MINDBLOWING: Michael Heiser, NT Wright, & Tim Mackie Reveal the TRUTH About Biblical Heaven

We have to remember when we get into

this that heaven heaven doesn't have

literal geography. There's no latitude

and longitude. There's no literal levels

or stages as though when you were in one

you could measure their size or their

distance from each other. Okay? So, we

got we have to be careful that we don't

overly literalize the language. If you

were to ask a modern western Christian

[music] what heaven looks like, chances

are you'd get an answer that resembles

the Sunday school cartoonish image of

God's neighborhood, which consists of

mansions in the clouds guarded by a

shiny golden gate [music] that's

surrounded by babies with wings floating

around like butterflies. And this

wouldn't necessarily be their fault.

Most of us have been fed this image of

heaven through movies, TV, and other

media, and even from pastors and

teachers who subscribe to the

anti-supnatural materialistic

interpretation of the Bible, and thus

have failed to recognize what the

biblical authors had in mind when

writing about heaven.

Really, this all comes down to

vocabulary and the words we have at our

disposal to describe what heaven truly

is. Just the fact that our experience is

tied to this physical world limits our

vocabulary to spatial language. And the

[snorts] biblical authors had this same

plight. I want you to hear this concise

clip of Dr. Michael Heiser explaining

how the biblical author's language

surrounding the concept of heaven was

actually attempting to communicate

something much deeper than the surface

level materialistic view of God's divine

dwelling place. Because he also clears

up the idea of the levels of heaven.

Let's check it out.

>> We have to remember when we get into

this that heaven heaven doesn't have

literal geography. There's no latitude

and longitude. There's no literal levels

or stages as though when you were in

one, you could measure their size or

their distance from each other. Okay?

So, we got we have to be careful that we

don't overly literalize the language

when it talks about heaven or these

levels of heaven and so on and so forth.

I mean they're they're all this other

place and they you know they're spoken

of in in these ways to distinguish parts

of them. And again we we we are forced

to use the language of space. We are

forced to use spatial language, the

language of embodiment and physicality

to talk about a spiritual realm that

doesn't actually have those things

because it's not the world of of of our

experience and our embodiment. The only

way we can talk about those other things

is to use the language of our experience

and of our embodiment. This is just

always the way it is uh in scripture and

in our own discussions. So with with

that in mind, the level's language is

trying to communicate that the presence

of God God himself like like where the

presence is in the spiritual world that

that spot as it were and realize we

can't even speak of God in that way

correctly because that makes God a

spatial being. But God is omnipresent.

You see the problem we have of even

using this language, but I'm I'm just

going to try to wade through it because

that's what we have to do. But so the

levels language is trying to communicate

that the presence of God is the holiest

place in the spiritual world. God

occupies

in Paul's language the third level. Some

there are some ancient texts from the

second temple period that have three

levels of heaven. 2 Corinthians 12:2 is,

you know, what the the question is

really deriving from. Other texts have

seven levels. You say, well, why is it

different? You know what? Well, they're

all talking trying to communicate the

same idea that that the highest level,

the seventh level or the third, you

know, level the place where God is at,

that's the holiest spot, the holiest

place. The language tries to parse out

where we are in the spiritual realm,

where other objects are in the spiritual

realm and then where God himself is in

the spiritual realm. And so it has to

use this this level language to do that

again to to make sure that God is given

the preeminent place. He is the

preeminent being on you in this this

plane of reality, the spiritual world.

You know, again, it's just a way of

establishing, to use a Levitical, you

know, way of expressing it, gradations

of holiness. You know, if you think

about the temple, the tabernacle in the

temple, there were the the the the the

more inward you went, the greater the

sanctity. Okay? So that you had you

couldn't have non priests occupy like

the first level of of sacred space. I

mean they could bring a sacrifice up to

the to the to the gate or the door of

the tabernacle and it would be

sacrificed but they couldn't go beyond a

certain point. Then priests could go

there but but you know there was there

was a subset of those priests who could

go into the holy place. And then there's

there's only one priest that could

actually go into the most holy place,

the holy of holies. once a year. This

was this was designed to to teach and to

reinforce the idea that the ground gets

holier, okay, the closer to God that you

are. It's this the these gradations of

holiness. We talked about this in

Leviticus about, you know, what's done

with the blood and and all this kind of

stuff and who can go where. It's the

same idea sort of transferred into the

spiritual realm when you get these

levels of heaven. Um there's a lot of

speculation in second temple period

literature. You get all these heavenly

visions and journeys of individuals like

Enoch and Abraham and Baruk and you know

so on and so forth. There's there's a

number of Old Testament characters that

have these journeys and then and you get

this language you know that as they're

as they're on their trip so to speak to

to see the presence of God, you pass

through certain levels, these heavenly

levels and and it's designed again to

teach the idea that the closer to God

you get, the more sanctified the space

is, the more holy it is. I I personally

think the three-level approach is

probably modeled after the temple. You

have the court, the holy place, and the

holy of holies. You got three levels

there. The seven levels, again, again,

my suspicion is that it has something to

do with the number seven being perceived

or thought about as perfection. Uh and

and you say, well, how do you get seven

and perfection? Well, it's modeled after

the creation week that everything is

created in six days and on the seventh

day God rests in his his temple which is

you know in in in Genesis which is you

know Eden on earth you know that that it

it it completes the activity uh there

this is what what God wanted to do he

did and he did it you know exactly the

way he wanted to do it so you've got

this this perception this this idea this

numerical tag as it were number seven

that speaks of completeness and and in

that sense of perfection. So I I tend to

think that that number is used again to

convey the same idea and I think that

the number three as we're speaking of

levels is really drawn more from um

sacred space on the ground you know

boots on the ground so to speak that we

read about in the Old Testament.

