How to start over after shutting down a $100M Company | Farza Majeed, Founder of HeyClicky

Around this time two years ago, you

pulled off one of the greatest events

I've ever been to and one of the

greatest events S I've ever saw, which

was S5 IRL, and it was the last event

that Buildspace ever hosted. You knew

before that you were going to shut

[music] down Buildspace. Why didn't you

sell it? You had a valuation of $100

million. I just thought the thing was

worthless. I was like, why would anyone

want to like pile of garbage? But you

chose to shut it down. I was gone. I was

off the face of the earth for 6 months.

[music] And what were you doing? I'm

literally doing the classic, you know,

going to an airport and not knowing

where I'm going to go and trying to book

the next flight. I wanted to prove to

myself that I could do nothing and just

be happy doing nothing. I'm like so

intrigued now. When you shut it all

down, you're at the lowest point of

confidence possible. [music] I think

that I'm going to go to a really great

company and you we're all going to know

about it in a very short period of time.

Far as a

>> What's up, man?

>> Welcome back.

>> We're so back.

>> It's been 2 years, 3 years.

>> Yeah, I think it's been like two and a

half years since the last one. So, the

way I wanted to start was,

>> by the way, just completely random, my

dad was watching the the one film two

and a half years ago this morning.

>> Okay. This morning?

>> Yeah. I was listening to it and I was

like, man,

>> what am I saying?

>> What did you think out of 10?

>> Don't worry.

>> Don't worry. Amazing. Um, so where I

wanted to start was around this time two

years ago, you pulled off one of the

greatest events I've ever been to and

one of the greatest events SF ever see

ever saw, which was S5 IRL and it was

the last event that Buildspace ever

hosted.

>> Mhm.

>> You knew before that you were going to

shut down Buildspace and S5 was like the

last, you know, push.

>> How did it feel for you to be going

through all of the stressful planning

and work into that event knowing it was

your last event ever? Yeah. You know,

it's kind of funny. I can actually look

back at it now, like two years later.

Even last year, I was gonna we're gonna

do this podcast last year, actually.

Yes. Around this time, but I was like, I

don't think I have I don't I have no

like thoughts to be honest. But I think

two years later, I do have like it's

like settled in my mind a little bit.

>> But yeah, uh at that time, uh

>> I don't know. There was no uh actually

no stress or anything. It was I was just

like this must all get done properly. I

think it all kind of like happened after

like kind of came crashing after. So

once I like once everything was over,

once the final post was out, everything

then I was like, "Oh my god, you know,

like this is this is a lot. This was a

lot of uh just like um a lot for like

one person I think." Um but in the

moment though, I had no no feelings

other than like it's like it's like

you're in a race car. You're like you

must get to the end of the lap. So like

I didn't have any other thoughts to be

honest. I was like this must get done

properly. Uh we must not let the people

down. So yeah. How how'd you feel about

the event after it was done?

>> I really had no feelings about it. I was

uh I thought I thought it was I thought

it was great. I thought it was great. I

don't know. I thought I felt like it was

uh some of everyone's best work. Um and

uh yeah, again, like for me, I was like,

let's get the goal done. Let's get all

the way to the end. Um I'm just happy we

made all the way to the end. And um you

know when you have a thousand people

together you know not just any random

thousand people off the streets like a

thousand people who like went through

the program and like were a part of the

thing like

>> wearing the hoodies

>> fans like you know they they they were

there like this is a big deal to them.

They're flying out from different

countries like for 3 days and so just

didn't want to let anybody down you know

by any means. Um especially when they're

putting all that effort in. Um and so

yeah just wanted to make sure did a good

event and so I think I think we did.

Yeah. It was really interesting on the

other side because we watched you guys

from Founders Inc. We all saw walk

downstairs. We see everyone planning the

event and we saw everything that was

going into it and not once did I have

any kind of an idea or me personally not

once did I have any idea that like you

were going to shut it down.

>> Yeah. Yeah. It was it was a crazy

secret.

>> How long did you know beforehand?

>> Uh yeah, it's a great question. I mean I

had been thinking about it for like a

year.

>> A year? Yeah. A year prior. So it wasn't

like a random decision. Yeah. I was

thinking about it for a year and

actually one of our friends Furcon I

talked about it with him like a year

before that basically a year before the

event.

>> Wow.

>> Just like talking about it with him and

uh but I didn't do anything. I don't

even though sometimes it may look like

I'm taking like actions out of nowhere.

I'm actually thinking about it. So yeah,

I thought about it. I have this I have

this thing that I wanted I feel like

this is not going to this is not going

where I want it to go. Uh but I still

gave it a year. I was like you know like

you can't just shut down four years of

work in like a couple of days. Like it

makes no sense. Mhm. And so I was like,

let me give this let me give this like

at least a year, like 6 to 12 months,

and if I still feel the same way 12

months from now, maybe then I make a

decision. And so, yeah, I think uh for

me, I really I actually have like my in

my diary entry uh we I think reach like

130,000 people in S5. Uh like that's

like the final number, which is

ridiculous. Like 130,000 people like

actually making their own ideas in real

time.

>> Yeah. That's just ridiculous. And so we

hit that number. I think the kickoff

stream had like 20,000 people live. M

>> uh I had 20. That's an insane amount of

just human beings. It was like a

stadium.

>> Totally.

>> Yeah. And then I was like, you know, uh

I went home and I was like, I don't I

don't think I want to do this anymore.

>> Uh

>> after the kickoff.

>> Yeah. I was like, man, like after all

this, I still don't feel like I want to

do this. Like this is like the best it's

ever going to be technically. Uh great

team, great environment, everything's

working, you know? I was like, I don't

want to do this anymore, but I don't

know why. And so I think that was where

I was decided, okay, like I think this

is over for me. me like I don't think I

I don't think I can like keep doing this

anymore. Um it'd be a disservice to

everybody at this point

>> if it wasn't like authentically what you

were proud of.

>> Yeah. I mean it's hard I mean it's hard

to run a company, right? But it's hard

it's even harder to run to fake running

a company. Like you can't just like uh

pretend like uh pretend like uh you know

you're in it cuz then the people around

you if you hire a good team like they're

going to see through you immediately.

They're going to be like this guy is not

in it. And uh I think I started to feel

myself like I'm I'm not in this anymore.

And so I was like, "This would be a

disservice to the team, everybody, fans,

product, everything." And so I was like,

"Let's not do this." So,

>> and if I may ask, why didn't you sell

it? I think there were a lot of people

and a lot of companies that would have

bought it for lots of money, but you

chose to shut it down.

>> Yeah. I mean, in retrospect, I would

have done a couple things differently in

for sure. Uh, in the moment though, it

sounds ridiculous, but I just thought

the thing was worthless. I was like I

was like why would [laughter]

I was like why would anyone want to this

like pile of garbage that I took in 5

years? Like that was actually my

mentality. And of course in retrospect

that's ridiculous. Uh

>> you had a valuation of $100 million.

>> I know. I know. But you're you have to

be like in my mind of like I think the

thing is garbage all the time. I'm

always trying to push it forward. And I

was like man I think this thing is just

garbage. Like I'm surprised anybody even

likes it. Um I was in that mindset. And

so of course in retrospect I may have

done certain moves differently like

financial moves differently but in the

moment I didn't I didn't really

understand basic basically like what

what I could have done otherwise. Um and

so yeah that's why the concept of like

selling it or like having a CEO or

things I looked into um but I didn't

pursue much cuz I was like I feel like

this company is just kind of done. Um

and also there was no obvious things

that I could do. there wasn't like an

obvious place we could get acquired for

example or there wasn't like a super

obvious place that we could uh um sell

the IP it was all like non-obvious

places it was like oh maybe like you

know Microsoft for startups takes us you

know and they pick us up for like 25

million or something those are like the

ideas that we had but nothing was

obvious and so like the combination of

like no obvious options plus like uh me

just being like there's this is I have

no value there's no value in this

company um uh let's just let's just do

the best we can to like kind of close

the book, you know, but in retrospect, I

would have done some things differently,

but I mean, no regrets, but yeah,

>> of course, no regrets ever.

>> What would you have done differently

like tactically?

>> Oh, the number one thing is like team

stuff. So, like after the company ended

only like a year later was I like was it

did I in the moment I thought nobody on

the team would ever want a job ever.

Like I thought it would be like a I

thought it would be crazy for them to

like go somewhere else. I just thought

no one would ever want that. Uh but I

think I would have handled like team I

would have I would have put the team

somewhere. I I would have put a lot more

effort into that in retrospect. That's

like the one thing I would do

differently. The main thing is just put

in a ton more effort to make sure

everyone gets placed in the right place

after uh versus like everyone just kind

of like kind of having to like fend for

themselves in a way. Um in retros like

in uh in hindsight I think everything's

okay, but I think in the moment I was

like uh in hindsight actually I was like

oh man I could have done a lot better

there. But in the moment I was like

these guys are never going to get going

to want jobs. like I can't I shouldn't

even bring up the idea be disrespectful

like that

>> because it'd be disrespectful to just be

like oh I got you a thing at Google man

um or something like that but I think uh

in the moment I just didn't realize you

know so I think that's one they would

have done differently like uh and

luckily a lot of the team is now at

Founders Inc. But again, that was all

kind of like not through me. It was

accidental thanks to, you know, the the

homies back there. Um, happy it

happened. Yeah, very happy it happened.

