The Charlie Puth Interview

I don't know how to read soulfetch, but

I can read all the notes and sing.

>> That's soulfetch would be something

that'd be difficult for for having

perfect pitch to to do. When did you

figure out that you had this?

>> When I was 12 years old. Um cuz I grew

up playing in church and these are the

days of tape cassettes and they would

play um whenever the organist wouldn't

you know show up they they would play

the cassette the

which all that music has seemed to

disappear from the church. I don't

really understand why. It's really

catchy and great. Um, but when you hear

it over and over and over again, you

tend to uh uh just remember it like

reading a paragraph. Like uh if if you

read like a passage of a book enough

times, you're going to memorize it. So I

always looked at music in the same way.

If you hear something a number of times,

you're going to memorize it. So I

thought that everybody could do it. and

when like I guess the tape machine

didn't work one day or the organist

didn't show up and I decided to show off

and run up there and play the entire

mass from memory. Um and that was when I

was 12 years old but under the

assumption that it was just like a

normal human thing to do.

>> Did you play piano already? Had you

taken lessons or anything or no? Yeah, I

had just uh I had been playing jazz for

two years, but uh

>> primarily classical piano, all the

which I'm probably a little rusty at

now, but um just loving hearing moments

notice.

Moments notice. Yeah.

[music]

[singing]

Da da da da [music] da da da da da

[singing] da da da.

>> Woo. Like like that those little I know

those are two five chords. Like they it

just felt like a swirl to me and I

always loved learning songs that had

that. Um but same thing with that too. I

would read the fake books but I would

much prefer listening to the CD and just

memorizing it.

>> Would you do it and play the piano along

with it or you could just hear it and

remember what it was and just play it?

>> I would remember it better if I didn't

have the piano in front of me. If I just

listen to it

five, ten times in a row and then be,

okay, I got it and then I could go to

the piano. For for whatever reason, if I

had the piano and I was trying to

remember it, it wouldn't come as easy.

But I was I would just play it over and

over again. And then,

>> you know, when you do your thing where

you talk about you you were uh showing

how things are pitched up and things

like that, right? You just you did just

edited like Instagram thing like that.

When you heard things that were out of

pitch like that, sped up or slowed down,

did it bother you?

>> It didn't bother me. I was just

fascinated by it. I remember there was

this radio station, 101.1 WCBS FM, still

exists. And they would make music

faster, speed up,

>> speed it up so they could play more

music in between the ads. And I I

remember listening to the you and me

used to [music] be together by don't

speak

>> wonderful song but don't speak I heard

oh

>> like I would hear it like a little sharp

and I would asked my mom like, "Why is

it sound different on the radio than it

does on the CD?" And they couldn't

really answer that for me at the time.

>> Now, who said, "Charlie, you have

perfect pitch." It's was there a teacher

that said this?

>> Yes, there was a teacher named Min Kim,

who was my classical piano teacher at

Manhattan School of Music, who told me I

had this. Um, and I remember asking her

like, "If I don't practice listening, am

I going to forget it?" And she says,

"No, it stays with you for a lifetime."

Which, you know, controversial take, who

knows? Um, but I it hasn't left me

since.

>> There's a lot of Beatles songs that are

pitched differently. There a lot of old

old music and they would speed the

things up to, as you said it, sweeten

the audio.

>> Sweeten the audio. I I always thought

that, you know, in people that I've

interviewed that are that have made

those classic records, a lot of times

they do it to where they want the groove

to be a little bit

>> faster, whatever. But it wouldn't bother

you that it was out of tune.

>> No, because nothing bothers me if it's

all out of tune,

>> right? If it's uniformly.

>> Like I just bought this piano um from

1960 and unfortunately during its

delivery it kind of fell. So half of the

piano was completely out of tune, but

the other half of the piano, there's

only 77 keys on it,

>> but the other half is completely in

tune.

>> I won't touch it until it's completely

fixed because it like makes me sad.

Like, but if it were all out of tune,

like this is [music]

this is perfectly in tune. This is a

crispy Yamaha perfectly in tune piano.

>> Is it is it too in tune?

>> There is such a thing as too in tune.

Um,

>> that add nine chord there [music] is is

I can tell it doesn't have any beating

it at all.

>> No, there's no there's [music] it's it's

quite they probably tune this. Did you

guys tune this today?

>> It got tuned today. Yeah.

>> Yeah. I can tell like it's perfect.

That's fine. But if a guitarist comes in

and it's really off and they didn't tune

it, [music] I'm going to obviously have

an issue with that. But if it's a little

if it's like 5 cents down, that's kind

of cool. could make the record a little

wider.

>> Speaking of that, when harmonies are

perfectly tuned, if you take if you use

autotune and you tune things

>> to a tuning grid, let's say it

>> Yeah.

>> Does it uh because there's no kind of

natural chorusing,

>> right?

>> That you think it makes things sound

smaller?

>> Absolutely it does. It's um we we just

recorded a orchestra on uh this album,

Whatever is Clever. Not I promise I'm

not trying to sneak it in. This is a

good example.

>> I have it. I have it right here.

>> There you go. We had 19 orchestral

members and not 20 because we were so

nervous in like the small space. It was

like about this and that's really geeky.

We 20 would have been fine, but 19 just

felt a little I don't know if it's like

placebo. It just like it felt wider. It

felt like a little less perfect having

not a perfect number in there. But yes,

when you when you tune the hell out of

your vocals, it I think it also takes

the emotion. I've definitely overtuned

my vocals in the past on past works.

>> If something is tuned and it sounds I um

>> will you say something like uh let's not

tune that so much. Can we untune these

things or whatever? Or will you sing

things

>> spec on purpose slightly flat or

something to make it double sound

fatter?

>> Or do you not really think about it? I'm

not really thinking about it like that.

If it's too tuned, in all honesty, if

I'm doing the vocal production, I just

delete it and res it because I I

probably live with it at that point for

a couple weeks and I I I can just I'm

more relaxed in my delivery of it. I'll

do that sometimes. I'll spend so much

time working on a lead vocal and uh and

you know, just like punching in and it's

just like it starts to lose its

naturalness. It's like I you always

strive for things to sound like take

four or take five just completely. So

after that I'm just like let's just do a

take now that I'm acquainted with the

song and then it it feels that ends up

being the take.

