Steven Ranck - Creator of HydroThunder | TechJesse Interview #1

All

right. So, welcome to a brand new

section of the channel where I interview

computer revolution pioneers, the unsung

heroes who were there developing the

systems and the games that we love. So,

today I welcome my first guest, a man

who I've known for several years and who

I only recently realized that he made

one of my favorite arcade games in the

90s, Hydro Thunder. Very pleased to

welcome Steve Rank. Welcome, Steve.

>> Thank you, Jesse. I appreciate you

having me. So, I'll go ahead and start

out with your bio, and you can correct

me if anything's wrong on here, but uh

Stephen Rank spent 31 years as a video

game developer, including at Midway,

where he served as project leader for

the arcade game Hydro Thunder, and

worked on other titles, including

Off-Road Challenge and Cruising USA,

among others. He founded and sold two

video game development studios including

Swing and Ape Studios which he sold to

Blizzard and Specular Interactive which

developed H2 Overdrive and Dirty Driving

and was acquired by 2K. He retired

earlier this year. So, thanks for

joining.

>> All facts. Yeah, thanks. It's been over

>> started. So, what uh what made you

pursue a career in video games? Well,

actually, I I started working on games

and just entertaining people through

through games uh back when I was a kid.

And uh I remember this being in my

bedroom and uh this is before I we had a

VCR. There was this commercial that uh

of Gene Rodenberry Star Trek, you know,

guy who created Star Trek. And he was

promoting his Star Trek phaser battle

game. this is a physical game uh that

you know you'd have a little joystick

and you would like you know align your

your target with the Klingons and take

them out stuff like that and I was just

so excited about that and um at the time

I I sort of promoted myself from playing

with blocks as a very young age to

Tinker Toys to Legos and then at that

time I was actually building things with

a um this this construction set called

Fisher Technique which was made in

Germany and only available in the US at

certain certain like very specific

stores. So I had these Fisher techniques

laying around and with these things you

could build mechanical things at

electronic things and I thought, you

know, I thought it'd be really cool if I

could build my own version of the Star

Trek phaser battle. So I would watch TV

and every time that commercial came on,

I'd run to the TV with my notepad and I

just sketched down as much as I could

remember and I just kept on doing that.

And I still have those drawings today of

of of this thing. And I actually made my

own Star Trek phaser battle at the

official technique. And about, you know,

big cardboard box was the housing. This

semi semi-transucent screen with a

starscape that I drew on with stars in

the background. And um and my friends

would come over and I I just did it for

myself, but they would come over and

play it. And I learned that, you know, I

really enjoyed watching people play my

game. And after that, I made a bunch of

other mechanical games, Star Wars games,

and uh you know, uh things like that.

and it, you know, branched out. But

yeah, as a very young kid, I I built

that Star Trek phaser battle game back

when I was 12 years old and just kind of

went from there.

>> What uh what early computers did you

have?

>> My first computer was an Apple 2

computer. And my friend and I used to

ride our bicycles after high school uh

to this little computer place in Brea,

California called uh um Computer Plus.

And the owner there, Mr. Lopez, I

remember his name. He had one employee,

Javier, and Javier was the programmer,

and he would be programming the

computer. And we were fascinated by this

computer. And we were like, you know, my

my friend and I thought, you know, would

Mr. Lopez allow us to actually use one

of his Apple computers? And he did. And

we were surprised. Now, at the time, we

were surprised, but now I realized

because he wanted people to see just how

easy it was for even kids to use an

Apple 2 computer. So we started riding

our bikes down there every single day

and writing games on the Apple 2

computer, learning all about, you know,

the basic uh programming language that

Steve Waznjak had implemented in the

computer. And that was my very first

computer. And I asked my dad if

eventually if he would buy me a computer

for buy me an Apple 2 computer for

Christmas. This is like the beginning of

summer. And I'll never forget this. He

told me, my dad was a very smart man. Uh

he said, "If you save up $200 over the

summer to buy the monitor, then I will

get the computer for you." I worked I

wor mowing lawns, whatever it took. And

I I saved up that $200. And I'll never

forget walking in. I said, "Dad, I have

the $200." I expected him to say, "I

just wanted you to teach you a lesson.