But I think I could have I would have

played a better

>> Yeah. I think there are some moves I

would have played a little bit

differently, but nothing crazy.

>> Yeah. So,

>> you're saying like financially you would

have done something differently with the

company potentially?

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think the company

could have easily uh uh found a

different home potentially. Um, but I

think in my mind I was not open to that

at all at at the time.

>> Why not? again, you're just in the

moment of like I'm sitting on a pile of

garbage every day. Like that's in my

mind, you know, like and so uh you're

just kind of like there's nothing here,

but as a founder, your just mind's kind

of lost in the in the sauce. You're

truly lost in the sauce.

>> Um and you don't kind of understand. And

on the top of that, you know, you have a

bunch of your you have your personal

life, you have a bunch of other things,

right?

>> Totally.

>> And so I think uh again, from the

outsers's point of view, looking into my

life, they're like, "Oh, of course it's

>> always easy to talk about."

>> Yeah. Why did I just do this? Blah blah

blah. Do that. But again, like you're

not in there in that in that moment.

Like you're not in the race car in that

moment. So it's like if I make a wrong

turn

>> and I'm going really fast. Like can you

really wrong me, you know? I'm going

that fast on a on a So yeah. And can you

maybe talk about what it was like to see

so many people that like really loved

you and like always talked like you were

the king of the world and then they

didn't understand a decision you made

and people just turned on you instantly.

Uh, nobody actually that didn't happen

at all actually. Yeah, I didn't have a

single person turn actually. Uh, nobody

I mean there's a couple of like random

people like anime profile pics on

Twitter that are like kind of mad but

like other than that everybody was so

respectful and so understanding and I

think that was awesome. I remember at

one point I was traveling. I traveled

after uh and almost every country I went

I would meet a fan randomly like I'm by

no means famous but like I would meet

someone randomly on my travels and

they'd be like man I saw what happened

to you know Phil's face respect bro I

respect it. They would always just say

they're like I they always be like I I

get why you did it. I'm not happy about

it but I get why you did it. Uh I'm like

okay that's awesome. Like that's that's

amazing. I'm so happy that's the way

most people feel like 99.9% of people

that is the leg that is kind of the

legacy that's yeah so I'm pretty happy

with how I guess like because again my

whole thing is like I actually don't

even care about my own reputation I

almost don't care what I care about is

like everybody else's reputation that

was associated with it so it's like you

know we had like over the course of 5

years like 20 people work at the company

like I want to make sure those people

are always like seen in a good light so

>> that's why I was happy I was like cool

like I want the company you know two

years from now if someone's says they

worked at, you know, build space or one

any one of my companies that it was like

it was a good thing. Um, and they it's

never like a stain, you know. Totally.

>> I think that was important to me when I

closed it.

>> Yeah.

>> And I think anyone that like went

through Buildspace and also lived in San

Francisco knows that like for a year

after you would go to like Dela or some

random coffee spot and you would see

someone wearing a Buildspace hoodie and

you would say like nice hoodie and then

it would turn into this like longer

conversation around, oh, what were you

building and like what were you part of

it?

>> No, great company. Good company in

retrospect. Uh well in it's only like

two years later did I I was s with some

one of my friends. I was like oh man

like that's that was a cool company.

Yeah.

>> But even you have to understand I didn't

think it was that cool when I was in it.

Um uh but yeah now I look back that's

really cool company. Like we should do

stuff like [laughter] that again. Uh

that's really interesting. Uh and I

think that that's that's beautiful

actually. Uh it sucks that it took all

this to get to this point but uh I mean

yeah it's it's all good. I think

everybody landed in a good spot. Legacy

landed in an okay place. Like everyone's

okay. Everything's kind of okay. uh

could have been better but it's okay.

>> Absolutely. And when you talk about that

2 years after where you were you were

working, right? Like you were putting

out stuff every week on Twitter. I

actually took 6 months where I did

nothing first. Okay. I literally did

nothing. I was gone. I was off the face

of the earth for 6 months. Yeah. And

what were you doing?

>> Uh well the first thing I did booked a

trip to uh to travel to Amsterdam to

meet up with my buddy Hans cuz I didn't

know where else I would go to be honest.

I was like like where else do I go? like

where can I get away from this thing cuz

that's what I wanted. Okay.

>> Um and I was like man Amsterdam and I

would just hang out with my buddy Hans

who's my my friend I met one of my best

my best friend that I met on the

internet when I was like 13.

>> Yeah. We met playing video games.

>> Nice.

>> Yeah. And so he lives in Amsterdam. So I

just went off and hung out with him for

like the like two weeks. And when I got

there, we talked a little bit and I was

he was like, "You should just go to a

different city every single like week."

And then when you get there, ask the

next ask the person there where you

should go next. And so that's what I did

for like 6 months.

>> Wow.

>> Like at one point I'm literally doing

the classic, you know, going to an

airport and not knowing where I'm going

to go and trying to book the next

flight. Classic.

>> How I ended up in Morocco.

>> Oh, Morocco.

>> People always talk about this, like

doing this, right? Like, you know, I'm

going to go to the airport and then book

the flight. But I I did that for 6

months.

>> Really?

>> Yeah. It's kind of not that I wouldn't

romanticize it too much cuz it was kind

of exhausting. But

>> I was going to say

>> I mean uh a great way to get out of your

head and I never traveled actually. That

was the thing like I never really

traveled. So I never saw Europe like

that. I never

>> I never really saw the world like that.

The only time I ever traveled was with

the with the company.

>> Yeah. Like I I went to Mexico City but

like I was working with the team like

nine nine

>> uh nine days out of the nine days. Yes.

I've been to Dubai but like I mean come

on. I've been I was working 10 out of 10

days. So um I didn't never really get to

see the world actually. Yeah.

>> Can you imagine being like Fez Morocco

and you go to a coffee shop and it's

just Fza sitting there?

>> That happened to a couple of people.

They had some freaked out moments and I

was like, "Man, this is crazy." Uh yeah,

in Berlin. Yeah. Actually, my first uh

uh my one of my in my first city uh

Berlin, uh this girl walks by uh this

girl and her friend and she just does

like a double take and she's like, "Bro,

what the heck?" And uh super nice, super

nice lady. And um I end up just getting

dinner with her and her friend for the

rest of the day. And it was just really

cool. I was like, "Oh, wow." Like this

is so random that like um my life just

takes me places sometimes.

>> You're just floating.

>> Yeah. Yeah. I was floating for six

months. It was it was it was a I would

not say it was a fun 6 months though. I

would not say that cuz imagine you like

work like like like crazy like that long

and then you just say like no like stop

now. It's actually you don't just I told

I was I told every I told like one of my

buddies I was like you don't just get on

a plane and then like have everything

disappear. This is not does not that

does not happen.

>> What did happen?

>> Uh I don't know. You're just kind of

like in a state of like shock almost.

You're just like I don't know. You're

just like uh like what am I doing? Like

what is life? Cuz like um you're just uh

you're just you're just dazed is the

best way to say it. You're just dazed

and confused. And so yeah, I think I uh

I went out and I was uh yeah, my first

three months horrible. I don't even know

what to do. What What do I do after

spending 10 years on my laptop? you're

telling me not to use my laptop now like

what am I supposed to do with my life

and so I think the first three months

was just like adjusting to like being a

normal person again like that doesn't

have to like do something

>> uh that was that was pretty hard but

then yeah after that it got a lot easier

>> what happened for it to become easier

>> you just keep doing nothing until

nothing becomes something and then after

6 months of that you're like wait a

second I can actually just do I can wake

up and I can just literally sit on this

couch

>> and do nothing all day and I'm totally

happy

>> really

>> yeah cuz I I you know how people say

like, um, oh, why'd you start a company?

And often the answer is like, oh, I just

can't I just can't keep still.

>> I got to do something. I got this itch.

>> That's always itch.

>> Yeah. I asked myself, I was like, do I

have that? Like, do I actually have that

or do am I just doing this out of some

other weird, you know, 10 year long

reason? I don't know why.

>> And so, uh, I realized I actually don't

have any itch. Like, I can actually do

nothing. And so, after 6 months, I'm I

was visiting my uncle in Pakistan. And

I'm sitting there all day like at my on

my uncle's couch just hanging out with

him. And then my aunt starts getting mad

at me. She's like, "Do something. You're

just sitting around all day." But I was

like, I don't know. I'm just I'm kind of

happily sitting around. Uh but it's kind

of funny. It was like a proof to me. I

wanted to prove to myself that I could

do nothing. Uh and just just be happy

doing nothing. That's awesome.

>> Yeah, cuz I never tried. Um and so yeah,

I it's almost like a side effect of so

many people who are in this space

started when they were young, when they

were in high school, middle school,

>> and they never

>> pulled their head off. They never shut

their laptop for a second.

>> You're on the train.

>> Yeah.

>> I feel like I was on the train for a

while. So,

>> what do you think changed about you

after you got off?

>> Um,

I mean, for one, just like uh felt a lot

more calm for for for sure. Like I mean,

once you shut down a company, that's one

thing. It's one thing to shut down a

company. Yeah.

