing, you will talk about this stuff. You understand that there's an internal dimension of self that is connected to how you act. Here's the crazy thing. For people with NPD, this dimension is not visible. They have no idea.

So I was talking to someone who is incredibly narcissistic in my family. They'd ruptured connections with everyone except for like three or four people. I was one of the people that was left. And then as if y'all know, so I got pissed with them, right? So eventually what ends up happening is they drive, the more bridges they burn, the more their psychological pressure, their needs get put, the more stress they put on the remaining bridges. So they were in the process of burning their bridge with me.

And then when I was like, I was talking to them about it and I was like, look, why did you say this? What was going on that led you to say this thing? And all they could focus on is I should have never said the thing. I'm so sorry I said the thing. And I was like, forget about that. I don't care that you said the thing. What I want to know is like in your mind, what was going on?

Like, what were you thinking when you said this thing? And they could not give me an answer. And for 45 minutes, I tried to understand what their internal experience of this conversation was. I couldn't. Then my mom came to me and she was like, look, this person is not capable of understanding. They don't know. They don't understand the dimension that you're operating on. So this is really important to understand. This dimension is closed off to them.

Why is this important? Because when they act, when a narcissist hurts you, right? Here's you over here. And then now you're feeling sad because of this action. What is really painful is not the action itself. It is the implied meaning over here. It is the malice associated with the action. So what hurts us, this does 50% of the damage.

And this does 50% if we're lucky. Usually this is like 20% and this is 80%. So they don't have a good sense of what is going on inside them. I want y'all to think about your narcissistic parents like bots that are programmed. Their capacity for self-awareness is very low. So they're like bots.

And we're going to treat them like bots, not like people. If you treat a narcissistic parent like a person, and I don't mean like dehumanize them. What I mean is that if you assume that they have the capacity to have insight into your feelings, insight into their own feelings, insight into their motivations, and insight into your motivations, you're going to be in for trouble.

This is what I mean by empathy. They're like chat GPT. They may look like they care. They may sound like they care. They may look like they're paying attention. They may sound like they're paying attention, but there's nothing on the inside. That is honestly the best way to treat these people from your perspective. Understand that they're a bot. The moment that you understand that they're a bot and they're not operating in this way, right? All you see is the action. It will allow you a freedom to relate to them.

And that will be way more effective. So they don't have a good sense of internal drivers. Now, when you don't have a good sense of internal drivers, when you're unaware of your emotions, your drivers, who you are,

If I don't know who I am on the inside, if my inside is empty, this is my head, this is my body, okay? If this is empty, there's nothing in here, then the way that people treat me becomes way more important because then my identity is determined by my treatment and they don't have a clear sense of internal identity. So why does this become important for kids? This becomes important for kids because if I have no sense of internal identity, what I'm going to do is,

is claim you as my identity. You are now part of me. I don't know who I am. I don't feel who I am. Therefore, what determines who I am, you do. So this is how you become the golden child. This is how you become the scapegoat. Now, how can both of these things be possible? Let's understand. So narcissistic parents will use objects outside of themselves, especially their children, as things to blame,

So instead of blaming myself, I'm going to blame you as sources of pride, as sources of emotional regulation. If I don't feel good, since I don't know what I feel, so I'm blind on the inside. So normally, if you have self-awareness, if you say, oh my God, I'm feeling anxious today. If you are aware that there is anxiety on the inside, what you can do is act on that anxiety directly. Let me do some breathing.

But they don't know that. They don't know they feel anxious. They just feel anxious. And then what they do is they discover that when I feel anxious, there are actions that I can take. Like I'm going to control you, right? So I feel out of control over some part of my life. Therefore, I'm going to displace that feeling of lack of control onto your life. And I'm going to start applying all kinds of crazy controlling rules for you because I feel out of control.

And then the moment that I try to control your life, if you rebel, this is going to get fucking weird. Okay. So like, just follow me here. And if you guys don't, it's not your fault. It's my fault.

So now what I'm doing is I'm fucking externalizing this conflict of controlling my life onto you. So suddenly out of nowhere, I feel out of control. There's a psychological thing called displacement. I have no idea what the fuck is going on inside me. I come to you and I say, I'm going to control your life. Don't put that there. Fold your clothes this way. I'm going to take the door off the hand. No more door on your room. You do not get to control your space. I'm going to take control of your space. And then you being a regular human being are like, no, no.

And then you start to fight against me. And now what they've done is they're struggling to control themselves. They're struggling to control their life. And what have they done? They have evoked in you the exact conflict that they have within themselves. They've externalized the conflict. That's why it's so infuriating because they're pushing you

To the point where you fight against them. Because then, now it's like the conflict. The conflict used to be here. I can't control myself. Instead, I'm going to control you. I'm going to keep pushing you, keep pushing you, keep pushing you until you push back. Now we have a control battle that I know how to fight. And if I can win, then I feel way better about myself. Do you all follow this? Because if you don't, I can try to explain again. Right? The key thing here to understand about the narcissist is

is that you become a part of them. You become their ability to regulate emotions. Yeah, it's projection. It's all kinds of that crap. The key thing is that you and them become blended. They outsource parts of their identity to you. They outsource their emotional regulation to you. They outsource their shame to you.

What if they lose? Then they get infuriated and they double down. Y'all know what happens when they lose. What happens when your narcissistic parent loses? Make sense? Okay. So now the question, so this is the key thing. They don't have an internal sense of identity. So let's take a look at another post real quick.

I'm a 17 year old woman and digital art is my one calm happy thing, save for months from my part time job to buy a drawing tablet and styluses. My mom hates me having interests that don't involve her. Says things like why draw when you could help me or art doesn't make money. Yesterday came home from school and my art supplies were gone. Asked my mom and she said she threw them away because my room was too cluttered and I don't need distractions from school.

Started crying and she got angry, calling me dramatic. Said I was ungrateful and she was doing me a favor, helping me focus on real things. The tablet cost $300 from my many grocery store shifts. When I mentioned this, she said if I really cared, I would have taken better care of it.

My room wasn't messy. I keep art stuff organized in the desk drawer. She just wanted to hurt me because I spent time on something not involving her. Last year, she donated my guitar when I got good at playing, said it was too loud. Less than a year until college, counting down the days. Classic narcissistic behavior. There's one thing that this person gets wrong. She just wanted to hurt me because I spent time on something not involving her. That is incorrect. She doesn't want to hurt you.

She never wants to hurt you. Your narcissistic parent never wants to hurt you. They love you. They will hurt you. They will hurt you very, very easily, but they never want to hurt you. Here's what's going on. So remember, when I'm a narcissist, you become part of my identity. They don't want to hurt you. Maybe they do. Here's what happens. If you become an independent person and you step outside of their box, they don't have an identity left.

Then they become empty. They're not trying to hurt you. They're trying to keep you in the box. This is really important to understand. Because if you focus on they're trying to hurt me, you're going to miss the stuff. It's like, it's misdirection. You feel hurt, fair enough. Did they hurt you? Absolutely. Are they punishing you in some way for trying to be independent? Probably. They are probably trying to hurt you some.