Uh, you know, son, keep the $200." But

no, he took that $200 and uh and applied

it towards the monitor. And then I had

to wait another three months for

Christmas to get the Apple 2 computer,

which I thought was another great lesson

of just patience. And when I got it, I

stayed up all night long that first

night and I learned about assembly

language and I started, you know, hey,

assembly language is is more difficult,

but you can build games that run a lot

faster, you know, and so I I built, you

know, I don't know, hundreds of games

for my Apple 2 computer over over the

years and even eventually went on to

design some addin boards that would plug

into the peripheral slots in the back. I

built a music synthesizer card because

the Apple 2 computer, it could only make

clicks, little clicks, and if you put

the clicks close enough together, it

would make a tone, but it was pretty

lousy. So, uh, I actually designed a

addin board that could play up to three

simultaneous notes, each with its own

envelope. And I eventually modified it

to put a vot

uh, speech synthesizer chip, which

sounds, if you've seen the movie, the

original movie War Games, it sounds

exactly like that. So I can make my

games talk and also make explosion

sounds and things like that.

>> That's awesome. You don't by chance

still have any of those old software and

programs around that you made, do you?

>> I do. I do. Oh, you do? That's awesome.

>> My original Apple 2. Yep. And all the

floppy discs. I don't know if the

floppies are still good. I haven't, you

know, tried it in in decades, of course.

>> That's so cool. I wish I still had my

old systems. I I was able to find my I

had a compact Prisario was my first PC,

my first IBM compatible PC. I had a a

Mac color classic was my first that I

had and I I I but the PC was really

where I started tinkering around and I I

was able to find one and restore it. It

was pretty cool. But uh yeah, it's Yeah,

I don't have don't have the original

though, unfortunately. That's awesome.

You were able to keep it and so uh yeah,

what were some of the games that that uh

do do you do you uh that you still have

that

>> on my Apple too? I probably have them

all at

>> Oh, that's awesome. That's so

>> I if I think back I remember making an

Incredible Hulk game, but you did not

play as the Hulk and you played as uh as

robbers and so it was a top down view of

a city and you'd have to uh you know uh

jump in a car and drive through the city

and they would rob something and then

then the Hulk would jump out and like

leap from building to building you to

escape from things like that. It it was

very low resolution graphics and 40 by

40 was the real resolution.

>> But those are so much fun. That's the

thing is it doesn't take good graphics

to make a fun game. And I think that's

finally what people are realizing. This

trend of retro style like you see

Minecraft is the all-time best most

highest selling game. And it's uh it

looks like the same stuff that 16bit

things are 32 that we were playing not

too long ago. So

>> for sure.

>> Yeah, I guess it I guess it was a while

ago, huh? But uh so uh now well you you

worked for 31 years, but you were you

were in software before that. uh over

over the course of your career, what uh

what changes did you did you witness? I

mean, there were quite a few changes

from the early days to uh when when did

you retire? You just earlier this year.

>> Earlier this year. Yeah.

>> All right. Yeah. So, it changed quite a

bit. What did what did you see over that

time?

>> It did. I I mean, you know, uh I was off

doing in the middle of a career

developing u uh disc drive controllers

uh that could plug into PCs. So, that

was my career at the time. And, you

know, I I worked my way up. I was a a

director of engineering reporting

directly to the CEO of this company in

Irvine, California. And I had a staff of

engineers working for me. And um you

know uh it was a really great job, but a

friend of mine who did recruiting said,

"Hey, uh you know, I know you really

enjoyed making games when you know when

you're a kid. There's a company in San

Diego, Midway Games, that is looking for

somebody." And I thought, are people

actually making money making games?

because at that time you know very few

companies were were actually making this

like this is like early in the mid '90s.

Um so I you know decided just to try it.

So I went down for an interview and fell

in love with the place fell in love with

the people and uh accepted a job there

and you know it it I took a 40% pay

decrease to take this job. I incured a

you know an hour and a half drive each

way because I had owned a house in

Orange County. This is down in San

Diego. But I loved every single moment.

In fact, I got I was having such a great

time. I bought myself a cot to sleep in

in the office because I just like the

drive and being away from developing the

games just got in the way for me. I was

a young kid at the time. It just it was

>> not married, no kids,

>> no kids, no Yeah, exactly. Uh it's just

all I wanted to do. I wanted to learn as

much as possible and, you know, work.

So, I worked on Cruising USA, as you

mentioned earlier, for the Nintendo 64.