>> Do you think that uh the average

listener that listens to pop music that

there's only a certain level of

complexity that they can um accept for

pop music? I mean, if you listen to She

Loves You [music and singing]

Loves You.

>> Well, that doesn't have complex harmony,

but if you did uh [music]

>> But but when you

>> That's right. Yes. Yes.

>> That's I mean, it's not complex, but

that's for for a song of that lyrical

like she loves you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

She loves you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. She

loves you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. To have

that little twist in there, that little

[music] almost beach voice.

to that resolve is that's I think that's

a no I don't think I I think in pop

popular music always begs to have like

some little twist in it. You don't have

to put yourself in a box. You

>> used to do a lot of

>> Tik Tok things and well maybe not I

guess you post them to all different

things but you would show kind of your

production process.

>> Yeah. And when I was first starting to

post on Instagram and stuff, I'd look at

what you did and I thought that I was

like, "Oh, Charlie really knows how to

do something and present an idea in

>> 30 seconds. You you produce like you

would you would do a production idea or

something. You're working out a song. I

wonder if I did this

>> and then I did and then maybe I I used

to sound like this and I did this."

>> Yeah. Kind of the reverse engineering uh

visual engineering at the time. Um,

yeah, some of some of those were um some

of them were pre-planned, but not too

like not spent hours beforehand. It was

when I say pre-planned, it meant me

getting a soda at Conway where I was

basically living at the time and

thinking, okay, I have if I do that, I

have a mental checklist. Okay, let's

just so we let's just record this that

that so we have it in our back pocket.

Okay, record. Here we go.

take one and then I just like and I like

I do the claps and I line up everything.

There's some there's some pre- stuff

that goes into it, but for the most part

it was really like happen stance like oh

let's like and then on take four I'm

like wait I don't I'm going to redo

that. I'm going to do I'm going to use a

different sound or something. I kind of

go with the flow a little bit.

>> Tell me about about the relationship of

social media

uh and how you actually promote your

music. I don't just mean you. I mean

just artists in general nowadays,

contemporary artists and how they use

social media to promote their music and

if it's changed even in the last 3 years

or so is it any different than it was?

>> Yeah, it's definitely changed in I think

it's changed in the last month. It's a

>> explain.

>> Meaning

I think the one the one thing I will say

that the the thing that is always going

to stay true is that a good song is a

good song. A uh I I I don't think

anybody should be adjusting their music

to the likes of social media. If like a

hundred people vote in like I don't like

that drum snare. I played with that a

little bit and be like, should I release

this? I knew damn well I was going to

release it. I just wanted to gauge

interest and

>> if or compare a song and should this

song come out first or should this song

come out first? because the record

labels didn't really even there was a

point in time where I was given a list.

You're going to go to this radio

station. You're going to go to this

person. You're going to shake. You're

going to make sure you say hello to this

person because they're going to give you

all the spins.

>> And that doesn't really it exists, but

it comes a little bit later in the

cycle. Now, um radio's still like a

really important thing for every artist.

It's just like

>> it can come in the beginning, it can

come in the middle, it can come in the

end. whereas it needed to come in the

very beginning. Um, but I don't know, I

remember making music for MySpace and

getting excited when 10,000 people would

go in my sound click that was linked to

it and I would go to Ustream TV.tv and

blog TV and like, you know, document the

process of making that song live. It's

it's all the same stuff. It's uh, but

the thing that's remained the same is if

the song is going to resonate with

people, it's going to resonate with

people. And what makes a song resonate

with people?

>> I think a push and pull constantly.

>> Okay. For example,

>> like you listen to

[music]

[music]

like voice leading

that's like especially on this [music]

brilliantly tuned piano. F# minor da da

[singing] da da da [music] like that.

Even the most unmusical person, they can

feel energetically that something is

holding you and then releasing you,

holding, releasing you. And when you

have a bunch of hold and release, hold

and release, whatever, however people

want to interpret that in a 3minut song,

that's it's it's almost like a

controlled explosion. like a car engine

is just a series of controlled

explosions under the hood or wherever

they are now. [laughter] Um, and it's

just that packaged in a really nice

song. And then, oh, then you add lyrics

that are part of a conversation that you

said yesterday, not melodically. Oh, and

then you have a melody that does like

the the dissonance and resolve.

Dissonance and resolve too with the

relatable lyric. I believe that could be

what a hit song is.

>> When you have a hit song, is it easier

to go back and say, "Well, this is

probably why it's a hit as opposed to

before where you're like, "Ah, should

this be a single? I don't know." And

>> I just I don't think anybody knows what

it is. I don't think anybody would have

predicted that if the Kate Bush record

were in the Stranger Things episode that

there would be this renaissance of Gen

Zers and all the and Gen Alpha going and

checking out K Bush records and then

>> them discovering that there there's uh

music that preceded the year 2010 and

now even that is sounding kind of

nostalgic and fun. Uh, I just I I just

know in the mechanics of the chords. Um,

if you listen to All Too Well by Taylor

Swift,

simplest [music] chord progression.

Where's it going? Where's it going?

It's almost like it's begging like you

like like you're like the human body can

predict where it's spiritually going

before uh before it happens. And that's

why people sometimes are like, "Oh, I

feel like I've heard this song before."

It's like you, that's a whole different

discussion. Maybe the song was written

millions of years ago and we're just

songwriters tapping into like channeling

it.

>> Yeah. Channeling it to some other art

form that existed many many moons ago.

But I think uh uh when a when someone

can anticipate [music]

[music]

>> which started out as a piano like kind

of a David Fostery kind of piano thing

and ended up turning into Stay by Kid

Loy and Justin Bieber. I just right

place, right time. Maybe Justin Bieber

is a superstar and the Roy was having a

is having a huge moment. Brilliant

songwriters.

Came out when on a Friday night when

everyone was on their phones. I I don't

know. It's just like kind of bullseye.

>> So, you have a new record that's coming

out.

>> I do. Whatever's clever, my fourth

album.

>> Tell me about the process of writing

this. And what do you do when you're

starting to write a new record? Are you

do you have songs already sitting around

kind of waiting for it and then you just

start adding to it typically?