Absolutely. So I'm wrong there. But the key thing that you all need to understand is what's driving them is here is their kid trying to individuate into guitar, trying to individuate into art. And if they individuate in this way, then I'm left behind. See, if you don't understand this, this is why I'm saying this. If you don't understand this, less than a year until college, counting down the days, right?

This person is making a critical strategic error. They assume that they're going to go to college. They assume that their narcissistic parent is going to let them go to college. They think that, oh my God, once I go to college, all of this will be over. It won't be over. It's just going to get worse. Do you all understand what I'm saying here? This is the mistake. Unless we understand what the psychology is...

We're going to get caught in frustrating struggles over and over and over again. You can go to college. We're going to show you how to go to college. But do you all understand? Like they're not trying to hurt you. They're trying to make you them. That's what they're doing. So once you understand that, things will get a lot easier, hopefully. Okay. So how do we understand the narcissistic parent? There are two words, right?

That we need to focus on. Jealousy and entitlement. Okay, let me just make sure. Okay. These are the two things that they're... These are the two things you should have in your mind when you're dealing with a narcissistic parent. So as a human being, as you start to individuate, they're like... They long... They see it happening to you. And they're like, they've never been able to do that. So...

I don't know if this makes sense. Like people will focus on hurt or anger or control or whatever. The primary thing that drives narcissistic parenting in my experience is actually jealousy. They hate that you're becoming like, they want that. They want that for themselves. And we can kind of see it here, right? So why draw when you could help me? Art doesn't make money. Hates having interests that don't involve her. So there's absolutely a process of individuation.

But there's also intense, intense jealousy. And if you think it's like, and this is why, like, I don't know if this makes sense, but when you are trying to understand your narcissistic parent, if you don't, just every time they're doing something, just pretend they're jealous of you. And how would you deal with someone who is jealous of you? So this goes to all kinds of other kinds of interesting behaviors. So the first is be careful about advertising your wins, right?

The more you win, the more jealous they'll become. Okay? Now, I'm not saying that you can't advertise your wins or that you shouldn't be proud. Just be aware that the more pride you feel, the more jealous they will become and the more it will activate their behaviors. The second thing is, if you can make your victory their victory, it will reduce the narcissistic behavior. Right? You say, hey, I got a guitar. Thank you so much for supporting me. This gives people the ick. People fucking hate this. You don't want to give them credit.

So fine, you don't have to. You can go the angry boundary setting route. You can do that. But the more that you give them some sense of ownership in what you do, the more you will reduce their narcissistic behaviors. I'm not saying that you should do this or shouldn't do this. Be very clear, chat. I'm saying if you want to manage their narcissistic behaviors, this works well.

So y'all decide. My job here is to show you what the field is. It's not to recommend a course of action. Y'all decide, right? So the strategy that I like to use is like low and slow and gentle pull away without rupturing anything and evoking a lot of negative kind of stuff. Like that's, I think is like works well. You can go the sudden boundary setting kind of way, but oftentimes that doesn't work as we'll get to.

Because they'll evoke all kinds of behaviors. So just understand that they're jealous of you. And the more that you kind of give them credit for your successes in life, the better they'll feel. The better they feel internally. Remember, they don't know this. They have no insight into what they're feeling. But you're going to soothe them. They don't even know that they have a problem and you're going to soothe them. Okay? Second thing is entitlement. So remember that their identity is based on you.

You're part of their identity. So they will feel entitled to all aspects of your life. Oh, I'm so happy that you are getting married. It's such a joyous occasion. You're going to look gorgeous in white, and I will too. We're going to be mother and daughter, both wearing white on our wedding day. It's going to be great.

By the way, you shouldn't wear that necklace. It's way too flashy. It's way too showy. I'm going to wear it instead, right? You can't really pull it off. It's better if I wear the flashy, showy necklace. So they feel entitled to your life. These are the two things that you need to understand about their internal motivations, entitlement and jealousy, okay? Now, a couple of other things. So what makes this so damn frustrating? Just another point, okay?

So remember over here, they don't have insight. Where is this? Yeah, they don't have insight into what's going on inside of them. This is why this gives them ultimate plausible deniability. And this is so damn frustrating. Zittai bogio. Ultimate defense. Okay? If I said that right. It's been a while since I was a weeb. Okay, so here's the problem.

If I'm blind to my internal state, if I'm blind to my jealousy, if I'm blind to my sense of entitlement, if I'm blind to whatever, here's what's so frustrating. You come to them and you say, why do you hurt me? I don't hurt you. What are you talking about? This is why it's so damn frustrating to talk to them because you notice all of these things. And if you talk to your narcissist parent, they will never understand. They have no insight into it. It's just a waste of time and energy.

Waste of time and energy to try to hold them accountable for their behavior is a waste of time and energy. Never going to work. Never going to work. So stop trying. Stop trying to get them to under. They literally do not have the capacity to see this negativity within them.

Okay? Stop wasting your fucking time. You don't even need to. We'll get to why that's important. We want justice. We want them to admit what they're doing, right? But they're operating in this weird fictional world. And this is what's so frustrating is like, they're treating us like we live in their fictional world. Like this kind of shit. And this is what's so frustrating. They just make random shit up. I don't need distractions from school. My room was too colored. Stop being dramatic.

Art doesn't make money. You need to be helping me. They just make up there. It's like, this is what's so fucking confusing. They just make up all this stuff in their head to justify their actions. And if you try to have a conversation with them, they will come, they will literally come up with just bullshit that makes no sense. No sense because you live in the real world and they live in their narcissistic fictional world, their narcissistic fictional world where they're

All kinds of weird magical things can happen where everyone is impressed when the bride's mother is wearing white and is the head of the show. Oh my God, wouldn't it be hilarious for the gram if I did the first dance with your husband, your new husband? It'll be such a great prank. Let's do that. Let's do it for the gram. Let's show everybody how great. Oh my God, we're going to be besties. Let's be besties.

And it's like, I don't even want you there, lady. I'm so, I don't even want you there. How are you so crazy? Like they're so fucking deluded. And the reason they're deluded is because there's all these things going on inside them that they have no insight into. So they have to construct all of this stuff on the outside that like makes it make sense. Okay. Okay. Here's the other messed up thing. So we're going to explain why this is so frustrating.

Okay, so the other thing that's going on, here's the key thing to understand. So when, so they're empty on the inside, right? Or sorry, they're not empty. They're blind. So they're blind to this. They don't see it. But that doesn't mean that stuff doesn't happen. So there's all kinds of lively stuff going on here, right? And here's the crazy thing. Narcissistic parents know they're hurting you. They know they're hurting you and they feel immense guilt. So when they feel immense guilt, what do they say?

doing me a favor, helping me focus on real things. Does that make sense? I don't need distraction. Oh, I'm not hurting you. I feel guilty. So how do they deal with that guilt? For your own good. And if they can convince you of that, if they can convince themselves of that, then the guilt disappears. Does that make sense? So this is what's also so frustrating. You're like,

What the fuck do you mean for my own good? I saved up for weeks to buy this thing. This is something I'm excited about, something I'm passionate about. I do it in my free time. I'm 17 years old. I work extra shifts at the grocery store and I get good grades. I'm going to college. What do you, what kind of fucking crazy planet are you living on? And it's so frustrating.