>> Like if your cousin back home shuts down

a company that like you know only him

and his family knew about, it's already

hard. That's so hard for that person

totally to to be around to be

essentially a fail amongst your little

group. That's already hard for any

normal human being, right? And then for

me then, oh my god, like wait a second.

Like I had to let down like everyone

around me and team and like oh my god

this thing got like 6 million views.

Everyone knows it's like ah you're so

known and it's like uh I think uh it was

good to kind of take some time to

uh be okay with that first. Um, and then

yeah, cuz I never thought I'd start

anything again.

>> Really?

>> My plan after I shut down Buildspace was

I'm going to make a million dollars a

month making some stupid software and

I'm going to like chill somewhere else

for the rest of my life and never come

back to any of this nonsense.

>> Really?

>> Yeah, that was fully the plan. And I I I

never thought I would ever come back to

like doing anything, let it let it

again, let alone being in front of a

camera again. Like that's crazy. It's

it's insane like with how much has

happened in two years. Um, but also

insane like how like just 6 months away

can actually uh bring some things to

light.

>> 6 months is not that long in like a

grand scheme of things of how long

someone's life is.

>> Yeah. Yeah. But 6 months where you're

really every day focused on like just

like trying to just do nothing, you

know, just like really just like be

yourself, I think that's pretty hard. So

that 6 months felt like forever for me.

>> Um,

>> and yeah, it feel it was a long time.

There's so many times I just wanted to

fly back home. really my entire trip I'm

like in the most beautiful cities in the

world and I'm just like I got I just

want to go home and do this is horrible.

I don't know just go back to what I was

used to or something uh go back to

working on stuff or something and I

think remember every city I was like I

would go to the airport I was like and I

saw the flight to America and I was like

oh my god please let me go home you know

but no one was stopping you from going

home.

>> No one was stopping me but I was like I

felt like if I went home like it just

didn't feel right. I was like, "Am I

just going home out of some like feeling

of like, ah, dude, like um I want to

just go back to like some other old

habit, you know?"

>> Yeah.

>> Um so it didn't feel right. I was like,

"No, I want to go home once I feel like

I didn't know what I was I didn't know

what I wanted to feel like. I was just

like, "This does not feel right yet."

And so when did it finally feel right?

>> Um I think at one point it was like 6

months in. I'd done like so many

different countries. Uh and uh um my

last stop was Pakistan where I was

hanging out and uh I think at that point

once I already got there I was like I

think I'm good and I'm started to feel

okay. Um I was like I could I felt like

I could reliably like wake up and just

be happy. That was like a big thing cuz

I was like when I shut down the when I

shut down like the company I really uh I

had this thing right like I I write

almost every day.

>> Mhm. And so I ran this thing through an

AI and I was like, "Yo, AI, yo,

computer, uh, when's the last time I was

happy based on my entries?" And dude,

this a it was such a bad answer. Oh no.

>> It was like pretty much nothing based on

my entries.

>> And I was like, "Oh my god, am I

unhappy?" I didn't even know I was

unhappy.

>> Yeah. And so one day I was like, "Man,

like am I happy?" And I would literally

wake up like, "Am I happy right now?"

>> And I didn't I don't know how to answer

the question cuz like your brain is just

wired to only do one thing, which is

like make the company work. Um, so you

don't even ask yourself the question,

you know? And so I asked myself like

that for like a while and I I took I I

actually kept this notebook where every

day I would end the um I would rank the

day um from 1 to 10 and um based on my

happiness level, well how happy am I? I

didn't know. I was like so I'd end the

day sometimes and I just do question

mark out of 10. I think my first couple

of weeks was just question mark out of

10. I don't even know.

>> Wow. And

>> so eventually I was like wait a second I

think I feel like a six right now today.

I think it was a six. And then slowly

slowly I started looking at my entire

like life and how I'm operating and I'm

just like what are the things I'm doing

that make me unhappy because I don't

really know

>> what were they so many things for

running was a big one

>> they made you unhappy

>> but yeah I hated running.

>> Why were you running?

>> I don't know [laughter] cuz at the

company I would run like when I was

running Milspace I was running 10 km a

day.

>> Yeah.

>> Every day and so I didn't even know why

I was running. I was like for example

watching uh watching cartoons is another

big thing. I'd watch a lot of cartoons.

Why? Um, like anime, a lot of anime.

Okay.

>> And I was like, do I like watching anime

>> or am I just watching anime because it

really hypes me up so that I could do

the thing the next day that's really

hard.

>> Or, oh man, do I actually like going and

like doing this sauna cold plunge thing

or am I just doing it because it

energizes me for the next day? And I

like I was like I was like, wait a

second, this is so weird. Uh, what do I

actually like doing? I again like from

like from like your first thoughts

>> uh from my first principles like what

makes you happy? I it's like simple

stuff actually. And so yeah, I had that

it was good to kind of take all that

time like wait a second like I like

grocer I like getting my groceries in

the morning.

>> Yeah,

>> I remember there was one habit in my

little pattern cuz I would write down

everything I would do in the day. I was

like I like grocery shopping.

>> Wow.

>> And I never really went grocery shopping

cuz I door dashed for six years.

>> Yeah.

>> Um and so I was like I really like

grocery shopping. I really like cooking.

This is cool.

>> Oh you like cooking?

>> Yeah, I like cooking. I cook a lot but

>> Oh wow.

>> Again like you don't even know. Again,

this is this is the extent of how far

your mind can kind of like wander when

you're wearing running a company. I

think when I see, by the way, when I see

people like like the Elons of the world,

I'm like, man, like those guys are like

the Fortune 500 type people. I'm like,

man, these people are I don't know how

they do it. Some of them, I get how they

do it actually, but I'm just always

impressed basically at a lot of them.

Daniel Ek, who's like the co-founder of

Spotify, he has this thing where some

people he thinks most entrepreneurs

should optimize for impact and not

happiness.

>> Uh-huh. How do you feel about that?

>> How do I feel about that? Um, I can only

speak for myself. Okay. I think that I'm

going to I think I'm going to build a

really great company and you we're all

going to know about it in a very short

period of time hopefully in my lifetime.

Um, but I don't think I'm going to

personally get there by like optimizing

for my unhappiness. Like um I think I if

I optimize for my happiness, like of

course I'm not going to like

>> but it just so happens the things that

make me happy are like

>> are things that are also like kind of

productive, you know, luckily. Um, and

so I don't I don't I personally don't

think I will make anything good by being

unhappy consistently. Um, so I'm not

going to optimize my company to be like

a playground laand cuz this is this,

let's be honest, this is not like a

game. Totally. Um, this is serious. Like

there's a lot on the line. Um, it's like

winning the championships. Um, but at

the same time, it's like I don't think

that me being consistently unhappy is

also going to help the company. So

>> yeah, that's how I kind of see it. It's

like you have to like where you're going

even if you don't like what you're doing

immediately.

>> There are moments where things are hard.

Like there are weeks or months that are

hard. Um but yeah, I'd be careful to

like be unhappy daily. Yeah. Personally,

I would I'm not going to prescribe

anyone else how to live their life, but

yeah.

>> In those two years, did you ever find

that you like explored religion or God?

>> Um

not a ton actually. Um not a ton. Um I

did go to like in every country I went

to. I went to actually that's kind of a

lie now that I think about it. I in

every country I went to I went to every

religious like uh thing. Um like for

example in Europe you go to churches. I

would just hang out in churches all day

>> and I'd feel so calm in a church cuz

it's so quiet. If you went to a church

it's so quiet, it's so chill. Um um and

[clears throat] it's just beautiful. And

so every country I went to had their own

like religion

>> especially in Europe.

>> Yeah. And I went to so many churches. is

like I spend like 4 hours a day in

churches just literally just being like

this like

>> the whole day.

>> Wow.

>> Nothing.

>> Nothing.

>> Just that's it.

>> Not a thought behind those eyes.

>> Yeah. Not a thought. Just looking at

like all the decoration just like

>> just not not a thought behind those

eyes, dude.

>> And then in Morocco I went to so many

mus

like five times a day. It was so fun.

>> Five times a day.

>> Yeah. Literally, I would wake up cuz I'm

wake up so early.

>> Pleasure. The harasser.

>> I wake up with the first one. Yeah.

Literally cuz my I'm already awake at

5:00 a.m. And I'm like, "Oh, cool. I'll

just go to the mazjid. That's awesome.

Yeah. And so I was like I went to so

many beautiful mosques too. So I every

country I went to uh I went to like

mostly churches and muses actually. It's

only the main two. U but it was cool. I

mean I felt really really uh I feel

really calm in places that are calm.

>> Um so I mean if you think about today's

world where do you go to be calm in any

place? Um you can't go to a cafe. That's

ridiculous cuz

>> yeah cafe is ridiculous. cafe is

probably probably the best answer though

because it's like where else do you go

to get to be calm like and that's not

like a park I guess like that is

actually a space almost nowhere but then

no no wait a second churches like

synagogues like masjids like you can go

to these places they're free just walk

in just take your shoes off you're good

um just say you know hello in whatever

language they want you to say and you're

good um and no one bats an eye like what

are they going to say you don't believe

in this like I'll be like yeah I believe

in this for sure and they'd let you in

anywhere so I did that a lot actually.