>> Well, for the first time I didn't have

any songs in my head for this. I started

with a blank slate with Bloodpop and I

wanted to work with Bloodpop on this

record because I really wanted to be

challenged musically. I I very rarely

sit at a piano and write a song because

I just I can hear the chord before it

hits my you know fingers. So, it's best

for me to hear a weird, ambiguous,

almost non-instrument sometimes, and

then turn it into music. Uh, uh, there's

a song Changes, which is what the record

starts with. Um, it's an F major. Has a

very classic [music] kind of Genesis

Phil Collins pedal F,

but that's I didn't sit at the piano and

be like, I'm going to write a song

called Changes. It's going to [music]

sound pretty

and then it's going to kind of break

down into this toto

[music]

sounds great and I can't wait to do it

live. But the song started while

Bloodpop was coding a game doing

something completely opposite from

making music. I've never made music like

this before. He was coding a game kind

of tapping into his subconscious while I

was just playing chords and then he gave

me a sound. That's the best way I can

describe it. He gave me a sound that I

really couldn't describe, but it was

playing

that chord. [music]

Like that should be a guitar, but it

wasn't a guitar. It's

[music]

>> I don't know what it was. Um, and then

we took it out of his computer and then

added the classical instrumentation.

>> Okay, let me let me actually play the

song, Charlie. Yeah, that might be.

How's that?

[music]

>> [music]

>> You know what I mean? It's like that.

Then it turned into

>> the guitar. Then it sounded classic like

a band, but it originally started like

as this like almost computergenerated

uh but made by us humans, but it like

really computerized music.

>> The guitar sound that's happening here,

>> it's fake.

>> Yeah. Is that you [music] playing it

though?

took the loop and melodine the notes.

Okay.

[music]

[singing]

>> There's been a lot [music] of smaller

dogs.

When we were [music] younger, [singing]

we would share our fears. Now we're

[music] afraid of being lost.

I still can hear through all of the

silence.

Do you need any [music] help? [singing]

Calling like I did. There's been some

changes [music] here and life. I can

feel the distance

[music]

made everything

day and [music] night.

Everything is changing. I don't know

why. [music]

>> Okay. So Charlie, when I hear that

>> that chord there, what is it? It's like

uh G over C when it goes

>> in the in the chorus the

[music]

>> No, in the in the chorus part.

>> Oh, yeah.

>> In [singing and music] our life. Oh, I

can feel

[singing and music]

[singing]

[music]

>> I hear that seventh in there. Sounds

like there's seventh and the ninth in

there. And the like what is it? G over

C. Da da da.

>> Yeah, that one.

>> S G over [music] C, right?

>> G over C.

>> Uh, it's like F over uh [music]

>> F over B flat.

>> Yeah, like I don't have perfect pitch,

Charlie, but that's

>> Well, that's damn close. That's

>> F over B flat. So that to me, that chord

>> is the hook.

>> Like when I hear that, I'm like, that's

the hook. That's what makes me want to

come back.

>> Really? That's

>> that particular thing because of the

that dissonance in there.

>> Ah,

>> that dissonance. If you had straight B

flat major, it doesn't have the same.

Absolutely.

>> It does not have the thing.

[music]

>> Sounds lame. Absolutely. It's a there

there's a real but like that's that's

the emotion. That's what that's what

people attribute emotion uh in.

>> It's that dissonance in there. You hear

that that seventh [music] interval in

there. you listen to like Toto records

the [music]

uh

>> that won't hold you back,

>> but there's part

>> that [music] the whole You're right. The

whole hook of that like

the

lame.

>> Yes,

>> that's that's okay. Well, also the pre

chorus of that song when it do this

[music]

[singing]

>> and then it does [music]

>> I don't know lyrics.

[music]

So,

>> well, the other part of that that's

great is that it goes the bridge, the

guitar solo thing. It's like E flat.

[music and singing]

Yeah,

[music]

there's that reminds me of like uh Eric

Carman All by Myself. The kind sim same

key too.

>> Steve Lugther told me when they were

recording that song they didn't have the

bridge.

>> So they were getting ready to record.

He's like we need a bridge. And he sat

down the piano and in like two seconds

he wrote that.

>> That's you're not thinking. He probably

wasn't overthinking, right? I would

assume he wasn't overthinking. That's so

smart. that that I a lot of my favorite

songs have those dissonant moments and

they feel like the hook just the

instrumental.

>> Okay, I want to go back to this so

people know what we're talking about

when they're listening about that

particular chord. What what happens

there?

>> Yeah.

>> Everything is changing. [music]

I don't know why

I used to hear your [music and singing]

voice inside my head. But now I forget

what it sounds like.

And all [music] the things we used to

leave unsaid.

I wish they were said in hindsight.

I [music] feel through all of the

silence.

Do you need any help?

>> [music]

>> I [singing] got

this.

I feel

too much

[music]

here.

>> [music]

>> hard. No music.

>> Wait, so is that you playing that?

>> That is me playing. I actually reached

out to Bruce Hornsby to see if he wanted

to um play on it and I left that section

blank and he

>> So you played something that Bruce would

have played then.

>> Absolutely. and [laughter] and I was

like, why not reach out to because this

album is about honoring the musicians,

you know, why I'm here doing this. Um,

he wrote back a really nice email and

said, I don't really know what I can add

to this. This sounds like a done record.

And I was like, wow, that's he because

any maybe anybody else would be like,

oh, I'll just like take a whack at it.

But like he knew that. And I'm listening

to it. I'm like, wait, it feels kind of

done because I gave my

>> I thought it was Bruce playing that.

Like I didn't I was like I wonder if

Charlie's playing it or if Bruce Horn's

playing it.

>> Yeah, that's the hard part. Getting like

>> in your left hand [music]

[music]

lot of mushrooms while we were making

[laughter] that song. So it's probably

where that uh where that came from. So,

so let's talk about the about the groove

and things like that and how much you

get involved with that with programming

and things like that. Tell me your

process with that.

>> Tons of program drums uh that again

started on Blood Pops Gamer PC. Y

>> um really like baked in loops

like the kick has even hearing it now

it's like has so much reverb on it. Um,

and most of the time my mixes are very

clean and I make sure that they're all

carved out perfectly. And I really, and

he helps me do this, too. He can, he's

made songs like that, too. But we really

wanted to

>> make a mix that purposely felt slammed,

that still felt dynamic, but

>> when you say slammed for people

>> over like very compressed, like very

sounds very loud. When you press play,

it's like whoa. There's no there's no

room to breathe. But there is in like

the bridge when we take all the music

out and it's just the drums. But the the

groove, I wanted it to feel like bongoy.