Half of the frustration is a lack of understanding. Half of the frustration is not knowing what's going on. So they hurt you. They feel guilty. And this is one of the most frustrating things that narcissistic parents do. They feel jealous. They act. You feel hurt. Then they feel guilt. And then they act again. And then you feel enraged.

It is the soothing of their own guilt, which I got to just say, just as a psychiatrist, just top of mind, kind of like evidence-based or whatever. If I, if you had to ask me, what is the most, what is the thing that narcissistic parents do that pisses off their children the most? It is the way that narcissistic parents assuage their own guilt. That's like the worst.

Worst. Absolutely. It's just so infuriating. You hurt me, and instead of just admitting that you hurt me and saying sorry, you double down and you make things worse, and then you say shit like this. I'm doing it for my... I want you to focus on real things. It's like I'm developing a skill in my free time. Donated my guitar when I got good at playing. Said it was too loud.

See, this is all this weird defensive stuff. And if you try to point it out to them, they have no idea. I really believe they're incapable of understanding. Okay. Now let's understand a little bit. Why is it so hard for them to see? Okay. So now we're going to tie a couple of things together. So remember that the way I feel about myself as a narcissist depends on the way that people treat me.

So whether I'm a good parent or a bad parent depends on how you treat me. So here's the crazy thing. If you're a child with a narcissistic parent, you actually have the most power. Everyone's like, oh, my parent has a ton of power. No, you have the power because you determine whether they feel good about themselves. I want you all to really think about that. They have no independent sense of identity. You determine how they, your actions determine how they feel about themselves.

And this can be infuriating as a child, right? Because now they want you to be tennis champion. Now they want you to be a homecoming queen. Now they want you to be a loser. Now they don't want you to be successful. They're going to try to control you because you were a proxy of them. And it can be in either direction, right?

The more pathetic you are, the more sick you are. Oh, baby's sick, baby's sick. I made so many sacrifices to take care of baby. I'm such a good mother. I sacrificed so much for my baby. Oh shit, you're getting healthy? No, don't get healthy. Oh my God. Because if you get healthy, then what am I? Oh no.

Here we go. Oh, what I'm going to do is I'm going to take a little bit of feces. I'm going to mix it with water and I'm going to inject it into poor baby's veins because that way you will get sick. And if you get sick, then mommy can take care of you. I shit y'all not. Factitious disorder done by narcissistic parents all the fucking time. This is where I got to say, y'all, I'm a psychiatrist. And as a psychiatrist, you sometimes get called on consults.

of children in the pediatric ICU who have an endocarditis with Fecalibacterium. Endocarditis is an infection of the inside of the heart with bacteria that belong in your poop. How does it get there? If you're not an intravenous drug user, that can sometimes happen. But even then, it's not Fecalibacterium. It's usually oral bacteria.

Right? This shit happens. For real. This is a fucking, it's a diagnosis that we have. It is a pattern that in my training, we are taught to look out for. That's more than narcissism. That's psychotic. Bro, remember at the very beginning when we said this is cluster B. This is why I love cluster B. It's all one pot of soup that just manifests in slightly different ways.

Okay. Someone saying I was eating. Well, I did it. I said that if you were eating, you should thank me for ruining your experience because now you will eat less and you will be more healthy and you will hit your weight loss goals because you're fucking overweight. That's the narcissistic response. No responsibility. I was doing you a favor. Easy. Done. Praise me. I'm Dr. K.

You owe me. I ruined your meal. You should be donating to me right now for doing you such a favor. Okay. This is the psychology of a narcissist. There's no, there's no like way to win. There's no way to win if we're playing without understanding. Okay. All right. Okay. Y'all with me? Sorry. Honestly though, I'm sorry for ruining your meal. I will try to do better in the future. Realistically. I don't know if I have the cognitive bandwidth to think about that.

I'm going to have to worry about that a little bit later. Okay. All right. Okay. The other thing about guilt, I got off, I got off track. Okay. So the other, the problem with guilt is that remember my identity depends on how you treat me. So if I hurt you and you don't like me, that is, that's like a fatal blow to my narcissism.

So when a narcissist feels guilty, that is when they will engage in the worst behaviors.

Because if I feel guilty, that means I hurt my child. And the one thing that I cannot tolerate is that I would hurt my child. This is why it's so hard to be a narcissist. The child of a narcissist is the worst victim of a narcissist. Because a narcissist can hurt anyone else. And that makes me feel like 5% guilty, 50% guilty. But to hurt my child, oh my God, my child, my poor, sweet, innocent child that I brought into this world, I could never hurt them because...

Anyone who hurts children is a real asshole. And I may be a lot of things, but I ain't no real asshole. I'm a good person. You don't see the sacrifices I make for you. You don't see how hard I've done so much for you. And you're so ungrateful. You're so mad at me. You don't understand. Oh, get me. So here's the crazy thing. So infuriating when they hurt you and you do nothing.

The stupid, the stupid, stupid thing of, oh my God, being hurt by their asshole behavior doubles down on the narcissism. And that's why it's so painful because when they mess up your life, you're not even allowed to be upset about it. Because if you're upset about it, the narcissistic behavior encourages, right? So with this person,

What I think is like not crazy at all is if this person like, you know, if this person tries again or says, oh, mom, like you really like hurt me a lot. And this the narcissist parent's response is going to be, yeah, I don't think you can have any hobbies anymore. Like the more you try to tell them what the problem is, the more they punish you for it. So it's hard to deal with. OK, so now the question becomes how to deal with it. Don't worry, chat. Very doable. I'm not saying it's easy.

Not saying it's easy. I'm saying I've done it a fair number of times with my patients. Okay, so it's doable. Okay, so first thing to understand, half the pain is the confusion. So like, honestly, like I feel like when I work with my patients, them understanding these dynamics, like once you understand how the narcissist works, it's like,

You know, it's like meteorology and the weather. It's like just because you can't control the weather, but meteorology like tells you what to expect. And once you know what to expect, then you can manage things way better. And the really confusing thing about having a narcissistic parent is that you have all of these expectations, which are based on the real world and a generally speaking healthy personality structure.

So a lot of the things that we do, like this is so confusing. My mom tells me she loves me so much. Why is she, why does she keep on throwing out the things that I care about the most? And so like when I work with some patients and we'll get to why I do this in a second, you know, it's like, okay, the next time you're interested in something, either don't show her or make her a part of it. One of those two things. It'll flip the behavior very, very simply. Not always, but generally speaking, it works pretty well.

Okay, so if you want to get it done, then you do it. Just let them be a part of it. Hey, mom, I'm trying to figure out, you know, I really want to learn how to draw. Can you help me find a drawing tablet? And it's like, hey, thank you for getting me this drawing tablet. I wouldn't be, look at what I made. I would have never been able to make this without you. Now, if that gives you the ick, it gives me the ick too. Because that's not true. You're actually, it's just lying. It's lying. It's like, why am I lying to my narcissistic parent?