>> So Heiser posits that heaven doesn't

have literal geography or fixed

coordinates. Basically, it's not a

place, but rather a realm, the unseen

realm. And from my point of view, this

is actually the problem or the danger of

the modern westernized image of heaven.

It conflates the imagery of the new

creation or new heaven and new earth as

described in Revelation and completely

transforms the idea of heaven from being

a spiritual realm to a physical place

where believers get to escape the

horrors on earth and float around in the

clouds with Jesus all day.

This escapist view of heaven actually

becomes a hindrance to the furthering of

God's kingdom, a in the armor of

God, and a handicap in the spiritual

warfare we're constantly engaged in as

loyal believers in Christ. I want you to

hear this fascinating sermon from Dr.

Tim Mackey because he further reinforces

the concept of heaven Dr. Mike touched

on and actually expounds on the

conversation between Jesus and the thief

on the cross who Christ told would be

with him in paradise that same day.

Let's check it out. Uh 4 weeks ago, this

day I was on the north side of Mount

Hood. Y'all have y'all seen the big

volcano on the eastern horizon here?

Yeah. It's not dormant, first of all.

[laughter]

Second of all, did you It's like a

smoking sulfur pit up on the top. Like

it's you know, so it's just an hour and

a half away. Um but uh the the north

side of Mount Hood is um one of the most

amazing areas in the Cascades in my

humble opinion. Um it's the most remote.

There's no direct roads that go to it.

And um I set out a month ago uh actually

yesterday, Thursday, a month ago um for

a 3day uh solitude and prayer time up on

the northern flank of Mount Hood. I've

never done anything like that before,

but like I said, this is a season of

trying new things in my life. Um, and I

love to trail run and to backpack and to

hike. And so I thought, what if I just

was to do that with Jesus for three days

in one of my favorite places in the

Cascades? Um, one of the reasons that I

love running and and hiking is because

um I actually really like the experience

that's called the Runner's High. Do you

guys know of this? It's it's great.

So when you push your body in exercise,

your body releases all of these like

natural chemicals into your body and you

feel great. And in my experience, not

only do I feel good, but my thinking

gets crystal clear. And so what I often

do is save up puzzles or ideas that I'm

working on uh for projects and I'll save

them for a run or for a long a long

hike. And so I was so excited because I

was like three days, you know, like

stalking the list of my mental puzzles

that I was going to be working on in

Bible and theology or whatever. And so,

um, I hit the trail at the Vista Ridge

trail head and I had about 3 miles to

go, uh, up a lot of elevation. And so I

just like look down, start breathing,

go. And I was having a great time um,

looking down. [laughter]

And occasionally I'd look up and it's

like there's the volcano right there. Um

and uh I got about 3/4 of the way to my

first trail fork in the road. And I kid

you not, my destination to look for

campsites for that first night was

called a place called Eden Park. And

you'll understand why that's ironic and

or meaningful uh in a minute. So, uh, I

was on my way to that fork and all of a

sudden I heard rustling in the bushes

and there's something in the bushes

right there and it's not running away.

And that's not a good thing when you're

in the back country. Uh, cuz if it runs

away, it means it can't eat you, right?

Um, but if it doesn't run away, it might

might be one of those things. And so, I

was kind of like really startled. This

all took place in like 2 seconds. And

so, I was really startled. And then all

of a sudden, I realized, no, that's a

person. Oh, that's a woman. and she's

crouching in the bushes. And the next

thing that I thought was like she's

going to the bathroom and I just like

came upon her. And you should know one

of actually the wonderful things about

backpacking is being able to relieve

yourself wherever you want

um and have stunning views while you do

so. And so I was like, "Okay, well I

I've clearly I've come across a woman

going to the bathroom and I'm just going

to like focus to keep going by." And

then she stands up and she wasn't going

to the bathroom. Her mouth was full and

she put out her arms like this and she

just said, "Look at these huckleberries.

They're everywhere."

[laughter]

And I looked around and I was surrounded

by the thickest, most dense huckleberry

bushes that I've ever ever seen. And

they were loaded with the fattest

purplest huckleberries that I've ever

seen. And not just so you'll believe me,

I have a picture here cuz you really It

was like a you pick blueberry farm

situation. You guys know what I'm

talking about. And so I'm kind of like

I'm having this and so she starts

talking about, you know, cuz she's like

gathering them into a bag. And so I look

down the trail and as far as I can see

down, two miles down, all the way up I

have been walking through huckleberries.

And then I look up the trail and as far

as I can see another mile up to the

turn, it's just all huckleberries.

And so I did the only reasonable thing

that you would do, which is to step

aside and start shoveling huckleberries

into my mouth. And um this was with the

whole three days. There's something

about this certain stretch of elevation

on the mountain, the time of year,

whatever. I mean, a million factors that

go into that. Um, and I was able to

enjoy huckleberries at every snack. Uh,

at every meal, especially with

breakfast. It turns out that

huckleberries keep you very regular,

which is great on the trail also.

[laughter]

Um, and it was this very powerful

experience where um, I just got to enjoy

this free food, free, wild, delicious

food that was just there for uh, the

whole of my three days. The

huckleberries uh, followed me around.