I wanted it to feel uh like a like a

cassette deck, like a like a BMW in a

hot summer day and you can smell the

leather or something. Um, I wanted it to

like I wanted the record to like smell

like that. And it might sound crazy, but

it's just like you need a groove if you

want that to happen. If you want someone

to feel something

like that. Um, and then we had ended up

uh my friend Lety ended up playing

actual bongos on it. And then my drummer

in my band Stanley would uh play on top

of the loops. And it was about um not

removing the loops but kind of marrying

the

>> the sounds

>> the sounds together and not having them

you know you know fight with each other.

I think what he it was three tracks

total. Room track, high hat, dry kick,

dry snare, and tuning the snare

and then I think boosting

wherever the EQ band is like 100 maybe

right here and just getting that snare

like really punchy but a little thick.

That's the

>> Okay. When you are mixing a song like

this, when you're involved with that,

>> are you mixing or you get you have do

you have a mixer? Who who mixed the

record? Manny Maroquin and myself mix

the record. Um, and

>> are you there with Manny when he's doing

it or you go in when he's done with the

track?

>> Not I let Manny I purposely let Manny

live with the song first?

>> Yep.

>> Um, and Manny really makes it sound the

way that it's supposed to sound. He has,

you know, decades and decades of purely

mixing experience and I believe he's

like the best to do it and just has he's

an emotional mixer and that's why

>> what does that mean? Meaning that if

something

like when he mixed Gravity by John

Mayer, it had reverb on the vocal and

he's told this story so I can tell this

story. He uh the the reverb had like a

4se secondond tail on it and

>> which is very long for people.

>> It's very long. It sounds um

it's like it's echoey. Yeah. Um, but he

took it all off completely and it was

bone dry. It was and it made it feel

like John was not screaming in your

face, but it was just and I'm sure John

Mayer could tell it better, but it's

just the vocal felt so intimate and

upfront and because of that decision.

Yeah.

>> I believe that's why the record sounds

how it sounds. Um, so that's an

emotional choice. Um, and when I told

him that I wanted it to still feel

dynamic but slammed like a Johnny hates

jazz record, remember the you're giving

me [music]

giving me nothing but shattered dreams

if you right from the jump on that

record

drums [music] in your face synths. We're

in 1989. It's all right up front. I

wanted it to feel like that and uh just

a little warmer.

>> Um, let let me play another song. Let's

I'm going I'll play the the second track

here. Sure.

>> Beat yourself up yourself, man.

>> Big snare.

>> Since you were a boy, you took the

weight of the world [music] and held on

to it till you fell to the ground.

[music]

>> Nice for musicians. This is fun to play

along to.

So she [music] would never feel the way

you do now. I know it gets hard

and it always seems to go

[music and singing] on.

But it's okay. Please don't beat

yourself up. [music] Oh, whatever you

do, cuz it doesn't do just you. [music]

Please don't beat yourself up. Oh, you

made some mistakes.

>> [music]

>> You know it.

[music]

>> It's like I practice restraint in the

like you know

>> like that's for the live but like um I

mean I could do that but

>> Okay. So why would you not do that?

>> Put like a sharp nine chord like that in

there.

>> I would I would I would have done it in

the third chorus but it just didn't

>> Okay. Why there? And

>> because you could just get away with it

there.

>> It just my spirit didn't need it there.

[laughter] It just like that's the best

way I can describe it. It just if I I'll

never do something for the sake of doing

it. It has to emotionally feel right.

I'm not I'm never going to get in front

of the board and be like, "Well, I'm a

jazz pianist and I need to have as many

jazz chords as possible. I'd rather

sneak them in and still have it read

jazz for all the Berkeley Cats, but for

my wife, it reads like a pop song."

>> You talked about the snare. Mhm.

>> Why is the snare such an important thing

in songs?

>> Cuz it's the thing that hits you in the

face. If the kick makes you move your

It's It's dancing. Kick. Snare. Kick

makes you do this. Snare makes you go

back.

I'm not a dancer as you could probably

imagine, but it's just the like Give it

to Me Baby by Rick James is not a song

without that crispy kick.

That's the [music] best kick ever. It's

so It's played so perfectly. Um, but

there are like if you listen to uh uh

Brick by Ben Folds 5.

[music] Great song.

There's the That That to me is the hook,

too. That's so smart what you said

before. If you put the Rick James kick

in there, that sounds That's going to

sound terrible, right? What sounded

better is like the

like the Roffus rain white kind of like

like brushy kit that almost doesn't even

like read his drums. It's because it's

just about Ben's voice. So 6 a.m.

[music]

>> Oh my god, that song is so good. I love

music. I uh you know what I mean? like

you like it just that snare works

there.

>> Okay. So, when you're working on a tune

like this, uh is the drum groove there

at the beginning and then uh well, you

might have the song and then you find

the groove that goes with it.

>> Uh

>> or do you swap out the snare until you

find something right?

>> No, we knew that we wanted to have a big

obnoxious snare like kind of a

>> It's like an 80s snare or something.

>> Yeah, like a I want to dance with

somebody. Max Martin was the one who

told me to make the snare louder. I

played this uh song for him in his early

stages in Sweden. He was like, "It's got

to be even louder." Like, "What have you

done for me lately?" Janet Jackson, give

me jam. Terry Lewis. Listen to that.

That thing is

>> that even for the 80s, that's that was

like in super super loud.

>> Super loud.

>> Um you never be never be afraid of a

loud a loud snare. That's my uh that's

my motto.

>> Okay. So, is this is the drum groove is

that one of the most important things in

the production beyond the melody and the

and the lyrics and things like that?

>> Yes. Just because of my hip-hop

background and that's what I started in

production world. Um, I just I the 808

whatever if it calls for it. It's like

really that's a really that can make or

break a song. I remember making a song

uh called Slow Motion for Trey Songs

back in 2015 and the kick wasn't right

and then Manny fixed the kick and made

it wider somehow but like even punchier

and he still won't tell me how he did it

but that's fine.

>> Okay. So, when Manny's mixing a song,

>> do you send him notes? Do you go in, do

you hang with him and listen and you

say, "I like this. Can we do this?"

>> Yeah. after he has his time with uh the

song privately, then I come then I can

come in after he's uh done his thing cuz

uh I mean I wouldn't want anyone, you

know, over my shoulder while I'm, you

know, while the song is, you know, being

written. So I he I I leave him like a

weekend.