It's because you want to get the hell away from them. And if you, you don't have to lie. I'm not saying you need to lie. We'll get to that in a second, but this like it works, right? So first of all, understand the personality structure, understand that it'll smooth things out for you. And at the end of the day, like when I'm with my patients, my goal is to help them live a happy and healthy life. And oftentimes I know this is going to sound insane. I know chat. What I'm saying is going to be unbelievable, but,

Getting a narcissist to admit their mistakes and receiving an apology in closure is actually harder. I know it's crazy. It's actually harder than giving them credit for something that they don't deserve any credit for. Getting them to be honest with you about the nature of existence is actually harder. I know it's wild. But when we've been hurt, it hurts us a lot to do that. Does that make sense? Like, we don't want to do that. It doesn't feel good.

So now let's get to the second thing, which is boundary setting. Okay? So, actually, no, let's keep going. So here's why understanding becomes important. Okay. I'm going to try this again. Maybe this will make sense. Maybe it won't. Okay. So let's talk about what narcissists are sensitive. Let me see if I covered this later. Oh, no. I need you guessed. Okay. No, we'll get to this later. Let's talk about boundary setting real quick. Okay.

So a lot of people love setting boundaries with narcissistic parents. Feels so good. Set boundaries. I'm going to go low contact. I'm going to go no contact. I'm all for it. But when you work with narcissists or patients who have narcissistic parents, one of the unfortunate things that I've run into quite consistently is

Is that boundary setting doesn't work for some people for a number of reasons. The first reason boundary setting doesn't work is because there's a power difference. Really common between parent and child. I've had patients who try to set boundaries on their parents and then their parents will like respond financially. It's like, if you're not going to let me see my grandkid, there goes your trust fund. And now if you ask for advice on the internet, people on the internet will be like, fuck them. You hold your boundaries. Ain't no trust fund.

Worth dealing with a narcissistic parent. Really easy to say if you're someone on the internet who's not losing access to $50 million. Way harder if you're the one who's got the trust fund that has $50 million. Right? Like, really difficult. The second thing is that setting boundaries is like this fucking American, Western, maybe European, like, kind of thing. Right?

So if you come from a culture that's like South American or South Asian, the concept of setting boundaries doesn't work the same way. I remember, so I was talking about this subject once, was giving a lecture, and I was like, here's how you set boundaries. And someone from the audience was like, that's not going to work for me. I'm from Colombia. Like, there's no way, you just can't set boundaries on your...

narcissistic grandmother. Like you just can't do that in Colombian culture. Now, that's an issue of debate of how much can you do, can't you do. But I think this sort of general current of independence, which we assume in the West, is challenging for a lot of cultures in the world. So boundary setting is wonderful, but boundary setting requires power. That's the key thing.

So when I set boundaries on my child's video game usage, if they violate the boundary, I have more power than they have. And so the big problem with setting boundaries on your narcissistic parent is that it requires power. And if they have more power than you do, it becomes really hard to do. That is the reason that I went this road with my patients, right? So like,

Like some of my patients, it's like they have power and then things become relatively easy. They still have to deal with guilt and stuff like that. Even if you set boundaries, your, your, your narcissistic parent will punish you in other ways. They'll talk shit about you to your aunts and uncles. They'll, they'll guilt trip you. They'll say things to your cousins. And then they do this really interesting thing where they like, they push you into a corner. They use a lot of indirect aggression, which I recommend y'all check out our female bullying video.

It's a video on indirect aggression. Not necessarily men can do it too. Men do it too. But they'll do this thing where they keep on talking shit about you, and then if you complain about it, they become the victim. You guys ever been like uno reversoed where you're like, hey, mom or dad, please stop doing this. And they're like, oh my God, you've cut me out of your life. You're not letting me see your grandkids. I can't believe you would do that. How cruel. I'm the victim. I'm the victim. I'm the victim.

Okay? So that's why, like, boundary setting, like, sort of works. It's going to work, but it's going to, like, cause a lot of collateral damage. And sometimes you may not have the power. If you're a 17-year-old girl living with your parents and your parents are doing this kind of shit, I'm sorry to say the power dynamic is not in your favor. Right? So that's why, like, boundary setting, I think, works, but it's, like, a luxurious response.

So we should set boundaries and we'll get to that. But I don't think it's as simple as everyone says. Everyone's like, set boundaries. Yeah, like they're not the ones getting fucked by your narcissistic parent when you set boundaries, right? So it's like easy for them to say. So then the question becomes, okay, what do we do? So now we're going to play their fucking game. Let's go. I didn't need an F-bomb there, but I'm excited. Okay. Next thing to understand. So first of all, just understand what's going on with them. Understand that they don't understand what's going on on the inside. We'll get to that in a little bit, but...

Most important thing is to play a game of symbols, not substance. So in most human interactions, they're substantive interactions, which means that when I do something for you, there is something on the inside that drives it. It's like when I give you a gift, the gift is a symbol of my love for you.

That make sense? As most human beings navigate the world, we engage with actions that mean something on the inside. So with narcissists, they have no substance. They only have symbols. This is why it's the most dangerous thing you can ever get from a narcissist is an apology. They say, oh my God, I'm so sorry I hurt you. Oh my God, I'm so sorry I hurt you.

You deserve more than that. And I'm your parent and I need to be better. And then when they say that, you're like, oh my God, it feels so good. The apology. Thank you so much for acknowledging what you've done. And then they've roped you back in.

They don't know how to apologize. They don't know what that means. Here's what's going on. They see you subconsciously. They know you're pulling away. They know they've gone too far. They know, oh my God, now my child has power. They're going to set boundaries on me. I don't like boundaries. Boundaries make me feel bad. If they disappear, then I'm no one. Internally, they're panicking. So all they do is engage in behaviors...

That move the board position back to where they like it. That's the way I want you all to think about it. This is not an apology. It's a symbol of an apology designed to rope you back in. This is why they're so hard to get rid of because they are actually acutely subconsciously sensitive to where you are.

They're so subconscious. They're not aware at all. But deep down, they have some fucking chat GPT level of calculation, right? Just like chat GPT, they can calculate a ton of different iterations. And they know exactly what to say. There's nothing behind it. But they know when calling you stupid is going to pull you back in. They know when they call you stupid too much that your anger is building up and you're about to cut ties with them. Boom, they're going to apologize.

Are they even human? They are not human in a very substantive way. That is the whole point of mentalization-based therapy. There is an acknowledgement in the psychiatric community that what we normally call human is something that is fundamentally missing in people with NPD, BPD, and sociopathy. That does not mean that it can't be regained. BPD in that way has, I think, some of the best outcomes. So 95 plus percent of people within 16 years, BPD will be gone.

So people can learn it. But I think it's important to not assume that they have the standard set of human faculties because they don't. That's why we, that's what we do in therapy. We teach them these core faculties that we assume that most human beings have. They are humans. They deserve compassion, in my opinion. So I tend to be very compassionate towards narcissists, very empathetic towards narcissists, but don't fall for their shit. Okay? So they play a game of symbols, not a game of substance.

And here's the cool thing. You can play that too. And then your capacity to manage them will increase astronomically. If you don't, and this is like, I don't know if y'all are like this, but if you guys have grown up with narcissists, you'll notice that people are good at handling them and it pisses us off, right? Because they're like, oh my God, I can't believe these people are humoring these narcissists. They're playing all their games. They're stroking their ego. Yeah, because it works really well.