So, you know, this was in my first

couple hours. And so, I had three days

to kind of ponder the meaning of that

experience. And as I did, I really felt

like the spirit was inviting me to see

that as a condensed version of the last

year and a half in my life.

Um,

like I said, I'm a Bible nerd uh by

profession. Um, and I have had the the

privilege of developing a really

developed toolkit for how to hear what

God is saying to people through the

scriptures. And it's been the the most

wonderful privilege to be able to spend

my years in school doing that and now

like the hours of my days studying and

writing and teaching and thinking. Um,

but it did occur to me that I have

mostly invested in one part of my body

and mind's way of engaging my faith and

learning how to hear what God is saying

to his people. And that is through texts

and through words and through ideas and

through my mind. And that's obviously

not a bad thing. Um but it became clear

to me that there was a whole realm of

experience, whole body experience that

is available in the journey of following

Jesus that I just really don't know very

much about.

And this season of spiritual renewal in

the last year and a half of my life has

been almost exactly like what happened

to me on the trail. Um which is I have

been shaped by a set of habits. uh a set

of habits that primarily I engaged in

texts and meditated and reading on those

texts as a way to hear from God. And

then all of a sudden uh I kind of not

excuse me not all of a sudden um over

the last few years I began to really

wonder um is this just a set of ideas?

Um is there like anything more to this?

And um I'm not sure probably it was like

the COVID period of isolation. It might

also be that I'm in my middle 40s, you

know, and so but for one reason or

another, I just really uh began to

become dissatisfied and sad about this

feeling of absence of the presence of

God in my life and not knowing what to

do. And so uh I started seeing a

spiritual director and that was really

great. And my spiritual director invited

me to do something very simple, which is

to start beginning every day with a

period of silence, a long period of

silence, and just uh holding my hands

open and asking God to speak to me, the

whole of me in some way that I could

feel or hear or understand that's

outside my normal way of engaging with

God. And you want to know what happened?

nothing happened [laughter]

like for a very long time nothing

happened. Um but I did start uh praying

with my kids. I have two little boys and

you know they have all kinds of puzzles

and challenges and confusions and so I

begin to pray with them about like stuff

happening with them at school with their

friends or on the playground or some kid

doesn't like them or some kid you know

start making fun of them. And so, um, I

started praying with my kids about these

situations in their lives. And I don't

have time to tell you all the stories,

but some like really remarkable cool

things happened that like really felt

like answers to those prayers. And I was

really silly because I felt so shocked,

so shocked that that there that this was

happening. And I had I realized I had a

choice to make. you know, I could

rationalize this away and wow, the

world's kind of a strange place. When

you pray, you know, sometimes things

kind of work out the way you hope they

would. Um or I could choose um to trust

that this was the answer to my silent

prayer every morning, that God was

beginning to address me through the

medium of my relationships

and my life, not just my mind.

And so that um began a whole journey um

that essentially is what the huckleberry

experience was like. Um God began to

bring uh a number of people into my

life. Some of them were very old

friendships um like my friend Gerald uh

or my friend Buddy. Some of you if

you're a part of Bridgetown, you know

Buddy. Um some new friendships were

brought into my life. Um Tyler became uh

quickly a good friend when he moved to

town. And these were people in my life

who like that woman just had full

mouths, purple stained teeth,

telling me the huckleberries are

everywhere.

And um I feel like I I'm really

beginning to see and to taste the

huckleberries. And it is God's gift to

me and I'm really grateful for that.

There's more to that story that I could

share um but I don't have time.

Another thing that happened in the

course of that experience was uh I began

to

see and understand and experience themes

in the Bible that I knew about, but

somehow beginning to have experiences of

the presence of God in my life in really

powerful ways just transformed how uh

not just how I understood, but what

these themes meant to me. And so that's

what I would like to um move to now is

remember I'm a Bible nerd.

[clears throat] Uh but hopefully this

will all tie tie together um at the end.

What I would like to do uh is explore a

whole set of themes that has become

crystal clear to me about how in the

biblical story,

prayer and the presence of God and the

garden of Eden and mountaintops and

heaven and the temple and the

relationship between heaven and earth

are all really about one thing. How you

guys doing?

I'd like to start by meditating on a

well-known moment um in Luke's account

of Jesus's execution. It's in chapter

23. You'll see it up here. Um it's the

moment where uh the thief or the

criminal says to Jesus, "Jesus, would

you remember me when you come into your

kingdom?"

And Jesus answers him with famous words.

Truly I tell you, today you will be with

me in

paradise.

Now, if you're like me, pro probably um

you have

without knowing it as you read Jesus's

phrase there, inserted something like

the word heaven in the place of

paradise. You're not entirely wrong in

doing that. But it's important to notice

that what Jesus doesn't say is today you

will be with me in heaven. What he says

is today you'll be with me in paradise.

So here's another interesting thing

about that word is that the English word

paradise is rendering the Greek word

Luke wrote his account in Greek the

Greek word paradesos.

Right? So we actually our English word

paradise is not even a translation of

paradise. It's just spelling in English

letters what the Greek word is. And

what's interesting about that Greek word

is it's the Greek word for garden.

Um, and about 200 years before Jesus,

there were a bunch of really, really

smart Jewish scholars who were

bilingual. They knew Greek and they knew

Hebrew and Aramaic, so I guess

triilingual. And they rendered the whole

of the Hebrew Bible into Greek. And

every time they came across the word

garden in Old Testament, they used the

word paradesos to render it. The Hebrew

word is gone. These words all mean

garden.

So what Jesus is saying to this criminal

as they're like dying is,

I'll see you in the garden later today.