>> Okay. What's the ultimate listening

space? just do you have to take it out

and listen to it in a bunch of places or

>> I I listen to it on my my uh I have

speakers like this the ATC's in my in my

studio which I really trust. I love the

ATC's.

>> Um and then I just the I think the new

age orone is just sticking the phone up

to your ear.

>> Yeah.

>> I I remember at Berkeley they used to

you know those little orones they were

kind of meant for like the the simulate

what it sounded like on the radio like

the boom box or something. I believe

that's just the uh

>> somebody said to me ear I did an

interview earlier today and somebody's

like this is the new NS10. So I was like

you know now when you put the phone up

do you do you put it if you put it in

landscape mode it plays it in stereo.

Yeah, sometimes I I I'll sometimes just

kind of put it um I don't want to damage

my ear, so I never slam it up against my

ear, but phone like right in the middle

and then it kind of gives you a little

>> stereo pitcher almost, but that's how

people are listening to it. I've

listened to my music on broken speakers

before, um my friends cars, uh just uh I

don't know. I just I but I think the

phone is great. I have the uh the

NS-10s, too, but I I rarely use them.

>> What do you like about these ATC

monitors that we're listening through

here?

>> They're honest, but they have a little

fun to them. They have like a not

uh not too much color. Oh, and and you

can crank them, too, as I talk about not

damaging my ears.

>> You can crank them pretty loud. I like

Focal speakers, too. You know, my

favorite favorite speaker was the KRK um

Rocket while Foccal was making them in

like the early 2000s KRK. I'm sure

there's some on reverb. Those are really

good, too.

>> They just went up in price.

>> Yeah, absolutely. Well, I don't know

because of me, but like they they

they're really good. They're genuinely

great speakers, but I just think I I

never want my monitor to be too honest

because I like to have fun. Yeah,

>> those are honest enough and they have a

little color in them that just gives me

some confidence.

>> Okay. And how loud do you have to be

able to crank it? Come on. You'll listen

loud.

>> Not I I'll listen

pretty damn loud.

>> Yeah.

>> But not while the song is being written.

>> Yeah. But a afterwards you want to make

sure it holds together at a loud volume

too.

>> Yeah, absolutely. But like when I like

when I say I don't listen to it loud

right away, even when I'm excited about

the song, like when I made Boy,

[music] which is my one of my favorite

songs I ever made,

>> it's like a rainbow of chords. Even when

I was excited about that, I

self-restraint. I never cranked it

because I wanted to hear I wanted to

make sure that the synth was sitting

right. I wanted to make sure that my

vocals weren't too tuned. I wanted to

make because I I think blasting

something while a song is being written

is kind of an insecurity thing. That's

just my opinion.

It's re when I'm showing music to

friends, I'll blast it, but it's by

myself. I just kind of keep it quiet.

>> Do you have any particular friends that

you kind of want to see what their

reaction to a song is?

>> Um, definitely my parents.

>> Okay.

>> Um, who are my friends? Um, I like my

sister manages me. I like playing music

for my sister and my brother. Um, and

>> what if they don't like something?

>> Oh, they let me know.

I know when Michaela doesn't like

something, when she doesn't respond.

>> Okay.

>> Yeah. She was like, "Oh, it's cool."

>> Like I remember I played her changes,

she really like changes. So that made me

happy. Um, and when my dad doesn't like

something, he goes like this.

Like, okay. Can't we can't let that

happen.

>> You have a song here that has Kenny G on

it.

>> Yes, that's track three, right? That's

track Cry featuring Kenny G. [music]

[music]

>> I promise I'm not trying to scare you.

[music]

I know this life can be a lot and you'll

get caught up in your thoughts like my

father,

but he told me

whatever you come across, you better

[music] get up.

>> Just holding it.

>> And through the es and flows, life is a

push and pull [music]

for a tree to grow. Sometimes it just

has to wait. It's nothing [music]

feeling. You know, everybody cries

[music] cry.

It doesn't matter. You don't have to.

Keep it all inside.

>> Okay. So, Charlie, you have a bunch of

those cords in there that have those

little crunchy things in them, right?

that the most notable one being the Juno

that you just hold it. [music]

>> Yeah.

[music]

>> To me that's there's a difference and

like

[music]

cuz it gets weird. It gets it's low. It

gets clustery like and like too much

like too muddy

>> in the chorus. So play the changes in

the chorus.

[music]

>> Yeah. Beautiful.

[music]

Okay. So, without this dissonance, those

little dissonances, playing those chords

more straight,

>> you lose all of the

>> You lose every I mean, to me, it loses

everything.

>> I think it loses everything.

>> Yeah, it loses everything.

>> That's chords are the I'll stand by

this. Chords are the most important

thing.

>> Yes.

>> In music.

>> Yes.

>> Lyrics, too. But there's a reason why

Dylan's lyrics stand out. Why Neil

Young's lyrics stand out. Like like old

man, take a look at Milo. [music]

Uh

>> there's a He sneaks that little G in

there.

>> Yeah.

[music]

[singing]

>> It's a Bill Evans [music] chord.

>> Yeah.

>> Look at my life. I'm alive. What do you

like better? old man, look at me. Now it

sounds like a show tune. [music] There's

nothing wrong with that, but like

>> man, it's like introspective when you

add this little G in there for [music]

some reason. And why? I don't know. It's

just it's just human feeling. We all

want to be emotionally understood. And

maybe that's that G is what made [music]

him feel understood.

That sounds like Country Road by James

Taylor

>> because it [music] is.

>> That is what it is. But um yeah, that's

a Cry featuring Kenny G and oh my god,

he plays the best solo ever.

>> Okay. What made you think about getting

Kenny G on it?

>> Cuz it's fun and music can have uh it

wasn't meant to be like a I think the

thing with Kenny G sometimes uh post

>> [music]

>> when he did the Christmas stuff and like

you know [music]

like all the Titanic stuff it's kind of

like on the nose like boys club like

haha funny it's Kenny G. Kenny G is a

phenomenal musician and he is so precise

in his diction and and and and his

intention and laying down a solo and uh

>> I just thought the song felt

appropriately on the nose but actually

musically what it needed. It didn't I

already did a piano solo on changes. I'm

not going to on track three do yet

another again another piano solo. It's

just uh and it's kind of shocking too.

So he kind of comes in and just whales

in. It's just soaring and

it does all the things that it's

supposed to do.