The narcissist is the easiest person to manipulate on the planet. And if you're looking for authenticity for them, good luck. But play the game of symbols. So when you think about the symbol that they're looking for from you, and if you give it to them, the narcissistic behavior will decrease. Now you'll say, aren't you reinforcing this behavior? Yeah, you are. But like,

Hold the fuck on for a second. Are you telling me that in addition to living your life, you want to therapize this person and behaviorally put them in the right way so that they become a healthy part of society? Like what? Let them have their narcissistic behavior. It's hard enough getting away from them. You're telling me that you want the responsibility of like turning them into a regular human being and teaching them the right way? What? That's my job. I'm the psychiatrist, not you.

I wouldn't want you to do that. I want you to get the fuck away from them and go live your life and have fun. And if giving them some symbolic gesture along the way without substance works, then go for it. So you can separate out that substance from that symbol. Hey, mom or dad, I'm so sorry. I can't come home for, I can't come home. I don't want to come home because you're awful.

And every time I come home, you just make me feel depressed. You beat me up. You say all kinds of things for my benefit, but it just makes me feel worse. You don't say that. They're going to be like, oh, if you don't say that, promise I won't say anything. I'm so sorry. You've done so much for me. Right? And this is why, like, I love this. So when I'm working with my patients, there's a part of me that, like, saying this shit just gives me the ick. So you all know what I do. Like, I work with my patients to workshop sentences that are not dishonest.

That are the symbol they need. Hey, mom or dad, I'm sorry I can't come home. You made me the person I am today. The beautiful thing about that sentence is it's not a lie, but it means one thing to you and it means something very different to them. So if that's what you need to do, do it, right? Like you made me the person I am today.

And they're going to be like, oh, tell me how I'm great. And you're like, right, like on the inside. So I think you can demonstrate the symbols because that's what they're going to respond to. That's what they're looking for. Right. The reason they take away the guitar is because they're looking for a symbol of submission.

And that's where what I when I work with people like what we sort of advocate for, it depends on their individual circumstance. But you should go and live your life like every step of living your life is a step that you should take. And then you may need to manage your narcissistic parent as a consequence. So when you go to college and like this is where it's just like, OK, when you go to college, you can say, hey, like, I'll miss you a lot. Right. Or if you don't want like a miss you is maybe not the right word.

So that we can workshop this a little bit. Like, yeah, my life there is going to be completely different from my life here. It's going to be such a drastic change. I don't know how I will handle it. And in your mind, you're like, I don't know if I'm going to get myself balloons. I don't know if I'm going to throw myself a party. I don't know. And then they're like, oh my God, they're going to be crying. It's going to be so hard for them. Enabling holy? Yeah. See, enabling holy

Is a really good word. And this is where like, I would call it, I mean, it's enabling sort of, but really what you're doing is enabling yourself, right? So, so I'm not saying that you should do it all the time just to keep them calm. I'm saying that you should be calculated with the way that you deal with them.

You should understand that they are jealous of you. You should understand that there's a time for a fight and there's a time for peace. You should understand that this is what my, honestly, all my patients have taught me this, that if you are in a power dynamic with your narcissistic parent, attacking them head on rarely works well. Developing your independence becomes number one and then you set boundaries. Go for it. There is a time where you stop enabling their behavior.

But that's a luxury that only the powerful have, right? And if y'all want to call that enabling, fine. And like, let's think about that for a second. What bothers you about enabling? Serious question. Why is it bad to enable a narcissist? Okay, they win. Their actions are unfair. I agree 100%. And then I ask you, do you want freedom or do you want justice?

And then you say, in a perfect world, I'll have both. And I agree with you. Look, if you have the mental fortitude to let them kick you out of their house, live in your car. I've had patients who do this too. Fucking amazing human beings. The truth of the matter is that most of the people that I work with don't have that level of extra resilience.

I don't say the people I work with are incredibly resilient. If you grew up with a narcissistic parent, you are incredibly resilient. The problem is all of your resilience has been like your damage reduction is 90%. Fine. You're incredibly resilient, but you've taken a ton of damage over the years. So you're still at critical health, right? So your damage reduction, your armor rating is different from your HP pool.

And when I work with people who have narcissistic parents, what walks into my office is a nubbin that has been ground down by their parents. They don't have a whole lot left, honestly. And the path to freedom for them involves slow playing it, involves enabling behavior that pisses them off, involves some degree of empathy and understanding that if I want to get what I want, I have to play this person's game for a while.

So what if you feel guilty for going no contact? Excellent question. That's where, once again, empathy, understanding, and compassion will be your antidote to guilt. The understanding, and here's the key thing about guilt around narcissistic parents. You can't change them. You can't. They have to want to change. And so I also have a lot of patients that develop healthy relationships with their narcissistic parents in some form. It is like relatively healthy.

And that's because once they do this kind of stuff, once they demonstrate the symbols, calm down the narcissistic defense. And this is crazy, but understand this, okay? Once you demonstrate the symbols and you calm down the narcissistic defense, then when you speak, they will be able to hear you. Sometimes they still can't. I've worked with some people that really can't. But sometimes they can hear something really small. Hey,

I want to come home for the holidays. I feel guilty about not coming home for the holidays. But honestly, every time I come home, the things that you say make me feel so bad about myself. And this is where if you're talking to a narcissist, remember, we're focusing on the symbols, not the substance. That means focus on their actions, not their impact. Not you hurt me. Not you don't love me. Not I'm disappointed in you. They don't know what to do with that shit. The words you say.

When you call every single day, when you call, the first thing that you tell me is how I don't answer the phone. That makes it hard for me to answer the phone. Be very concrete. I mean, it's possible. Like I have hope. Now, next thing that we got to talk about, I guess the last thing is living with a narcissistic parent is one of the saddest things that I've encountered as a psychiatrist. And it's like kind of a weird reason.

So like we, you know, we watched that video at the beginning where the lady was like, my mom was dead to me along years ago. And the really sad thing about having a narcissistic parent is that the moment you have a narcissistic parent, you lose a parent. Like you don't have a regular parent. You don't have a loving parent. Like,

A narcissistic parent is a replacement for a good parent. Like they come in and they take the opportunity for you to have a good parent in your life and they take it away. If you're lucky and you're blessed, hopefully you have one good parent who's not narcissistic, who helps you and supports you and loves you and all that kind of stuff. And the grief of having a narcissistic parent is profound. The amount of screwed in life you are, the profound sadness that

The profound, like just how much can you get screwed in life when you have a narcissistic parent is astronomical.

And it is because that feels so bad that doing these symbolic gestures is so hard. It's like if I've lost all of this and this parent has taken all of this away from me, you want me to humor them? You want me to have a symbol of kindness? You want me to lay down and take it? That's one step too far. I'm at one HP. I cannot give a single more hit point.