Now, if you're a Jewish man and you've

been raised on the Hebrew Bible and

going to synagogue and you're like as

much of like a Bible nerd as Jesus is,

he was a lot more than that, but that

was one thing he for sure was was a

Bible nerd, too. Uh though he didn't

have the mug. Um I'm sure there's only

one garden that he's talking about. Are

you with me?

>> There's only one. Like when you say

garden and you're Jesus in the setting

that he is, what you mean is the Garden

of Eden.

So what on earth would it mean for Jesus

to say to somebody as he's dying to

someone else who's dying, I will meet

you in the Garden of Eden later today?

What could that possibly mean? Because

the reason why there's only one garden

that Jesus could be referring to is

because it's like the foundation of the

biblical story. It's like found on pages

one and two of the beginning of the

Hebrew Bible. And if you turn to Genesis

2, you don't have to. You'll see it up

here on the screen. Like here's like the

first account of the planting and the

growing of the Garden of Eden. It's in

Genesis chapter 2. And the scene begins

with a desolate wasteland. And then God

provides this stream of water popping up

out of the ground that creates mud. And

out of that mud, two things happen. One

is God plants a garden where trees are

growing everywhere. And then also

there's mud. So God forms the human and

breathes life into the human. So the

garden is a place right there in Genesis

chapter 2, a garden in the east.

Now, um, regardless of how you interpret

these, uh, narratives about Genesis, um,

and you know, Christians love to debate

these chapters, don't they? Um, what

everybody agrees on is that this is a

story that is set in the past. Are you

with me?

>> It's at the beginning, right? It's in

the book called the beginning. It's in

the past. So, the Garden of Eden, which

is the only garden Jesus could be

referring to, is in the book of Genesis

in the past. But Jesus seems to imagine

that it's the kind of place where you

can meet up with somebody later this

afternoon when we're both dead.

Are you with me?

Yes. So, I'm trying to create the puzzle

for you, right? It's a genuine puzzle.

So, you could put it this way. It's a

very simple way to put the question,

when is paradise? Is it in the past like

it is on page two of the Bible? Or is it

in the future? That is Jesus's and the

criminals immediate future later this

afternoon. That's interesting. And the

plot thickens. If you turn from the

beginning of the Bible to the very end,

like the very opposite end to the last

pages to the last chapters of the Bible,

um the garden appears again in these

famous scenes in Revelation chapter 21

and 22, literally the last paragraphs of

the New Testament. And John sees two

things. He sees a new sky and a new land

because the first land and sky have

passed away. There's no longer any sea.

And I saw the holy city, the new

Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from

God made ready as a bride adorned for

her husband. So he sees a city

descending from the heavens. And then as

he goes on, he takes a virtual tour of

that city. And then in chapter 22, he

just starts describing certain details.

And you're like, "Oh, it's the Garden of

Eden. It's the Garden City." Yeah. Yeah,

there's a river of the water of life

coming out of the throne which is at the

center. Oh, and there's the tree of life

right there. How you guys doing?

>> So, the plot thickens, right? Because

this isn't just like the future for

Jesus and the criminal like later this

afternoon. This is like the future

future. This is like the cosmic future.

So, once again, let me ask my question.

When is paradise? Is it in the past or

is it in the future like Jesus and the

criminals future or is it in like the

future future which is like the cosmic

future and just to make the puzzle

complete those are not all of your

options yet. There is one more in uh

Paul's well it's actually not his second

letter it's his third letter to the

Corinthians but we call it two

Corinthians. Ah there's people from the

UK in the room. None of this first or

second Corinthians just one and two

Corinthians right? Isn't that normal?

One. So in two Corinthians anyhow um uh

Paul the apostle um starts talking about

this experience that he had in prayer 14

years ago for when he wrote it and he

says he tells it in a couple ways. He

says, "I" Well, first of all, he says,

"I know this guy in the Messiah." And

it's him. He's going to say so in a few

sentences, but um he says, "I know this

guy in the Messiah who 14 years ago was

caught up to the third heaven." And

whether it was in the body, out of the

body, not really sure. God knows. But

what I know is that this guy, whether in

the body or out of the body, I don't

know. God knows. Was caught up to where

was he caught up to?

>> Paradise.

>> Paradise. Notice uh how for Paul, heaven

and paradise are two ways of talking

about the same place. Yeah. Now, even

though this event was two, excuse me, 14

years in Paul's past, when he had this

experience, it was very much not a past

experience and not a future experience,

but it was paradise

now. Yeah. So, now the plot really

thickens, right? Because let me ask my

question one more time. When is paradise

in the Bible? Is it in the past? Is it

in the future? Or is it in the future

future? Or is it in the present? How you

guys doing?

>> Now, I'm just It's a genuine question.

Look up the word paradise. And here's

what you find. And um I hope that you

just have a deep deep instinct that the

answer to this question is yes.

>> Yeah.

Now, you may not know fully why that's

your instinct for saying that, but I

think that is what we're supposed to

take away from this. Why? Why would I

say that? Well, here's something

interesting. Um, if you go, we were in

the last book of the Bible at the very

last pages. So, let's just uh you can

flip. I'm going to go on a slide uh to

the first paragraph of uh the

Revelation. And we learn something

really important about paradise.

We hear uh an announcement from the Lord

God. Revelation 1:8 who says this, I am

the alpha.

I'm the omega. It's first and last

letters of the Greek alphabet.

I am the one who is

and who was and who is to come, the

Almighty.