>> Let me ask you something here.

[music]

>> Ah, I love this one.

[music]

>> This is my fun song.

>> Hey, wait, just talk about this. You

have uh Michael McDonald, Kenny Log,

>> and Kenny Loggins on uh Love in Exile,

which is the title that Kenny came up

with. and found out why as we were as we

[laughter] he just said we're writing a

song called Love in Exile. I'm like

in England [singing and music]

sounds like a title of a book. Um and uh

it's the it was very simple. The guys

came over um and I was playing something

good but it wasn't killing us. Um again

why I shouldn't start a song with just

the piano. I was I was playing uh

something

[music]

something nice but like you can't really

lock in emotionally over chords like

that sometimes when uh when there's the

inception of the song and Kenny came

over and kind of medium whispered in my

ear I think you should let Mike play the

keyboard and and

he said what change

I [singing] thought you were there. O

was like when I [music] heard the

same so strange I'll admit

[music and singing] something

[music]

>> and I was like oh like and so I'm I

find myself

>> Did you know those guys before that?

>> No I didn't. I would just imitate them.

I I didn't know them.

>> That was a good Michael McDonald there.

Good. Both both those guys.

>> Yeah, you spend enough time with them,

you start to anybody you spend enough

time with, you start to, you know, know

their do impressions of their uh

>> Was it strange when you heard Michael

McDonald speaking voice? Because when I

I interviewed him and

>> and I'd heard him speak before, but it's

like you talked to him at first and then

you you just are looking at it's like

that's the same guy that

>> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I I kind of

understood where his voice came from and

his speaking voice. He was very reserved

and uh he came 20 minutes early and he

was like, "Am I

>> am I He had like the the air in his

voice. Am I too too early?" I'm like,

"No, let's let's let's chat. How did

like how's it going?" And then Kenny

came over and you can kind of I can kind

of identify everyone's singing voice in

their speaking voice. Um it was just a

pleasure to be around those guys. such a

you can't make a slightly yacht rock

inspired album and not put the guys who

invented it on the album.

>> What What does yacht rock mean to

people? I mean I I I people use that

term all the time. I've interviewed a

lot of the guys. I don't hate to use

that term, but yacht rock people.

>> Sure. Yacht rock people.

>> I mean Christopher Cross. Yeah. Um

>> Oh my god. I mean the [music]

that those those dissonant [music]

chords make you feel like you're

>> right

>> on the ocean

>> like uh this uh

>> that's actually a weird the the fact

that that's an open tuning on guitar and

he came up with it on guitar. It's it's

a very pianistic kind of thing.

>> It is

>> which I didn't realize that he did. I

had never figured it out on the guitar.

I mean, I I knew what the notes were and

stuff, but

>> when he was at my studio and he played

it and I thought there's not another

guitar song that's like that that really

is very specific and it really sounds

like it was written on the piano.

>> It does. I mean, there are certainly

like at any time Brian Mcnite.

[music]

Uh

there's tons of PE like that's like a

piano thing to do because all the notes

are right next to each other. But did he

explain why how he wrote that like on

the guitar?

>> He just, you know, that's just something

he came up with. He had an open tuning.

>> Wow.

>> And um

>> it's actually kind of awkward to play on

the guitar.

>> Yeah. Yeah, that's the funny thing is

that it's not even like something that

lays real easily on the guitar, but easy

for him to play. It's kind of a thing

that fits under his fingers.

>> Christopher is a very good guitar

player.

>> Wow. I mean, it sounds like he is

literally. It's I I would have assumed

that that was written on the keyboard.

>> So, I did I interviewed Michael Omardian

who produced that record and Michaelian

plays on all the Steely Dan record. A

lot of the Steely Dan records. He played

on the song Asia and he played on Ricky

Don't Lose That Number. [music]

>> That's him. that.

>> Yeah.

>> Oh my

interview going to be like 3 hours long

cuz I just get so excited by

>> there's there's that one

thing that happens in there.

[singing]

[music]

>> That's not right. But

[music]

>> Oh my god, that's a jazz album.

I dancing through

I want to [music] you

>> uh

>> oh my god that's unbelievable

>> now when they did that. So I interviewed

him and Larry Carl all the people that

played the basic tracks of that. That's

Larry Carlton on the guitar, Michael on

the keyboard, Chuck Rainey on the bass

and Steve Gaton on the drums. So, I

interviewed all four of those guys

separately, but they are on the song

Asia. They all have a different story

about how the song went down.

>> I'm going to watch this video.

>> They did, but Michael and Martian said

that they did two takes of the song

because the with the drum solo in there,

they started laughing when Steve Gad

I'm going,

[laughter] you know, cuz he's right

here. And I'm watching his arms just

flying all over the place. And Carlton

is just like like this. And we're just

like, "What the heck?" [music]

>> That I mean, that was nuts.

>> Yeah. I also interviewed um the guy that

engineered it, too.

>> Oh my god.

>> Yeah. So, biggest job ever.

>> Yeah. But anyways, but they all had a

different stories about that.

>> Mhm.

>> Um

>> and they probably have a whole different

idea of like what the I mean, they

participated in the yacht rock sound,

too. Technically,

>> all those guys did.

>> Yeah. To answer your question before, I

I I think the yacht I think it's rock

music with jazz chords.

>> I just think

>> that's pretty plain and simple.

>> Yeah.

>> U

make a wish. [music]

>> Make a wish. [singing]

It's like a low down like bos scags.

[music]

That's a kind of like a rockish beat.

That's certainly a, you know, the kit

sounds like a it could be that. Um, not

me going through all my yacht rock

sounds in my head, but like it it it

seems to be there. There always seems to

be

they got caribou.

[music] What's he saying? Caribbean

queen. I thought he said caribou quip. I

don't know what that

breezen George Benson

>> George Benson interviewed George too.

>> He told so he [music] told me that that

song I think it's Bobby Wilmarmac tune

and he said um

>> his producer Tony Luma was like I think

we should do Breeze and George's like I

don't know about that and then George

came up I think with the intro of it and

everything and then they were like oh

that's [music] good

>> and um

>> and then George loves playing that.

Yeah, I mean that's a I would be excited

hearing that intro.