It's so hard because of the grief. The sense of loss is profound. And it is the sense of loss that also keeps us stuck. Because on the one hand, if I say, do this thing, you'll say, that's enabling. I don't want to do that thing. But if y'all have narcissistic parents, you know how hard you've tried to develop a healthy relationship with them. Blood, sweat, and tears. You're paying 200%. They're paying 0%. Anytime you make them pay,

They transfer the debt to you. Anytime you tell them, hey, you hurt me, they feel guilty. They punish you for it. Like, what the fuck? How is that ever fair? Because you've tried. If y'all have narcissistic parents, you know what I'm talking about. You've tried and tried and tried. It doesn't work. And that's because there's nothing going on on the inside. Not nothing. But they lack the capacity to mentalize. And it's like, it's really bad. And the other thing that makes this grief so bad is

And this is why, like, I'm really grateful. I don't know if psychologists get these kinds of opportunities. I'm not saying that psychiatrists are better than psychologists. And I mentioned that because I'm afraid it's going to come off that way. But I really love being a medical doctor. And the reason for that is, like, I will get consulted in places like the neuro ICU because there's someone who's in a coma. And when someone's in a coma, it's a very special kind of grief.

devastating kind of grief. See, if you have a spouse that dies, they're gone and you can grieve and move on. When they're in a coma, grieving is really difficult because they're not there practically, but you can't afford to grieve and let go because they could wake up tomorrow. What if you move on and they wake up? What if you get remarried and they wake up? Like then what the fuck? And honestly, when I work with patients who have narcissistic parents, they're

The grief that they experience is not the grief of death. It's the grief of coma. Because you're holding on to hope that one day your parent may wake up. One day your parent may realize what they've done to you.

One day there's an opportunity that you have had this asshole parent your whole life, but oh my God, all you want is a mother who understands and loves you. All you want is a mother who instead of punishing you, takes your pain away. All you want is a mother who takes 200% of the work and leaves you with a 0% of the work. That's what other people get, man. They get moms who tank shit for them, not thrust them into the damage.

And since that human being is alive, and since you've seen a spark of compassion here or there, when the narcissistic defense mechanisms sometimes calm down and your mom or dad says, hey, I've been a shit parent to you sometimes, you see that glimmer and that's not a symbol, that's substance. Deep down in there, they may be blind to it, but sometimes the clouds part and you see it. And since you see it, that's why you feel guilty. That's why you can't let go.

That's why you keep trying and keep hoping, I want a parent, I deserve a parent. And every now and then, every once in a while, I believe there's one in there. And so you're stuck. You can't leave them behind. Because just like they're tangled up with you, you're tangled up with them. Because what kind of person would you be if you abandoned your narcissistic parent? You'd be a bad person. And therefore, you can't handle that, so you need to be a good person.

And a good person doesn't abandon their parents. My parents abandoned me. I don't want to abandon them. I don't want to do the same thing that they did to me. Even though that's what you want more than anything else. It's so tangled up. What do you do about it? I don't know. Notice. Notice. Notice. Right? That there's a part of you that wants this parent. You want them to wake up. And here's the really cool thing and really sad thing.

Is that I think the best thing to do is to grieve them, to say, you know what, in my karma in this life, like I'm not getting a regular parent. To go and live your life, to separate, to individuate, to set boundaries when you need to and play the game of symbols when you can't. You can't transform them into a healthy parent. The best you can do is to have a life of your own.

And the really beautiful thing is that I see consistently a level of peace with narcissistic parents. If you walk this road and you're lucky and you do it in the right way, if you give them enough of a symbolic gesture and you start to build a life, and then sometimes you calm down the narcissistic defense mechanisms and you say something, occasionally something will sink in. And then you'll go up to them and you'll have a grandkid one day and you go to your parents and you say, look, mom or dad, you've had a huge impact on me in my life.

Some of it has been good. Some of it has been less than good. If you want a relationship with your grandchild, you need to go to therapy. Or I want you to go to therapy. Will you please go to therapy? One of those may work way better than the other. Do you all understand? And if you feel anger and resentment, you say you have to go to therapy if you're going to set a boundary, they may not respond well to that. And then what you have to ask yourself is, I don't know if this is going to make sense.

Sometimes my patients will say things to their narcissistic parents that they know their parents cannot handle. You need to go to therapy. Deep down, you know if you say that, they never fucking will. And if they never fucking will, then there won't be any repair. And if there's never any repair, then you won't have to do any work. And you can just go to your grave hating them. Such sweet, simple, so easy. It's hard, but it can be easy. You all with me? And sometimes, will you go to therapy?

Please go to therapy. I want to form a bond with you, but this is what I really think you need to do, or let's do it together. And it takes immense courage. I would never, ever, ever blame someone for not walking that path. It takes more strength than I have. It's like superhuman. That's why I love being a psychiatrist, because I see human beings that are amazingly powerful, like just fucking...

That's why I believe that human beings have a spark of divinity not because of the yoga stuff because I've seen some human beings who've had such shit lives that can somehow dig deep and Have like compassion be willing to do more work. They've been doing 200% of the work They're part of their narcissistic parent has been doing zero and they say I'll do 250 you do 50 and it's wild y'all and if you don't have that strength like

That's okay. Like, I don't think it's possible for humans to, generally speaking, have that strength. So it's hard. If y'all want to set boundaries, if you want to be angry, I think it's completely reasonable. But if you're not in a position to do that, understand narcissism. Understand your parent. You can't change the weather, but it sure as hell helps to know what's coming down the road and how it works so you can prepare appropriately.

Now, if you guys want, let's do questions. Let me find Slido link. Okay, we're collecting voicemails. So, exclamation point voicemail in chat. How do I, where's, here we go. Slido link. I'm going to post a Slido link in chat, unless chat already has them. And let's do questions. My favorite part of lecture. Are you all getting, I can't see, did we get a Slido link? Okay, I post, I do buy their serif.

Oh god. Give me a second chat. Okay, notters. Okay, thank you, Crow. Okay, so populate the Slido. Alright, so another thing to be blunt. Oh no, wait, this is the wrong one. So if you guys want more info...

If y'all want, like, actual steps, if this feels like it's a bridge too far, if y'all want to build on what we're talking about today, strongly recommend y'all check out Dr. Honda's workshop, Healing from Narcissistic Parents. So Dr. Honda's an absolute beast, like, in a good way. Just full of compassion, brought me to tears with his compassion, if you guys saw our collab together. And I think, like, healing stuff, like, I can help y'all figure things out, but I think when it comes to healing...

Dr. Honda's great. He has his own video on his channel where he talks about what he's going to cover on the workshop. This is the workbook from it. So a lot of exercises, a lot of unpacking to do, a lot of understanding to gain. And like this kind of stuff works. So what we know from like, you know, this is why we have psychologists doing this stuff, psychiatrists doing this stuff is because there are certain methodologies that if you engage in have evidence based outcomes.

But if you do this stuff and jump through the hoops, your neurons will change, your psychology will change. We know that. That's why we build this kind of stuff, okay? Let me see. No. Now we get to the fun part of the stream where Dr. K tries to do some tech support. Dr. K does tech support for himself. Ooh, I see some good questions in chat.