>> Yeah, it's awesome. Yeah,

>> mushies, by the way. Oh my god. Amazing.

>> Which ones did you go to?

>> I don't remember the names. There's just

so many.

>> Did you go to the big one on the water

in uh

>> Every single one I went to was just like

a super low-key one in like the middle

of like a town. Oh, nice.

>> Almost like Yeah. Um some of those

beautiful places I went was just in the

middle of like some random suburb. Yeah.

>> You know, I obviously saw one side of

the story which was when you came back

and you started posting on Twitter and

you started posting the little things

you were working on.

>> Yes. Everybody remembers. But like now

hearing the 6 months of just like

>> nothing like Yeah. Exactly.

>> Horrible.

>> I'm like so intrigued now. What was it

like for you to then post that? Like

that first time you opened Twitter and

you clicked post.

>> Oh yeah.

>> What was it like?

>> Uh first of all again I thought I would

never I thought I thought no one would

ever hear my name again. That was my

feeling. Wow.

>> That was my thing. I was like my okay my

family knows me. That's it. Like I'm

done. No one's ever going to know my

name again. Um I don't want them to know

anything. And so I just thought, yeah,

it was really hard actually. I remember

uh I posted the first thing on the

flight back from Pakistan to America.

>> Wow.

>> And I was like, "All right, this is it."

Uh it was really hard for me uh to like

just like start like uh

>> um doing stuff again in the real world

cuz you cuz my logic wasn't that like,

"Oh, I want to post on IG and post a

tweet and tell people I'm back. I don't

care." Like my thing was like I need to

operate in the real world again.

>> Okay.

>> I think that's important.

>> So he went to Twitter.com. [laughter]

No, in some ways like the real world for

me like if I look back at like my cuz I

started like have I have have like a lot

of like um like I guess kind of some

level of respect for my career my own

career I was like oh wow like I kind of

have a lot in me%

>> and again when you're you don't know and

so I think I just built a lot of

confidence back up cuz again when you

shut it all down like you're at the

lowest point of confidence possible and

so I think um it took 6 months just to

get like even just base level confidence

again to think that anybody would even

care what I would do next cuz when When

I first made that little thing, I was

like, "Nobody's going to care." Like,

"I'm nobody's going to care about this."

Like, who cares? Um, and so

>> I remember being like overwhelmingly

positive.

>> It was. Yeah.

>> People were so hyped.

>> I'm pretty uh I'm pretty lucky blessed

to just have like such a positive uh uh

I don't want to call it a fan base cuz

I'm not Justin Bieber, but like Yeah.

Positive like

>> audience.

>> Positive audience. Yeah. I think that's

I think I think that's really it's

great. Yeah.

>> Shout out to my audience. Yeah.

>> Shout out to the people watching.

>> Shout out. Um but yeah uh it was cool.

>> Were you at this point thinking about

one of these is going to turn into a

company or were you just doing stuff to

do stuff?

>> So at one point uh when I came when I

when I decided to kind of come back to

all of this here's how it kind of set in

my brain. I kind of feel like and it's

funny like in the moment you don't know

what you're doing. It's funny. I can

only understand this in retrospect.

>> Okay.

>> Um but like why did I decide to come

back from Pakistan to San Francisco?

Like why like why did I just keep

traveling for another year? Some people

do it for five years, you know, these

because you know I was possibly going to

Africa to volunteer for another two

years. Um so I would have just been off

the face of the world forever.

>> Yeah.

>> But um I think like there was nothing in

particular other than like um I felt

like uh there was something good waiting

for me back in San Francisco. That was

it.

>> No, that was the feeling. Um

>> like your heart told you that.

>> Yeah. Just literally trust my gut.

There's no logic behind it. I was like I

think I'm feeling pretty calm, happy

these days. You know, I like my little

happiness notebook. I'm like I'm pretty

happy. Yeah. Yeah. This is good. Um uh

and uh just decided okay cool like I

think there's something good back in SF.

Um but yeah the way I always kind of say

is like you know how like uh uh the big

thing was like I looked at everybody

that I really liked in the world that

wasn't like my family or friends right

like creators uh people like directors

musicians founders whatever okay

>> I looked at all of them that I really

have looked up to and all of them had

this period of like complete public

embarrassment from something um into

coming back to the next thing. Steve

Jobs with Next, Elon with the, you know,

>> Yeah, I think I think you know you know

me and Porter Robinson. Yeah. Yeah. So,

Porter Robinson was the main one I

looked at. I was like, my god, like what

a what a ridiculous career this guy has

had. And um but forgetting even

musicians like Athletes was a big one. I

was watching LeBron's documentary and I

was like, how long was it before he won

the championship? Like seven years.

>> I don't know how long it was. It was a

long time. And I sometimes feel like

that where it's like am I just a really

good player at this game that like had a

really bad injury in the playoffs and

now that's why I didn't win the

champion. Like what what happened? Am I

still a good player or did I just did I

just have an injury? And I kind of kind

of felt like no I think I think I got

injured uh you know in a way but I don't

think I'm a bad player. I think I can

still win a championship. And so

>> interesting

>> that's why I kind of decided okay cool

let me try all this again.

>> And what does it mean to win the

championship to you? Um I I don't really

like define it too much as like a number

or a thing. It's more just like I'm able

to like do the height of my work like

every single day um pretty consistently

while being happy and just being

energized about what I'm doing.

>> How do you define the height of your

>> work? Because to me if I keep doing that

like I will win. I will win and be

personally. Um and uh I think that um

when I look at the championship in terms

of like building companies it's uh it's

really like really hand wavy. It's just

like honestly it's more just me myself

looking at the thing that I did and

being like nice nice. It's pretty good.

That's not bad. That's pretty good. So

yeah, like doing something where like

nobody would have ever this wouldn't

have not have existed unless me plus the

people that are assembled existed

together. Like that's to me the

championship. And I think you know what

that feels like when you were at a

company. It's like it's like like it's

like you have we all have iPhones. It's

like that's awesome. That's the

championship.

>> You walk out, you see a Tesla.

>> No. Yeah. To me that's awesome. Yeah.

It's awesome. Yeah, interesting. You

mentioned the team that assembled it. I

want to talk about team building because

even in those two years you worked with

some really close friends, people you

both know and I think you were posting

very publicly about this idea of like

the dream team.

>> Yeah. Yeah. You know, for a while I

didn't want to make anything with anyone

ever again. Why?

>> Cuz I just said no no one would ever

want to work with me again.

>> Why?

>> I don't know. Public failure,

embarrassment, all that stuff. Um like

why would anyone want to ever work with

like this guy again? you know, like uh

this this guy's office like this guy's

crazy blah blah blah.

>> That's what you believed about yourself?

>> Yeah, I believed that totally. Like no

one would ever want no one should ever

work with me. Like

>> even though there's so many people

around you were like, "Yo, you're the

best. You're going to come back. We're

here."

>> Like to me, like you have to understand

like I don't even take these as inputs.

Like I don't hear these things of like

whenever someone gasses me up, I love

it. That's amazing. Thank you. But it

doesn't actually affect anything in my

mental uh or how I change. Uh but again,

I think I have to get over that hump of

like, man, should I will I collaborate

with people? First of all, I was like,

man, am I going to build something

again?

>> Then I was like, am I ever going to

collaborate with anyone ever again?

>> Yeah.

>> And it took me like actually like 6

months of coming back just to like kind

of even be like, someone want to work

together.

>> Was Share the first one?

>> Sharief was um

Sharief was the main first one. Yeah.

There was a couple of the smaller

moments like little moments where it's

like I'm making a YouTube video and like

I ask for help from this one person for

a day. Um or I'm making like this

thumbnail and I ask for that person for

help for like 3 hours. And I found that

I was happiest making stuff when I was

doing it with somebody else. And I was

most unhappy when I was like completely

by myself, like unsure of of everything.

And so I was like, "Okay, cool. Like let

me collaborate with people." Like that

seems to be something I I'm good at. I

enjoy. And so then it just started um in

small ways. And yeah, Sharief was like

one of the first people I was like

really collaborated with for a while.

What was that first conversation like?

>> What was it like? I don't even remember.

I think it was just like uh um what was

he doing? Wait, he was working on his

other company which was winding down or

just not winding down but like no longer

wanted to work on that much. Kind of

just let it let it go on autopilot.

>> And uh I was like yo, you want to just

do something? Like let's just go to

Japan and do something. And so I think

it was his idea like let's go to Japan

for two weeks and let's just make stuff

and there's no pressure, no nothing. I

think that was like the most healing

creative activity I've ever had in like

the last kind of two years. Um, it was

nothing like making stuff with your

friend in in a cool country. Like

[snorts] imagine going to in a country

just to make stuff in a like a

completely different place. Like going

to a different country is in itself like

so awesome, right? It's wonderful.

Different cultures, different

experiences, but then going there with a

friend already plus plus 100% awesome.

And then going there to like create be

creative and make things and have

conversations like that was also really

and being going there with like a friend

that you really get along with. Uh, and

so yeah, shout out to Sharief probably

not watching this. He's too busy. Uh,

but we'll send him the clip. Uh, but

yeah, I think he was a big path in just

like me just he just getting back up

again to be honest. Cuz the way I think

about it, my whole 2025 is like again

going back to the basketball player

analogy. It's like you got to take

shots, you know? And so I was like, let

me just take shots. Let me just What

does it look like for me just for

example, for a basketball player, it's

so simple. Not simple, it's it's

difficult. Like you got to sit on the

court every day. You got to take shots.