I, John, your brother and companion in

the suffering and kingdom and patient

endurance that are ours in Jesus, was on

the island of Popmos because of the word

of God and the testimony of Jesus. And

on the Lord's day, I was in the spirit

and

well, you know what happens next if

you've ever tried to read the

revelation. Uh, he discovers that he is

no longer on the island of Patmos. Yeah.

uh he discovers that he's in the

heavenly temple and he meets a human

figure who's on fire dressed like the

high priest is in the holy place and he

sees like the seven lamp manora lamp and

he sees the smoke and the incense

filling the room but he's not in

Jerusalem in the temple he's like he's

in the heavenly temple and it's Jesus

it's the risen Jesus and what the risen

Jesus starts to say to him is hey you

know um I need you to write some letters

to different churches. And uh the second

church that he writes a letter to is um

to the church of Ephesus. And what he

tells the people of E Ephesus is that

man, if you overcome the obstacles that

are in your way to following me, you

will eat of the tree of life in

paradise.

When is paradise, my friends? [laughter]

Is it past? Is it present? Is it future?

Or is it future? Future. And if the

answer to that is yes, then that in

invokes an even more interesting ques

question which is where is paradise?

Where is John as he's having that

experience? Well, he tells you that he's

on an island of Popmos and then he tells

you that he was in the spirit and then

he starts telling a story about what

happened and he was all of a sudden in

heaven where Jesus is saying it's like

paradise up here. How you guys doing?

Okay, so something's going on here. Um,

apparently Jesus and Paul and the

biblical authors just have a really,

really different way of seeing reality

uh than most of us do and certainly

people uh in our culture.

In the Bible, paradise is apparently a

symbol. It's an image and it can be

described with lots of different kinds

of imagery like temples or mountaintops

or gardens, but it's a way of describing

something that is like fundamental to

how Jesus and the New Testament authors

and the biblical authors saw reality.

And and that imaginative picture of the

world is this.

It's that somehow there is a truest most

foundational most fundamental dimension

of reality that is actually like

undergirling and making all the rest of

reality possible. But that reality

is not perceptible to our five senses

and it's actually not perceivable within

the four dimensions of reality that we

inhabit. Right? height, width, depth,

and then time as we go through those

three dimensions. That this but this is

a reality that is it's actually not even

just that it's real. It's actually more

real than anything else. And the reason

that it's more real than anything else

is because it's not just a place or a

time. It's a person. Are you with me?

>> So, because remember what Jesus said. He

said, "You'll be with me in paradise."

And Jesus talks about those who

overcome, you'll be with me to eat of

the tree of life. So when we're talking

about paradise, what we're really

talking about is a person who is the

eternal now.

A person who is the perpetual present.

And this is core to what how Jesus saw

the world. And since I'm follower of him

and I want to become like him, I really

want to understand how he sees all the

world. So I can try through habit

formation to adopt that way of seeing

the world too. And this might seem so

basic or 101 um to you maybe I don't

know maybe maybe you're not even

learning anything right now in which

case I'm sorry to insult your

intelligence but I'm learning something

right now. So [laughter]

this is so fundamental.

What the biblical authors and what Jesus

is trying to describe is is that at the

center

I can't even use spatial language,

right? Because I I'm a creature that

inhabits four dimensions, right? This is

like somebody who lives on a 2D plane

trying to imagine what a

three-dimensional ball looks like. It's

just like it'll always and only ever

look like a circle cuz you're a little

2D. Are you with me? Maybe that one.

Okay. Yeah. So, it's kind of like that.

So, this is a view of reality that says

there is a beautiful mind and heart at

the source of all being in existence.

And without that outpouring,

others centered love sustaining person

there is not a moment or molecule in our

universe that would even exist in the

first place. And so you can be in the

past, you can be in the present, you can

be in the future or you can be in the

future future. You can be on a Greek

island of Popmos

and all you are is one moment away from

seeing the huckleberries.

>> Yeah.

>> So, how you guys doing?

[applause]

>> The huckleberries are everywhere, my

friends.

In fact, there's actually never been a

moment or molecule that you've ever

encountered in your life that doesn't

have a huckleberry making its existence

possible is what I'm what I'm trying to

say here.

Um, how you doing?

>> Okay,

this is so interesting to me. I forgot

where I was in my notes. So, just just

give me give me a second.

>> [clears throat]

>> So, this also begins to explain um

another set of features in the biblical

story that um never made a lot of sense

to me until I had the huckleberry

experience, which is the answer to the

question of where is paradise, which is

very similar to the answer to the

question of when is paradise. So, we

know that paradise is at least on a

Greek island in Popmos, right? Because

you can be there and have this

experience. Now, it's supposed not to be

a super long talk. So, time does not

permit me to tell you the story of Jacob

in Genesis chapter 28. But if time did

permit me to tell you that story, I

would tell you a story about how this

guy [laughter]

how this guy um Yeah, I'm I'm with you.

I'm I'm going to do it. Um this guy

[laughter]

I was going to do it anyway. I just was.

So, there's this guy um named Jacob and

uh he and his mom just schemed up a plan

to lie and cheat their brother and

father out of um this blessing in this

firstborn inheritance. And so, he has to

flee because his brother said he's going

to murder him. It's a good reason to

flee your home. And so, he leaves where

he was, which is a town named Beer

Shabbah. And he's on his way for Haran.