Love it. Love it. Let's see. Let's see what's at the top of the list. Ah ha ha. What a great question. Okay. Question number one. Let me just make sure I... Having grown up with a narcissistic parent, how do I avoid becoming a narcissistic parent myself? Easy. Don't have kids. Right? Okay. But no, that's not the real answer. Y'all got to remember, I'm an internet troll too. Okay? Done. Finished. Answered. Okay.

So, see, the core problem, a couple of answers. The first is, if you're afraid of this, you should be. So there's a lot of evidence that shows that growing up with a parent with a personality disorder is a really good way to imbue the personality disorder in the child.

So there's probably a certain amount of genetic inheritance, but then there's all other kinds of like developmental things, right? So there's a developmental component and a genetic component. So if you're concerned about being a narcissistic parent, that's a step in the right direction. The other cool thing is it actually solves like 30% of the problem right there. So if you sort of think about what is the core problem of a narcissistic parent, it is a lack of awareness that they are a narcissistic parent.

They have all of these defense mechanisms that prevent them from seeing what they are. So if you have the wherewithal to ask the question, that is already one third or maybe even 70% of the work right there. So in psychiatry, the people who make the worst mistakes are the people who lack awareness that they could be making a mistake. So people who deny that they have an addiction are the ones who develop the worst addictions.

People who think that their level of anxiety is normal or ADHD is normal, they're like, oh, I thought everybody was like this. They're the ones who struggle the most. So if you're even concerned about it, that is a huge step. Because if we think about, is your narcissistic parent concerned about being a narcissistic parent? Chances are, no. So that's huge. The second thing is if we look at the fundamental treatment for narcissism,

It is about mentalization, or that's the one that I like the best. So you can do like psychoanalysis and stuff, but I like mentalization a lot. So mentalization is an understanding that your actions come from things within you. So if we look at this example, this mom has no idea why they remove art supplies. They come up with some answer in their head, but they don't dig deeper.

So anytime you engage in a behavior, what was I thinking? What was I feeling? If I had not done this, what would I have felt? So the more that you have insight into yourself, the less narcissistic you will become. Okay. Next thing about avoiding narcissism.

is we have a lot of stuff about like ego and the development of confidence and the reduction of ego. So all of those kinds of practices like shunya-oriented meditations in my clinical practice seem to help people who have narcissistic personality structures. So there are certain practices that we do that we develop a sense of self that can be incredibly helpful. You can always go to therapy. That's always helpful for narcissism if you're concerned about it. And then the last thing is that

Remember that the core problem of narcissistic parenting is a lack of individuation of your child from you. So the key question that I would ask people who do not want to become narcissistic parents is when you become a narcissistic parent and your child wants to do something, how does that reflect on you? The more aware of that connection you are, the less narcissistic you will become, right? So when your child...

wants to, I don't know, like eat on the subway. How much of that is like a hygiene problem and how much of it is like you're worried about what people will think if you're one of those parents who has a child who eats on the subway. There's a very subtle difference there between how much is this actually inconveniencing people and how much is this like I'm going to look like a bad parent.

And so that's the key thing. And over time, let them individuate, let them become their own person. And you may notice that you have feelings of jealousy towards your child. Keep an eye out for those. And it's okay to feel that way. And I would kind of balance that with like, okay, I feel that. And why do you feel that? Why is your narcissistic parent jealous of you? It's because they were never given the chance to individuate.

Does that make sense? They're jealous of your child. You're jealous of your child because they get to live a good life when you didn't. And it's okay for you to acknowledge that and say, like, the reason I'm jealous is because I want, you know, and this is like the goal of a parent. The goal of a parent is to be the parent that they wanted. Does that kind of make sense? I had deficiencies. My parents had deficiencies. I had deficiencies in my parenting.

Or my parents had deficiencies that caused me problems, and I'm going to try to correct those. And so in a weird way, if you're internally aware, you can change the way that you feel about things. If you're not internally aware, you can't. So as that jealousy happens, then I think I would acknowledge like, hey, I'm jealous of my child because they have the life that I want. And you can lean into that.

And you're like, that's beautiful. What would I want for my child? The last thing that I want for my child is the life that I had. And I feel jealous of them because I am giving them exactly what I would want to give them. And that jealousy can turn into pride. I'm fixing it in the next generation forward. This is not generational trauma. That can help you feel good about yourself. And when you feel good about yourself, then the narcissism doesn't exist.

Narcissism requires you to feel bad about yourself. But if you're not careful and you feel jealous of your child, the narcissistic defense is, oh my God, this is bad, this is bad, this is bad. How can I be jealous of my child? This makes me a bad parent. And then you run away from it. I'm not really jealous. You got to lean into it. Lean into those feelings. See what's on the other side. Okay? Okay. What if your parents use other people against you? What if? When is better? Give me a second. Okay.

What if your parents use other people against you? Not what, if, when, when. They're going to use other people against you. Now, this is where there's a couple of different moves, okay? So this is why, like, the understanding approach, I think, works really well because you know, it's not about a if, it's about when they use it so you're prepared, right? They're going to use other people against you. They're going to recruit those people. Now, this is where...

You got to be kind of careful because if you defend yourself, sometimes they'll double down and things like that. I oftentimes find that a very effective tactic when other family members get involved is to ask them to reflect on the situation. So this is kind of simple, but I've noticed like very few people do this. When my patients do it, it sometimes works. I'd say it's got a 70% hit rate.

Which is, you know, you'll be like, oh, you know, your mom is not, you know, you're not letting your mom meet your grandkids. Let's take that scenario. So then your aunt calls. And they're like, look, this is wrong. You know, your mom loves you very much. She should see your grandkids. And then what I usually encourage my patients to do is to ask the family member to reflect. Like, what do you think about this? Like, why do you think I'm doing this? You know my mom. She's your sister.

What is she like? And oftentimes what you'll discover is when narcissists recruit family members, the reason the family member goes along is because they're enabling the behavior. They've grown up their whole life enabling your narcissistic parents' behavior. And this is just enabling again. Does that make sense? They're like, I'm tired of dealing with this shit. She's going to get on my case. Let me just give you a call, put some pressure on you. If you just let her just like, like, and y'all will notice this, right? Where like, everyone's like, just be the bigger person.

Just let your mom see your grandkid. Just let them do it. Just be the bigger person. It's not that big of a deal. And where is that coming from? That's coming from your family member being frustrated with your mom. This is your ally, not your enemy. Do y'all get this? Like, it's crazy. So earlier when we were talking about enabling, subtly we weren't enabling behavior. We were providing symbols, not substance.

I'm not suggesting you compromise your boundaries. I'm suggesting that you provide a symbol of compromising your boundaries. Right? So when the family member starts pressuring you, you can be like, what did mom say? So in your experience, has there ever been a time where a family member has called you and pressured you to give mom what she wants?

Because the answer is almost certainly yes. And they'll say, yeah, that's just how it works. You know, I was the bigger person. And then like, ask them, like, how do you feel about that? Like mom was in the wrong and you had to be the bigger person. Maybe a lot of people in our family are being the bigger person, which is why mom never grows the fuck up. I'm really sorry. I'm not going to let mom see my grandkid anytime soon.