That's how you get get a better

basketball usually.

>> Sure. And so for me that was the

beginning. That was the first four

months of being back in SF just like

making I was making stuff almost every

single day like new things almost every

day was a new idea. But to me my whole

process is like these are just shots

like let me just get good at just

starting to take these shots and what

does this feel like again to like um

make this thing and put it out and etc.

>> Interesting.

>> Um

>> and uh

>> and yeah and also I also going back to

analogy of like you know getting injured

um in some ways that's a bad analogy

because I self injured myself in a way,

you know, like most players get injured

out of against their will.

>> Yes.

>> Um that didn't happen to me, but in some

ways it kind of did like I didn't expect

to, you know, like get injured um in a

sense. Um and be like, I can't do this

anymore. Um it just kind of happened

randomly. I also didn't choose that. And

so I think a part of it was also just

like man just get back on the court, you

know, it's of making stuff and just like

just see what it feels like to make

start doing stuff again. Yeah. I think a

lot of people are in this moment right

now today where they're working on stuff

randomly as they're waiting for like the

big one or as they're like in this

transitionary period of their life. How

do you think about what you were working

on that week? How did you decide what to

work on?

>> My only goal every single week was

basically I have to make something and I

have to just at least show one person.

>> Oh, that was it. That was my only thing.

And that was really hard. It was really

hard to do that consistently. But I

think once that had started happening

consistently after a couple of months I

was like cool let me now collaborate

with people uh let me now do bigger

things let me work on this for multiple

weeks and so it was really like slowly

getting to the point of like let's do

stuff again you know um so yeah

>> and then again with the sharif example

um you built what was it was like a

slack interface to interact with AI

agents

>> that was what we built. Yeah

>> and it was really good.

>> Yeah we came up with that literally like

a 20-minute walk.

>> It was really good. I think Maz and I

were using it to like come up with half

a thing we saw from I think Olive in

2025, right?

>> Yeah.

>> Why'd you shut it down?

>> I guess for for to shut something down,

it had to have started to begin with and

it never really started. It was just

always like a thing where me and were

kind of messing around.

>> Okay.

>> Um and it was funny like uh once after 3

months we just had a conversation and we

were like do you want to keep doing do

we want to keep doing this? And we

collectively both just said no. Um uh

and that's why so we didn't keep doing

it. So it never really became a thing. I

guess it kind of became a thing because

like people started using it. But in our

heads we're just like we got to both

want to do it, you know. And I think he

he has a different story to tell. I have

a different story to tell. Um but it was

really fun working with a friend. Like

that was awesome. Um I think timing has

to work too. Like both people got to be

in the state of mind to like be like to

go on something. He was also coming off

of his like lexica stuff. Totally. You

can't just throw a guy into another

project like uh it's hard. Um, even

though it looks easy from the outside

like, oh, just like stop that thing and

do the next thing. It's like it's not

how it works.

>> Interesting. And then so easy from the

outside to look at though. Yeah. I'm

like, what is he doing?

>> Yeah.

>> So, you know, it was awesome.

>> After that one, there was another

project with Julian.

>> I'm sure there were a lot more in

between.

>> There were so many.

>> There were a lot. But like the one that

I think got stuck for a little bit was

the one with Julian.

>> Uhhuh.

>> Where you were doing these tutorials of

teaching people how to use AI in their

day-to-day life.

>> Yeah. There's so many projects in

between that nobody knows about. That's

crazy. Like I see them so clearly.

>> Like I woke up when I was building a VR

game to like battle gorillas um for like

two weeks. I put a team together. You

remember that that meme uh 100 men

versus or one gorilla versus 100 men.

>> Yeah.

>> I built a game for that in VR. I I

literally hired two guys.

>> Two gorillas. Yeah.

>> Uh put them together for in the room in

Founders Inc. for two weeks and I was

like, "Let's build this game."

>> You made the game.

>> It worked.

>> Yes. It worked.

>> Can I play it?

>> Uh no. I mean, yeah. I have to look at

the code base, but yeah, you can play

it. Okay. Um uh but it worked and I was

like again there's so much nonsense. I

think it's the one thing if

>> I don't know I feel like nobody really

gets from like my previous like like

year and a half it's like the amount of

nonsense that I put out

>> is bewildering. It is crazy like who

came some days I had literally nothing

>> really

>> and nothing in my brain and I was like I

must put out something. I have to. It's

just a muscle. It's like taking a shot.

I don't care if it's horrible. Um, and

so yeah, one of those horrible shots was

free. I think we still use free ride. Do

you still you still use free ride? I

still use free ride.

>> Free ride to me was like this is a pile

of this is horrible.

>> Really?

>> Yeah. I was like, dude, it was so good.

I remember I was sitting in my laptop

and I was like, what's this? What can I

just make? What can I What can I make?

>> Yeah.

>> And I was like,

>> we'll buy like a text box. That's like

what what about a journal?

>> Yeah.

a journal. Okay, great.

>> And so I made it and I was like this is

so bad. And then I just put it out and

then people liked it. And I was like,

"Okay,

>> I still have these entries in free right

of like today we got our first ALF

office cuz like I don't journal." But I

would start just cuz I was like, "Oh, I

want to mess around with this idea or

this tool that you made."

>> No, I think every day I get like a

message from someone saying, "Thank you

for making free." And I was like I'm

like, "Wow."

>> But it really doesn't phase you. You

don't care.

>> It's not that I don't care. It's just

that it doesn't really change anything

in my head.

>> What does change something in your head?

>> Oh man. If when I make something with

like a with collaborators

>> and we all think it's like

>> this is magical. like this didn't exist

before we we came we met we we did this

>> like that to me is like the best

>> and you feel that way about your current

company today.

>> It has moments.

>> It has moment.

>> Yeah. You you look for these moments

like again you would want this

consistently every day that magic but

it's kind of unrealistic. It's kind of

like making music every day and making a

banger every day. It's like it's a bit

hard. Uh you can try you know but it is

hard.

>> It's interesting when we I was talking

to like our team earlier before you got

here. We were talking about how like at

LIF we had these like keystone moments

whether it was summit whether it was a

tournament where we all went like all in

into one project and then it was done

and we were like

>> nice and then there's like days where

you're not working on the one big

project and it's a little bit less

exciting than you know when you're 3

days away from like the biggest

conference you ever hosted.

>> Yeah. I think the game is to set up to

set everything up where every day could

potentially be inspiring and exciting.

Um how do you do that? That's kind of

like what I try to chase almost on a

daily basis. Um,

>> how do you do what? What do you mean?

>> How do you set up every day so that

you're inspired and that you're chasing

something?

>> It depends on the person. Like for me,

uh, for me a lot of it's about

collaborating, you know. Um,

and also working on something where I

can like put it out

um, aggressively

hopefully um, like where people can see

it quickly. Um, uh, and I think this is

why I gravitate towards stuff like

YouTube or like making videos or like

software. It's just because naturally

like they they do fit kind of what I'm

looking for. Um um like for example I

don't know if I'd be able to make a car

company because at least right now maybe

actually right now maybe uh but I

wouldn't I wouldn't be I wouldn't trust

myself because that takes four years of

not showing anybody anything sometimes

and that's really hard

>> it's hard for anybody. So when I see

some someone do like a like a rocket for

example I'm like man like that's why

those people who are making rockets are

pretty old entrepreneurs. Uh you can you

can see um it's just it's just it takes

a certain level of maturity I think. Um

I think I'll get there. Um but I think

right now I kind of like it's not that

I'm immature. It's more like okay cool

like I think I like to work on things

where I can move quickly. Um and so let

me let me let me work in this kind of

sector. Yeah.

>> What do you look for when you are

considering collaborating with someone?

>> Um

honestly it's mostly the same things

that I've always looked for since I was

like even 22. Like um I just enjoy

having a conversation with them. Yeah.

>> Is the biggest thing actually. Yeah,

>> that's number one. That's like 95%.

>> So, you're telling me if you go meet

someone at a cafe and you really enjoy

the conversation, you'd work with them?

>> That's 95%. But that 5% last 5% is

important.

>> Okay. What's that last 5%?

>> They actually have to be like really

good at whatever they do.

>> How do you tell us if someone's really

good?

>> You just talk to them about like uh

ideas or things that you know um things

that you want to work on. Um what do

they want to work on? What are their

thoughts about your projects? What what

are my thoughts on their projects? And

just by conversation, you can get a lot

um you can really understand if someone

understands their stuff, you know. Um

for example, if you try to talk to me

today about like uh battery design, um I

will personally know nothing.

>> Uh but if I if you knew a lot about

battery design, I can figure that out

within 30 seconds. Within 30 seconds, I

will know if you actually know your

stuff on battery design just because of

the questions I will ask. Um

>> what's an example? Huh?

>> I'm an expert on battery design.

I'll be like, uh, how do you feel about

batteries today?

What are your thoughts on batteries

today? I'll just start there.