It's a few hundred miles and you have to

cross a long uninhabited

mostly desolate uh desert region to get

there. So he stops at some place. uh and

he uh has a dream and actually this is

important um to because notice uh when

John talked about being in the spirit

what he's referring to is some mode

of consciousness

some state of consciousness where all of

a sudden John on the Greek island ofos

could be with the cosmic risen Jesus

traversing the universe in the heavenly

temple while also being on the Greek

Greek island of Popmos. You guys with

me?

>> So, isn't it interesting that here's

Jacob in some place between Beera and

Karan and he goes to sleep. Notice the

altered mode of consciousness is the key

here. He goes to sleep and then he has a

dream and in that dream he sees like

he's in a place where heaven and earth

are the same place. They're connected

through a bridge. And what he sees is

the same thing that John saw, a human

figure that he calls uh Yahweh. And what

Yahweh says is, "I am with you." Do you

remember what Jesus said to the

criminal? He said, 'You'll be with me in

paradise. And now here is Yahweh

appearing to a guy who just lied and

cheated his family and is on the run cuz

his brother wants to kill him. And what

Jesus says to this chump is, "I am with

you." And wherever Yahweh is with you is

apparently paradise cuz it's a heaven.

Are you with me here? Yeah. Yeah. And so

he wakes up and he's freaked out and he

says, "This place is the house of God,

Bethl. This is the gate of the skies."

And what's fascinating about this story

is it's not it's not as if Jacob went to

a place that he knew was sacred and that

that somehow made his encounter with God

possible. It's exactly the opposite. Are

you with me?

>> Yeah. It's his encounter with paradise

that makes the space holy. And that's

what he does when he offers it. It's

really interesting. Now, time also does

not permit me to tell a story about

Ezekiel. And I will make this one short

where Ezekiel is exiled in Babylon

sitting in his house with some friends.

And all of a sudden, sitting, as he's

sitting there, the hand of Lord Yahweh

comes upon him, which I'm pretty sure

what he means is that his consciousness

was altered in a very significant way

because all of a sudden he's looking and

he's seeing somebody like what John saw

in the heavenly temple and the one that

uh Jacob saw in that field. It's a human

figure and they're on fire. Yeah. Like

exactly what John saw. And that person

stretched out a hand and grabbed him by

the tit of his hair. It's a Hebrew word,

tit, the lock of your hair. And the

spirit, all of a sudden, that person is

now the spirit. And I'm being lifted up

in between land and sky.

What is that? If if you are in between

land and sky, where are you? Now

remember, where is he? He's in a house.

And now he's in between land and sky.

and he's about to get taken on this

virtual tour of Jerusalem and then he's

going to all of a sudden wake up and

like he's back there in in his house

again. So, let me ask you uh the

question this way. Where is paradise? Is

it on a Greek island pot? Is it some

undesated we don't know spot in between

beer and Karan or is it in Babylon right

in some house in a refugee camp?

>> You should know the answer to this

question. Yes. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah,

that's exactly right. Yeah. [laughter]

So, um really all all humor aside, maybe

um do you see how fundamentally

different Jesus and biblical authors saw

reality than most of us do?

And I notice that the common denominator

in all of these experiences is about

people's states of consciousness.

>> Isn't that interesting?

>> So think about what what our right what

our conscious life is. is and I'm not a,

you know, a psychologist, but I know

enough to know that there is a a mode of

conscious awareness where you and I from

our earliest memories from when we're

children, we exist in this very

oblivious and innocent state. And as we

begin to get hurt and disappointed by

friends and families and by the world

because we're outside of Eden and it's

just a painful, difficult place out

here. All of a sudden, we begin to build

up shields.

We develop coping habits. Yep.

Self-preservation mechanisms. And these

become so wired into the physical

neuronal pathways in our brain, we'd

actually start to imagine the world a

certain way. And we actually it we don't

see the world. we cannot see the world

any other way and this just builds and

this just builds and this just builds

but there are moments when that what uh

one uh Catholic priest father Thomas

Keiting who I've learned a lot about

prayer from he calls this the ego level

consciousness but there is something

that happens when when all of our guards

are down and this especially happens

when we're asleep are you with me right

when we're asleep because you're still

conscious but you're working on a

different your body is working on a

different different level. It's like

it's soul level. It's being level

consciousness. And somehow when you're

in that vulnerable state, human beings

are open to reality in a way that we are

fully guarded against when we're in our

uh ego conscious moments. You guys with

me?

>> And all of a sudden I realized like this

is what the biblical authors are talking

about. They're just using the language

and imagery of gardens and clouds and in

between skies. But what they're really

trying to tell us is that you and I

actually live in like a subversion of

reality and that there is a much fuller

deeper soul level of reality that is

surrounding us. In fact, it makes every

moment and molecule possible in the

first place. Or as the apostle Paul says

to the philosophers uh in Athens, he

says, "God is not very far from any one

of us. In him, you guys know this line.

In him, we what?

>> We live, we move, and we have our being.

Or as he says in his letter to the

Ephesians, he calls God the father the

father who is over all and through all

and in all.

And I used to just think that was like

rhetorical flourish, you know. Um, but

this actually this actually is how they

see reality.

And for one reason or another, through

my habits, through the traditions in

which I was raised and through my own

personal choices, I develop a set of

habits for engaging Jesus and engaging

my faith, primarily through my conscious

mind. Yeah. And you can make a lot of

progress working with your conscious

mind. Um, but what became clear to me

over the last year and a half and in

that parable that I lived on the north

side of Mount Hood was that I was had a

completely underdeveloped

soul

and that the level of my core being who

I really am in my most vulnerable state

like I'm just a baby when it comes to

that and beginning to relate to God on

that deep level and on the level of

reality that is the most true version of

reality that makes our four dimensions

possible in the first place. All of a

sudden, I realized like, oh, I think

that's what prayer is.