>> Now, now is that is George Benson yacht

rock though? No,

>> I don't think so. I think it preceded

it, though. I think there's a reason

>> why

>> a lot of the yacht rock uh um well, I

guess when did that record come out? 19

>> 76

>> 76

>> that's pretty much right in the right

right era. Although people the things

that people say are yacht rock are a

slightly after that like 78 through the

you know

>> what's the pina colada song

>> like I don't even that people consider

that to be a yacht rock song but that's

like so simple

>> that is so simple so wait what was your

thing uh jazz c um

>> rock songs

>> rock songs with jazz chords

>> with you know chords

>> with a certain percentage of jazz chords

>> yeah that like you know Bill Evans would

play. Uh I is Is Pretzel Logic a yacht

rock album?

>> Sort of. Kind of. It feels more like a

rock album to me, but like when you

listen to any major dude, the the

precourse or the chorus [singing] is at

your door. [music]

Any major dude [music] can tell you, but

when you listen to FM, the

that was that's always played on the

yacht rock channels way more than any

major.

>> Okay. So, so I said to Michael Marty, he

plays on Ricky Don't Lose That Number.

He plays the piano part on there.

>> Mhm.

>> And that tune, a lot of the Steely Dance

stuff, they use all these add nine

chords there. It almost has like um

>> almost like country music or like him.

>> Absolutely. Absolutely.

>> I think it it sounds and he's like,

"Yes, you're right." Because they hadn't

start started using all those things

that they use on the Asia record. Mhm.

>> They use some of them like on Royal Scam

on some of the tunes, but they even

those songs like Kid Charlemagne, they

don't have

>> they don't have those kind of, you know,

>> F major 9 to to the E, you know, the E

mute chord, you know, the

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

>> D G C over over E.

>> Who's that?

>> That the American song.

>> America. Yeah. It starts that's the

guitar part starts it.

>> That is that that that's that to me

leans more folk than

>> that's folk

>> than yacht rocky but it's played on

yacht rock channel.

>> That's weird that it's only because it's

from that time period.

>> Mhm.

>> Okay. So what makes a song like this?

[music]

[singing]

>> We don't anymore. What was all of it

for?

>> [singing and music]

>> We don't talk anymore.

>> Really simple.

>> You found the one you've been looking

[music]

for. I wish I would have known that

wasn't me. Cuz even after all this time,

[music] I still wonder why I can't move

on just the way you did so easily.

[music]

Don't want to know what kind of dress

you wearing [music] tonight. If he's

holding on to you so tight the way I did

before,

I shouldn't [music] know your love is a

game. Now I can't get you out of my

brain. Oh, it's such a shame.

[music and singing]

We don't talk anymore.

We don't talk anymore.

>> What is What makes this song have

billions of of plays, Charlie?

>> I mean, it comes from a human place that

lyrically if you

>> It's the lyric, right? It's the well it

it comes from it's derived from a very

human place. The way the way I wrote

that song was talking to my friend Miles

and he is now married to his wife Mina.

But at the time they were dating and it

wasn't going well. He was you know he

was being a doofus and they broke up and

I asked do you talk to Mina anymore? He

said oh we don't talk anymore. And it's

a kind of like a court gesture in a

court gesture way because he's all

crying at the wheel on Santa Monica

Boulevard and I'm like trying to like

you know cheer him up like we don't

>> like like a melody d don't cry da da da

da da da but then he was like wait

that's actually if you [music] like stop

being goofya

um and then that kick just like it's is

dable. It like hits you in the face.

It's a very dry record in that in

>> It's very dry

>> in that in the little like we used to

do. There's a little noise.

If you go to the bridge where

>> I don't think I've told people this. So,

if you go to the bridge and it's like an

instrumental bridge

and there's a bunch of gated reverb and

delays on it and everything

that [singing]

the reverb that tails off after that I

grabbed it

and then if you play it then

[music]

And then that became a motif, a sound

motif in the entire song,

>> Charlie, when you do a breakdown uh

section like this.

>> Mhm.

>> How important are arrangement things

like that? And

>> they're everything.

>> And what about all the little background

things that you're singing there?

>> They're everything.

>> They're everything. Everything. Is

everything everything then?

>> Everything. Everything. Everything is

everything.

>> Everything adds up, right? It's a

mosaic.

>> You want to add things to your record

where if you took them out, there is no

record.

>> How do you know when you have too much

to feel it in your spirit? We don't talk

anymore. Originally had a beat like a

like a on one and the three

[music]

and then it felt so much better when it

was just like four on the floor. That

subtle change made the whole

>> A big change actually.

>> Yeah. And if you take out all my little

background vocals, I call them

background vocals, invisible background

vocals, then you just have a lead.

But if you remember, Oops, I Did It

Again by Britney Spears. If you listen

to that chorus, it's not just her

singing. There's a whole choir that um

Max and everyone had frequently used on

like Selene Dion records, but they lift

the lead vocal. If you take it out, it

just feels not it's it's fine, but it's

so much better when there's just like a

subtle lift of the lead.

>> Are you adding those background things

in um kind of one at a time that you

have little ideas and things and you be

like, "Let me do this here." Uh do you

do you kind of vibe along with it and

say, "You know what? It'd be cool if I

had a part that went like this there."

kind of like you do on your Tik Toks.

>> That's exactly what I do, right? And you

know, the t the Tik Toks are kind of a

glimpse into how I actually work. It's

just kind of a go with the flow, see

what's needed, subtract if it's not

needed.

>> How long does it take to to write a song

like this?

>> The song came together uh let's see,

October 2015

and finished it December 2015. I

remember because it was the night of the

Soul Train Awards on BET and it's the

first time I saw Kenny Edmonds aka

Babyface perform Whip Appeal. Um I'll

never forget that. That was right when I

finished it. Oh, and I was coming off a

really gnarly high off of these THC

cocoa beans.

>> Okay,

>> that was uh I don't do those anymore.

But uh I was like, "Thank God I got this

record done." But every every detail

matters. Every every little every little

thing. But I almost like when the sounds

are ambiguous like you can't really

identify if you press play on the very

very beginning of the record and you

hear that

that's nor a piano a synth a guitar

that's what is that and then you listen

to the bridge and if you zoom in you'll

know that I took the tail end of that

little line and just side chained it and

that's it.

>> What does sidechaining for people that

don't know what that means?

>> Basically volume it's just automated

volume.

That's like a curve like this.