>> Really? Yeah. Like, what are your

opening thoughts on just battery design

and you know, just batteries in general

and you know, mining situation, all that

stuff.

>> Just like ask like an you don't have if

you're really in it to know.

>> Um, and so yeah, now when I hire people

or looking for teammates for like AI

stuff, Yeah.

>> I'm kind of like what's uh how quickly

do you use a new model when it comes

out? Like on average, um, for example,

some people are like 30 seconds, 5

minutes. There's one kid I talked to, he

was like always 5 minutes. And it was

true

>> cuz then when I when I worked with him,

he actually when stuff came out in 5

minutes, he dropped everything.

>> He was like, "Hey, Fza, you know, this

this works now on this new model." I was

like, "What model?"

>> Um, so people that are just on top of

their stuff like know that know they're

like are kind of

>> obviously talented in like a specific

domain. Yeah.

>> Do you look at any of the traditional

kind of advice around hiring? For

example, one of them is Nobel laureates

are like very very very likely to have a

very serious hobby because people that

achieved greatness in one thing likely

experimented with greatness in a lot of

other things. Like Tom Brady being

really good at baseball before he became

a world class football player.

>> I've interviewed probably thousands of

people at this point.

>> Really?

>> Yeah. For sure. A minimum a thousand.

Okay.

>> A maximum maybe 2,000.

>> Um

>> there's a lot of people to to build a

team like for every one person you hire,

you're probably interviewing like 80 to

100 people. Okay. um especially at a

startup because you're looking for like

a such a you're looking for such a gem,

you know, and so um I don't think too

much about like uh I honestly just look

at like are they like an energetic

creative person that is really into

their craft and like I can figure that

out by just talking to them usually. Um

and then often sometimes you talking

will only get you so far. I will then

bring people out hopefully two to three

months and work with months. Yeah, like

months hopefully. Um, at best three

months, that'd be awesome. Forget three

months with everybody before hiring them

because then you get a much better sense

of then how you collaborate, you know.

So,

>> how do you balance bringing someone in

enough to where they have the context to

perform in 3 months without it just

being like if they leave now the whole

company's in a bad spot?

>> Um,

well, that's a good that's a good thing

actually. If you bring someone in and in

3 months the company falls apart, that

was the right person actually.

>> If they leave, okay.

>> Yeah. That means you actually picked the

right person. Like they actually are

like they became critical in 3 months.

Like that's actually perfect. like I'll

do everything to keep that person,

>> you know, and um

>> yeah, I'm early right now again and I'm

building my next team. Uh which is

crazy. I didn't think I' ever built a

team again. So,

>> who's on it right now?

>> Uh the stack. Yeah.

>> Yeah. Right now, Nish joined wherever

Nish is.

>> Shout out Nish.

>> Yeah, Nlesh joined two weeks ago.

>> Amazing.

>> Yeah. And we're working on getting big

tier as well. Nice.

>> Yeah. Yeah.

>> That is really interesting.

>> Yeah. So, we hired Nish does like Nish

won build space season one. I don't know

if you know. I didn't know you wanted I

knew he was the founders.

>> He was the first ever winner of nights

and weekend season one.

>> Who would have thought?

>> And then Founders Inc. invested in him

which was the prize prize of S1. Yes.

Orb was to join Founders Inc.

>> I remember hearing story for the first

time. It was like you know he like grew

up without internet.

>> He's crazy story. He should be on this

podcast. Not me. He has a crazier story

than me. Y uh but yeah I mean uh so much

history you know. So I think I tried to

look for PE that's amazing that you have

that I could have that much history with

someone too.

>> Are you optimizing for people you have

history with?

>> That makes it a lot better. that makes

it so much easier because you just

understand them at a deeper level

hopefully. Um otherwise it's hard. Um

like if I found this random engineer

that seems good, how will this person

react when everything goes downhill? Um

when things are not working, when things

are working really well. So you just

don't know. At least with people that

you know, you get a sense um you know

who they are. So that's why that's why

I'm saying work with people for three

months. I try to

>> um but yeah. So I don't know what

question you even asked me originally,

but yeah,

>> you answered it. We we were talking

about like Julian and stuff. But

anyways,

>> so when you think about clicking out, I

want to talk about what it is today.

Well, how did it first start?

>> Oh man, it's such a stupid story. Um

I literally So basically 2025, tons of

like nonsense making nonsense every day.

Everyone's looking at me like, "What is

this guy doing?" Uh I think, you know,

my mom, dad here, they're probably like,

"What the What is he doing every

day?" I think every day I was working on

like a new thing. Yes. And I'm always my

mom, oh my mom, they stopped asking me

what you're working on. Uh like

everybody actually stopped asking me

what as far as we're working on.

>> Oh man.

>> Cuz every day it was like a different

thing, but it was very purposeful. I was

literally like I'm just it's like a

muscle. Like just go just take as shots

uh as many shots as possible. And then

once 2026 hit, that's where I was

mentally like okay um

I need to focus on something. Totally.

Um I think it's time. I think I'm ready

mentally to focus on something. And so

my biggest thing when I looked around

was like first was just AI. Like AI is

something that I've been around for like

a decade. I've been training models

since 2016. Um I've been like in this

world uh for a while. Um and so I was

like, "Okay, cool. AI. I think AI is

super interesting. Let me just think

about this for a little bit." And what I

uh one of the main things actually while

traveling that I realized is that I

always knew way more about AI than

everybody else.

>> But this is 2024, so it's still early.

So what GBT4 is that? Um I don't know

which part we were on. Um but we were

just in the beginning of like making

websites with AI.

>> Got it. And so everywhere I traveled

everybody would be like you know about

this AI thing, dude. How can I use it?

Like teach me. And so I'd be sitting

there teaching everybody like in

hostiles. I went to this one surf camp

>> whereas this guy named um Hassan and uh

he was running a surf camp and I was I

would ask people you know what's while

while I was traveled you had these late

nights with people. I was like, "Susan,

what's your dream?" And he'd be like,

"My part is so my dream is to run a surf

camp." And my thing was always like,

"Why why can't we do that tomorrow?

Let's do it tomorrow. I'm doing nothing.

I'm down to help you." And so Hussein's

like, "Okay, I'm doing nothing tomorrow,

too." And so I sat with him for the

whole day to make a website.

>> Okay.

>> And I taught him like AI, I taught him

framework, I taught him like how to how

to like, you know, generate code.

Amazing.

>> And uh he made his first, you know, surf

cam website. Wow.

>> And it was such a big deal for him uh

just to have that skill. And so when I

came back in 2026 to think about this, I

was like, "Okay, cool. I think AI is

potentially uh a skill where if everyone

is taught it uh properly could actually

change their lives if they if they learn

it properly um and if they use it to its

fullest extent and so my whole thing was

like how do I democratize the models um

because I don't think the current

companies are doing it properly um I

don't think like just because you have

chatbt that you use chat properly that's

like saying you know in 2005 hey Omar

here's your here's a computer here's the

here's a Windows computer uh or just a

computer um you No, no screen, no

interface, terminal. Uh, use it

properly. Uh, and make make make a

living out of this. It's really hard.

>> Models are like cars.

>> Models to me are just like the craziest

chips in the world and nobody's built a

laptop around them. Um, that's that's my

mental model of them. Like they are so

powerful. They do so many things. And uh

if I could give like that kid in

Morocco, you know, access to the right

access to the right like uh knowledge

around the models, if I could get like,

you know, that one guy who's like a cook

um um at this country to like, you know,

u start posting these recipes online,

whatever it is. Um how can like we give

more people like democratize the models.

And so I did the first thing, the

dumbest thing possible. I was like, I'm

gonna stream myself on YouTube and teach

people AI because think about it, if you

want the story,

>> if you want to democratize the models,

like what's the best way to what's the

dumbest thing you could do right now?

And I wrote it down in my diary. I was

like, I would teach someone on the

street right now. And that's to me

democratizing the model. Like that's

that's you know, helping people like uh

learn about these things.

>> Yeah.

>> And so I taught people on online for

like 3 months on YouTube and you know

about that. Um and uh worked with my

buddy Julian who also who again like

trying my whole time to like find like a

collaborator. It's like a co-founder

especially. Um so work with Julian. He

was big uh during that whole time for me

just to like have a collaborator again.

And yeah, one thing I noticed is that at

one point there's months where I'm

helping 10,000 people uh where rather me

and Julian helped like 10,000 people in

a given month and it was crazy. I was

like 10,000 people. Wow. Like 10,000

people gave it a shot. 5,000 people

actually made their first thing with AI

and uh a lot of them will come back to

us like I literally see a path where I

can like change my life now with this

thing. Uh because you a good thing about

the people who don't know about these

things like um I don't know like janitor

in ex random country um if if he or she

learns about the technology like he can

he or she can actually like change the

trajectory of his life. Yeah. Um of

their life. And so we saw a lot of those

stories. But then the but then one thing

we noticed I kept noticing is that like

my whole time in my brain I was like I

do not want to be a YouTuber. I do not

want to be a content creator. I do not

want to be a guy in front of a camera

teaching people AI. Like that is not my

long term. I'm doing this right now

because I want to learn as much as

possible while being in it, you know.