>> Oh, I think that's what prayer is about.

Are you with me?

>> And then all of a sudden, I was like, oh

god, I want a lot of that. [laughter]

Like, I want to eat a lot of

huckleberries, if you know what I'm

saying. And so, I just have one more

last story to show you. Um and then I'll

and then I'll conclude. And uh this is

significant and there's so many elements

of the story that maybe I'm sure you

know the story. It's in Luke chapter 9.

It's a story about uh one time when

Jesus who was in a habit of going up to

high places to pray. Yeah. All through

the night. And uh we're told that Jesus

took Peter and John and James with him

up onto a mountain to do what?

>> To pray. Now, as he was praying, just

guess what he started looking like to in

the eyes of the three who were there. He

looked like that guy that Jacob met and

that guy that Ezekiel met and that guy

that John will meet.

His appearance of his face changed. His

clothes became as bright as a flash of

lightning. And then all of a sudden,

Moses and Elijah are there appearing in

glorious splendor, too. They're talking

with Jesus speaking about the Exodus

that he was about to fulfill in

Jerusalem. And then where are they?

Where are they right now? Remember?

They're on a mountain. But then what

comes?

So now they're in heaven. Yeah. So then

they're in heaven and they enter into

this cloud and they hear a voice and

what that voice says is it speaks the

true identity of Jesus. Right? Because

all as they're cruising like down in

Galilee or down in Judea, all of these

people have opinions about Jesus. He's a

great rabbi. He's a prophet. He's John

the Baptist come from the dead, right?

All these people have have ways of

framing who Jesus is. And then somehow

they go up into this mountain with Jesus

and it's as if like the veil is is

opened up and this becomes a heaven on

earth spot. And in those heaven and

earth spots, notice how in every one of

those stories that I showed you, what is

happening is people getting a true, not

just a true vision of reality, what they

get is they see a person like they meet

the person who is reality.

They meet the eternal now and the

perpetual present.

What prayer apparently is is a way of

engaging your whole person

and surrendering the ways that we

manipulate and distort reality in our

consciousness and just surrendering our

whole being

to the eternal now. And the eternal now

is not just an energy [clears throat]

and it's not just a force. It's a

person. It's a beautiful, beautiful mind

who when that mind wanted to communicate

the essence of that mind's very being,

that mind became a human and poured out

his entire life in an act of self-giving

love. And that is the eternal now that

we have the privilege of connecting to

through prayer.

And somehow I just like these pieces

were never put together for me.

um which is why I felt fear and

resignation and guilt. Um but as this

became not just a set of ideas to me but

a set of experiences

is just changing how I see everything

and I I think the goal of living in this

story and of forming new habits of body

and soul and mind and heart is to

actually believe and exist in the world

as if this is really true.

W- which means that there is not a place

that I can go and there is not a moment

of my existence where the eternal now is

not present

>> and where paradise is not present. Now

of course not every day I mean we are

not in the Garden of Eden folks. Let me

just make that right [laughter] very

clear. So I'm dying. Yeah. Uh and so are

you. Um

but

but what is what is death within this

story?

>> Are you with me? Like what what's death?

>> Death is nothing to the one who holds

the keys. Yeah. Of the grave.

And so um I I think this is like this is

this in fact is the key that all of

those earliest Christians had when they

would look at death in the lions right

face in the Roman arenas or being

executed um or being crucified like many

of the apostles were like what is that?

I'll be with you in paradise later

today.

>> Amen. And and what is today when you

have to go to work and face that boss

that you cannot stand and who keeps

withholding that promotion from you

because he knows that you follow Jesus

and he thinks you're crazy. Like what is

what's that?

Today you can be with me in paradise.

Are you with me?

>> Thank you. I'm really feeling this

inspiration

[clears throat] now. Um maybe not in

this room but um I know that in many

especially western Protestant

conservative environments when you start

talking this way um people can get

twitchy [laughter]

and when you start talking about

elevated levels of consciousness right

and experiencing uh the mystical

presence of God. But of first of all,

let me just respond in as hopefully non-

snarky a way as I can. [clears throat]

Uh for someone who's like, "This sounds

like Eastern mysticism or something like

that." Let us just remember where did

the Jesus movement originate. [laughter]

[applause]

It originated in the east. And I really

don't think Jesus was just reciting

Bible verses all night long like on the

mountain. I'm sure that he was reciting

whole psalms and that those psalms were

sending his consciousness traversing the

universe with his father in prayer. Are

you with me? And whatever it is that

happened in the upper room on Pentecost

like it wasn't a Bible study. You know

what I'm saying? [laughter]

[applause and cheering]

And and so and remember I'm a Bible

nerd. Like I have the mug. So like this

isn't like it's not an eitheror. Uh it's

it's very much a both and.

Um so I let me conclude by by saying

this. Um if this is not what prayer and

liturgy and worship is in my as an

individual's life and in our communal

lives, it seems to me um that we have

some re-evaluating to do. And I'm not

trying to say that mountaintop

apocalypse moments are like the norm in

every day. Remember, Paul did say this

was 14 years ago, assuming like this

isn't an every day. But my my hunch, my

deep deep hunch is there are a lot more

huckleberries around than you and I

assume. Are you with me?

And if that's what prayer and liturgy

and worship is alone and together, then

I I want to see more huckleberries

>> and I want to experience them with my

whole my whole self.