And then more of like a if you a line

and then up is

which is like the you hear it in dance

songs all the time like you know levels

Avichi the piano in levels by Avichi

without the side chain

>> but with the side chain

like it's hard

>> it's hard to do side chain on this piano

on any piano

>> on any piano. Yeah. But it's just volume

essentially

>> and uh and side chaining people use to

so they don't interfere with the with

the beat basically.

>> Mhm. Makes room for the um

I think I talked about this once but I'm

I'm learning about everything every day.

I think uh um you know you hear it in

One More Time by Da Punk. It just makes

room for the 32 hertz subkick. It makes

it so it but it but it creates a sound

illusion that it's all playing at the

same time, but it's actually kick sound.

Kick sound, but it's going by at 120

BPMs that it just kind of just feels

like it's all one contained thing.

>> Where does it get down too low to where

it interferes with a with a groove? What

what frequencies?

>> Well, it it depends on what instrument.

Like if it's the bass and the drum.

Yeah.

>> Or something.

>> Um

>> is there something where you feel like

Yeah. wins get down to anything below 30

hertz needs to be

>> I don't think it if it feels good it

feels good. If it doesn't feel good then

obviously it's going to seem weird. I

remember working with one of the first

uh record producers I worked with was DJ

Mustard back in 2014. I signed my deal

and then I got was like really excited.

They put me with mustard and we were

making something for an artist and the

808s were not dietonic at all to what I

think was an E minor and it was a

completely like that that seems to be

like the nice boom 808.

>> Yeah.

>> But like of course that sounds terrible

there. But like you

>> I like the sound of it. [laughter]

>> But like if it if it were the 808 it

would be

>> [snorts]

>> And I was like, "Let's let's tune that

to

and we looked at each other and and he

looked at me and he was like, it doesn't

feel as good. Let's do it my way." And

we ended up doing it his way.

>> Tell me about how you go in in 2026. How

do you promote your new record?

>> Oh, I I have I I do what I want now.

There's no rules now.

>> They they said, "Do you want to come

here?" And I was like, "Absolutely, I

want to come here." But but how do you

do like what is a strategy? Like how do

records get broken now? I mean, how do

>> there's certainly no there's no more

button you can just push because there's

no more gatekeepers anymore. The

audience decides if it's going to be a

song that resonates with millions of

people or hundreds and thousands of

people.

>> Is that good or bad?

>> I think it's great. I love it. It it

makes us all work a lot harder. And I

would rather have a song that did pretty

good and 10,000 people are showing up to

Madison Square Garden versus having a

number one song and everyone knows the

song, but people might not be familiar

with who's singing it. I've had that

happen before.

>> Mhm. That people like didn't know that

was you. No, I mean I'm on I'm about to

go on my bestselling tour that I've ever

gone on and we don't have a number one

song yet. Maybe we will, but that's not

like needed. It's it's a connection with

your your core fan base now. Like I I I

care more about that. Um, of course,

who's going to want to hit? We'll have

those. I've I've had plenty of those. I

want to make I want I set out to make

this album to learn more about myself

and have my fans know more about me

because I've never really let them in to

this extent before.

>> Well, I'm going to tell the joke here

that I It's not a joke. It's the truth

that that when I told my kids I was

interviewing you, they're like,

"Finally, you've interview you're

interviewing someone famous."

>> That's ridiculous. [laughter] That is

you've interviewed

legends.

>> I was like, "What?" They're like, "Yeah,

famous to us. We don't know any of those

other people."

>> Oh my god. I mean, they do, but they're

just they're joking, but they're, you

know,

>> but if those people were having dinner

with you, they I find I think they would

find them pretty fascinating.

>> Oh, yeah. Okay. Well, let me play one

other thing here, Charlie.

>> Yeah.

>> Okay.

>> I am really enjoying this. This is a

>> Charlie, you're awesome, man.

>> Oh, you're awesome. This is

>> I You're You know, I like that you go

with anything.

>> I go with it because it's just It's not

really even about me. It's just about

the It's about music. It's about chords.

>> It is.

>> Makes me so happy.

>> Turtle [music and singing]

knew that I knew that I knew that I'd

call you up.

[singing]

That's good. It's good, right?

>> Come see the tour. cuz he knew that I

knew that I knew that I'd be at one.

>> I [music] know that dress is coming

perfume regret. You got me thinking

[music] back when you were mine.

And now [music] I'm all upon you. What

you expect? But you're not coming home

with me tonight. [music]

You just want attention. You don't want

my heart. Baby, [music] you just hate

the thought of me with someone new.

Yeah, you just want attention. [music] I

knew from the start. You're just making

sure

you [music]

run around.

>> Same lyrics for the [music] second

verse.

>> Charlie, when the when the reverb stops

right before the hook, you know the

[music and singing]

attention.

>> How important are those things to have

that?

>> And then it goes to the It brings it

right forward

>> for that song. Very important. I wanted

it to be like jarring. Yeah.

>> I wanted it to the the most important

thing for uh uh and why I think that

song resonated with the amount of people

that it resonated with is because you

know the pre chorus before the precourse

even happens. because [music]

I know that dress is regret. So when it

comes it's like I feel like I've heard

it before and it's just the each every

four bars of this song there is

something different happening. First

four bars and then vocals in the guitar

and then next four bars there's like a

another sneaky guitar that you really

can't hear but it does some like a

little different texture or something.

Every four bars there is something

different in that record.

>> There there's a a a puffiness to the

kick that I think really works

>> because I'm literally going under the

>> Is that

>> is that you doing that?

>> Yes. Well, there's there's

>> that's layered with the kick.

>> Layered with the um whatever I made the

kick in battery. Um whatever the kick is

punchy Manny did like clipped it and

made it even dirt griier. Um but under

it is a

So, you're literally making these sounds

and then adding

>> It's funny you said puff. I'm puffing.

>> There's puffing. There's a puffiness to

it. It that little blast to me really um

uh gives it a lot of heft without

without being in your face.

>> If you take it's too short. I But I

didn't want to make a longer kick. Yeah.

I didn't want the kick to be I wanted to

be

So you're making it feel draggier but

not actually extending the sub. You're

adding like 16k of air.

>> Well, Charlie,

you're awesome. I really appreciate you

doing this, man. This is this is

amazing. I like those I like the extra

chords and stuff, too.

>> Come on the tour. You have to actually

come to a show because we do a

>> I will [singing and music] and now I'm

all up on you. But uh what you expect

tonight, [singing]

[music]

they know all all that

>> Amazing. Thank you so much. Thank you.