That was my first game in the industry.

And then um I I was at on a family

vacation at Lake Powell and I remember

being on top of the houseboat and I if

you're not familiar with Lake Pal, it's

like these narrow canyons, these massive

canyons. It's not like a wide open lake

some areas. And we were in one of these

canyons. And I remember hearing the echo

of this superboat that was approaching,

you know, it just reverberated uh, you

know, throughout the canyons. And I

thought, it's too bad he has to go so

slow because it would be a lot of fun if

he could just open it up on these these

winding turns. And I thought that would

be a really great game. So I put

together a pitch. I I even hired a

concept artist out of my own pocket to

pitch to the company this game. uh at

that time was called Hydro Extreme and

it was exactly that you would just race

these high-speed superboats through you

know various environments and the uh the

company told me if I helped off-road

thunder the off-road thunder team uh on

their multiplayer that they would give

me a small team to put together a

prototype for Hydro Extreme and so I did

that and they g they gave me uh a couple

artists I was the only engineer and uh

we put together this amazing demo demo.

Uh, I mean, truly it was amazing demo.

It wasn't playable. It was just a It was

It was It was animated all in real time,

but you couldn't actually drive the boat

because we only had a couple weeks put

this together. And, um, the CEO came

down for one of his visits. He was

located in Chicago, so he flew into San

Diego for one of his, you know, periodic

visits where he reviewed the the teams,

the various projects. And he they they

swung by our our room. Basically, it's

the small room with no windows. We had

the whole demo set up and we sat him

down and we pitched the whole game to

him and we had no idea what we'd say and

I just remember he he paused, slapped

the table, stood up and said, "Let's do

it." and walked out and we were just

like, "Wait, so is that it?" We like it

on the spot. But of course, the

realization at that point came like,

"Okay, we we're celebrating like this is

awesome. We get to do the game we want

to do, but we had no idea how we were

going to pull this thing off." I know

real time water on the hardware at that

point was uh like nobody had done it

before right so we had to figure all

this stuff out um but it was it was uh

it was fantastic that's how I got my my

start in the video game industry of

course you have many changes over the

years uh to where we are today uh that's

>> you know

>> sorry go ahead

>> was it a proprietary engine did you have

to or did you use another engine for

hydrounder

>> yeah great great question so I I had

developing my own engine just in my free

time while I was employed at at uh at

Midway. And so, uh, once we got green

lit, I just pulled that engine over and,

you know, continue working on it. But

the really cool thing about Hydro

Thunder was that the I I always felt

that that interactive development is is

that you're going to get the best

results with interactive development,

meaning that you'll be able to tweak

things while playing the game. So we

invested a lot of time in developing

tools that allowed um everyone in the

team uh to to modify the game while

playing the game.

>> So basically you would launch the game

and you would see it on the arcade

monitor. So we have two monitors on our

desk. I know it's nothing from for now

but back then that was that was amazing,

right? So we had one monitor which was

the coin out monitor. We had the other

one monitor which was our development

monitor and we wrote tools window based

Windowsbased tools that ran on the

development monitor and connect in real

time over the network to the game

running on a separate PC driving the

driving the coin monitor and we will be

able to be driving the boats and while

we're driving it have somebody next to

us tweaking the parameters here's the

mass here's the motive of inertia here's

acceleration here's the buoyancy

whatever else right and so we were able

to tweak each and every boat uh like

that over the course of the development

of the project which allowed us to come

up with, you know, all those boats that

have very different uh, you know,

characteristics when you're driving it.

Well, we went further than that. We

actually had a world building tool that

again we crafted ourselves that allowed

artists to place lights in real time.

So, we were able to light the canyons of

late pallet knight, you know, with fire

light and things like that, the animated

uh we were able to modify the water

characteristics. So, this is choppy

water, this is smooth water, this is

reflective water, whatever. It's all in

real time right there while playing the

game. And this allowed us to have a very

small team that was able to create at

that time one of the most I think

visually uh uh uh it just visually the

game stood out because people had not

seen this before in arcade. Um and uh

you know I owe it all to and I remember

management coming down to us every parox

hey we're not seeing any progress in the

game because we were working on the

tools at the time. We spent a good six

months on the tools. Mhm.