I'm sorry that she's going to bother you about it. She's going to probably do all kinds of shit. If I don't let her, or you can even ask her, right? Like if I don't let her see the grandkid, what's mom going to do to you? Be compassionate towards your enemy and it'll like fucking flip, right? It's like wild how easy this is to do because I don't know if this makes sense. Like see, narcissistic parents, we don't realize, we don't quite process that if you have a narcissistic parent, they're not just a narcissist with you. They're a narcissist with everyone around them.

Right. And so when they recruit family members, you're like, I get this a lot in my family. That's just how she is. We just tolerate it. That's just how he is. We just tolerate it. They're narcissists. This is how we have to get along. And in my culture, that's like tolerance of bad behavior is one way of preserving harmony, which I think we undervalue in American culture. The rest of the world keeps chugging along because a lot of people tolerate bad behavior. There's a lot of value in it, but there's a time and there's a place.

And if other people get recruited, be careful because if you were raised by a narcissistic parent, you probably have narcissistic tendencies, which means when family members call you and they're like, hey, you should not do this thing, you feel bad because your sense of self-worth depends on how other people treat you. Oh no, now my grandparents don't like me. My sister doesn't like me. My aunts and uncles don't like me. My cousins don't like me. Oh no, I need them to like me.

So be careful. Watch that reaction. Take a step back. This is why compassion and empathy work really well. Yeah, it sounds really frustrating. What did she say? I mean, you know me. You've known me for 40 years. Do you think, like, do you think I'm unreasonable? Like, in general. Like, I'm not talking about this. I know I'm being unreasonable. Mom has convinced you I'm reasonable. Fine. But generally speaking, would you say that I, like, make pretty good decisions, or do you think I have bad judgment?

And this is where you're going to hear all kinds of like twisty turvy like language. Oh, yeah, but your mom is different and you should just do this. They're going to try to sweep it under the rug. They're going to try to sweep it under the rug, which is a sign of the pressure they're under. And then you should acknowledge that. And that's going to be like your trump card. Be like, wow, it seems like like you're really under a lot of pressure to get me to do this. If I don't do this, what's going to happen? Oh, my God, she's going to keep calling you. That must be hard.

Yeah, maybe that's why I don't want her seeing my grandkid because what she's doing to you is not something that I would want to happen to my child. And then it's like, fucking boom, KO. Like, it's cool, y'all. It's cool. Like, it works, right? But it requires, like, understanding. Like, you know, how can I say this without being narcissistic? So I can come up with stuff like this because I've been doing it for, like, years, decades, right?

It's hard to come up with the stuff on the fly. So I'm trying to model for y'all, but I don't, don't make, so when I do this with other people, we do like workshopping. We do like iterations of this. Does that kind of make sense? And that workshopping, like the reason that when we do this workshopping, like this kind of stuff will help.

So the more insight you have, the more that you think about, okay, these are the behaviors I showed as a child. These are the behaviors that I chose those behaviors to protect myself from, the role I play. This kind of insight is all one step there. So you guys don't have to copy pasta what I'm saying. But that's why we really believe in these workshop things because there's so far that I can go in a lecture, but the rest of the way really requires work. Okay.

And by all means, do the work on your own, do it with a therapist, whatever. But we do our best to try to structure things for y'all. But like, I kind of get that the standard that I'm setting for conversation is not something that's easy to attain. But if you'll listen to this stuff again and again and again, you'll start to come up with the stuff again on your own. Okay. What causes narcissists to become narcissists? Were they born that way or exposed to trauma that caused them to become that way? What a great question. So where does a narcissist come from?

So a narcissist, there's some evidence of genetic inheritance of narcissism, but basically the way that a narcissist forms, you can call it trauma, but I would say it's a very specific thing. A narcissist forms from conditional love. So when a narcissist, see, when we unconditionally love someone, we teach that person that there is something within you that is good, that is independent of

of how you act, how you look, how you behave. When you are not unconditionally loved, and when you are conditionally loved really, really, really hard, or not so much the love, but when the conditions are huge, pressures put on you, when your whole life is about conditional responses,

Then what happens is someone becomes very attuned to things outside of them. They become focused on the outside, focused on the outside, focused on the outside. And that leads to narcissism. So oftentimes the reason that it's inherited, there's a genetic component, which probably has to do with the way that your brain processes information and perceives things and things like that. But the other thing is if you grow up with a narcissistic parent,

They're narcissistic, right? So the way they feel about themselves depends on how you behave. And then in turn, I don't know if this kind of makes sense. I'm going to try to draw this. So like, so if you grow up with a narcissistic parent, they'll do something that then makes you do something, behave in a certain way, which then makes them feel proud. And if they feel proud, that means that they are a good parent. So this behavior that you do

determines whether they feel proud or they feel good. And if they feel good, then they love you. So what happens then? You learn that love depends on this behavior. If you do this behavior, then you get love. If you don't do that behavior, you get punishment. So then you're growing up in a conditional love situation, which is really common when your parent is a narcissist. And so that will make you narcissistic.

The last thing about a narcissistic defense mechanism is it is a response to an ego attack. So people who grow up being bullied by their parents or by other people will oftentimes become narcissists, right? Like when I get treated like shit by everybody around me, there's a greater likelihood that I'll become narcissistic because I don't have that internal sense of self, right?

I get bullied. I'm a loser. I'm pathetic. I'm a beta, which means that in order to be a good person, I need to be an alpha. I need to be a top dog. I need to be awesome. I need to be badass. And then I strive for that thing. I achieve. I work out. I become rich. I accomplish a whole lot.

And then like then in the journey to become to walk from a beta to alpha requires an insecurity. Insecurity is the fuel. And once I become a top dog, then I'm kind of stuck. So if I'm a top dog and people don't treat me like a top dog, I become really sensitive to that. I'm never going to be a beta again. I'm always going to be an alpha. And this is why alphas are so insecure.

And they get stuck because once I become exceptional, if I was a loser, once I become a winner after I was a loser, and then people treat me well, who are they treating well? Are they treating the winner well? Are they treating the loser well? Are they treating that core part of me? Are they treating the thing that I've become? And as I get positive feedback to this newer version of myself,

The insecure version that is deep down becomes even more insecure because now that people want to be my friend because I'm sexy and rich and successful, if I lose those things, they won't be my friend. And it reinforces the insecurity. This is how people become narcissists. This is also why you see people who are narcissists will sometimes, there's all kinds of problems with selection bias in the data, will become really successful. That narcissistic drive can be incredibly powerful.

And you need that sensitivity to become CEO of a company. Being very, very sensitive to what people think about you can absolutely be an advantage. Being subconsciously sensitive, being manipulative. And it's not that these people are bad. It's all working under the surface. That's how people become narcissists. So you can call it trauma, sure. Okay, my...

My voice is giving out, y'all, so I'm streaming tomorrow and on Friday, so I'm going to have to call it here. Leave something in the tank for tomorrow. We have a membership stream on building a successful career or a fulfilling career. I think it's more about fulfilling than success, which goes back to this meme that we saw earlier. I don't know if you guys saw that meme, but the empty, meaningless career. Uh...

And then on Friday, we're doing voicemails. So submit voicemails, y'all, at Climation Point voicemail, and we'll see y'all hopefully tomorrow.