[snorts]

>> Come merciful father.

Come Lord Jesus.

Come Holy Spirit.

Help us to see reality as it truly is,

which is you.

We want to enter union with you and to

know your love and your mercy.

We want everyone around us to begin to

taste just a bit of paradise now. We

want to taste paradise now.

>> Have mercy on us.

>> Amen. This was absolutely beautiful. The

paradise promised to the thief on the

cross is the same paradise that's

promised to you and me, Eden. The Bible

as a whole is a circle that ends where

it began. And this understanding of

what, where, and when heaven is actually

allows us to see that we have access to

it even here on earth. It's God's

presence, and we don't have to pass away

to experience it. It's not a place that

we escape to, but the presence of God

that we help to bring to earth by

allowing God to work through us. And

with this in mind, I want to read you

this thoughtprovoking column by Ent

Wright because he ties everything we've

talked about so far into a beautiful

call to action. One of the central

stories of the Bible many people believe

is that there is a heaven and an earth

and that human souls have been exiled

from heaven and are serving out time

here on earth until they can return.

Indeed, for most modern Christians, the

idea of going to heaven when you die is

not simply one belief among others, but

the one that seems to give a point to it

all. But the people who believed in that

kind of heaven when the New Testament

was written were not the early

Christians. They were the middle

platonists. People like Plutarch, a

younger contemporary of St. Paul, who

was a philosopher, biographer, essaist,

and pagan priest in Deli. To understand

what the first followers of Jesus

believed about what happens after death,

we need to read the New Testament in its

own world. The world of Jewish hope, of

Roman imperialism, and of Greek thought.

The followers of the Jesus movement that

grew up in that complex environment saw

heaven and earth, God's space and ours,

if you like, as the twin halves of God's

good creation. Rather than rescuing

people from the latter in order to reach

the former, the creator God would

finally bring heaven and earth together

in a great act of new creation,

completing the original creative purpose

by healing the entire cosmos of its

ancient ills. They believed that God

would then raise his people from the

dead to share in and indeed to share his

stewardship over this rescued and

renewed creation. And they believed all

of this because of Jesus. They believed

that with the resurrection of Jesus,

this new creation had already been

launched. Jesus embodied in himself the

perfect fusion of heaven and earth. In

Jesus, therefore, the ancient Jewish

hope had come true at last. The point

was not for us to go to heaven, but for

the life of heaven to arrive on earth.

Jesus taught his followers to pray, "Thy

kingdom come on earth as it is in

heaven."

From as early as the 3rd century, some

Christian teachers tried to blend this

with types of Platonic belief,

generating the idea of leaving earth and

going to heaven, which became mainstream

by the Middle Ages. But Jesus's first

followers never went that route.

Israel's scriptures had long promised

that God would come back in person to

dwell with his people forever. The early

Christians picked this up. The word

became flesh, declares John 1:14, and

dwelt in our midst. The word for dwelt

means literally tabernacled, pitched his

tent, alluding to the wilderness

tabernacle in the time of Moses and the

temple built by Solomon. Studying the

New Testament historically in its own

world as opposed to squashing and

chopping it to fit with our own

expectations shows that the first

Christians believed not that they would

go to heaven when they died, but that in

Jesus, God had come to live with them.

That was the lens through which they saw

the hope of the world. The book of

Revelation ends not with souls going up

to heaven, but with the new Jerusalem

coming down to earth so that the

dwelling of God is with humans. The

whole creation, declares St. Paul, will

be set free from its slavery to

corruption to enjoy God's intended

freedom. God will then be all in all.

It's hard for us moderns to grasp this.

So many hymns, prayers, and sermons

still speak of us going to heaven, but

it makes historical sense and sheds

light on everything else.

What then was the personal hope for

Jesus's followers? Ultimately,

resurrection, a new and immortal

physical body in God's new creation, but

after death and before that final

reality, a period of blissful rest.

Today, says Jesus, to the brigant

alongside him, you will be with me in

paradise. My desire, says St. Paul,

facing possible execution is to depart

and be with the Messiah, which is far

better. In my father's house, Jesus

assured his followers, are many waiting

rooms. These are not the final

destination. They are the temporary

resting place ahead of the ultimate new

creation. Historical study, reading the

New Testament in its own world, thus

brings surprises that can have an impact

on modern Christianity, too. Perhaps the

most important is a new or rather very

old way of seeing the Christian mission.

If the only point is to save souls from

the wreck of the world so they can leave

and go to heaven, why bother to make

this world a better place? But if God is

going to do for the whole creation what

he did for Jesus in his resurrection to

bring them back here on earth, then

those who have been rescued by the

gospel are called to play a part right

now in the advanced renewal of the

world. God will put the whole world

right. This worldview says and in

justification he puts people right by

the gospel to be part of his putting

right project for the world. Christian

mission includes bringing real advanced

signs of new creation into the present

world in healing and justice and beauty

in celebrating the new creation and

lamenting the continuing pain of the

old. That's the end of the article by

Anti Wright and I found this to be

absolutely insightful. We as believers

are to bring the new creation to the

present world by offering our bodies a

living sacrifice and becoming the temple

of God, the point of contact to those

who wouldn't seek him on their own will.

But at any rate, I pray that this video

has been a blessing to you. And if

you've made it this far, please like

this video, subscribe to Dance Like

David, and leave a comment that says,

"Father, bring heaven to earth through

me." as any interaction with this video

allows our content to reach and help

more [music] people. And may God shine

his face upon you and give you peace.

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