>> I just kept on telling them, you know,

you know, trust me, trust me, we're, you

know, once we have the tools and we

you'll see a lot of rapid progress on

the game. And that's exactly what what

happened.

>> It'd be cool to make those open source

now and and have it where somehow people

could be making their own. It's it's

it's interesting that that actually be

like talking about Minecraft. Minecraft

was essentially that where you're

modifying the game or building the game

as you're playing it and that became the

game was make the game.

>> That's a good point.

>> Yeah. And it's it's funny that that a

lot of a lot of folks didn't really uh

uh grasp that concept uh early on, but

yeah, Mojang made quite the hit with it.

>> But uh yeah, I wanted to see too what

what now that talking about the tools

now there's so many out there. Are you

still making games? Are there are you

using GDAU or Unity or any of the any of

the stuff that's that's available uh

open source or their subscription based

programs? Are are you currently

tinkering around with anything?

>> I I am not. You know, I've been retired

since February and I'm just finding my

interest doing other things now,

learning different things I've never had

time to learn before. And I'm actually

enjoying playing games now. Whereas back

when I was developing them, I didn't

have a whole lot of time, especially

running the companies, to play a lot of

games. Um, I've played, you know, a few

of the the most popular ones, but now

I'm just I'm just having fun like going

through all these older games that I

never had a chance to play and enjoy

myself doing that.

>> That's awesome. Yeah. The uh the now you

built and sold two companies. What was

it like? What was the inspiration to

start your own company? How did that

process work?

>> That's another great great question.

Yeah. So, I just finished up Hydro

Thunder and we were starting to work on

Hydro Thunder 2 and a game called Stock

Carnage, which was a, you know, stock

car game kind of in the spirit of of

Hydro Thunder. And um, but I I'd always

wanted to have my own company and I

decided to to leave on very good terms

uh, Midway and just try it out. So

myself and two other of the Hydro

Thunder team uh from from Midway uh

joined me and we started uh Swinging a

Studios. Uh we started Swinging Nip

Studios

in um in 2000

and we started working as just doing

contracting work with developing an

engine for another development team was

working on a project with the Vindy and

uh uh that project fell through with

them. So they had to stop funding us

which was you know this is like we're

maybe a year into the company. So we had

to really tighten our belts at that

point. We stopped take the three of us

started to stop taking salary and uh you

know we were very uh open to all of our

employees and uh we had toyed around

with this idea about a

um a robot fighting game like a shooter

where you play the robot you went to

different planets and fought various

enemies and we decided to you know come

up with a demo a playable demo for that

and shop that around and we did come up

a playable demo which was really fun and

we shopped it around and ultimately

Sierra uh was interested in that game

and so they ultimately signed for us to

do that game for them and they were

owned by Vivventi. So Vivi was the

publisher for that. So and that game

turned out to be metal arts glitch the

system which is it's still I just you

know go to YouTube every once in a while

people are still playing the game and

playthroughs. It's it's pretty it's

pretty fun to see that. Uh,

>> it's awesome seeing the resurgence,

seeing things that it's it's really

there's guys our age that are suddenly

now we've got kids too and anyone over

40 is looking back at this stuff. We've

got kids and especially as we start to

retire, uh, we've got time and so yeah,

we we're reminiscing and finding old

games. I I love discovering old games

that I never played in the 90s. I I just

played through I'm about halfway

through, I should say, Beneath a Steel

Sky, which was one of the

point-and-click adventures that I I

mean, I I would have loved this game

when I was a teenager, but I uh I I

didn't even hear about it, but I'm

looking at, okay, what are some other

obscure titles and and things from that

era, and it's it's it's kind of neat

because, yeah, you feel like a kid again

playing these things and discovering new

things and yeah, it's really fun. But to

to answer your question, yeah, so uh

>> we we had always anticipated in Metal

Arms being a trilogy, but the game al

although it was critically wellreceived

um the financially it just did not do

very well and so we could not proceed

with the sequels to that game. But uh we

caught like the game was was a it was a

lot of fun and we were able to develop

this game from scratch, develop

everything our ourselves and that caught

the interest of Blizzard and they

contacted us and asked if we wanted to

to uh take over Starcraft Ghost which we

did. That ultimately didn't work out. Uh

there's lots of information online as to

why that didn't work out but uh Blizzard

ultimately decided to purchase us which

we we agreed to and we we became part of

Blizzard. I stuck around for about a

year and then left and took a year off

to develop my own technology again and I

um uh ultimately started a new studio uh

which is Spectular Interactive uh doing

arcade games.