And I think if I'm in this I might be in

this for a year. I might be in this for

like a week. But I think if I keep

continuing to do this action which is

get people together and kind of help

them you know again democratize the

models um then that will take me down

the right path. That's kind of what

ended up happening. Uh what ended up

happening was um we just have a lot of

people ask these questions like oh

because we're teaching them cloud coding

codeex or replet whatever like these

kinds of things and every know you know

for example we think that something like

I don't know like a replet is easy just

go on the landing page and type in the

box the website you want and you have

website right but no that's not how it

works like the average person will just

look at it not do anything and bounce

that's the average person and so even

just a qu we had we had a discord where

the people would ask us all these

questions and the biggest question was

often like what's the first thing I

should write in this box,

>> you know, or like hey, I wrote this

thing in this I I I made my first

website and now what? How do I have like

a database? How do I do these other

things?

>> And so built this super simple thing

that could see the person's screen and

kind of guide them along step by step

through codec, clock code, and replet.

Um, so like

>> they we give them a step, it would check

their screen constantly. Once they did

that step, next step. So it was like a

course, but like you had someone kind of

watching you as you did the steps. And

that was the first version of the the

product. Yeah.

>> And then what was the path from that to

today? It's obviously this like buddy

that lives inside your

>> M. And at that point at this point, um I

I get into YC, which I didn't get in. I

literally Saturday Aaron Epste, my

partner, calls me and uh he called me

like more on a Thursday than again on a

Saturday and he's like, "Hey, you should

join YC. It starts Monday." And I was

like, "Aaron, I don't want to do YC. I

don't care about YC. Um why would why

would I do YC? working a YouTube

channel, bro. Like, get out of here. Oh,

wow. And so I just I was like, "No, I'm

good." And then he just kept calling me

actually over the course of like a

couple of weeks. And then yeah,

literally the Saturday before he calls

me one more time. He emails me, I think,

and he's like, "You should join this

thing, man. Monday, just show up. You're

in. It's going to be fun. You're

already," and I think one thing he said

resonated with me. He's like, "You're

already building your house alone. Do

you think building at YC for 3 months

could potentially take you down a

different path?" And I was like, "Yeah,

probably." um because I was just I was I

was alone so much basically because I

was living by myself and so I think uh

getting out would would be a good idea.

And so I joined YC with my YouTube

channel. And so I remember day one I

remember day one I'm like I was kind of

nervous. I'm like oh my god everybody

here's working on so many cool things.

I'm working on a YouTube channel

teaching people.

>> Thought you were a partner.

>> A lot of people thought I was a partner.

I day one I have like eight people would

be like dude I did build space and now

I'm in YC. What are you doing here? Uh

are you are you like a visiting partner?

And I was like, "No, man. I'm with you."

I'm like, "I would never I'm I'm I'm in

the dirt with you right now." And

they're like, "What? No way, bro. You

don't belong here." I was like, "What

the do you mean?" Uh, of course.

Uh, this is what I want to do. Uh, to be

in the dirt with everybody else doing

the thing. Um, but yeah, after that, uh,

after all the clicky stuff, I was

actually working on a different idea.

Um, I was trying to make this other

idea, which I don't want to get into

right now. Okay.

>> Uh, but for a month, I was working on

that NYC in YC.

>> Okay.

>> And then again, I didn't post the clicky

thing.

>> Yeah. Yeah,

>> like it was called Learning Buddy. We

didn't post it cuz this is like a stupid

idea. Like what do you it cost so much

money blah blah blah.

>> Uh but I remember one day I was trying

to learn Da Vinci

>> and I found myself constantly

screenshotting Da Vinci and going to

Claude constantly like 20 times in a

row.

>> Uh cuz I want to like get the right

color grade. I want to understand what

this button does. And I was like, "Wait

a second. What if I just took that one

code, the code that I we already had

from that app, Learning Buddy, and what

if it just like could see my screen when

I pressed the button? like could the

model be so good where it could teach me

anything in real time

>> and uh because if it could teach me Da

Vinci which is a pretty complex program

then it could probably teach me

anything.

>> Also, what made you want to start

learning Da Vinci? It's a random thing.

>> I just wanted to put out these little

videos every week on YouTube where I

talked about like uh what I was up to.

Okay.

>> And uh I was like and I was uh you know

our buddy Joshua Joshua Bonso Joshua I

was like Josh how how do you record your

videos? He was like oh far you shooting

brawl and then like you got to go in Da

Vinci and then how to color grade. And I

was like, I don't know how to do any of

this. Um, so I was like, let me just

learn. And so I just learn I just wanted

to learn how to shoot my own videos and

do my own color grades. And so that's

why I started learning. But again, that

moment where I was like, wow, I could

literally talk to my screen using this

app and learn Vinci. That's so cool.

>> Yeah.

>> And then never and then I tabled it for

another two weeks. And then my YC

partner Aaron was like, "You had that

one thing you were working on. Like what

was that thing? Like you could see your

screen." And I was like, "Yeah, it's

pretty nonsense." It's like, I think

it's stupid. And he's like, you should

just post it. Like, who cares? I just

post it. And uh I was also like, okay,

sure. Cuz for me, my mentality was like,

I don't care how dog the idea is. I

will happily just post it cuz I have no

care about my own reputation or my own

how people see me. I do not care at this

point.

>> Totally.

>> Which took a while to get to, but I do

not care. Um, and so I put it out there

thinking nobody would care. And then 8

weeks later, here we are. And I'm

working on this as a company now.

>> Amazing.

>> And we have a team and it's a beautiful

product and we have actual paying users

and all that. in eight weeks. Amazing.

Uh but uh didn't think that would

happen. Yeah.

>> Off record, uh this podcast is going out

in a month. Do you want to talk about

fundrais?

>> Fundraise? Yeah. Sure.

>> Okay. So, as part of building a real

company, you've also now raised a little

bit of money.

>> Yeah. Uh I fell into raising money

somehow, which is kind of fun. Yeah.

>> So, I want to talk about

>> all very accidental by the way.

>> No, I could I could tell

>> everything everything about my whole

life was accidental some. I think a lot

of people want to make things seem like

things are accidental, but you afraid it

it truly is accidental for you from like

watching it.

>> I don't know if it's accidental is the

right wrong word cuz that means I didn't

intend for it. I just I just believe if

I do enough stuff every day

>> Yeah.

>> accidents will happen like this. Yeah.

>> And uh I will just get lucky isn't the

wrong word. It's not the right word.

It's just like something will happen

like when you make enough motion

something should happen. Yeah.

>> Uh, and I think, yeah, like I said, no

one can name a single thing I I did in

2025. Almost most people.

>> And I think that's kind of awesome.

>> Like you're telling me, I did so much

stuff all of 2025.

>> I was public about it. Nobody can even

remember anything.

>> Yeah.

>> But it all again like you needed I

needed to do all that

>> for a year to get to like this and kind

of be in the right place to kind of go

fast on this.

>> Yeah.

>> And so with raising

>> Yeah.

>> was there any questions like what was

the process of fundraising for you this

time? So, first of all, YC was the first

fund raise. Sorry. The first fund raise

was from Founders Incin Weekend Fund.

That was right when I got back to SF.

>> That was like a year or two years ago.

>> That was literally I got back to SF like

a year, nine months. Remember, I

traveled for 6 months. Yeah.

>> Came back to SF 3 months. Yeah.

>> And then I was like, "Oh my god, I'm

broke."

>> Oh,

>> I'm broke. Like not like broke to the

point of $0 my bank account, but I was

like,

>> I kind of need money. Like I'm almost

30. Like I have these I I have other

things I would like to I I have basic

needs. Like I should probably like

figure out like my money situation.

Sure. I'm looking at my bank account. I

was like, man, like this is bad. Like,

uh, I'm out here second guessing every

financial decision I ever made. And I'm

like, "Oh, I should have sold that

thing, blah, blah, blah." But anyways,

I'm kind of sitting there like, "Okay,

cool. This is the situation." And I look

I look at my two options. I was like,

"Get a job and get paid a lot of money

for a year, like millions of dollars for

a year, or uh go off and hit up some

friends to raise a small amount of

money." And I think I raised like

$300,000. Um, yeah, around that. Um, and

yeah, that was from Founders, Inc. Ken

and Ryan Hoover.

>> Amazing.

>> They're my first two calls. I had I just

texted them. I was like, "Hey guys,

would you want to invest? I don't know

what I'm doing. I have no idea what I'm

doing, but I know I'm going to build a

company. Something cool is going to

happen." Yeah.

>> Um or not,

>> but you want to try.

>> That's cool.

>> I said, "Yeah, they just funded me in

2025."

>> And then 2026 was in the YC call.

>> Okay.

>> And YC, I guess, you know, gives you

money.

>> Yes.

>> They give you half a million dollars and

now I have half a million dollars. Okay,

cool. I guess I raised money. Um but

again, I had no like preconceived notion

of like pressure or anything like that.

You're just like, "Okay, if it happens,

>> cool." Like, "I have I have almost a

million dollars now. This is cool."

>> Yeah.

>> Um I guess I could use this to make more

cool stuff. Um and then Excel was the

next was the next one. That's where we

was $3 half million. Right when I was

working on the YouTube channel,

>> NYZ.