>> What was the difference? It's it had to

be quite a cultural shock uh going from

the smaller independent studio to uh the

corporate culture. What was that like?

What were the differences?

It it was really interesting because

obviously Blizzard is tremendously

successful. So we wanted to adopt a lot

of their methodology. At the same time,

you know, we wanted to keep our culture

and I think those two things were were

they were at opposing um angles to to

each other. So um you know, we

eventually we found a middle ground and

uh yeah, but ultimately I decided to

leave after after a year. It just didn't

um it didn't have the same vibe.

>> Yeah. Yeah. I imagine it's quite the

bureaucracy, too. When when companies

get that big, it uh Yeah. It's tough for

them to keep keep that that uh that

culture of because it's essentially art.

I mean, it really is. This is this is an

art form and and when you uh when you

mix up all the corporate rules into it,

it's like, okay, how do you how do you

let artists thrive? So it's yeah it's

it's it it's quite a uh I I had a little

corporate experience. I I was my first

game uh that I made. I never had any

successful hits and actually never never

pursued or never never realized my dream

of being a video game designer other

than independent games. It was

interesting. I I had all always dreamed

of working in tech and I graduated right

a few months after graduated from high

school right a few months after the.com

bust. And so it's like okay and then I

went for computer science and by the

time I I was graduated it was bottom of

the recession just very very much not uh

not conducive to to that career but yeah

in hindsight I mean I would be I'm 42

now and the the industry has really it's

changed so much. I actually took uh took

somebody to lunch

um recently, Scott Miller, who used to

run 3D Realms and Apogee and made Duke

Nukem and I mean all these great games

that that his company made. And I asked

if he has I said, "Hey, where's where's

your studio?" And he said, "No,

everybody's working remotely. If I if I

had a studio, it would it would be tough

to pay folks now. There's so much uh so

to have any overhead." head and I'm just

thinking, man, these it's just so

saturated. If if if Scott Miller

can't can't have a studio that that

would be profitable, a physical studio.

It's it's really tough. Uh it would be

tough for for anyone starting out. It's

just very saturated. And uh yeah, the

tools are right there.

>> Change.

>> Yeah, I couldn't believe it. I

>> started back when we started Swing

Native Studios. That was a sweet spot.

you know, we uh you know, it it was back

when, you know, developers worked with

larger studios to publish their games

and you had really good relationship

with your publishers and you would

deliver milestones. They would pay you

and, you know, you would use that

payment to pay your employees and pay

for, you know, your office and

everything else open with the office,

>> you know. Um, but yeah, it'd be really

tough today. I I don't I don't think I

would have the courage, nevertheless,

the energy to start a video game

development company now. Uh just because

I'm I'm so old school that I I think of

it in the old days in the Swinging

Studios and the specular days. Uh but

today it's it's completely different and

it's it's foreign to me and I don't um

particularly find it uh as appealing

personally.

>> Right. Yeah. It's it's more it's it's

fun. I mean, it's it's really there's

there's got to be some niches that are

still profitable, but overall it's just

I I'm just having fun with it. I

downloaded the GDAU program, uh that

engine, and it was within I I put maybe

10 hours of work into it following

YouTube tutorials and I had a working

game that was fun, a little

sidescroller, and it's just crazy. I

mean, that would take months and months

back back in the day. Yeah, the tools

are all there and anyone can make a

game. It's It's really changed a lot.

>> But, uh, yeah, I mean, where where do

you uh I don't know, where do you see

the industry heading? I'm curious since

you've you recently got out, we we

discussed a little bit about where it's

at, how saturated it is, where where do

you think it's going?

>> That's a great question. I think

everybody's asking them theelves that

question, right? Uh, you know, I I am

concerned for the smaller studios. There

are so many games being released a year

through Steam. Uh it's hard to gain any

traction. Uh it's, you know, even even

really great games that are available on

Steam are are struggling. I you of

course you hear about the successes, but

they're so few and far between. Very low

percentage of them. Uh for as for the

larger studios, they certainly have the

resources to continue to develop games.

But I think they're shying away from,

you know, uh, from new IP and they're

instead leaning into their existing IP

and investing, you know, 90% of the

resources into into those IPs. So, um,

yeah, it's, uh,

where do I see it going? I mean, I I

think that you'll have a few smaller

developers that are that are successful,

and I think the larger developers and

publishers, I think they'll continue to

be okay. Yeah, it's I just read in the

Wall Street Journal the uh uh company

Electronic Arts is

>> I saw that

>> looking at going private right now and

uh there's some investors and it it

looks like the valuation's around $50

billion. So the big guys are still very

strong. It's tough to compete with that.

That's the thing is I I made a few

independent titles even 20 years ago and

it was it was without the marketing

budget. It it it's it how do you compete

uh with with with those folks? And yeah,

but uh there's also a few technology

changes such as AI, where where do you

see AI playing into into the industry?

>> Yeah. So when I was when I was uh still

with 2K earlier this year before I

retired, you know, that was a big

question over the past or the previous

year as we start looking at AI as tools.

Uh I think we're still a ways from AI

replacing jobs, but certainly AI you

know we were able to lean on AI for the

generation of of uh you know textures

and to some extent models and even

animations. In fact, one of the tools

that we evaluated was this tool where

you could take your iPhone and uh record

somebody doing whatever a dance or doing

whatever move you want and it would

actually take that and turn it into 3D

data that you could then use to drive a

3D model. It wasn't I'd say maybe it was

40% there, but I could see that, you

know, becoming 100% uh o over the next

few years. um which just I think it

makes all all the components needed to

make a video game more accessible to

those without the resources of a large a

large publisher.

>> Right?

>> So I think that's a good that's good in

a way because it means that you know

hobbyists who really have maybe have a

vision of a video game in their mind

they can use these tools you know maybe

collaborate with or maybe couple Unreal

Engine along with some of these AI tools

to make their their vision come come to

life. Um

but uh

but the the downside is that you'll have

a lot of people a lot more people

competing.

>> Right. Right. Yeah. Definitely. And it

makes it easier for like you said

independent uh guys to have the

resources because I I played around a

little bit the other day uh with one of

the AI programs and generating pixel art

and it it came up with just beautiful

stuff and it's like okay and now animate

this pixel art to do this and it just

does it and it's like this would be uh

quite pricey but then it comes into

there's some there's legalities. It's

like okay is it who owns it? who's the

uh it also pulls its data from

the web. So there it might pull

something that is already uh that might

infringe on somebody else's work. And

>> yeah, it's it's it's got got a lot it's

it's definitely

>> I think it it's it's an unstoppable

force, but uh but it's it's it's got

it's got a a ways to go to direct it in

the right way. But yeah, we'll

definitely see some impacts there. I've

always thought it would be cool to have

a a game that changes every time you

play it because it's run by AI and it's

like it's generating new worlds and new

story and I mean it would that would

just be

>> I'm sure.

>> Yeah, I'm sure it it's going to happen.

Uh, one thing I wanted to address too is

the social aspect of games. So the more

connected that we become

technologically, the the less connected

we are as people. And and that's

something that I think we're seeing a

tremendous impact on mental health in uh

in not just America but in in the

Western world. Uh particularly in kids.

I mean when we were kids, I remember

games were very social. you would go to

the arcade and you would hang out with

your friends and you would uh if you had

a Nintendo you would invite your friends

over and you'd be playing uh playing

together and it was it was very social

and then then it changed. I mean even

even in the 90s was probably the last

where we'd have land parties and that

was I mean I still I started hosting

them again uh every spring and fall. Our

next one is actually this weekend, but

but I've got a group of nerds that we

get together and lug old CRTs that we've

found in e-waste and we network uh our

computers and play the games. It's very

fun, but and I think it feels recharging

for the soul just to be together and and

playing games uh with real people in

person. Uh but the highspeed internet

essentially uh ended that and and now

you see people very disconnected and I I

I wanted to just just hear your thoughts

on that. how I mean where where things

are going on uh as far as making games

more social and making making uh

addressing the mental health issue. What

are your thoughts on on that?

>> Yeah, I I 100% agree with what you said

there. I remember the days the arcade

days where we would go to the arcade

with our friends and you know you meet

new people there, you could interact

with people, you would play multiplayer

games with the same screen. It was

really a social event and like you said

that graduated to play Nintendo uh couch

play, you know, or even just one-on-one.