>> Yeah. Uh basically when I I've only ever

worked one job and it was when I was 22,

I was training models for this one

company named Mayhem where we were

building an AI gaming coach where you

could press a button and get real-time

feedback on what you what was happening

in the game and how to play the game

better. kind of like Clicky actually but

for video games. And so I trained their

models and that guy 10 years later

became a partner at Excel. His name is

Ivan.

>> And so Ivan eight whatever nine years

later says, "Hey Farza, like I see

you're working on something. Can I give

you three $3 million?" And I was like,

"That's ridiculous." That's actually how

the conversation was.

>> Yeah. He's like He's like, "I should

give you money. Like you're going to do

something awesome. I should give you

money." He's like, "I should give you $3

million." And I was like, I've been

working on a YouTube channel, you know,

like I have literally like

>> this is not good for you.

>> Yeah. I literally What? What are you

doing? He's like He's like, I know it's

this is those moments where it's like

everybody else believes in me more than

I believe in myself sometimes.

>> And I think like that's kind of happened

consistently.

Um I think you need it sometimes, you

know, like again like uh it's it's hard

to just like get back up. Um

>> um especially after publicly like kind

of falling off uh or falling off the

horse in a way. Um, and so yeah, I think

uh I've been being like, "Yo, let me

just give you the money was uh was was

cool."

>> And so now I have like $4 million and uh

in the account and uh all of a sudden

now YC is coming out. Demo day is coming

out

>> and I'm like every investor you can name

is like in my inbox cuz at this point

I'm putting out so much stuff totally

that's like working

>> and everything has like millions of

views.

>> Everything is getting like millions of

views. Uh everyone thinks that I'm like

every idea I'm making hits or something

and I'm like

>> no one sees 2025. Yeah. Yeah. No one see

2025, but uh 2026 great. Like that's

what I was saying. Like it's great to

have like these little this this it'd be

good to keep this going forever. I don't

think it's going to happen like that. I

think it's going to look more like,

>> you know, like boom boom boom boom and

then no one cares. Boom boom boom, you

know. Uh but the best companies are just

it's just it's just all the way to

>> hits constantly. That's like Justin

Bieber. Um and so uh yeah, I think uh

would definitely come every investor you

can imagine was in my inbox. Um, and I

just I was like, you know what, maybe I

should get money for this thing. Um,

because I I actually do like having a

lot of money for my projects, like I

actually to me it's like the more money

I have to an extent, um, I think the

more creative I can get to use that

capital to make the project better.

>> Totally.

>> Um, and the company better. And so,

yeah, it kind of landed at the $12

million number.

>> Congrats.

>> Mostly, you know why? Because Buildspace

raised $12 million.

>> Oh, I didn't know it was 12. Okay.

>> Total 12 across the company's history.

So, Zip School plus Buildspace, $12

million.

>> I think your max was like at 100, right?

At Buildspace. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> And so I raised $1 million a year and I

was like, you know what? I did that.

Everyone kept ask me on the calls, why

did you pick this number? And I was

like, cuz that's how much money I had on

my last company. And I have a very good

sense of like

>> how to move with

>> how to move with that money.

>> Yeah.

>> Also, it kind of felt good to kind of

the idea of being like I'm going to put

myself in the same position again.

>> Like I'm back. Yeah.

>> Yeah. Like I'm going to put myself in

the same position like financially with

with everything. Different company,

different team, different everything.

But like

>> it felt like okay, cool. Like I know how

to utilize this. So yeah.

>> Yeah. That's really interesting. This

like it's not the usual conversation I

have with the podcast, but a lot of my

friends and I have been talking about

this idea of like um

>> continually like trying to purify why

you're doing certain things because

>> you almost become like a vessel of like

good or like God will use you in a way

to like do good for the world.

>> Uhhuh. And ironically, I feel like even

though you don't try, I think

necessarily to do it in those terms, a

lot of the ways you're explaining things

happening in your life, it almost feels

like that where like things are just

happening and you're getting guided in

like the right direction along the way.

Yeah. I think a lot of people think I'm

super aloof, don't know what I'm doing,

just blah blah blah. I guess I do come

off like that. Maybe in this

conversation I'm coming off like that.

But I guess I do want to make it super

clear like I'm I know exactly what I'm

doing like on a daily basis like I'm

taking all the right actions. Totally.

But I think what I am aloof to is like

my own abilities. Uh how good I can be

potentially. Um how good the people

around me can be. Um u obviously I have

a following. You know that helps so

much. I'm aloof to my entire audience in

a sense. I feel like I have zero people

who care about me every day. Uh when I

make stuff when I put something out I'm

like zero people care about this.

>> Zero views basically don't care. Um so

I'm just putting it out with that level

of like disconnection. Um

>> which I think I just gained over the

last 10 years to be honest. Yeah,

>> I think most people maybe in my position

would care a lot about what they put

out. I

>> try to make it perfect and

>> I'm like it's just the opposite. But I'm

definitely not aloof to I'm aloof to a

lot of things, but I think

>> I think all the actions that got me to

this point hopefully to the future

uh are pretty calculated.

>> I have two questions left for you.

>> Yeah. Yeah.

>> The first one is what is going to be the

difference between Buildspace and Hey

Clickie over the next few years?

>> Yeah, it's funny. The companies are

actually very similar. Yeah,

>> it's really interesting

>> now that I know you have the same amount

of money in the bank too like

>> Yeah. also even like just like the

people who like using clickie are like

kind of like build space type people.

>> It's saying like oh this is the unlock

to your dream potential is on the other

side using this product.

>> Isn't that crazy?

>> It's completely that is accidental like

I didn't plan for that in like a

notebook where I'm like clicky is going

to be the next. But you think about even

like the beginning I was like I want to

democratize the models and help people

and unlock themselves. like wait a

second only now am I really am I like

even just talking to you I'm like wait a

second like that's kind of like build

space

>> um

>> cuz you use the same things like whether

you want to learn music whether you want

to learn how to code that's those were

the same things you would say about

>> to be honest I've been wanting to work

on the same company in a way for a while

kind of concept um

>> uh but of course one thing one major

change was two things I'll I'll tell you

the difference between builders and hey

clickie one I'm very focused on this

thing as a business extremely focused uh

I'm not over I'm not overindexed on I'm

not like oh if it doesn't make money

it's trash but I am like every day like

do we make money today or why not how

much money do we lose on that person

like I know exactly how much money we

lose on people now when who come in the

product whereas for billspace like dude

like I remember and billspace would be

like we made a million there we lost two

million there okay next

>> I once asked how I was like so I I asked

someone I was like how do you guys think

about how much money you're spending on

S5 they're like

>> oh that that was a complete that was

completely my fault in a different way

but because I was I was like this is and

let's just let's just put on a good show

and be be off on our way. Um, but that's

one big difference. Just straight up

just I feel like I'm a way I feel like I

don't give myself enough credit for

being a good business person because I

actually really do think I'm a great

business person, but I've never never

showed it. Um, because I kind of work in

this viral consumer land where making a

great business is classically hard. Yes.

Um, but I do think I'm a great business

person. So, I want to show that more to

myself. Um, that's one. Uh and the

second thing the main thing difference

is just being like again not not losing

my head to be honest. Okay.

>> So doing everything possible setting

everything up for myself in my own life

and existence to like you know not not

let that happen. So a lot

a lot of good stuff has happened there.

>> So if we were to go do this podcast

again in two years

>> Mhm.

>> what would you want to have changed by

then to consider the past two years a

success?

>> I think about it like that. I think of

every I think about every day as like a

potential like success where it's like I

always go to sleep thinking like if I

don't wake up tomorrow like today was a

success.

>> Like that's how I that's how I think

about it. Um and so I don't know. I

don't think about it like that. As long

as I'm waking up and I feel like every

day ends being like happy face smiley

emoji uh and uh put out some good work.

I think I think that'd be that'd be

great. Um so I feel like if I overthink

it too much then uh I'm going to it's

going to be too much. That's actually

why, you know, it's funny. My YC

partner, he's he really gets me. He's

known me since I was 22.

>> Aaron. Yeah. Okay.

>> He's known me since Zip school. 23.

>> Oh, wow.

>> And so he's like he's almost like, you

know, far as I think you being all aloof

and not sure what you're doing as a

defense mechanism. Uh because once you

take it too seriously, you psych

yourself out and then you start to like

uh uh you know, take it too seriously

and then you start to uh so it's like

it's like he's like, I think this is a

defense mechanism for you. And I was

like, damn, this guy is why is this is

this guy is this guy my therapist or my

YC partner? That's amazing. Uh and so

it's kind of funny. Yeah,

>> that's a beautiful answer.

>> Yeah. And maybe one more thing I'll say

on the in two years time is just uh um I

index a lot on inspiration now. So it's

like that's my main kind of goal on a

daily basis like how can I feel inspired

in a given day um at least once because

if I feel inspired um I will generally

do something good I think.

>> Amazing. So yeah. Well, you don't know

this, but you're the first episode of

our new podcast.

>> Yeah.

>> So, I'm I'm excited to have you as the

first one. It's going to be called

Profiles.

>> Hi, I'm Ed Olive, and this is my

profile. Hell

>> yeah. Thanks for coming by the podcast.

All right. Oh, a lot of people watching.

Wow. [applause]

Boing us.