It was it was just a uh it was it was

different time, right? Um you we still

have some of that. I played through it

Takes Two, which has couch play. Have

you played It Takes Two? Is it screen?

>> Oh, it's a fantast fantastic game. But

it's couch play, right? So you you play

alongside somebody else. I played

through that twice. uh once with my son

and once with somebody else and uh you

know that you know there is no replacing

that like if they supported remote play

it it would not have been the same

experience but having somebody next to

you where you can interact and you feel

their energy somehow right and you

interacted with each other on that

energy level it's it's irreplaceable um

that same company who made it takes 2

came out with split fiction which is

also a tremendous game I I think it's

probably my favorite game of all time,

but it also has couch play, which I

played through it the entire one with

the entire games, maybe 25 hours of

gameplay sitting next to somebody. But

that game does have remote play as well.

So, uh was a little disappointed in

that. Um I don't have an answer for

this, but I uh I mean, the more we can

bring people together in the same room,

again, the the better. Over here, I

built an arcade behind this door here.

arcade. I have uh two H2 overdrives,

three dirty drive-ins, two pinball

machines, and uh you know, a a PS5 where

we play split fiction and it takes two.

>> That's awesome. Uh I've noticed that

yeah the uh the neighborhood kids have

been starting to come by you know a lot

more playing together and uh it's a

really good thing you know but yeah too

you know too much I see them on their

phones and uh you know just playing in

isolation u physically and I don't think

that's a good direction person. I know

it's a controversial thing to say, but I

I do feel this it is an issue and I

don't see that ever changing

unfortunately.

>> Yeah. I think I mean it's it's it's it's

got to reach a reach a breaking point. I

mean there's it's up to the individual.

You can uh I really try to uh limit the

time of my kids and try to try to limit

my own especially on social media. It's

very uh I guess I don't know. It's soul

crushing when you're when you're

scrolling through and seeing fight

videos and random junk that's being

pushed to to the feed.

>> The comments the comments are all

terrible

>> and the comments are tell people

fighting and hiding behind uh the fake

screen names. I mean the worst of

humanity comes out just trying to

destroy each other and it's very

draining whereas when you're playing a

game in person it's very recharging.

It's very I mean we are social

>> that's a great way of putting it.

>> Yeah. And it's and I think uh I think

people are starting to realize that but

it takes it takes discipline. I I I I

would love to see more social games come

out and more people focused on it. It's

good good seeing a resurgence in uh

arcades and stuff like that. There are

some coming back. I've got a friend that

started one in Northern California that

uh that that actually has he's got four

Hydro Thunders.

>> No kidding. Right.

>> Yeah. And it's always packed. It's

really it's really cool to see. There's

another one that's that they're

remodeling uh that somebody else is

opening up nearby and and it's it's it's

kind of coming back. I just don't know

past my generation. It's coming back

because because we're we're all still

around, but another 30, 40 years, will

that continue? I I I really doubt this

younger generation will have a have too

much of an interest in in in hanging out

at the arcade and they just don't have

the nostalgia for it. So, but it it is

important for people to get together, be

in person and and take a break once in a

while from from the tech or or take a

break from just one one from individual

games and play with a friend. So, yeah,

wanted wanted to ask you last question.

What what are your plans for the future?

>> Uh, you know, I don't see video game

development in my future. I've done that

for 31 years uh professionally and

before that just on my own. Uh right now

I'm just uh I'm just trying to learn new

things. For example, I got into 3D

printing. I never knew anything about 3D

printing. Never had the time to do it.

And I've uh I've connected with a local

maker space here and learned all about

3D printing and taught myself Fusion

360. There's a ton of YouTube videos.

Fusion 360 is a modeling software and uh

was able to to make some really I think

u gratifying designs that were were 3D

printed through through you know a lot

of improvement trial and error and uh

improvements that way. Uh and recently I

got into extending Fusion 360 through

Python. You can create these add-ins and

I need a specific addin and uh it didn't

exist the way I wanted to or needed to

exist. So I I learned that whole world.

So yeah just you know branching off

doing different things. I don't I don't

uh you know don't plan on starting any

more companies uh or you know adding

more stress to my life.

>> Enjoying life. Enjoying the the less

stress. Yeah, you've earned it. So,

well, thank you very much for joining

me. It

>> was a pleasure, Jesse.